Mega Sableye and its effect on the metagame

p2

i put it all in the bin cause that's not me
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#52
yeah none of those get rocks up against sab reliably and consistently outside of Clef, Tran, Sdef Driller, and Mega Diancie. On top of that, 1 is total shit for setting SR and another is total garbage as a mon.

OU:
Bisharp, Celebi, Chansey, Clefable, Diancie-Mega, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Gliscor, Heatran, Hippowdon, Jirachi, Landorus-Therian, Metagross-Mega, Mew, Pinsir-Mega, Skarmory, Tyranitar

Highlighted the ones that I could see doing it consistantly, not taking into account that Sableye doesn't really want to switch in to all of them, and others (garchomp, Bisharp, Gliscor) have their own ways to get around it. Also, Pinsir could get rocks up, but who would use rocks on mega-pinsir? It would be the same for Diancie too, but I've seen rock setting Diancie.

In BL:
Terrakion
Funnily enough life orb stone edge 2hkos this now that sableye are running less than max defense.

In UU:
Aerodactyl-Mega, Aggron-Mega, Azelf, Blissey, Cobalion, Donphan, Empoleon, Forretress, Gligar, Infernape, Krookodile, Mamoswine, Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Swampert

Slimmer pickings, but still some options if you want to go with less conventional mons.

In RU:
Bronzong, Camerupt-Mega, Druddigon, Dugtrio, Omastar, Registeel, Rhyperior, Seismitoad, Smeargle, Steelix-Mega, Tyrantrum, Uxie

Yeah Sableye isn't switching in comfortably on those mons. Dugtrio cause it literally cant switch in but meh. Omastar is the one that is underwhelming as a rocks setter in ou, but if you wanted one for rain teams or something it might do something? If it packs rocks though, Sableye wouldn't want to switch in on it. BL2's only rock setter is shuckle, which obviously doesn't beat sableye, but Dragalge could get up tspikes vs it if you're going for an offensive tspikes setter.

Not going to go lower than that cause of the lack of viability most of the NU and lower rock setters have in OU.


Jirachi - It needs a billion flinches or some dogshit skill swap set
Lando-T - This can break Sab, but Wisp is a bitch and guess what? its 100% walled by Skarm and total defog bait.
Mew - Needs some shitty set like NP DGleam or Skill Swap, and woah it burns sab. big deal when Mew still can't touch it otherwise
Azelf - Straight up loses to Fake Out
Empoleon - Scald burning doesn't count as getting rocks
Nidoking - Who runs SR on this????????
Nidoqueen - This isn't breaking sab once it loses its LO + it and Nidoking are totally shut down by Chansey
Camerupt - This mon is total dogshit, lets be real
Dugtrio - LOL
Omastar - see Empoleon
Seismitoed - see Empoleon and Omastar
Smeargle - if you think Skill Swap Smeargle is a legit option, I dont know what to tell you
Dragalge - Walled by Chansey and Amoong absorbs TSpikes


yeah, the point still stands, the only worthwhile rockers against Sab are Clefable, Heatran, Sdef Driller, and Mega Diancie. 1 of those are total dogshit as a rocker, another one is a total shitmon and the other 2 are among the biggest goth baits in the tier

Also idk why you're bringing up Terrakion when Sab is one of those mons that forced its viability into a downway sprial ever since its existence.
 
#53
PoMMan, in regards to your list:

Heatran, Clefable, Diancie, and Excadrill are the only ou-viable mons that can reliably set rocks vs Sableye. Heatran is fine as a rocker (except for free Starmie spins), but the others have serious issues running sr in OU. As for Clefable, it would simply rather run calm mind 90% of the time, and even if it does get rocks vs Sableye, it isn't preventing Exca / Skarm on a Sableye team from removing hazards. Diancie I won't go much into because it's an offensive mon that has better moves to run like protect and coverage options. Excadrill too would rather run rapid spin, coverage, sd, etc. over stealth rock, and this is also ignoring the fact that Skarmory freely defogs vs it.

For pokemon like Azelf, Mew, and Jirachi, no. If they have to run some stupid gimmick like skill swap or dazzling gleam in the first place then that alone shows the unhealthy effects of Sableye on the meta. For Landorus, it really has to run earth plate and even then Skarmory freely defogs vs it, unless all Landorus running eplate + smack down is a super healthy meta! Terrakion has plenty of issues in OU already, as seen in its non-ou usage, but even if it were to run rocks in OU with life orb, it wouldn't be doing so freely vs Sableye teams. Two of the most common hazard removers in OU are Starmie and Latios, so Terrakion isn't really going to excel at setting rocks.

My point is, you can't just look at pokemon theoretically getting rocks up vs Sableye in a vacuum. You have to look at the viability of sets, as well as the hazard control support alongside Sableye. My main issue with Sableye, and thus Sableye teams like the full stall that is commonly attributed to me... is that in order to beat it you need to run sets / mons that are otherwise unviable in the metagame. Having a team that functions well vs stall should not directly hinder the ability to handle other playstyles. Using hazards, smart pivots, and simply a larger range of potential wallbreakers with Sableye gone, should be feasible on any team. With the way ORAS OU currently functions with Sableye in the tier, preparing for stall generally becomes a huge hinderance to dealing with the rest of the metagame. You can't just use a well functioning team to beat stall; you have to use a specific combination of hazard setters / wallbreakers to beat stall (an example of this is Gardevoir + healing wish). I believe banning Sableye will allow for more creativity, freedom, and overall health in the metagame.
 

Aberforth

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#54
The reason for that isn't Sableye though. That's gothitelle. Unless you're telling me that its Sableye that necessitates the use of healing wish partnered with Gothitelle, or Shed Shell Manaphy.

