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Little Cup Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by macle, Oct 18, 2012.

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  1. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    I actually wholeheartedly agree with everything Hawkstar said. Not only is Snover excellent at hard countering Sand, it's a frightening sweeper and solid revenge killer as well. As most of you probably know, Grass / Ice coverage is superb offensively, and goes unresisted in pretty much all of the top 20 Pokemon usage wise. Snover's high powered, perfectly accurate Blizzard literally wrecks teams that don't carry faster Fighting-types or Pokemon that resist it, and can hit a lot of top tier threats not only super effectively but also for an OHKO / 2HKO. Not only because it counters sand, but also, because of its speed, power, coverage, and ability to sweep a majority of the metagame with little support, I agree that Snover is S material.
  2. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Snover is an amazing Pokemon, don't get me wrong but it's not S-rank material. It is a great late game sweeper even against weatherless teams, but it requires support in terms of rapid spin and is walled pretty easily by steels or fires depending on it's Hidden Power. Since it can only perform as a cleaner with a scarf, if you predict well against it you can easily force it out so it isn't hard to wear down. It's eviolite set is more of a one-time surprise thing that can maybe get it a surprise kill but at the end of the day, it's much less effective once the opponent realises that it's slow.

    However, I completely agree with Drilbur being A-rank. Sand just isn't that effective in the metagame as if the opponent has a Snover you have a massive team disadvantage. Drilbur requires way too much support to be able to sweep well imo. It needs Hippo, a Snover counter, and a bulky water/grass counter to do it's job well and it's checks and counters are all really common which dents its effectiveness.
  3. Shouting

    Shouting

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    Snover is far from S-tier. It is very poor at revenge killing, very easy to force out (seriously protect ruins Snover, more so than most other scarfers because it is Stealth Rock weak.) is incredibly predictable and standard, and is used JUST to remove sand. If Hippo/Sand wasn't in LC, I guarantee you that no one would use Scarf Snover as much as they do now, it's use is for removing Sand, it isn't good at revenge killing, it isn't a good check to water types, and it isn't great at late game sweeping either.
  4. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude based wooper #dealwithit
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    Nominating Wynaut for C-tier. with Shadowtag stopping the opponent from switching out and Counter and Mirror Coat to boot, Wynaut can revenge kill a lot of choice-locked Pokémon like Scarf Snover. Encore is very useful because locking an opponent into a status move like Stealth Rock can create east set up opportunities for your other Pokémon. With Custap Berry being released Wynaut can now run Destiny Bond with decent success, perhaps letting it remove a threat from the game when Wynaut is at low health. However, Wynaut will find it very hard switching in to the top threats in the tier because it can get 2hko'd if its not careful. Added on to the fact that Wynaut lacks recovery it can be very easy to Ko later on in the match when it is worn down. Also trapping pokemon isn't really essential in Little Cup and often times you could find a better use of the teamslot for something more useful like hazard support or rapid spin support. Besides Little Cup as a bunch of viable Choice Scarfers and fast Pokémon so Wynauts revenge killing capabilities are easily replaced.
  5. The Jaiho

    The Jaiho

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    I don't actually play Lc, but by looking at the viabilities i noticed a distinct lack of meowth in any ranking.Maybe I am missing something, but if not it needs to be placed :).
  6. cxinlee

    cxinlee

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    Nominating meowth for D-class. It's ability, Technician, not only gives Fake out a Base Power of 90 (including STAB), but it also powers up Bite and Covet ( Which can be used effectively with normal gem). However, meowth's mediocre attack stat does not back it up, and it's defenses aren't any better. Overall, a fast lead, but I feel that its use doesn't go any further from that, and faces a lot of competition from mienfoo and hippopotas, both that can carry more than one role.
    Some calculations:
    Show Hide
    Defensively:
    76 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meowth: 18-24 (94.73 - 126.31%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO
    196 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meowth: 12-14 (63.15 - 73.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Meowth: 15-18 (78.94 - 94.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Offensively:
    236 Atk Technician Meowth Bite vs. 76 HP / 132+ Def Eviolite Wynaut: 10-12 (37.03 - 44.44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    236 Atk Meowth Return vs. 132 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 4.05% chance to 3HKO
    236 Atk Normal Gem Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 16-21 (84.21 - 110.52%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
  7. Nebuchadnezzar

