Lost in Translation: Shoddy 2 DS

[Chou Toshio]

You don't even need to RNG abuse. If you have even 1 or 2 good pokemon, you can trade for most things you want, and then there are lots of redistributables too. I could have said the same for the pokemon I had collected before the RNG was cracked.

If anything, online trading is the biggest factor in team-building having been sped up.

 

[MooOnceMore]

Well, some people, me for example, just don't giva a shit and sav. In the end, you will only battle with people that approve your way of getting these Pokemons (if you're honest..).
I only battle people which don't have any porblems with Pokesav, if I would only breed or trade my stuff, I guess I also would battle people who only breed/trade..
It's just all about "internet-honor" which, meh, plays a huge roll for some people and to others, it's just does not exist.
So whatever way someone decides to go with, they share the platform on which they all battle on, wifi. Due to that, it just simply is not possible to create a Tierlist based on Wifi, some people will sav and use Rotomforms via AR-Codes, some won't. If there is no unified Community, ther will be no unified Tierlist for it...

 

[Esurio]

Um, you know he's kidding, right?

I think he was being sardonic. Trying to say that by the fact that its an outside program used outside of the game makes it the same as an RNG program or SAV. Obviously it doesn't for the wonderful analogy.

And yead I definately think ARs and SAV only perpetuate this cheating nature. Because you are 100% right, you aren't as competative when your poke only has 31 in three stats when you opponent not only has perfect 31 pokes but specifically designed Hidden Power pokes.

------

I don't think trading changed online games as much as cloning allowed for people to be less selective in trades. You aren't trading a pokemon you're trading its clone.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

"Again, RNG is the same thing as a "hack", but instead of having a program do it for you, you do it by hand. For some reason you seem to think this is the more efficient way to do things."

Hacking is for lazy people. RNGing requires effort. You're working hard for the results.



"Yes, because minutes CLEARLY equals hours/days. Maybe we do have the time, maybe we don't. But do we really want to waste more time when there is a much easier alternative?"

That's really too bad, hacking is hacking. You can't justify doing something like that.



"For those of us with brains, we realize that SAV is a much more efficient way to obtain Pokemon than RNG. I prefer to get the most out of my time."

Okay, so now non-hackers are brainless? Go away you troll.



"I'd just like to say that using an IV checker is cheating. You're using an outside program to ensure your Pokemon has good stats. Obviously it should be banned."

b'awwwww i'm grabbing at straws
No external devices are used for RNGing. It's only purists that say it's cheating or pro-hackers. It isn't cheating. The Pokemon are 100% legit, end of story. Something can't be cheating but freaking pass hack detectors.



"Well, some people, me for example, just don't giva a shit and sav. In the end, you will only battle with people that approve your way of getting these Pokemons (if you're honest..).
I only battle people which don't have any porblems with Pokesav, if I would only breed or trade my stuff, I guess I also would battle people who only breed/trade.."

I never battle with a hacker. I don't hack I don't expect others to hack. Get the unfair advantage? Cool, go battle other hackers. Get away from people who actually want to battle



"And yead I definately think ARs and SAV only perpetuate this cheating nature. Because you are 100% right, you aren't as competative when your poke only has 31 in three stats when you opponent not only has perfect 31 pokes but specifically designed Hidden Power pokes."

Cheating isn't competitive last I checked. In fact it's quite the opposite.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'd just like to say that using an IV checker is cheating. You're using an outside program to ensure your Pokemon has good stats. Obviously it should be banned.

The point of of this brilliantly ironic comment, was that even if more sophisticated, RNGReporter is fundamentally exactly the same as an IV checker-- it's just a program that organizes game information to help you look it up and use that information while playing the game.

Taken to a greater extreme of (still correct logic), RNGReporter is nothing more but a very well organized and presented Card Catalogue, Journal, or FAQ-- it's just an organization system for game relevant information. Fundamentally, it's no different from looking at Serebii's Pokedex, Smogon's Analysis, or browsing Gamefaqs.