EDIT: Making a list saying why I said they would work, but I cant type fast :[.
 

Luigi

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#55
The list of rocks mons were all the ones that got Stealth rock in OU, UU and RU, I bolded the ones I have seen successfully getting them up, or could see getting them up. I did not, therefore, say Blissey could get rocks up vs it. The only one I highlighted that isn't listed as viable in the viability rankings is Smeargle, which I've seen get up rocks/webs in ubers with a specific set (skill swap rocks/webs nuzzle rapid spin but you could change rapid spin to taunt to keep them up) While rock setting Omastar is another I admitted wouldn't be seen, if it was used in a rock setting role it could get them up vs Sableye.

luigi

As for mew, 1) Sableye doesnt really want to be status'd, which mew can do with wisp synchronise, 2) with dazzling gleam (if you choose to run it) you can hurt Sableye a fair amount, 3) you could use skill swap on it like Azelf sets do.

Can you explain to me how Terrakion, which 2hkos with stone edge, will struggle to get rocks up if sableye comes in and takes half of its health away from switching in to stone edge? It sounds like you dont want to see if there are any counterplay options to it, and are just defaulting to that nothing can get them up vs Sableye teams, which is just not true.

EDIT: The diancie thing isn't something I would run, but I have seen people run rocks mega diancie, and I vaguely remember a trick room team that used regular diancie to set rocks and then explode.
If you were making a list of every mon that learns stealth rock and not the ones that get it up vs sableye then explain to me this: why???? is that what passes as argumentation now?

what would mew ever run dazzling gleam/skill swap other than sableye? it isnt a suicide lead like azelf, if you put mew in a team you expect it to last and not have a moveslot dedicated to a single pokemon. and you are also running stealth rock, and a status move so you are proposing that dazzling gleam/skill swap - softboiled - wow - sr is a viable mew set and sableye isnt restricting in the tier?

in regards to terrakion, sure, sableye doesnt want to switch into stone edge, but terrakion doesnt want to switch into sableye either and stone edging in the switch is still a prediction, so it goes both ways. maybe the stall team switched in quagsire and force you out. also you need to have terrakion facing sableye already mega'd so not at the lead (which is where terrakion wants to set up its rocks)
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#56
The reason for that isn't Sableye though. That's gothitelle. Unless you're telling me that its Sableye that necessitates the use of healing wish partnered with Gothitelle, or Shed Shell Manaphy.

EDIT: Making a list saying why I said they would work, but I cant type fast :[.
Gothitelle will not change the fact that in general, the core of sableye / amoonguss / skarmory / chansey / quagsire with a probable hazard advantage, is capable of walling many standard cores and will still be extremely restrictive in it's counterplay, but admittedly less so. Let's not forget these teams will also have the choice to add an extra member which will reduce the counterplay to the current 5, I'd imagine unaware clef is a reasonable fit but someone better acquainted with the style can inform better than I can. I'm not really sure how to explain any further than say what I simplified this whole issue down to one the first page, which is that Sableye will always be an issue while it's in the metagame, while Gothitelle has only been an issue in ORAS with the introduction of Sableye despite Goth itself existing in BW and XY(and being awful there) and has only been successful alongside Sableye. To me this is a really logical leap and I haven't seen any arguments in 4 pages that have convinced me otherwise.
 

Aberforth

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#57
Skarm and Blissey weren't bolded. I showed the ones that got it and bolded the ones that could get through Sableye to show the proportions of rock setters that could. And also somewhat because I was too lazy to delete the non-bolded ones.

Rocks exca has sets on the analysis page.
Jirachi helps the team defensively vs powerful fairies and can beat sableye through hax, but its a jirachi. I'm less htinking flinches as I am thinking burns/paralysis + flinches.
Garchomp sets have risen in viability based on getting up rocks vs sableye, such as sd rocks, and 2 dragon tails from tankchomp leave sableye 2hkod by eq.
Landorus-t 2hkos with eq (needs earth plate)
Skill swap is one option on mew, dazzling gleam another, Sableye doesn't like getting burnt. Maybe mew was a mistake but with smart play I could see this getting rocks up.
Terrakion offensively is a decent mon and was used recently in OLT playoffs. It now 2kos sableye with stone edge cause of the fact they no longer run max defense (252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Sableye: 149-177 (49 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO)
Azelf is B- rank for its ability to set hazards up vs sableye teams for HO teams.
Empoleon is a mon that will 1v1 Sableye, forcing it out, and can therefore get up rocks.
Nidoking - fair point rocks would not be good on it
Nidoqueen - it loses its life orb? To do that Sableye needs to give up either fake out or Foul play, as well as the defensive set up sets, meaning things like Talonflame, zardx can set up in its face.
Dugtrio - C rank in viability, Sableye cant switch in on this at all.
Camerupt - a decent option on trick room teams that need a hard hitter and a rock setter while also having a free mega slot.
Omastar- fair enough.
Seismitoad - it beats it by forcing it out, therefore it can get rocks up vs it. Also helps defensively vs stuff like keldeo.
Smeargle - Not used it in ou, but I have used it in ubers and its actually a member of a pretty well known team. Gets rocks (webs on that team) up vs sableye 100% of the the time.


As for goth only being a problem with Sableye, I would reverse that, Sableye is only a problem with Gothitelle. The problems you are saying exist with stall that makes it uncompetitive can all be laid at the feet of Gothitelle. Not only that, many Mega Sableye teams have been made that aren't the same problem, and the only ones that are considered a problem are the ones that have trapping. That isn't putting the blame at the right source.

Also, what is wrong with being able to wall a lot of stuff? Isn't that the point of stall? In exchange for walling a lot of stuff, they have no offensive presence. Since when does that mean that being defensive isn't allowed in a metagame, just because it requires skill to beat. Yes it can wall a lot of stuff, but it also has to be played well in order to not lose to some of that same stuff because things can get overloaded.
 

