Linoone (QC 3/3)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Barbeller, Jun 8, 2012.

  1. Barbeller

    Barbeller

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    [overview]
    -Bad defences
    -Near impossible to stop once it gets set up
    -Hard to get set up
    -Choice Band is a good revenge killer/general annoyer with switcheroo
    -ExtremeSpeed is great priority move, and Linoone overall can beat ghosts, setting it apart from other Belly Drum users
    -Belly Drum is great, especially with Sitrus Berry
    -Fine Example of a late game sweeper

    [SET]
    name: Belly Drum
    move 1: Belly Drum
    move 2: ExtremeSpeed
    move 3: Seed Bomb
    move 4: Return / Shadow Claw
    item: Sitrus Berry
    ability: Pickup
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 172 HP/ 252 Atk/ 40 Def / 44 SDef

    [SET COMMENTS]
    -At +6 OHKOes the majority of the tier
    -2HKOes everything that it doesn’t OHKO, meaning only steels can safely switch into it, if they predict it right
    -1048 base attack after belly drum
    -Seed Bomb allows it to beat Quagsire, which would otherwise wall it. Also provides for a small amount of backbone against probopass and bastiodon, hitting them for neutral damage.
    -Shadow Claw OHKOes all the ghosts in the tier, and prevents them from walling it
    -ExtremeSpeed is the preferable move, getting STAB and +2 priority, and OHKOing more or less everything that doesn’t resist it
    -Sitrus Berry allows it to get a larger chance to set up, meaning it can set up on anything that does less than 75% damage, rather than just 50%.
    -Can set up on many of the weaker attackers in NU
    -Can shred apart weather teams if it gets a free turn to set up
    -Return hits Duosion, Exeggutor, Lickilicky, Vigoroth, Garbodor, Weezing, Amoonguss for a KO, while only missing a KO on Misdreavus and Drifblim.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    -EV Spread Maximises bulk, meaning it can set up more often as more moves don't KO or do enough damage to stop it from setting up. It is normally used most in random circumstanses, as Linoone might be worn down by other attacks.
    -Pickup is used because although generally useless, it could be used in a very weird circumstance. Gluttony would do nothing, as sitrus berry activates at 50% anyway
    -Can use a faster spread so it can outspeed all the ghosts in the tier, being Jolly with 40 HP/ 252 Atk/ 216 Spe to outrun Haunter. This spread doesn’t have nearly as much bulk and unfortunately the power loss means it can’t guarantee a 2HKO on Tangela (even with Stealth Rock), which is a much larger threat in the tier. If you are using a spiker and aren’t worried about a loss in bulk (which could mean it can’t set up) then using this spread would be better.
    -Much appreciates Dual Screen support, as it significantly increases the chances of managing to set up.
    -Skuntank is great for it, as it can take Toxic Spikes and Pursuit any ghosts wanting to annoy Linoone due to their immunity to ExtremeSpeed.
    -Likes to have teammates that can break any focus sashes/sturdies, such as Golem, who can set up SR and can help beat the rare steel type
    -Often needs to come in after a KO, as it is hard to get in and then proceed to set up.
    -Rapid spin support is useful, as it again makes it easier to set up.
    -Can also use Silk Scarf, which gives ExtremeSpeed a large power boost. It does make it much harder to set up though.
    -Lum Berry means it can set-up on Scalds, Toxics, WoWs and it means it's sweep isn't stopped.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Switcheroo
    move 2: ExtremeSpeed
    move 3: Seed Bomb
    move 4: Shadow Claw
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP/ 252 Atk/ 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    -Revenge killer
    -Should not be used as a sweeper, because then it would fail
    -People will never switch out on it, due to the fear of it belly drumming
    -Kills any offensive poke with less than 50% HP [Insert Calcs]
    -It can be used in the place of bulky pokemon to stop the opponent’s offense, therefore keeping the momentum in the team
    -Seed Bomb and Shadow Claw are fillers, can be to OHKO the rare quagsire, as well as any ghosts (but they are hard to predict)
    -Switheroo allows it to break apart a good stall team by crippling one of their members

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    -EVs let it outspeed base 80s, especially misdreavus and unboosted drifblim. Adding any more speed would be useless, so putting it in HP is more useful.
    -Could use Belly Drum over one of the attacking moves, however it is very unlikely that you would get it up
    -It’s more of a supporting pokemon than an offensive pokemon, being an ideal revenge killer for teams with a need to keep up momentum
    -You could use Rock Smash if your team is very weak to bastiodon/probopass
    -You might be able to run return over Shadow Claw if your team has a reliable pursuiter, giving it a move with a higher base power so it can KO slower threats, or threats that try to switch into it after they have realised it's CB, not BD. Things it allows to do is guarantee a 2HKO on Exeggutor, and guarantee an OHKO on Flareon (after SR), as well as lots of other specially bulky slow pokemon.
    -Like the other set, it could use Jolly with more Speed but that would mean it wouldn’t be such an effective revenge killer.