It's just probably the best written and organized FAQ ever made for Pokemon Breeding/Catching. :P

 

[Nida]

Hell, even RNGing is too much of a time investment for me. I've got two young children to wrangle and lots and lots of work to do. (Plus, my DS has busted shoulder buttons, so no SRing for me. But that's another tale.) I've never successfully RNGed a critter, and I don't have the time or patience to sit with it for a couple hours straight and learn it, especially since I've got to manage two programs at my cramped computer while trying to compensate for a half-busted DS and keep an eye on the kids.

Trading is my option, then, but you have to start somewhere, and with the glut of RNG critters, nothing I produce will ever come close. It took me twelve generations - close to a thousand eggs - to get my quint-flawless Tentacruel, and I had to blow time using rare candies for IV checking. That's not a road I want to travel down again.

Trading is also tough for me because I can't clone my babies. I don't have AR, and I've got more important things to spend the money on. (If I had AR, breeding wouldn't be so much trouble - fast hatch, IV check, et cetera.)

I've got a ton of giveaways and redistributables, but no one wants redis pokemon in trade for their hard work. I wouldn't, either, were I in their shoes.

WiFi isn't an option for me because I can't build a team quickly enough to keep up.

 

[snecols]

OK, to be fair, I had no idea what RNG was when I posted this, and I'm spending sometime over the next couple of days researching it. Thing is, it's not an ingame mechanic, it's the cracked code OF in game mechanics, so I'm already on the fence about it.

And the game provides mechanics now for IV breeding in HGSS. I wasn't IV breeding till those titles came out and made it so easy (not entirely true, tried it once on Platinum, never again), but again, I wind up with 2, maybe 3 perfect stats if I'm lucky. And I don't use an IV calculator- I just check with the IV guy in the battle tower to see if I've landed a perfect IV in the stats I want. I've used IV calculators to check legendaries I've caught, though.

And yes, I suppose I could trade to get my RNG pokes. I guess I'm just a purist. I don't like training traded pokemon. I like to build them and name them myself. It takes work and time, but I'm usually proud of it when I'm done. It's not that I've disillusioned myself into believing I have formed a bond with this critter- I'm nearly thirty and past that stage of my life. I think it's more comparable to completing a model. Hours of work and dedication, but you've created something you can be proud of. So I don't trade for RNG or any pokemon if I can help it. I like to do it myself.

The whole RNG and SAV thing are prefect examples of how DS and Shoddy lose something in translation. DS games are being manipulated to create pokemon that conform to simulator standards, rather than the DS games having their own sets of standards. The mechanics are in the game to create pretty awesome pokemon, just not PERFECT pokemon. The whole philosophy behind the randomness of the DS games is that nothing is perfect, but you can work towards something great if you want. Unfortunately, the online battling community is desperately trying to conform to unrealistic standards due, in part, to the influence of Shoddy and the tiers it creates (which I'm not knocking. Not my thing, but I truely appreciate all the pluses Shoddy has brought to the pokemon table). For gamers like me, which evidently is a rare and perhaps slightly neurotic breed, it can be very frustrating.

 

[Vratix]

Also, if simply saying that not using an outside device were grounds for legitimacy the Beserk Gene Glitch would not be banned.

Similar to RNG abuse both are done in-game with no (direct) help from any outside devices. Therefore, according to the argument

No external devices are used for RNGing. It's only purists that say it's cheating or pro-hackers. It isn't cheating. The Pokemon are 100% legit, end of story. Something can't be cheating but freaking pass hack detectors.

my Choice Scarf Machamp with Shear Cold is legal. It passed a hack check at VGC (I didn't use it but it was sitting in my box, plain as day) therefore it is legitimate and I can use it on Wi-fi.

 

[Despotar]

Not to mention you can simply play on Shoddy..

 

[Esurio]

Also, if simply saying that not using an outside device were grounds for legitimacy the Beserk Gene Glitch would not be banned.

No one simply said anything. I don't remember anyone declaring in an announcers voice "The only form of cheating in pokemon is using outside programs!". Your contriving a statement to mean something it doesn't. No one ever mentioned "Glitching is allowed." >_>

I loved the quote on RNG:

"Its not cheating cause everyone does it minus a few 'purisits'. (Let us forget about the fact that the reason we don't see people not doing it is because they just can't compete with our IV'd BEASTS!)

AR, SAV, and RNG create an artificial plateu of 'talent' through cheating and unethical manipulation of the game. In any case I hope you guys enjoy acid rain :P.