AM

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#59
Been asked to comment on this so I will to the best of my ability. Please note I'm aware of many counter points even ones that probably haven't even been addressed or considered as of yet. Sableye is the topic of discussion but it's kind of important to note it's a combination of M-Sab / Goth that I find an issue.

I want to address this first though.
Skarm and Blissey weren't bolded. I showed the ones that got it and bolded the ones that could get through Sableye to show the proportions of rock setters that could. And also somewhat because I was too lazy to delete the non-bolded ones.

Rocks exca has sets on the analysis page.
Jirachi helps the team defensively vs powerful fairies and can beat sableye through hax, but its a jirachi. I'm less htinking flinches as I am thinking burns/paralysis + flinches.
Garchomp sets have risen in viability based on getting up rocks vs sableye, such as sd rocks, and 2 dragon tails from tankchomp leave sableye 2hkod by eq.
Landorus-t 2hkos with eq (needs earth plate)
Skill swap is one option on mew, dazzling gleam another, Sableye doesn't like getting burnt. Maybe mew was a mistake but with smart play I could see this getting rocks up.
Terrakion offensively is a decent mon and was used recently in OLT playoffs. It now 2kos sableye with stone edge cause of the fact they no longer run max defense (252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Sableye: 149-177 (49 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO)
Azelf is B- rank for its ability to set hazards up vs sableye teams for HO teams.
Empoleon is a mon that will 1v1 Sableye, forcing it out, and can therefore get up rocks.
Nidoking - fair point rocks would not be good on it
Nidoqueen - it loses its life orb? To do that Sableye needs to give up either fake out or Foul play, as well as the defensive set up sets, meaning things like Talonflame, zardx can set up in its face.
Dugtrio - C rank in viability, Sableye cant switch in on this at all.
Camerupt - a decent option on trick room teams that need a hard hitter and a rock setter while also having a free mega slot.
Omastar- fair enough.
Seismitoad - it beats it by forcing it out, therefore it can get rocks up vs it. Also helps defensively vs stuff like keldeo.
Smeargle - Not used it in ou, but I have used it in ubers and its actually a member of a pretty well known team. Gets rocks (webs on that team) up vs sableye 100% of the the time.


As for goth only being a problem with Sableye, I would reverse that, Sableye is only a problem with Gothitelle. The problems you are saying exist with stall that makes it uncompetitive can all be laid at the feet of Gothitelle. Not only that, many Mega Sableye teams have been made that aren't the same problem, and the only ones that are considered a problem are the ones that have trapping. That isn't putting the blame at the right source.

Also, what is wrong with being able to wall a lot of stuff? Isn't that the point of stall? In exchange for walling a lot of stuff, they have no offensive presence. Since when does that mean that being defensive isn't allowed in a metagame, just because it requires skill to beat. Yes it can wall a lot of stuff, but it also has to be played well in order to not lose to some of that same stuff because things can get overloaded.
- Rocks exca is quite frankly terrible, it's practically a means to an inevitable end that will result in Excas downfall. It's on the dex cause of hype factor at this point and worked for a relatively short time during a more primitive M-Sableye era.
- If we're going to look at M-Sableye in a 1v1 scenario then sure let's assume that's always the case, unfortunately it isn't.
- Fine on Garchomp, Lando-T is shaky but circumstantial, both won't outlast the normal M-Sableye teams anyways.
- I'll explain later why the smart play term being used here is kind of ironic.
- Terrakion is a decent offensive mon but it's by no means a decent Stealth Rock setter in a meta-game that is filled with Lando-T, Garchomp, and forced into very cautious situations of setting up rocks and potentially getting burned and or overloaded with opposing hazards as a grounded threat. The assumption that all M-Sableye do not run max defense is very shaky at best seeing as how some variants will opt for more or max depending on its variant. You can't just imply that Terrakion is the answer to your proposed way of getting rocks up based on that alone.
- Azelf is B- for setting up hazards in general and even then is a very overrated hazard setter where only specific teams can afford suicide leads. It's specifics of setting up on M-Sableye, which again depending on variant, won't particularly matter if they have ways to remove hazards (list hazard remover here)
- The nature of Empoleon and its lack of individual longevity requires massive support to outlast the typical M-Sableye archetype. Good luck.
- The point about rocks on Nido being a waste is fine granted subjective, the point about TFlame and Zard-X being complete stops to M-Sableye is going to be a sad revelation when the Toxic comes flying at you. I'm not trying to exaggerate M-Sableyes potential on the level of having sure fire ways to stop its checks but again let's understand that we're not talking about M-Sableyes abilities from a 1v1 perspective alone more so its effects on the meta-game.
- I hope you're kidding about the Dugtrio point.
- Camerupt, trick room, not a whole lot else to say here. Unless there's a point about M-Camerupts potential viability outside of this extremely specific archetype I can assume this one isn't a very reliable means to what you're trying to elaborate.
- Omastar was already addressed
- I've never seen an M-Sableye forced out by a Seismitoad. Do you mean under rain? That's also a rare sight these days as well. Your typical defensive toad isn't getting rocks on Sableye.
- You used Smeargle in Ubers, I'm not sure what's the implied logic here.
I have no long comment on the Gothitelle point because I think it's part of the issue if not the underlying one here judging from what I've seen in OLT (it took a single turn of Gothitelle to change the outcome of the games more so than M-Sableye), granted outside of M-Sableye it's a mediocre mon.