    Nebuchadnezzar

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    Nominating Solosis to be moved from E to D-class. It has the same Special Attack as Abra and is much more bulky. The only drawback is its abysmal Speed. This, however, is easily mitigated by using Trick Room, which can help Solosis tear apart faster, less bulky opponents. However, it should only be used on Trick Room teams or as a solitary mini-sweeper, which makes it gimmicky, but somewhat viable.
  8. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    240SpAtk Analytic lvl 5 Elgyem (+SAtk) Psychic vs 132HP/100SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Hippopotas (Neutral): 52% - 64% (13 - 16 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    240SpAtk lvl 5 Solosis (+SAtk) Psychic vs 132HP/100SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Hippopotas (Neutral): 48% - 60% (12 - 15 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 27% chance to 2HKO.

    240SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Solosis (+SAtk) Psychic vs 132HP/100SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Hippopotas (Neutral): 60% - 76% (15 - 19 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Solosis is almost completely outclasssed by Elgyem as a slow psychic type. Analytic gives elgyem a similiar boost to a life orb'd magic gaurd while not forcing it to abstain from the eviolite defense boosts. Essentially, Elgyem is a bulkier Solosis that can actually find room for Recover. Iunno if that is enough to say solsis needs to stay in E class but its information that should be known when discussing the topic
  9. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    Supporting Meowth for D rank. Normal Gem + Fake Out + Covet + Technician really goes a long way, and Meowth is really good at annoying offensive and defensive teams alike by messing up sweeps, stealing Eviolites off of walls, and pivoting in and out without sustaining much damage, usually. Of course, it's frail, and it's weak, but its small niche makes it a worthy Pokemon for D-tier, IMO.
  10. MQJinx

    MQJinx

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    Nominating Pineco for D-Rank. It is outclassed by Omanyte, Ferroseed, and Dwebble as hazard supporters most of the time, and it is rather slow. However, it has a niche in Rapid Spin, but as long as you have a ghost Pineco is pretty much fodder, and Drillbur usually does the whole spinning better, being Hippopotas's partner or a bulky Mold Breaker.
  11. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Slakoth needs to be added into E-Rank. It is completely useless in the sense that is is weak and slow, and you can't afford to give your opponent absolutely free turns to do whatever they want. It is setup fodder to the max, allowing a free boost from boosting sweepers and such.

    Meowth is probably D-Rank imo, it's okay at Fake Out+Covet to be somewhat of a lead, so it can be decent.

    Nominating Duskull for D-Rank; it walls Mienfoo, and it has great defenses overall and Will-O-Wisp. It can take on some attackers and use SubSplit to wear down shit and also spinblocks Drilbur. It's outclassed by Misdreavus, but it's okay at what it does, so D-Rank should be reasonable.
  12. MQJinx

    MQJinx

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    Slakoth and Sunkern should be added to E-Rank for being completely useless.

    Meowth is outclassed by Mienfoo and even Aipom as a lead, but it has a niche for stealing items. D-Rank.

    Duskull is outclassed by Misdreavus, but it can SubSplit and lower the foe's Speed, and burn it, giving it some niche. D-Rank.

    Any thoughts on Pineco? It is outclassed by Ferroseed, Dwebble, and Omanyte as hazard setters and Drillbur as a spinner, but it has a niche of having Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Rapid Spin. I'd put it in D-Rank.
  13. Shouting

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    Call me crazy, but I think Goldeen might actually be C-tier. It only has 1 weakness to Grass, and it resistances mean it's a full hard counter to Magnemite (obviously not if it has HP Grass, but Ice and Fire are more common), Staryu, Chinchou, Ponyta, and more. These are really common on teams so it can find switches pretty easily.