Right, well I guess when the whole league does it it isn't cheating. Hence why I only play on Shoddy.

 

[DropTheNuke]

Originally Posted by Fat X-Act
The question "are you against hacking?" is akin to what I call the "mathematician vs. engineer" problem.

The mathematician doesn't care if something is implemented; all he cares about is whether it can be implemented or not. If it can, then it is as good as implemented already, for him.

The engineer doesn't care if something can be implemented; all he cares about is to implement it. If he fails to implement it, then it doesn't exist, even if it is proved that it can be implemented.

The mathematicians among us voted 'no' (they are not against hacking), because, for them, if a Timid 31/31/31/31/31/31 Mewtwo can exist, then it exists. The engineers among us voted 'yes' (they are against hacking), because, for them, a Timid 31/31/31/31/31/31 Mewtwo doesn't exist unless you happen to get one.

The majority of Smogoners, including me, are more inclined to the mathematicians point of view.

 

[SupremeDirt]

The thing is, when playing with actual cartridges, I'm not going to raise a whole new Pokemon to change the nature. I play for the competitive side of the game. It seems there are three ways of getting, say, a Sableye, Adamant Nature, ability Stall, 31/31/31/31/31/31

1) Pray (w/o RNG and PSav)
2) Spend much time RNGing (w/o PSav)
3) Enter values

The first one is unlikely to work. When playing competitively, we want to optimize our chances of winning within the rules of the game. Though a perfect Pokémon is mathematically unlikely, it is also mathematically possible, and therefore regardless of how it is obtained it can still not be considered cheating.

We must also take into account that some people do not have the time to RNG for every single Pokémon. Take someone such as myself, who revels in gimmick sets. Gimmick sets are largely hit and miss: Sometimes it will work great, other times it will be swept by a Stall Sableye. With this hit-and-miss aspect of my playstyle, combined with the amount of work it takes to maintain high marks in school and acquire a scholarship, am I going to take the time to train or RNG, when I could be spending that time battling? No. There is no point in me wasting my valuable and scarce free time on tasks that can be accomplished in minutes with the aid of a program.

That said, I primarily play on Shoddy and Pokémon Online, having stopped playing WiFi completely a few months after HGSS.

 

[Esurio]

The majority of Smogoners, including me, are more inclined to the mathematicians point of view.

The Hannible Lecture >_>

I've read that when I was lurking. It does make sense as I'm an Engineer Major :> . But beyond that mathmaticians are innately theorists having little direct impact on the world around them. Hereso I think that all the mathmaticians should simply use shoddy. It is quick, efficient, and best of all 'theoretical'.

Mathmaticians moving into the WiFi realm create an arms race that snuffs out realisitc and ethical playing. So many people are turned away from WiFi because of such arms races; some even resort to breaking their own ethics to have a chance to compete. On the topic of that: If you RNG, just Pokesav. Either way you are breaking the game.

At the very least the Engineers of the pokemon fandom should be able to have a thriving community upheld by the standards of the actual game and not some best case scenario theories. It would never be a big community (as it'd actually take effort) and will rely on an honor system, but if the core can be strong enough it could allow for like minded people to have fun the way they'd appritiate to have it.

Of course, Unethical Players are not the only reason I abstain from WiFi... it is decidedly broken with the lack of Formes and Acid Rain.

------

In response to Death Incarnate:

When playing competitively, we want to optimize our chances of winning within the rules of the game.

Yes. The rules of the game also apply to how you catch and raise pokemon.

What you define as competitively is actually "competative theoretical play."

Though a perfect Pokémon is mathematically unlikely, it is also mathematically possible, and therefore regardless of how it is obtained it can still not be considered cheating.

No. Now if you are talking about just the battling aspect that is shoddy, but WiFi is simply an extension of the core game. You battle people who supposedly captured (or bred) and trained their pokemon to be what they are then. That is the spirit of the game and is the rule we are talking about.

We must also take into account that some people do not have the time to RNG for every single Pokémon.

Oh definately! Imagine all the time people have to go through to breed their pokes too! Imagine if there was no AR, SAV, cloning, or RNG. Only luck and breeding (and then breeding only ensures up to 3 are perfect) and trading.