I can reverse this entire last paragraph to cater it to offense during the Greninja era and it will provide you with a pretty similar answer. It becomes a problem when the significant point being addressed makes the tier unbearable, degrades skill, or when the subject of the matter has a higher level of dictation over the tier in terms of its countermeasures in how you address it while handling everything else. That last point is more or less the issue with the M-Sableye archetypes.

On to making something a bit more based on the tiering policy.

Assumptions in Tiering Policy:

I.) We play, to the best of our simulator's capabilities, with the mechanics given to us on the cartridge.
A.) The ONLY exception to this is Sleep Clause.
B.) Suggestions to "remove critical hits" or "make Baton Pass fail in battle" are not valid tiering solution proposals.
II.) We cater to both ladder players (the higher end of the ladder) and tournament players.
A.) The majority of our accepted "elitism skill" is concentrated in tournaments, but the overwhelming majority of our battles occur on ladder.
B.) For actions to be taken in tiering policy, it is important to show how that action affects BOTH the ladder scene and the tournament scene.
C.) Stats for both will be highly emphasized but not a sole determining factor.
III.) Providing justification is the onus of the side changing the status quo.
A.) It is important to note that the status quo can be changed in the case of releases. This is the situation with Hoopa-Unbound, where it started directly in OU unlike other 680 BST legendaries which start as Ubers and then potentially get suspected to drop to OU.
B.) If a proposal is made to ban a Pokemon, Ability, Item, or Move, the side suggesting this ban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, and provide evidence for both.
C.) If a proposal is made to unban a Pokemon, Ability, Item, or Move, the side suggesting this unban must demonstrate all of why this is necessary, how it affects the ladder and the tournament scene, and provide evidence for both.
D.) Complex bans proposals must provide additional information into why the simpler bans are not sufficient.
IV.) Probability management is a part of the game.
A.) This means we have to accept that moves have secondary effects, that moves can miss, that moves can critical hit, and that managing all these potential probability points is a part of skill.
B.) This does NOT mean that we will accept every probability factor introduced to the game. Evasion, OHKO, and Moody all affected the outcome "too much" and we removed them.
C.) "Too much" is if a particular factor has the more skilled player at a disadvantage a considerable amount of the time against a less skilled player, regardless of what he does. In relation to the latter part, "too much" also refers to factors that nearly completely take a game out of the player's hands and turn the PRIMARY point of the game to wait for the RNG.
1.) OHKO moves are an example of the "too much" portion. With a 30% success rate, the other player will be put in an immediate disadvantage by the OHKO move user a considerable amount of the time no matter what he does.
2.) Moody and SwagPlay are examples of the "taking the game out of a player's hands". Both turn the PRIMARY point of the game waiting to see what the RNG spits out.
V.) Team match up management is a part of the game.
A.) This means we have to accept that we will be at an advantage or disadvantage from the very beginning.
B.) This does NOT mean we will accept a component that the majority of the time will turn the battle against the more skilled player. This component must both be an issue a majority of the time AND influence the battle dramatically.
C.) With optimal team building skills, the pool of options (Pokemon, Moves, Items) present in the tier should allow you to build teams addressing the different team-archetypes at least decently, and offer a solution in-battle to a large majority of the principle threats of the metagame.
D.) There is also an important point to note in that team match up is only an issue if there is an extraordinarily low chance to win from the get go.
1.) This means that, even if the better skilled player made the right plays, he lost.
2.) Team match up is only a concern if no matter what the better player did, he had zero or an extremely slim chance of winning.
3.) Basically, for tiering debate purposes, even if the better player had a team disadvantage and made the better moves the majority of the game, did he screw up a turn or two? If he did, then yes, part of the reason he lost was the team match up, but a major factor was also the poor decision.
VI.) Even though assumptions I., IV., and V., limit us, we will, within those limitations, work to maximize the concept of "player skill" determining the result of a match the majority of the time.
A.) Skill is defined in more depth in the next section.
B.) The majority of our potential suspect discussion will center around the defined versions of uncompetitive, broken, and unhealthy and how a particular suspect element lowers some component of player skill within those 3 constructs.
C.) Any of the sub-sections in skill can be emphasized for a potential suspect.
1.) If Shadow Tag reduces the battling skill component too much via removing smart switching and reducing the ability to assess risk, these should be mentioned when stating Shadow Tag is uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy.
2.) If Mega-Sableye is uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy, point out how it reduces player skill from being the major determining factor in a match and which component of skill it drastically takes away from.
Points II, III, V, and in a sense as it consolidates all those VI is what would be referred to in this instance. I'm better at just going through it with paragraphs instead of bullet points so I'll do that.

OLTs representation as both a tournament involved with its ladder portion and official tournament formats affects both at once. The M-Sableye archetype was a representation of the ladder environment, the coined "Goth Stall" as come ORAS implemented M-Sableye as one of its key focal points, due to deterring hazards while fostering the stall users. This already dictated the means as to how you would approach this archetype from Refresh M-Pidgeot, Togekiss, Shed Shell Manaphy + Pursuit to combat the Gothitelle portion and so forth. Due to the nature of OLT its only natural that the trends utilized on ladder will be seen in the official format during playoffs. These trends catch on, to the point they hit a breaking point of community outcry and realization (see Baton Pass when WhiteQueen won) and with SPL around the corner it's a real possibility that the flagship meta is going to be engaging itself in more M-Sab + Goth shenanigans for what is suppose to be one of the most competitive environments offered here on Smogon, if it's not at least looked at.

I went ahead and compiled the games that included M-Sab + Goth and the ones that included just M-Sab and just Gothitelle as well.

