-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Linearity of the Main Game Story Lines
- Thread starter Antar
- Start date
I think you're forgetting that this is still a children's game.
The Smogon faithful (or even the Serebii noobs) garner such a small part of the market that no game will ever be designed for us. Level scaling would actually be easier than you think (just set each trainer to be X levels lower than your highest team member and each gym leader to scale in at X levels higher, then limit you two 3 or 4 areas before progressing to solve any evolution problems) but taking the semblance of linearity out of the game would make them increasingly more challenging and drive away the target market.
Remember when you were 10 and you got your first copy of Pokemon Red? You didn't know how to play; you accidentally skipped Lt. Surge and were frustrated and upset when it wouldn't let you use Fly; you didn't necessarily 'get' all the type match-ups {ghost is bad against psychic gen1, that's why my Kadabra destroyed Agatha amiright?}.
Now that the mechanics of the game have become increasingly more complex they have had to compensate by making how you play it less and less complicated for the people who will buy the most copies. Do you think a 10 year-old buys one cart for wifi and does most of his playthroughs with an emulator? Of course he doesn't, he (well, his parent) buys 3 to 5 Pokemon games each generation.
So, if we can expect anything it will be for gamefreak to "dumb down" the story even more and to base it around 2 mandatory--but hopefully spaced apart--legendary encounters.
The Smogon faithful (or even the Serebii noobs) garner such a small part of the market that no game will ever be designed for us. Level scaling would actually be easier than you think (just set each trainer to be X levels lower than your highest team member and each gym leader to scale in at X levels higher, then limit you two 3 or 4 areas before progressing to solve any evolution problems) but taking the semblance of linearity out of the game would make them increasingly more challenging and drive away the target market.
Remember when you were 10 and you got your first copy of Pokemon Red? You didn't know how to play; you accidentally skipped Lt. Surge and were frustrated and upset when it wouldn't let you use Fly; you didn't necessarily 'get' all the type match-ups {ghost is bad against psychic gen1, that's why my Kadabra destroyed Agatha amiright?}.
Now that the mechanics of the game have become increasingly more complex they have had to compensate by making how you play it less and less complicated for the people who will buy the most copies. Do you think a 10 year-old buys one cart for wifi and does most of his playthroughs with an emulator? Of course he doesn't, he (well, his parent) buys 3 to 5 Pokemon games each generation.
So, if we can expect anything it will be for gamefreak to "dumb down" the story even more and to base it around 2 mandatory--but hopefully spaced apart--legendary encounters.
I agree with a lot of the sentiments here. Pokemon has gotten stale. Yet for GameFreak there is literally no reason to fix 90% of it as it won't affect sales in the slightest. I mean even with all this crap we all bought the DS games anyway despite a lot of RBY fans being 20-somethings.
Fresh worthwhile content would be nice, but I don't see Nintendo doing anything other than the 8 gym formula as its a cash cow. Sure if they did something else it'd probably still heaps, but at this stage they have no reason to try harder. One look at the Gen 5 screens made me realise they aren't going to put in any more effort than they need to. I'd love a beautiful painterly looking Pokemon game, but instead we get archaic 3D rendering and a terrible sprite-scaling effect.
Pokemon games are full of terrible design issues. And yes, the problems I'm talking about do affect their target audience of kids, but kids are tolerant and will put up with the crap as they pretty much have infinite free time. Even the DS games are full of design choices leftover from the GB games for no good reason. For example HM moves were uneraseable in RBY because you could deposit HMs so they did it to prevent you getting stuck. Yet even though you now have a TM/HM pocket they kept the limitation. Similarly does anyone actually use withdraw/deposit on the PC? (it was fast in RSE but its uselessly slow in the DS games). Pokemon games are packed with poor designs that make playing them more of a chore than it should be. The game also has some pretty terrible balance issues as far as currency in concerned. BP and Coins are worth far too little considering how hard they are to get and many items have stupid sale/purchase prices. Just because Max Repel was always 250 steps for 700 doesn't mean it should eternally remain the ripoff that it is. Yet for a kid it doesn't matter as they have all the time in the world to collect BP, but its not balanced by a long shot.
Lastly the games lack variety, as the OP said they've become progressively more linear, and its a "just because" thing, as you don't need to make it linear to have a good story (which they don't have anyway). And you'd think with 493 Pokemon they'd manage to make it so all the trainers, grunts and routes have a nice selection of Pokemon to face to keep things interesting, but no every cave is still full of Geodudes and Zubats. If wild encounters were actually interesting I might not use Super Repel all the time like I do these days.