Then the time constraints would shove all the mathmaticians/magic the gatherers to Shoddy where they can worry only about EV spreads and move sets.

While the people who actually cared to train the best team would be able to play on WiFi free from the worry that all their effort would be upstaged by some guy who took five minutes with a program.

Such a metagame would be thousands of times different from Shoddy and WiFi today. You could perhaps not just only learn the names of the players but of the specific pokemon they use. It'd be the hardcore version of the metagame.

Take someone such as myself, who revels in gimmick sets. Gimmick sets are largely hit and miss: Sometimes it will work great, other times it will be swept by a Stall Sableye. With this hit-and-miss aspect of my playstyle, combined with the amount of work it takes to maintain high marks in school and acquire a scholarship, am I going to take the time to train or RNG, when I could be spending that time battling? No. There is no point in me wasting my valuable and scarce free time on tasks that can be accomplished in minutes with the aid of a program.

Sounds like Shoddy is perfect for you.

Here's the deal with gimmick sets. They are innately flawed. They exploit one or two assumptions and pray they work. It will always be a risk to run a gimmick set for the very fact that they are easily countered once learned.

In my proposed WiFi you'd need to preplan, think out everything, and basically be a Magnificent Bastard. You wouldn't just need a six man team but a sizeable side box to be able to pull from depending on who you encountered and what you heard about him/her. It'd take strategy and tactics and effort on a level that don't exist right now.

It'd be hot.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

"While the people who actually cared to train the best team would be able to play on WiFi free from the worry that all their effort would be upstaged by some guy who took five minutes with a program."

Which is why it shouldn't be allowed. I have no idea why Smogon is so pro-hacking and pro-flash cart (are they legal? no?).

 

[Chameleon]

Smogon rules are definetely not designed to be adapted to the DS. If pure competitive play and perfect IVs were so attainable on the console, Shoddy would be much less popular... The whole point of it (besides easy online play) is to work with mechanics the DS cannot easily. From there we get the tiers and everything.

But I guess people just want structure. People need a universal standard, and the least arbitrary is probably smogon's. If vaporeon suddenly becomes horrible, forgetting the tiers, vaporeon is still horrible whether you follow them or not. While this would probably support a "tier delay", like vaporeon's enemy becoming OU x months after on smogon, the same problems of pokemon training arise, only later. So I don't think there's much to do here.

RNGing and SAVing level the playing field, but I consider both cheating. How is it fair to get a pokemon you are programmed to get in 2044 in 2010? Sure, no external device, but the entire game revolves around time. People call it RNG abuse. Abuse!

Shoddy battle was made to be different from the DS, so it does not make sense how we can fix the issue of making the latter adhere to the former without cheats, if you consider them that. Also, I have to say, you said you want to play NU on the DS, and unless you want to make up and disseminate your own tier list you have smogon's stats to thank for it in the first place. Like others said, if maybe shoddy battle is for you.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

"Smogon rules are definetely not designed to be adapted to the DS. If pure competitive play and perfect IVs were so attainable on the console, Shoddy would be much less popular... The whole point of it (besides easy online play) is to work with mechanics the DS cannot easily. From there we get the tiers and everything."

Hacking isn't competitive.


"RNGing and SAVing level the playing field, but I consider both cheating. How is it fair to get a pokemon you are programmed to get in 2044 in 2010? Sure, no external device, but the entire game revolves around time. People call it RNG abuse. Abuse!"

b'awww I can't do it it has to be cheating

 

[Forte.EXE]

Hacking isn't competitive.

And I suppose using RNG to get perfect Pokemon is competitive? Either you're a troll, or you're extremely hypocritical. I'm more inclined to believe you're just trolling, since none of your arguments actually hold any ground at all.

P.S: From my understanding (I haven't really gotten into RNG, so if someone wants to correct me on this, let me know), using RNG is exploiting a code within the game. Exploiting a code.

Exploiting:

• Make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)
  
  • 500 companies sprang up to exploit this new technology
• Use (a situation or person) in an unfair or selfish way
  
  • the company was exploiting a legal loophole
  • accusations that he exploited a wealthy patient
• Benefit unfairly from the work of (someone), typically by overworking or underpaying them
  
  • making money does not always mean exploiting others

RNG isn't as 'legit' as you want it to be. It works, and it's obviously more efficient than going through the grueling process of breeding everything carefully, but it's still 'cheating'.