These teams are manageable, as subjective as this sounds but I'm positive most people can understand this point. M-Sableye still displays a strong centralization in deterring hazards and requiring strong wall-breakers to take it down or key answers in Clefable and M-Altaria but that's not exactly an issue in regards to how one would break M-Sableye alone. Btw you're free to comment on that point or the other replays but I figure instead of just solely words I can show the different scenarios where each individual component and combo came into play in regards to M-Sableye and Gothitelle G3 stands for game 3 and idk if this is a coincidence or not but I find it humorous that these g3s the player decided to use Gothstall or some form of it in the hopes of a favorable matchup in a bo3 double elimination tournament. *1 stands for another Game 3 but in which ABR's very poor choice of trying to burn M-Lopunny was a bad play as such while this replay shows M-Sableye + Gothitelle it shows it utilized in a poor manner, taking an unnecessary risk Turn 1. The important point about these two other replays is that there is always one key turn that changes the tide of the teams functionality in how it beats the M-Sableye archetypes in a reasonable manner, both involving Gothitelle tricking the Scarf onto Heatran who has the offensive potential to threaten M-Sableye while setting up rocks but loses this ability due to Gothitelle. Starmies removal due to Gothitelle as well allows the M-Sableye user to pressure GTM with not setting up rocks while able to maintain his own with the choice of removal later in the game if necessary. GTM lost this choice the moment Gothitelle came into Starmie thus sealing GTMs fate against the matchup in the long run. Game *2 shows Tesung getting trapped by the Gothitelle with his Ferrothorn but he made the smart plays in able to apply the appropriate pressure to keep it somewhat at bay barring his miss. You could also debate that the set being used was inefficient in regards to this specific replay but it comes back to some peoples points about Gothitelles mediocrity against a somewhat pretty standardized team.
Definitions for Tiering Policy:

I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon
A.) Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
1.) Assessing threats - ability to recognize major threats in the metagame and identify how they both individually and in tandem deal with your team
a.) Involves having metagame knowledge through playing and observing
b.) Involves the ability to think beyond individual Pokemon threats and into the realm of threatening strategies and concepts
2.) Dealing with threats - ability to maximize the 6 Pokemon slots, 24 move slots, and 6 item slots to handle metagame threats
a.) Ability to recognize which slots are not serving maximum utility
b.) Ability to replace low efficiency slots with higher efficiency options
3.) Building Towards a Strategy (or strategies) - ability to build a team that is "greater than the sum of the individual parts"
a.) Having the 6 Pokemon work together to cover weaknesses and emphasize strengths instead of just having 6 Pokemon with no cohesive strategy
* The most basic and common examples for covering weaknesses include combinations like CeleTran (Celebi and Heatran) or GyaraZone (Gyarados and Magnezone) in DPP
* One of the most basic and common example for emphasizing strengths includes a combination like DoubleDragon (using two Dragon Dancers to punch holes for each other).
b.) Obviously isn't limited to combinations or trios; can refer to overall team strategies (think BP chains before outlawed or simple stall cores that work to cover each other's flaws)4.) Creativity - ability to come up with unique strategies or sets to swing momentum in your favor
a.) This means being able to surprise the opponent with a unique set or strategy without losing on general utility (too much)
b.) Doesn't just mean creating new sets, but also being able to use existing sets in a creative manner
5.) Catering to Metagame / Opponents - ability to predict opponent trends, patterns, and tendencies
a.) Involves knowing the percentages of what you'll encounter on ladder and being able to build accordingly.
b.) Involves knowing your opponents in tournaments and take note of their common trends in building and prepare accordingly.
B.) Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
1.) Picking the Right Lead - ability to look at your team and your opponent's Pokemon and make an intelligent determination of what your win condition is and which Pokemon will best promote that in the beginning
2.) Recognizing the Win Condition - ability to look at your opponent's team in addition to the information gathered during a battle to recognize viable win conditions
3.) Picking the Right Move - ability to pick the best move in a discrete moment in time
a.) Encompasses ability to judge the opponent's potential moves
b.) Encompasses ability to choose between short and long term benefits and choose accordingly
4.) Smart Switching - ability to switch intelligently to swing momentum in your favor
a.) Encompasses the ability to predict an opponent's moves and switch for the best scenario
b.) Encompasses the ability to continuously switch (double or triple switching) if necessary
5.) Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
a.) The ability to predict or assume opponent sets in order to better plan a win condition
b.) The ability to to set probabilities for what the opponent has based on his actions in order to maximize predictions
6.) Long Term vs. Short Term Goals
a.) The ability to weigh when to bring in a potential win condition
b.) The ability to judge whether an immediate benefit, such a revenge kill, is worth showing your hand or bringing out the win condition too early.
7.) Assessing Risk
a.) Knowing when to sacrifice for a greater position later
b.) Knowing when and how to make a high risk, high reward move
8.) Probability Management
a.) The ability to take into account the numerous probability factors that are in the game, including accuracy, secondary effects, and critical hits, and consider the best strategy
b.) Knowing how to minimize the risk presenting by probability factors
9.) Prediction
a.) The ability to take into account all of the opponent's potential actions, apply weights to them, and move accordingly
b.) The ability to double or triple switch based on opponent tendencies to move momentum back in your favor
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill.
C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) Important to note that it is a relative statement; a 200/200/200/200/200/200 BST Pokemon with standard movepool would be broken in a metagame where the average is say, 100/100/100/100/100/100, not where the average is 200/200/200/200/200/200
B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
D.) Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but aren't necessarily entirely so.
1.) BP was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to match up, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
2.) While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it.
IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent
A.) These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually, but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
1.) We haven't really had an example of an unhealthy ban yet, but a potential example is Stealth Rock; it certainly is on the mind of every team building experience and games are often steeped in Stealth Rock strategy. Whether or not this adds up to limiting team building skill or battling skill is part of the conversation to be had.
2.) One important thing to note with this is that distribution both matters (in the case of large distributions) and doesn't matter (in the case of low distributions).
a.) If Stealth Rock or Scald weren't so common, they probably would not be as controversial issues as they are.
b.) However, just because something isn't highly distributed, like Shadow Tag, doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy. Some tried to state that Shadow Tag wouldn't be broken on a 10/10/10/10/10/10 BST mon, but this is the wrong way to look at it.
c.) Things aren't broken (or unhealthy or uncompetitive) only in vacuums; they can contribute to the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. Instead, consider how potentially broken elements would be with average distribution on average BST Pokemon. If Shadow Tag was on, let's say 4-5 OU potential Pokemon as opposed to 1-2 and the average BSTs were something like 80/80/80/80/80/80, would it be broken?The take away from this is to not ignore distribution, but if lowly distributed, to assume how the element would take away from team building or battling skill if it was distributed to average pokemon in an average quantity.(Yes, we will provide average statistics)
B.) This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good to great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.
1.) The Mega-Metagross suspect could be said to fall under this umbrella; Mega-Metagross wasn't really broken, but it was the best Pokemon in a game with far too many good to great threats. It was felt that, for the sake of metagame health, we should seek to reduce the number of these threats (however, you'll note the community voted to keep it in the tier).
C.) This is the most controversial and subjective one, and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The OU Council will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
D.) When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.
I acknowledge that Gothitelle has the merits of being uncompetitive but because of its relatively low usage from a statistics standpoint based on tournament settings overall, I believe that M-Sableyes much more prominent centralization is one of the larger issues that needs to be addressed involved with the way it instigates the archetype that involves Gothitelle while displaying its much more heavier centralization and effectiveness (the archetype) over a longer period of time since the start of ORAS. M-Sableye I believe is more broken under the point of being more uncompetitive, as its means to fully handle the archetype it enables is much more specific in viable answers. Its ability to emphasize hazard control and be one of the bigger culprits in match-up based elements I do not believe puts OU at the level of competition that is to be expected of our flagship tier.