    It actually has pretty decent stats, it hts 17 speed or attack, which isn't bad at all. It also has Knock off, which means it can remove all the eviolites from what it can't beat. It also beats that silly Hippo and Lileep core too, as it knocks off the eviolite from lileep and Megahorn will KO it with just a bit of prior damage.

    Very common switch ins to Goldeen are Ferroseed, Frillish, Lileep, Foongus, and other grass types, all which rely on their eviolite. Some of them Goldeen can even beat after it gets rid of it's eviolite. Tentacool can actually be beaten if you decide to use Drill Run over Return, and it's an excellent lure for it.

    Bad news is that, like plenty good defensive pokemon in LC, it gets no reliable recovery. Also, Scald burns really suck but Staryu usually doesn't run it so that is a plus.
  14. apt-get

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    ^ I faced a Goldeen the other day. Fucking annoying, decent 45/60/50 bulk, though it lacks reliable recovery. That's a shame.
    I remember seeing a knock off/drill run/megahorn/scald set. C rank might be fine, though maybe other people will see more of a D rank in it.
  15. Rowan

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    I agree with Meowth for D, and most people seem to as well, I'd say we can put that in now.

    Duskull doesn't really have any niche imo. It does have a lot of bulk and can run a decent enough set with Pain Split and Will-o-Wisp... but so can Misdreavus and Misdreavus has some offensive presence and speed. E Tier. You shouldn't be using Duskull on any team when Missy is in the tier in my opinion. Feel free to argue against this though as I may be overlooking some of its traits...

    I wouldn't mind putting Pineco in E. Staryu and Drilbur can both switch in and spin in its face unlike other hazard setters like Ferroseed. It gets no recovery (like Shelmet) so it can't consistently set up hazards. It's offensive presence is pitiful, there is no way it can spin past any spin blockers, even with Payback. And to round it all off, it's worse set-up bait than Bronzor. I can't think of a set up sweeper who would struggle to take advantage of it.

    I've never seen Goldeen, but your post compels me to try it out, Shouting. I can't see a reason why it shouldn't be C tier but I'm going to avoid saying until I've tested it.
  16. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    My personal opinion on the majority of these mons (Pineco, Slakoth, etc) is that they are so bad, it isn't worth putting them in the rankings. Even having them in E rank may get someone to believe that they are slightly viable. If you guys see what I mean, Slakoth is so bad it shouldn't get even considered to be slightly viable.

    If not, Duskull, Pineco, and Slakoth are easily E rank, never higher.
  17. iss

    iss happily ever after
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    Some quick thoughts on possible changes:

    Snover to S-Rank: Everything I could have said about this has already been said, but it is indeed worthy. If all it had was a 100% accurate Blizzard, it would still be rather good. A 120 BP Ice-type STAB is a force to be reckoned with, and Snow Warning simply makes it the single best counter to one of the most popular team archetypes. Even Steel-types cannot stand up to repeated Blizzards and hail damage. The sustained damage output of a Scarf Snover is unparalleled, and for that alone it should be S-Rank.

    Porygon to S-Rank: Many people refute this nomination with comments such as "it loses to Fighting-types". Mienfoo is OHKOed by Murkrow, one of the most common Pokemon in the metagame, yet it is still solidly S-Rank. Comment all you want about how Fighting-types are super common, but Porygon still stands as the singular best wall in the metagame. Having an answer to non-LO Murkrow, Misdreavus, Chinchou, Drifloon, Archen, Snover, Shellder, Tirtouga, hell, anything that's not Fighting-type, is simply incredible. Let me put it this way: aside from STAB Hi Jump Kick from LO Mienfoo or +1 Scraggy, there is no attack in the current metagame that will OHKO Porygon, even boosted. The sheer amount of tank that is Porygon is a force to be reckoned with, and it is indeed worthy of S-Rank.
  18. Shouting

    Shouting

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    Snover is a one trick pony. Mienfoo, Murkrow, Misdreavus etc. can all run a variety of sets while Snover can't. Everyone that uses Snover uses Scarf, and even all Scarf sets pretty much use the same exact set of moves with only differences in Hidden Power Fire or Hidden Power Rock.