    [Other Options]
    -Has a wide variety of bordering useless moves
    -Flail could be used if you run the faster belly drum set, as you’ve got a lack of HP in Belly Drum
    -Subs might be able to go well with flail, and it means other linoone can’t KO it if they win the speed tie/outspeed anyway
    -Hone Claws and Work Up are generally inferior moves, as they won’t get it to +6, meaning that it can’t sweep properly. The only reason to use Work Up is so you could trick in something and tentatively poke it with a hidden power, as due to Linoone’s horrendous Special Attack, it won’t do much.
    -It could use Heat Rock and Sunny Day on a sun team, just for surprise factor
    -Despite an ok stalling movepool, it can’t use it because it has weak defences.
    -Rock Smash is probably its best other option, allowing it to OHKO Bastiodon and Probopass.

    [Checks and Counters]
    -Hitting it hard before it can set up
    -Bastiodon, Probopass, and a bit less Lairon can all be a pain for it, because it can’t get past them if they come in on a ExtremeSpeed/Shadow Claw, or if they come in after something’s been killed. They lose to Rock Smash, but they wall the choice set.
    -Faster taunters, such as Skuntank, who outspeed Adamant Linoone, and can stop Dual Screen support from getting up
    -Bulky steels can take its attack sometimes, however they are weak to rock smash, and normally can’t switch in, only revenge/phaze it out.
    -If it is phazed out then it can’t normally set up Belly Drum again
    -Sturdy users/Focus Sash that aren’t broken are one of the best options to revenge it, especially Kadabra as it has Magic Guard
    -Wormadom-S is the most reliable counter, but its garbage otherwise, and needs to toxic stall it
    -Tangela, although it can't switch in, is one of the best checks, as it can Sleep Powder then recover any HP lost with Giga Drain, which will KO before it wakes up.
    -Ghosts can be a pain for it, especially Haunter/Drifbim as they can outspeed the slower sets and KO.
    -Regirock is a strong choice, as it can wall a Seed Bomb and retaliate, especially if it has low HP.
  2. SuperJOCKE

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    Remove the ability tag altogether on both sets. Also, change the name from Belly Drum Sweeper to just Belly Drum. This will be stressed during GP anyways.

    I would also either slash or mention Silk Scarf. Just mention it somewhere, AC imo.
  3. Barbeller

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    Done. I assume by ability tags you mean the "Ability:Pickup"?
  4. TrollFreak

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    [​IMG]

    and

    [​IMG]

    Forgot to mention its because Seed Bomb wrecks Quagsire, a Pokemon Linoone can't afford to not keep in check!

    Other than that, great work, especially it being your 1st analysis. I'm glad my friends are getting into C&C!
  5. breh

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    shadow claw is relevant; I believe it's just rock smash that should be ACed (or OOed) or something.

    Shadow Claw allows you to OHKO misdreavus. Honestly, Bastiodon and Probopass are less scary than Misdreavus, which can actually OHKO you with HP fighting (with just max HP, it isn't OHKOed and needs SR for a chance for that to occur); Bastiodon can at best roar you out (you can BD again, too) and Probopass can at best do about 50% with max SpA Flash Cannon. Seed Bomb is relevant because Golem and Regirock exist and are veritable threats.
  6. Endorfins

    Endorfins Your Worst Nightmare
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    As a item choice for the Belly Drum set, I've found Lum Berry to be an excellent option since it lets Linoone easily setup on Toxic users, weak Scalds, random hax like Flame Body. Personally, I think it increases Linoones setup opportunities just as much as Sitrus.
  7. sandshrewz

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    Might want to mention how Belly Drum Linoone can murder some weather teams as Volbeat cannot Encore Linoone into Belly Drum due to ExtremeSpeed's +2 priority. Quite a few weather teams can't handle a +6 Linoone. Regirock works as a check if you're desperate, as it survives +6 Seed Bomb
  8. Django

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    Overview:

    • Mention Belly Drum + Gluttony explicitly, along with Extremespeed. These are what sets Linoone apart from other Belly Drum Pokemon.
    For the Belly Drum set:

    • Actually explain the EV spread rather than just it "maximises bulk". What does it allow Linoone to set up on? What advantages does it have over a simple set?
    • Mention Skuntank in AC; its a freat teammate to absorb Toxic Spikes and Pursuit trap Ghost-types, making Linoones life a lot easier.
    • Remove the Rock Smash slash next to Seed Bomb. Beating Bastiodon and Probopass (who are still hurt by Seed Bomb) is not worth losing to Regirock and Quagsire.
    • I am unsure about slashing Rock Smash here as well. I'll let someone else on QC make the call on this but I don't think it should be slashed, just mentioned in AC.
    • What Sandshrewz said, mention how it destroys weather teams if it gets a free turn
    • What Endorfins said, put Lum Berry in AC.
    Choice Band:

    • Is there any reason for the 16 HP EVs? If not just put them into Speed.
    • Get rid of Dig mention, replace it with Rock Smash.
    • Find something that Linoone can revenge kill with Return that it cannot with Extremespeed.
    • Move the mention of Jolly from OO to AC of this set, that is where it should be.
    Checks and Counters:

    • Mention Tangela, since it can easily take a boosted Extremespeed, switch out, then take another one. Or it can just put Linoone to sleep and beat it with Giga Drain. It also walls CB outside of Switcheroo
    • Give Haunter and Drifblim a mention, as they are dangerous to the slower sets / sets without Shadow Claw
    • Regirock.
    If I think of anything else I'll mention it, but good work for your first skeleton.
  9. Steamroll

    Steamroll resident PS fascist
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    Seed Bomb is 100% needed, I don't really like the idea of Rock Smash overall since it's only for people paranoid about Probopass and Bastiodon (who can't do shit anyways besides roar or twave), and it does less damage to Regirock (3hko with Rock Smash compared to a clean 2hko with Seed Bomb against 252/4 neutral). Meaning Regirock can only come in to revenge unless they're insane and go 252/252+.

    Implement Djangoooooooooo's changes other than the Rock Smash slash.
  10. Barbeller

    Barbeller

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    Done as many as I can now, I'll do the rest asap.

    EDIT:
    Well, Gluttony doesn't actually activate Sitrus Berry any earlier, and Pickup is the ability you should use, because it's not completely useless, as Gluttony is.




    Not really, but there's not really any reason to put them in Speed either, and it might help in a random circumstance. I might see if there is anything that an extra 16 Speed EVs outspeeds.
    EDIT: Actually, I guess it lets you speed tie with other neutral base 100s. I'll add them to speed.

    Thanks :D

    I'm not really sure what this means, sorry. I'll try to ask you on IRC. Also, technically, Rock Smash is more useful than Shadow Claw. If my calcs are correct, then Seed Bomb OHKOes all the ghosts except for Drifblim, who is 2HKOed anyway. Rock Smash allows it to OHKO both Probopass and Bastiodon. But I guess there's the fact they can't do anything back.
    EDIT: Oh, Misdreavus isn't OHKOed then. I'll move Rock Smash to AC.
  11. SuperJOCKE

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    There is absolutely no reason to mention Gluttony except maybe in a Unreleased section. As Gluttony only serves a purpose for the pinch Berries and not Sitrus Berry or Lum Berry, it's not needed.

    Pick Up does nothing in a battle and is therefore as useless. That's why I told you to remove the ability tags. Quick Feet can't be used with ExtremeSpeed so that's not an option either.

    You don't need to talk about the abilities at all, unless an Unreleased section is added.

    EDIT: Alright, talked to you on IRC, so add Pick Up to the Belly Drum set again. It's not much, but it's still the more useful ability.
  12. Barbeller

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    In this generation it means that it can regenerate items if their stolen by the opponent (by bug bite or pluck). It is on the verge of useless, but it's better than gluttony. I'm not sure if it's worth saying to use it though.
  13. Django

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    OH right I was stuck in Gen 4 with Salac Linoone.

    Pick Up actually lets you "Pick Up" any one time use items used by the opponent, so is relatively useful.
  14. DTC

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    Slash Return with Shadow Claw on the first set. Return allows you to do a lot more damage against Pokemon such as Musharna, Duosion, Exeggutor, Lickilicky, Vigoroth, Garbodor, Weezing, Amoonguss, etc. (Without Return, a lot of these kills are a lot harder to achieve or impossible. Musharna isn't a kill but it's pretty close) and you do a lot of damage to Haunter with Seed Bomb anyways. Missing out on Missy sucks, but you can beat NP Missy and there's always Pokemon such as Skuntank to Pursuit kill it.