M-Sableye shows strong traits of being unhealthy but even with the framework displaying a more objective approach of this I can understand this is a very touchy subject and can't exactly be objectified due to the variety of opinions. I'm also open to reading legitimate cases about adaptation because ORAS guys have been "adapting" for awhile now lol. Arcticblast while some of the points stated here show just that please don't assume we're all part of that category you just put myself and many others who have an issue with these kind of teams are trying to explain here. Please and thanks.
 
#60
The only issue I take with AM 's post and a lot of the opinions surrounding Gothitelle is that there seems to be this attitude of "Well if we can get her to fall out of favor/have low usage she isn't a problem." I don't understand this logic. Regardless of if she is a good choice or has high usage, she does nothing good for the meta. There is no benefit in keeping her around. The gameplay that she inspires is uncompetitive as per our definition (and no fun :[ ). I think that, as AM said, Mega Sableye without Gothitelle is manageable. Is it not manageable enough to stay OU? Maybe/maybe not! But why not suspect it after we get rid of Gothitelle, who offers nothing healthy anyway?

Sableye at least has an argument to stay in the tier in that hazard stacking is really strong right now, its hazard control is the backbone of stall teams atm, some people think it's only too strong due to Gothitelle, etc.

We have a Mega Sableye that's arguably bad for the meta without Gothitelle, and Gothitelle that is definitively matching the qualities we defined as uncompetitive with or without Mega Sableye and regardless of how often it's used. In my mind, even if Mega-Sableye is bringing up Gothitelle's usage, he has nothing to do with the actual things that make Gothitelle ban/suspect-worthy. Mega Sableye deserves to be suspected for sure, but definitely without Gothitelle artificially inflating its effects with its uncompetitiveness.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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#61
If you're going to say something like that it might be a good idea to explain what you consider to constitute hazard stacking.

I always thought the general idea was Stealth Rocks + Spikes (or Toxic Spikes), which certainly exists in OU regardless of Sableye (although it kinda shits on those teams lol)

Personally kind of impartial as to whether we decide to test Sableye or Gothitelle first. My only real concern is that if we ban Sableye first, Gothitelle may no longer be viewed as a problem just because its viability will decrease. Then again, arguments for its uncompetitive qualities aren't really reliant on it being super viable so it's whatever
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
#62
If you're going to say something like that it might be a good idea to explain what you consider to constitute hazard stacking.

I always thought the general idea was Stealth Rocks + Spikes (or Toxic Spikes), which certainly exists in OU regardless of Sableye (although it kinda shits on those teams lol)

Personally kind of impartial as to whether we decide to test Sableye or Gothitelle first. My only real concern is that if we ban Sableye first, Gothitelle may no longer be viewed as a problem just because its viability will decrease. Then again, arguments for its uncompetitive qualities aren't really reliant on it being super viable so it's whatever
Why is this a concern? Noone gave a hoot about Gothitelle pre-Sableye, because while it does possess a unique skill set it's flaws can only truly be mitigated by the archetype that Sableye allows to flourish.(I'm convinced of this until someone can demonstrate a truly consistent squad with Goth that doesn't contain Sableye). Also I'm fairly sure pretty much everyone would rather see only one thing banned than multiple things, if the issue can be fixed as cleanly as possible that absolutely has the be preferable route, assuming said issue has been resolved.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
#63
I've wanted Goth gone for forever lol.

In terms of like being a top ranked thread yeah it was never there. But neither was Baton Pass. Admittedly Goth isn't nearly as effective unless paired with Mega Sableye, but I think it's a dumb pokemon that's uncompetitive. I agree we'd rather only remove one thing but in this case the thing I would personally rather remove is Gothitelle because it fundamentally removes elements of choice. I actually think using it as a stallbreaker (rather than on stall) is even dumber because unlike doubling around with Manaphy to avoid it when facing stall (or running Shed Shell), you can't really do the same with your Clefable which needs to be at full to check Latis/whatever and needs Leftovers for that too.