    It's very difficult to get Snover in safe, it's Stealth Rock weak so a simple protect user will cause some severe problems for it. Relying on Giga Drain to help heal is not cutting it.

    It's very poor at revenge killing - Snover doesn't use the Scarf to revenge kill, it uses the scarf as a crutch because without it, it can't beat Drilbur or even Sandshrew which is what it's meant to do, so it is restricted in that it can't run any other sets and still have the niche of being a thorn to Sand. Does that sound like S-tier? That being said, ANYTHING that boosts it's speed can beat Snover easily like Scraggy, Dratini, and Axew. It falls to any Scarfer in the tier, weak to a lot of commonly seen priority, and doesn't have as much power as you're claiming it to have. For example, Snover doesn't even come close to OHKO Slowpoke and Frillish with Giga Drain, yet Snover is meant to CHECK Slowpoke and Frillish. So if slowpoke or Frillish are healthy, they can actually scout Snover's move by healing. If it gets hit by Giga Drain, Slack Off (with Regenerator) and Recover will act as if the Giga Drain never even happened. Now Snover is locked into Giga Drain which is very easily taken advantage of. Snover doesn't even OHKO Vullaby with Blizzard, even Lileep can survive a Blizzard at full health if it wants to.

    The most dangerous thing that Snover can revenge kill is Misdreavus, but it only does around 50% to the Nasty Plot set, so it has to be pretty weakened first. It can also revenge Staryu, but considering it takes 50% from one Hydro Pump it really isn't a good check if it can only switch in once.

    Snover is meant to check Sand, and that only. No one puts Snover on their team because it is a good revenge killer or because it's a good check to water types, they put it on a team to beat Sand.
  19. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    Snover can't only run scarf; It's Eviolite set is surprisingly bulky, which makes snover an excellent switchin to things like Staryu, Chinchou and even Lileep, although you have to be wary of Toxic. It's low speed is a letdown, but the ability to switch moves completely counters the most common way to deal with snover, which is to predict the move it's going to use. Being able to use Ice Shard without being locked into is is very cool too.

    Snover is not only meant to check sand. With it's superb STAB coverage, which hits every non-fire or steel type for at least neutral damage, it's really a force to consider when building any team, not just sand. I support iss for snover for S rank
  20. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    im not 100% convinced that snover would be concidered as good as it is now if it didnt completely shut down an otherwise borderline broken strategy. i have single digets worth of battery power left though, i;ll epand tomorrow
  21. cxinlee

    cxinlee

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    Supporting porygon for S-class. Porygon has great defenses, allowing it to wall a lot of mons like murk, missy, and much more. Yeah sure, there are loads of others that can act as better walls like lileep and ferroseed, but porygon stands out as a wall that actually deal some serious damage, packing a very impressive 85 special attack stat. It can spread status with twave, charge beam to boost special its special attack, and recover off any damage done. That's not the end though. Porygon's ability, Trace, allows it to obtain prankster, magic guard, and many good abilities. It can, for example, switch into volt absorb chinchou's volt switch to disrupt its momentum. Thus, I feel that porygon should be S-rank.
  22. vyomov

    vyomov

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    Nominating Darumaka for B-Rank
    Seriously? Right now it's E-Rank. With Hustle 90 Attack , Darumaka is hitting VERY hard. Even better, the main defensive type in LC(Rock) just also happens to be weak to Superpower, making Darumaka a good attacking threat.
    It definitely doesn't deserve E-Rank, at LEAST B-Rank if not A.
  23. apt-get