P.P.S: You mentioned 'never battling a hacker' earlier in the thread. How exactly would you know that you're battling someone who hacks? If they're using PokeSav correctly (not creating God-like Pokemon, correct move-sets, ect, ect), then you would never be able to tell the difference.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

"And I suppose using RNG to get perfect Pokemon is competitive? Either you're a troll, or you're extremely hypocritical. I'm more inclined to believe you're just trolling, since none of your arguments actually hold any ground at all."

Hacking = cheating. Last I checked cheating is never competitive.



"RNG isn't as 'legit' as you want it to be. It works, and it's obviously more efficient than going through the grueling process of breeding everything carefully, but it's still 'cheating'.

P.P.S: You mentioned 'never battling a hacker' earlier in the thread. How exactly would you know that you're battling someone who hacks? If they're using PokeSav correctly (not creating God-like Pokemon, correct move-sets, ect, ect), then you would never be able to tell the difference."

It's easy to spot a hacker. Very, very easy. Legal hacks aren't logical, because legal cheating in competitive doesn't exist.
RNGing is legit, it isn't cheating. Can't do it? Fine, but don't call it cheating. It requires no external devices so shut up about it already people. Do you use an IV Checker? Yeah? Filthy cheaters.

 

[DropTheNuke]

Hacking isn't competitive.

When the word "competitive" is used in Smogon, it refers to maximizing the effect of skill in a battle. So an ideal competitive metagame would be a metagame where the results of a battle are directly proportional to skill; the person who wins would be the person who is more skillful. Naturally, other factors such as luck and resources should be the same to both players in an ideal competitive environment. The key word here is resources.

Breeding isn't competitive by Smogon standards, face it. Breeding does not involve any skill found in a battle. For instance, would you say that someone who bred a sex-flawless shiny after getting extremely lucky has more skill than a person who RNG'd a quint-flawless shiny? Of course not. Breeding (and RNGing and SAVing) are only a means to the resource found in battles. An ideal competitive environment would allow both players to access the same resources.

Hacking isn't a competition. Nobody is testing you on how well you can hack the game. Battles are where the competition lies. So saying that "hacking is uncompetitive" is just as wrong as saying "RNG is uncompetitive", or "Event Pokemon are uncompetitive". Now, hacking may be morally wrong, but that's a different story altogether. Hacking does not influence the competitivity of the pokemon metagame.

I guess you could argue that an ideal competitive metagame doesn't (or shouldn't) exist on Wifi, but the fact is that the wifi community is pretty damn close to it already. With RNGing and SAVing, players are able to tap into the same resources that would help create a competitive metagame. And once the resources for both players are the same, the Wifi metagame will be one step closer to the ideal competitive metagame.

PS. something else I would like to bring up, is that you don't seem to have an issue with multiple leftovers on a team, or multiple Pokemon in master balls. Both of these would involve tampering with an outside mechanism. Sure, these are possible to achieve in-game, but it's with the same luck as breeding.

TL;DR: hacking isn't uncompetitive as long as the hacks are legal. Because nobody here is competing to see who can hatch the better pokemon.

 

[SJCrew]

Hacking is for lazy people. RNGing requires effort. You're working hard for the results.

Still not sure whether or not you're trolling, but if you're going through this much effort to be a moron, you can't just be some bored high school kid blowing off his homework.

Video games are not about work, they are about fun. I can still enjoy Pokemon without doing the same pointless redundant shit over and over. It's like beating training mode 500+ times to just so you can unlock Akuma. Fuck that, I just want to go online and smash peoples' faces in. I'll take codes any day of the week.

If you enjoy enduring hours of monotony just to be able to compete with other people who got their stats and stuff in five minutes tops, then that's fine, you go ahead and do that. But remember, the hours/days/weeks you spent fighting Tentacruel just to get Sp. Def could have been used actually playing the game or doing something else altogether.

And really dude, it's just a video game. We're not going to rob banks and shit just because we put in a couple of numbers to bypass this one stupid and boring part of the game we needed to get to the actual fun.