If you want my honest opinion I think both of these pokemon have unbelievably stupid abilities that are capable of making the right pokemon uncompetitive or broken. I'm more convinced that Goth is uncompetitive than Sableye is, although I think Sableye is pretty unhealthy.
 

Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#64
I think some people are kinda overstating how impossible it is to get up rocks on Sableye. Yes, if it's at full, not much is capable of it, but Sableye isn't going to be at full a lot of the time, especially since it lacks Leftovers recovery. For instance, it only needs to be at 65-80% or so before being 2HKOed by EQs from any of the 3 Ground-types that are generally used as SRers. And getting it to that range is far from impossible when 3 of the 4 main SRers in OU all have a different way to wear it down, Garchomp has Dragon Tail, Lando-T has U-Turn and Hetran has Lava Plume burns. You can absoluetly get rocks up on Sableye with a setter that cannot 2HKO it from full health.

However, the amount of prediction skills you need to do that is really unrealistic. If you're running Chomp or Lando-T, not only do you need to U-Turn / Dragon Tail the first couple of times Sableye comes in, you need to EQ it if it gets weakened, and then getting rocks up is a 50/50 of whether or not he's going to stay in : if you SR while it's still on the field, you're fucked, and if you EQ as it switches out, you have another 50/50 coming your way as you try to get rocks up again.

Sableye and Gothitelle both protect stall from things that are used to break it, but I don't think their uncompetetiveness is equivalent : not only is there actual counterplay to Sableye as opposed to Goth, but Sableye has to be kept alive throughout the battle to do its job, giving you multiple opportunities to bypass it. Goth just has to do its job once nad that's it, there's nothing you can do about it anymore. Sableye doesn't invalidate skill like Gothitelle, however teams with Sableye forces opponents to have way more skill than they would usually require to beat teams without it. This is what I find potentially uncompetetive about Sableye, the fact that it inherently gives way more control over the course of battle to the person using it, and makes battles kinda unfair by putting the opponent at a natural disadvantage.

My main concern with banning Sableye is that, as Queen Of Randoms mentoned, Spikes are extremely potent in OU at the moment, and Sableye is one of the only things keeping them in check. Without Sableye, I'm afraid of Spikes taking over completely and just polarising the metagame, to the point where OU with Sableye would be more fun to play than without on the whole. I get that we don't keep things in OU to check other things, but this is a move we're talking about, there is no precedent at all for banning a move in OU so we almost certainly will not be banning Spikes, and we're hardly going to ban its setters either, so perhaps Sableye is a necessary evil, keeping a lid on a playstyle that would otherwise turn the tier stale.

That being said, this is all theoretical, a suspect ladder would give us a clear idea of how a metagame without Sableye would look like. I completely support suspecting Sableye for that reason, even though I personally wouldn't ban it at the moment.
 
#65
considering the results of the suspect just got in like a day or two ago, i feel this should be noted: according to serebii, sableye will be getting thunder wave via event. it should be noted, however, that this comes at the price of its incompatibility with prankster.

do you guys think this will change things for it, or will giving up prankster pre-evo be too high of a price? will cm+twave be a thing? will this push sableye over the border of uncompetitiveness? will goku defeat cell?


okay nevermind, sorry everyone, serebii just fucked up appearantly and typod shock wave as thunder wave somehow lol
 
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blunder

the bobby fischer of pokemon
is a Tiering Contributor
#66
this thread is pretty dead even though discussion of sableye has started to come up in the policy review thread so i thought i'd post some of my thoughts on sableye in the metagame. the majority of arguement against sableye is that it beefs up stall to the point where only extremely tailor made counter teams have a shot against it which is heavily overexaggerated when it comes down to the battle itself. sableye is nothing special barring the influence it has on the hazard game for stall. stall is always going to be a matchup based playstyle with or without sableye because it aims to cover as many threats as possible. one of the most common stall teams currently has the strategy of double defog which makes it incredibly hard to keep hazards up against in the first place which shows that sableye isn't some catch all to hazards in the metagame. there seems to be some sort of mentality that if stealth rock is able to go up against stall that the matchup against stall has now somehow been simplified tenfold which is not the case whatsoever.

for example look at this match between boudouche and cbb for spl week 1: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112366 this is the perfect example of a team that was not going to be able to break stall regardless of what it did - boudouche was able to set up stealth rock on turn 3 and keep them up for almost the entirety of the game and even then there was no way for boudouche to break through this team, sableye or not. regardless of sableye being in the metagame or not, you will always need to go out of your way to prep for stall or be able to outplay these builds and against any smart player hazards will not always be a guranteed win against stall and most will know what to sack that they don't need and then defog the hazards away and then you're back at square one. the simple core of chansey quagsire skarmory is on its own extremely hard for most teams to deal with and are all much more difficult to play against than sableye for teams. cosine180 had a team that was very popular last year that consisted of breloom/garchomp/bisharp/talonflame/starmie/diancie and this team evidently was destroyed by that same 3 mon core almost always found on stall. sableye evidently had very little purpose against this team and was pressured by every single pokemon. even if rocks are able to go up you can only outplay so much by double switching so every pokemon takes stealth rock and then is worn down, against a good player this will never be the case of how the pokemon battle goes. something that needs to be stated is that in a pokemon battle you don't start turn 1 with rocks going up on both sides, you have to map a gameplan out to be able to get them out. the only style that actually has trouble with sableye stall because of sableye are the bulkier clef/m-latias/ferro sand builds that fail to beat stall regardless which makes me wonder to an extent why sableye is being blamed for stall being so powerful. banning sableye won't change anything in the meta, in fact it will just make stall teams harder to deal with as people will prepare less and thus run into more unwinnable matchups.
 