    apt-get CONFIRMED CONFIRMED CONFIRMED
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    Why use Darumaka instead of Ponyta which is way bulkier, faster and has healing, or Larvesta, which has loads of useful resistances and STAB U-turn, or Houndour, which can 2HKO about every single wall in LC thanks to STAB crunch/Sucker Punch?
    It'd deserve C-Rank at most, if not D. It's not bulky, has too much recoil, is SR weak, no recovery, and has to rely on the shaky accuracy of Hustle to hit things. Misses at crucial times aren't good. It's meant to be a fast pivot, but it takes too much recoil from hail/sand, flare blitz, and SR. It can't run boosting sets because it's too frail to setup first, and dies too easily compared to behemoths such as Scraggy or Pawniard. Superpower isn't really an answer, as it weakens each time you use it and it doesn't even OHKO lileep, which can recover stall you.
    196 Atk Hustle Darumaka Superpower vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 18-22 (69.23 - 84.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 22)

    Oh, and it's a one-trick-pony too. Only scarf is viable.
  24. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    So I made a list of Pokemon that weren't ranked in the OP yet and am going to list them here in three lists. The first is the ones that I consider to definitely be D rank or above. The second list is the ones that I'd probably dump in E but some cases could be made for D. And the final list are the ones that are almost indisputably E that I'd be surprised if anyone came up with any arguments against that. In my opinion the Pokemon on the first list are the most important ones to discuss. This is mainly just as a reference for people that want to nominate new mons and chances are some have been discussed already. I'll also post thoughts on Snover and Porygon later and probably some others too, when I have more time.

    Pokemon that are D+ (open)
    Anorith
    Aron
    Bagon
    Baltoy
    Barboach
    Bellsprout
    Buizel
    Bulbusaur
    Buneary
    Cacnea
    Chikorita
    Cubchoo
    Cubone
    Cyndaquil
    Darumaka
    Deerling
    Deino
    Ducklett
    Eevee
    Ekans
    Elgyem
    Exeggcute
    Goldeen
    Golett
    Grimer
    Growlithe
    Kabuto
    Lickitung
    Magby
    Mantyke
    Meowth
    Mincinno
    Munchlax
    Numel
    Nosepass
    Onix
    Psyduck
    Purrloin
    Rufflet
    Sandshrew
    Shellos
    Shelmet
    Skorupi
    Smoochum
    Tentacool
    Turtwig
    Venonat
    Voltorb
    Wailmer
    Woobat
    Wooper
    Wynaut
    Zigzagoon
    Zorua


    Pokemon that are D-E (open)
    Bliztle
    Charmander
    Corphish
    Duskull
    Electrike
    Gible
    Horsea
    Joltik
    Krabby
    Larvitar
    Litwick
    Machop
    Mankey
    Mareep
    Oddish
    Oshawott
    Paras
    Pineco
    Piplup
    Poliwag
    Remoraid
    Rhyhorn
    Seel
    Sewaddle
    Shieldon
    Snubbull
    Solosis
    Spoink
    Squirtle
    Swablu
    Swinub
    Treecko
    Trubbish
    Venipede
    Yamask
    Zubat


    Pokemon that are almost definitely E (open)
    Beldum
    Bidoof
    Bonsly
    Budew
    Caterpie
    Drowzee
    Feebas
    Geodude
    Glameow
    Gothita
    Gulpin
    Hoppip
    Ledyba
    Lillipup
    Magikarp
    Makuhita
    Mime jr.
    Mudkip
    Nidoran-F
    Nidoran-M
    Petilil
    Pidgey
    Poochyena
    Rattata
    Roggenrola
    Seedot
    Shinx
    Slakoth
    Slugma
    Snivy
    Snorunt
    Spheal
    Sunkern
    Tepig
    Togepi
    Torchic
    Tynamo
    Vanillite
    Weedle
    Wurmple
  25. apt-get

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    Zigzagoon for C- or D-Rank
    Zorua for D
    Wailmer/Cyndaquil for D although Cyndaquil is interesting
    Lickitung for B or A
    Grimer for B
    Chikorita for B or C
    Cacnea for B or C, good spiker and excellent bulky booster with SD and eviolite
    Tentacool for high C I guess
    Goldeen for C
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