    Also, in my opinion Rock Smash should be moved to OO. All it hits is Bastiodon and Probopass and you do a lot less damage against more threatening stuff such as Golem, Regirock, and Quagsire. Probopass can't really do much back and Bastiodon can only Roar you out.
  15. Barbeller

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    I'm not actually particularly sure if Shadow Claw should be a main slash. You only manage to KO Drifblim and Misdreavus with it (a combined usage of ~15%), wheras Return hits all that you listed. Bastiodon and Probopass manage to get a combined usage of ~9%, which I guess is pretty bad. I'll move Rock Smash to OO, at least for now.
  16. DTC

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    Hmm, yeah, Return should be the primary slash. Speaking of slashes, make sure to put a space in-between them.

    This looks good. Good job; I hope to see you more in different NU sections. QC Approve 1/3
  17. Django

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    I would like to see explanation of the Belly Drum EV set. "Random situations" is not really good enough for an analysis. If the EV spread allows Linoone to set up on extra Pokemon, or give it more opportunities to do so, then mention and explain them. If not, then a simple spread should be used.

    Once that is explained I'll approve this.
  18. MMF

    MMF Give me the strength to part this sea

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    I wouldn't mind seeing a mention of Double Edge/Return on the CB Set. DE actually hits very hard and is a nice spam move to weaken bulkier Pokemon so something else can come in and clean up the wreckage. (something like Samurott, Tauros) I've used this set a lot and I never found myself using Shadow Claw. I either spammed DE early game and swept with Espeed or I just spammed Espeed against offensive teams. Seed Bomb is necessary because of Quagsire in my opinion but other than that its kind of a filler move.
  19. NatGeo

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    Honestly, I would like to see a mention of Jolly 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe in the AC of the Belly Drum set. That outspeeds Haunter, who otherwise can be annoying thanks to shenanigans with SubDisable or neutering you with the rarer SubWisp set (which neuters you if you don't have Lum Berry). Really mention the tradeoffs for that Speed though, specifically the loss of power going from Adamant to Jolly as well as the loss of bulk. Sitrus helps a bit for that but not much, which is why is should stay in AC.
  20. Barbeller

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    I did actually mention that (except with 36 HP EVs instead of 40 because I'm an idiot) in AC.

    Also, sorry I can't find something that the EVs let it take. I'm sure there was something, but I forgot it and now my calcs are broken .-.
  21. Husky

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    Wasn't Salac Berry released with BW2? Shouldn't it be main option on the Belly Drum set then?
  22. FLCL

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    The Belly Drum set really appreciates the ability to set up on a huge amount of the metagame with Sitrus Berry. I can't see Salac Berry being very effective in NU since there are only two Ghost-types that are usually fast enough to outrun Bulky Linoone, and they aren't used that much right now due to the popularity of Golurk.

    As for Linoone itself, I felt that its effectiveness was hit really hard by BW2. The high usage of Alomomola and Amoonguss—both of which can take a boosted ExtremeSpeed—really hurt it's sweeping capabilites. What's possibly even more dangerous is the introduction of Ditto, who can revenge kill or force out Linoone with ease and proceed to start a counter-sweep. The metagame has also become more offensively oriented, meaning Linoone will be struggling to find set-up opportunities. Common walls all have a way of detering Linoone's sweep, whether it be Sporing it (Amoonguss), Toxic (Alomomola), or tanking a hit and striking back hard (Probopass).
  23. breh

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    Agreeing; I've seen Salac in action and it's not convincing in the slightest. An OO mention is good enough ("if you have a paranoid fear of Lampent and Misdreavus (Haunter's not too relevant now, is it?), use Salac") and Sitrus should stay the main item.

    Also agreeing that Linoone's usefulness has taken a toll, but at least a few mons that used to give it trouble are gone. In fact, Substitute should probably be tested on BP - last ditch attempts to take Linoone down through status are stopped cold by Substitute. Lampent (and Klang, but that's not very relevant given that Shadow Claw is just as useless) is now the sole common (is it still common?) resistor of Seed Bomb / Extremespeed.
  24. shnen

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    yeah while linoone really isn't that good atm this is definitely the best way to use it and this has been languishing here for a while so
    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  25. Raseri

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    Barbeller hasnt been on in 2 weeks.

    [qc]3/3[/qc] linoone is still ok though

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