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OrdA

That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be.
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#67
Quick post, because it's already pretty late here.

Stall vs stall has become a more terrible matchup than ever before when we banned Gothitelle but kept Sableye, because Sableye-Mega is a mon that neutralizes every stall wincon in existence, besides defensive setup.

Hazard Setters, Status users besides scald, and Taunt users all get turned off. This leads to some very long and stale games.
 

I'm Rick Pickle

BOOM! Big Reveal!
is a Tiering Contributor
#68
this thread is pretty dead even though discussion of sableye has started to come up in the policy review thread so i thought i'd post some of my thoughts on sableye in the metagame. the majority of arguement against sableye is that it beefs up stall to the point where only extremely tailor made counter teams have a shot against it which is heavily overexaggerated when it comes down to the battle itself. sableye is nothing special barring the influence it has on the hazard game for stall. stall is always going to be a matchup based playstyle with or without sableye because it aims to cover as many threats as possible. one of the most common stall teams currently has the strategy of double defog which makes it incredibly hard to keep hazards up against in the first place which shows that sableye isn't some catch all to hazards in the metagame. there seems to be some sort of mentality that if stealth rock is able to go up against stall that the matchup against stall has now somehow been simplified tenfold which is not the case whatsoever.

for example look at this match between boudouche and cbb for spl week 1: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112366 this is the perfect example of a team that was not going to be able to break stall regardless of what it did - boudouche was able to set up stealth rock on turn 3 and keep them up for almost the entirety of the game and even then there was no way for boudouche to break through this team, sableye or not. regardless of sableye being in the metagame or not, you will always need to go out of your way to prep for stall or be able to outplay these builds and against any smart player hazards will not always be a guranteed win against stall and most will know what to sack that they don't need and then defog the hazards away and then you're back at square one. the simple core of chansey quagsire skarmory is on its own extremely hard for most teams to deal with and are all much more difficult to play against than sableye for teams. cosine180 had a team that was very popular last year that consisted of breloom/garchomp/bisharp/talonflame/starmie/diancie and this team evidently was destroyed by that same 3 mon core almost always found on stall. sableye evidently had very little purpose against this team and was pressured by every single pokemon. even if rocks are able to go up you can only outplay so much by double switching so every pokemon takes stealth rock and then is worn down, against a good player this will never be the case of how the pokemon battle goes. something that needs to be stated is that in a pokemon battle you don't start turn 1 with rocks going up on both sides, you have to map a gameplan out to be able to get them out. the only style that actually has trouble with sableye stall because of sableye are the bulkier clef/m-latias/ferro sand builds that fail to beat stall regardless which makes me wonder to an extent why sableye is being blamed for stall being so powerful. banning sableye won't change anything in the meta, in fact it will just make stall teams harder to deal with as people will prepare less and thus run into more unwinnable matchups.
That team is weak to stall in general. If people suddenly want to stop running stallbreakers after Sab gets banned and then lose to stall, that's ok. You can't prep for everything in the metagame right now, and you won't after the suspect, my general mentality is that if somebody happens to bring something that I didn't prep for, and I lose, that's ok, it was my fault and maybe the team I'm using needs to go back to the drawing board.

However, there's a difference between not prepping for Mega Medicham/Char Y or similar and losing to them, and not prepping for a specific Sableye build. Like maybe I do prep for the Weavile stall team by bringing CB ttar, which has a great matchup, but just gets trapped by the Dugtrio on the double defog team. Just to be clear I'm not implying anything about trapping being broken, I'm just saying what's good against one Sab team can be pretty useless against another. Specific preparation is needed because of how much it seals off general support in taunts, wisps, spikes, and a lot of stealth rock users.

Defog isn't nearly as good as Magic Bounce when it comes to rocks, and I wouldn't call forcing a sack being back at square one, because if you make the same thing happen again chances are you're in a very good situation.

I really disagree with banning Sab not changing anything. If you just look at the history of the tier, stall was never seriously regarded as a problem in XY, and towards the end of that era it was generally considered to be suffering in terms of viability. All of the problems with stall literally coincide with various metagame developments involving Sableye. It was first flagged up as a problem with the original Sab, Goth, Chans, Skarm, Quag, Cress team. It then became even more dominant after having a slot freed up due to the Lando I ban, and was able to put Amoonguss over Cress. After a while it became clear that the team was too much for the tier. People looked at Sableye as a problem, but in the end only Shadow Tag got banned. For a long time, Weavile was just put over Gothitelle, but because the team was built around Goth, but now lacked it, it became weak to stuff like Manaphy and rocks Heatran. Later, Tele produced this Sab/Skarm/Zap/Suicune/Clef/Dugtrio team, and now just a few weeks later, here we are again discussing Sableye as a problem.

Every development in stall that's been regarded as a problem for the tier has involved Mega Sableye. There's a reason the team you linked picked up tour wins at a given point in the metagame, but Sableye stall has been smashing the ladder forever, and been picking up tour wins all gen. We haven't yet had a chance to see what a metagame that has developed without Sableye will look like. However, the suspect ladder where Sableye was banned did seem like a much healthier metagame. Believing that Mega Slowbro or stall teams with other defensive megas will just swoop in and take Mega Sableye's place is a lot of speculation, especially because stall teams that lack Mega Sableye are so uncommon. I'm not trying to eliminate literally every matchup loss in the metagame, because that can't be done, but because of how many of these very matchup based teams rely on Sableye, I reckon we can make the meta a lot better by banning it. At the very least a suspect will give us a chance to have more insight into what a Sableye-less metagame involves, and it's important to give it a proper trial by not suspecting it along with the obviously broken shadow tag.