Fresh worthwhile content would be nice, but I don't see Nintendo doing anything other than the 8 gym formula as its a cash cow. Sure if they did something else it'd probably still heaps, but at this stage they have no reason to try harder. One look at the Gen 5 screens made me realise they aren't going to put in any more effort than they need to. I'd love a beautiful painterly looking Pokemon game, but instead we get archaic 3D rendering and a terrible sprite-scaling effect.
Pokemon games are full of terrible design issues. And yes, the problems I'm talking about do affect their target audience of kids, but kids are tolerant and will put up with the crap as they pretty much have infinite free time. Even the DS games are full of design choices leftover from the GB games for no good reason. For example HM moves were uneraseable in RBY because you could deposit HMs so they did it to prevent you getting stuck. Yet even though you now have a TM/HM pocket they kept the limitation. Similarly does anyone actually use withdraw/deposit on the PC? (it was fast in RSE but its uselessly slow in the DS games). Pokemon games are packed with poor designs that make playing them more of a chore than it should be. The game also has some pretty terrible balance issues as far as currency in concerned. BP and Coins are worth far too little considering how hard they are to get and many items have stupid sale/purchase prices. Just because Max Repel was always 250 steps for 700 doesn't mean it should eternally remain the ripoff that it is. Yet for a kid it doesn't matter as they have all the time in the world to collect BP, but its not balanced by a long shot.
Lastly the games lack variety, as the OP said they've become progressively more linear, and its a "just because" thing, as you don't need to make it linear to have a good story (which they don't have anyway). And you'd think with 493 Pokemon they'd manage to make it so all the trainers, grunts and routes have a nice selection of Pokemon to face to keep things interesting, but no every cave is still full of Geodudes and Zubats. If wild encounters were actually interesting I might not use Super Repel all the time like I do these days.
I never bought or had my own copy or finished a copy that wasn't mine of Gen I. Maybe it was because I was 1-3 years old? I am 15 and I don't see a problem with Pokemon. I like the stories and I deal with the less variety. I hate the hidden items and caves. The one thing that needs to be fixed is maze issues. Mt. Coronet, for example, has too many paths and is too maze-y for my liking... especially when you have to go back up after the plot to get the Stone(?) Plate. With the god of pokemon and the makers of the world in play, Gen V should be stepping backwards. I think that if they try to trump Arceus, than game over. Make a few simple legendaries, mandatory or not, and go provide us a path. Give us an entertaining plot. IMO, pokemon is too small a game to have a significant plot. In a game like FFXII, you could plug away many hours because the game was vast, hard, and long. Pokemon is kind of short and shouldn't have anything too significant. Make Gen V like FFXII... big land, many subquests to detract the player, and either a very good and signficant plot or a smaller one that is mildly entertaining.
That, right there, is the crux of the issue, alas. But it would be possible for it to be overcome, and I can think of a good reason for NindFreak to do it.
I really wonder just what the demographic breakdown of Pokemon players is. Isn't it true that at this year's VGC, the turnout for the 13+ bracket was about twice that as for the <13?
It would be quite natural for the games to age with the audience (Nintendo could keep making Mystery Dungeon and Ranger for the younger folks) and, quite frankly, keep us playing and buying their games. If they started going after the 18-35 demographic, there's one big advantage: WE HAVE MONEY AND DON'T NEED TO ASK OUR PARENTS.
Turning to HOW this could get done, Gameplay is one issue, and I really think they should move to an Active Time Battle format at some point (look at FFIV--really not that difficult to pick up, especially if you use the "Wait" variant). Beyond that, I'd say the gameplay is as mature as you want it to be, what with the depth inherent in EVs, IVs and breeding.
The maturity of the story is another issue, and it's fluctuated over the years. DPP did have Pokemon torture, but consider Colosseum and XD (the former, especially): set in a post-apocalyptic wasteland (by my interpretation) where pokemon stealing actually happens (and is condoned!), and criminal gangs roam the earth. And all that to say nothing of the disturbed and violent Shadow Pokemon, who can only be "purified" through a long and tiring process of, essentially, Pokemon therapy.
Honestly, I think what's holding the games back is the anime. While the maturity of the anime does indeed fluctuate, with Various movies had Pokemon death (and not just implied, and not just the kind that tears bring back to life), the bottom line is that animation in the US (anime in particular) suffers from what TV Tropes calls "The Animation Ghetto," where anything with cartoons is assumed to be for kids (the flip side, of course, is "All Anime is Naughty Tentacles," which doesn't help the cause, either), so I think we're kinda screwed, there...
I realize I'm kinda rambling, and where I guess I'm landing on it is this: if the video games existed alone, I think NintendFreak would let the games age and mature, as they would probably be rewarded with MORE sales, not fewer. However, the anime is holding it back, and considering that Nintendo makes probably an equivalent amount on merchandising as they do on the main series video games, I think we're hosed, at least as long as Anime in the US is perceived as only for kids and sex perverts.