Cheating isn't competitive last I checked. In fact it's quite the opposite.

EV training/IV breeding or whatever isn't competitive either, since it has nothing to do playing and winning. NOTHING. The only "uncompetitive" aspects of the competitive scene are using banned Pokemon in their respective tiers and altering Pokemon with attributes they can't achieve in-game. Like 395 Speed Rhyperior. It's technically possible to get perfect IVs and certain EV combinations and your opponent can (and WILL) do it too, so you might as well get on their level and try to outwit them with your Pokemon instead of bitching about the play field.

If you really enjoy beating hundreds of Tentacruel for hours on end, I'd suggest you just leave and get back to doing that. Those Pokemon won't train themselves, you know! When you come to your senses, join us on the Smogon server and play some real Pokemon.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

Hacking for something is never competitive. Lazy people will only agree that legal hacks can exist, which they can't. No hack is legal or legit, ever.

Competitive = everyone trying to win in a fair game.
Cheating = hacking
Cheating = not a fair game

The meaning of competitive doesn't change depending on what community you are in.

 

[snecols]

Also, I have to say, you said you want to play NU on the DS, and unless you want to make up and disseminate your own tier list you have smogon's stats to thank for it in the first place. Like others said, if maybe shoddy battle is for you.

To be fair, I've stated in both my posts so far that the pokemon community owes a great deal to simulators, not the least of which is tiering. As to simulators, I tried it in the latter ADV days, and I didn't really like it. Again, I find the creation process rewarding; a win counts for a lot more when you put the effort into creating the pokemon yourself, not just the moveset. That's my take on it. Most of you have another take, which is cool. It's the fact that your standards of play dictate mine in the general community that I sometimes find frustrating. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the data and number crunching compiled by the many fine folks that develop these tiers in the first place. This thread was intended to discuss how these two play fields don't work the same way, but the standards of one dominate those of the other.


Ok this next bit is from SJCrew's post. You'll have to forgive me, but I don't do the forum thing often, and don't know how to quote multiple times, so just roll with the copy/paste on this one.

"EV training/IV breeding or whatever isn't competitive either, since it has nothing to do playing and winning. NOTHING. The only "uncompetitive" aspects of the competitive scene are using banned Pokemon in their respective tiers and altering Pokemon with attributes they can't achieve in-game. Like 395 Speed Rhyperior."

"If you really enjoy beating hundreds of Tentacruel for hours on end, I'd suggest you just leave and get back to doing that. Those Pokemon won't train themselves, you know! When you come to your senses, join us on the Smogon server and play some real Pokemon."


Dude, there's no need to rag on those of us that don't play Shoddy, that actually 'achieve attributes in-game' by achieving the attributes in-game. No one's attacking your simulator here. Go mad on your simulator, but don't call the actual techniques from the game it's simulating down just cause you don't have the patience for it. If you play by the rules of the cartridge, then IV breeding and EV training have a lot to do with battling and winning.

Following your logic of competitiveness, playing, and winning, why even tier? Just use ubers. Anyone foolish enough to use pokemon with inferior base stats is just wasting their time, cause higher stats are going to knock em out. The need for tiers is required because players like to use inferior pokemon, too. Why can't that same logic apply to pokemon not created on a simulator. Why is battling with non-simulated pokemon not "real Pokemon"? Surely you see the irony in that.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

He can't see the irony because he's too ignorant to realize that hacking = cheating, cheating = not competitive.

 

[mattj]

Yeah, gotta agree, it isn't quite as fast as whipping stuff up in shoddy, but with pokesav, AR, or RNG (pick your flavor) you can have battleworthy DS mons pretty snappylike. If I want any mon, I just RNG it. Might take an evening at most. A half hour at least.

 

[Unholy Confessions]

"Yeah, gotta agree, it isn't quite as fast as whipping stuff up in shoddy, but with pokesav, AR, or RNG (pick your flavor) you can have battleworthy DS mons pretty snappylike. If I want any mon, I just RNG it. Might take an evening at most. A half hour at least."

If you actually want to battle, RNG. If you don't care about being a filthy cheater, go ahead and AR, no one that's not a lazy ignoramus will take you seriously though.