Hmmm... well everything I wanted to say on this matter has pretty much already been said so I'll just mention that the protagonists of Black/White appear to be in their late teens so lets all have hope!
On a side note they should do away with "routes". Why does the pokemon world only exist within a certain proximity of roads? They should do like the Zelda games have been doing since the SNES and let us wander the countryside and wilderness a bit. Just an idea, gives it more of an "adventure" feel and adds a bit more realism.
On a side note they should do away with "routes". Why does the pokemon world only exist within a certain proximity of roads? They should do like the Zelda games have been doing since the SNES and let us wander the countryside and wilderness a bit. Just an idea, gives it more of an "adventure" feel and adds a bit more realism.
Dude, you were ten and you dealt with it and you thought it was all awesome in the end. Since when did something "for kids" also mean something "boring"? Like seriously, children's entertainment that anyone can enjoy these days is when they make a horribly crappy animated movie that then has equally crappy pop culture references so that "the adults love it, too." Seriously, entertainment "for adults" doesn't need to be "complex" and "mature" and entertainment "for kids" doesn't need to be "simple" and "whatever the noncondescending antonym of mature is". If you want everybody to enjoy what you're doing, it needs to be "good", which Nintendo's lacking on. Pokemon wouldn't sell half as well if the games industry didn't make older game obsolete every five years and have a huge boner for what are ultimately useless things like THREE DEE. Pokemon Red is an old game? The Little Prince is an old children's book that basically everyone loves, and it's three times as old and new enough to be a "modern classic".
I'm not gonna rant about this, so I'm just gonna link to a much longer rant than I could ever write that covers the core problem here
First off, when I was 10, I was bad at Pokemon. Sure I had a grasp of the type match-ups but I ignored stats and movepools as erroneous. I thought Sword's Dance was a waste of a turn, "why would I need one stronger attack when two regular attacks will get same job done." If some adult had ever bothered to play with me and didn't decide to let me win: I wouldn't have.
If it weren't for the game being in conjunction with the show and the trading cards I wouldn't have become involved with it to anywhere NEAR the degree I did. I also played Earthworm Jim and watched The Tick, of which I have seen neither hide nor hair in near on 10 years. Your article has that right, also it was singularly unrelated to the issue of "game complexity." The ONLY mention of the games themselves was :
You cannot possibly try to deny that the game's mechanics have become incredibly more complex since the first generation. With that added complexity there needs to be some kind of change within the game so that it stays simple enough for these 10 year old children to keep playing. The easiest, and probably best, way to do this is to make the game more story driven. So that children who do not have the patience for grinding--and they don't--can still "beat" the game and progress through the Elite 4.
That, in a nutshell, is the reason of increased game linearity.
If they want to sell Mystery Dungeon to kids, they have...problems. I mean, not only is it a lot like http://www.NetHack (with difficulty to match!), but there's a lot of scary-ass stuff in Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky (I'm pretty sure the main characters are forced to contemplate suicide at one point).
Otherwise, point taken...sort of. I mean, the appeal of Pokemon has always been that there's something in it for gamers of all ages and skill levels. After all, "anything works in-game", but only a top-tier team is going to see any real success at the Battle Frontier.
talking about stuff repeating itself...
pidgey>hoothoot>taillow>starly lines
ratatta>sentret>zigzagoon>bidoof lines
caterpie/weedle>spinarak?(lol)>wurmple lines
Why do we even need 4 bird lines 4 rat lines and 4 bug lines i mean come on if you want to give people a bird stuff taillows or pidgeys at the beggining of the game and BE DONE WITH IT seriously, i am ok with the pseudo-legendary and i guess starters are ok too but come on people this is just getting stupid, i just hope taht if they make another one of this evolutionary lines they don´t show the pokemon until the game is released so that i still want to buy it...
pidgey>hoothoot>taillow>starly lines
ratatta>sentret>zigzagoon>bidoof lines
caterpie/weedle>spinarak?(lol)>wurmple lines
Why do we even need 4 bird lines 4 rat lines and 4 bug lines i mean come on if you want to give people a bird stuff taillows or pidgeys at the beggining of the game and BE DONE WITH IT seriously, i am ok with the pseudo-legendary and i guess starters are ok too but come on people this is just getting stupid, i just hope taht if they make another one of this evolutionary lines they don´t show the pokemon until the game is released so that i still want to buy it...
Hmmmm well hopefully the age of the trainers wil have some bearing on ability to tell a more mature story. Yes pokemon is geared towards kids, but kids are not that naive nowadays. Its not like anyone is proposing the story revolves around a group of baddies trying to harvest souls/bodies for a legendary pokemon with a mass forced suicide or something. Just get rid of the excessive sugarcoating.
One of the cool things that I've only just realised on my run through of HG is just how much they draw parallels between Johto and the first game. From fighting Red/Having Prof Oak follow on your case/the ressurection of team rocket - everything in Heartgold follows on from the first game.
All the subsequent games ignore the fact that you've changed the world in the previous ones. There's no more team rocket, no talk of the previous protagonists, nothing. Aside from being a useful marketting gimmick, why not have a persistant storyline? Sure, you couldn't bring back team rocket every single game, but you could bring back the detective from Platinum, or maybe make your rival become a gym leader/ one of the elite four?
All the subsequent games ignore the fact that you've changed the world in the previous ones. There's no more team rocket, no talk of the previous protagonists, nothing. Aside from being a useful marketting gimmick, why not have a persistant storyline? Sure, you couldn't bring back team rocket every single game, but you could bring back the detective from Platinum, or maybe make your rival become a gym leader/ one of the elite four?
one little fact :
despite of the shitty storyline, you guys keep buying it.
despite of the shitty storyline, you guys keep buying it.
On the topic of the ability to face gym leaders in varying orders in the older games, the first question that comes to mind is: who cares? I can't think of many situations where I have faced the gym leader's out of order simply because of the level scaling or in a lot of situations, it was simply more convenient.
Sure, RBY had more options for your orders of Gym Leaders, Platinum was still a much more solid game. Improved mechanics, a storyline that makes any of the others look even worse. (Sure, Platinum is far from a god-tier storyline, but it was a step in the right direction.)
Only thing about it is. I dislike the methods used to keep us in line. HMs need to go, or in someway change. I'm sick of using useless attacks taking up slots.
Sure, RBY had more options for your orders of Gym Leaders, Platinum was still a much more solid game. Improved mechanics, a storyline that makes any of the others look even worse. (Sure, Platinum is far from a god-tier storyline, but it was a step in the right direction.)
Only thing about it is. I dislike the methods used to keep us in line. HMs need to go, or in someway change. I'm sick of using useless attacks taking up slots.
It would be good if teh attacks were actually useful. Rock Climb would be great if it were Rock Type, Strength could easily be Fighting. Cut and Rock Smash need to be more powerful and maybe even some new effect to make them interesting. Surf and Waterfall are fine, and Fly is decent in-game.
If Orre had eight gyms, they would be:
Phenac City [where Pregym was] (water)
Agate Village [Relic Forest] (grass)
Pyrite Town [reopen Pyrite Cave] (along the lines of rock)
Gateon Port [Lighthouse] (maybe electric)
Former Cipher Lab (probably steel)
Former Key Lair (poison)
Where the S.S. Libra was (probably ground or fire)
Former Snagem Hideout (maybe psychic or flying)
Not necessarily in that order.
And the Victory Road/league would be in Citadark Isle.
Talk about "eight gyms" being a cash cow!
Phenac City [where Pregym was] (water)
Agate Village [Relic Forest] (grass)
Pyrite Town [reopen Pyrite Cave] (along the lines of rock)
Gateon Port [Lighthouse] (maybe electric)
Former Cipher Lab (probably steel)
Former Key Lair (poison)
Where the S.S. Libra was (probably ground or fire)
Former Snagem Hideout (maybe psychic or flying)
Not necessarily in that order.
And the Victory Road/league would be in Citadark Isle.
Talk about "eight gyms" being a cash cow!
Strength not being Fighting always seemed a little odd to me. But yes, I think that if they do keep around things like Cut, they should beef up the power a tad. I'm perfectly fine with having say...Around a 70ish BP Cut on something being leveled early on like a Beedrill. The water HMs (Sans Whirlpool/Dive) are quite fine. They should be used as an example to how HMs should work, abeilt the other HMs should be a tad weaker. After all, we wouldn't want to just hand over some really powerful moves to tack onto everyone.
The storyline was betetr int he early games when it wasn't "only you can save the world" and like everything depended on you. You were a simple kid who either went to write up an electronic book or went to deliver an egg, yet got caught up, beat some gyms, took down a section of an evil gang and it was over. But Gen3/4 had too sophisticated a storyline which didn't let you be you.
Considering the kinds of things you can find on the Pokewalker before you even reach Violet City, I wouldn't exactly consider HGSS to be a paragon of gameplay balance.
Well theoretically you can unlock all the Pokewalker courses before Violet City, I just expect most people are going to play the game relatively heavily at least until they get all 16 badges.
Also something I posted elsewhere;
Also something I posted elsewhere;
So basically GameFreak has no intention of doing anything creative with Pokemon. At least not as a mainline title.TSPhoenix said:
