Mega-Salamence: considering a quick ban (Don't ask for the thread to be closed!)

[DaVolterbomb]

It's situational for heads up. Not switch ins. Like I said, risk on the roll. Anyways, if you're making Sylveon to stop the OHKO first turn, specifically against mega mence - 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 244 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 267-315 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 313-369 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+
0+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 492-578 (124.8 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I see no flaw in this set for Sylveon taking a hit and hitting harder.

Again, it can't switch in. Manually* That's not the sitation. The situation is prediction or free switch. This Sylveon will always win heads up

F*** Just Taunt the damn thing with a Prankster. The obvious problem is DD Dance and Sub. lol

Subject 18 Edit: Learn to edit your posts...

 

[Elveman]

Again, it can't switch in. That's not the sitation. The situation is prediction or free switch. This Sylveon will always win heads up

Okay, that can be true for all-out Mence (and still DE has huge chance to OHKO this set after Rocks) but if you're getting free switch-in after DDMence klled something, MMence is probably at +1, and Sylveon isn't best revenge killer when Mence is at +1
And prediction is not a true argument 'cuz it goes both ways

 

[EmblemLord]

Sylveon only works if they are both sent out on the field at the same time, but Mega-Mence can always just switch out into a Fairy resist. Once it gets in on any other member of your team safely, the Sylveon becomes dead weight. It's far from reliable, but it can avoid the OHKO from Double Edge and still be able to OHKO Mega-Mence without SR up.

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega-Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 285-336 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega-Salamence: 446-528 (113.1 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[DaVolterbomb]

^^ You both have the right argument. Prediction isn't viable I guess, unless someone is that ignorant to send out mence on Sylveon uring a free switch/revenge (thinking they can OHKO). And Yeah it can avoid the OHKO DE without SR, but, only if it's heads up. If Mence is trapped and taunted would be the most beneficial/viable/reliable scenario. There's 100 ways to take down mega-mence. The fact is, there's just too many random mons, different stat placments, and forced bad synergy to take it out with more than a few good counters. You have to start going into changing ablity, bulk, stat swapping, damage forcing, etc. It's a painnn. E.g., I really don't want to run a 252 HP/252 Def Sylveon. . Just to TRY, to take down mega mence.

They thought VGC was bad with Megakhan. . .Get ready

Subject 18 Edit: Stop double/triple posting so much...

 

[TheMohZone]

Sylveon would put a stop to a Meance sweep if Meance is only on +1, sub or no sub, but if the Meance is running DOuble Edge or manages to hit you and live to tell the tale, it can't stop it again. and nothing is stopping meance from GTFO and trying again later.

 

[SaberSeven]

Mega Salamence is a disgusting mon. Great movepool, sky high attack, 120 speed, great ability in Aerialite, a great boosting move in Dragon Dance, and a boosted defense coupled with Intimidate before mega evolving. The best way to eliminate it is to Ice Shard it, but Mamoswine has some issues getting in safely. You can try burning it, but keep in mind that its most popular set is SubDD which means unless your Sableye is still running Prankster, good luck burning it before it Subs up.

tl;dr QUICK BAN THIS THING NOW!!!

 

[NoahStar]

Never in my 8 years of competitive battling with Smogon have I seen the community want something banned as bad as this fucker. I'm not going to rant about how broken MMence is because we already know how broken it is. The last time I've heard an outcry this big from the community was either when Garchomp was banned in Gen 4 or when Mence was banned the first time in Gen 4.

TL:DR - Ban. This. Fucker. Now.

 

[Dade Luiz]

I personally run a defensive core of Tyranitar, Zapdos and AV Metagross and haven't had any trouble with him. They might all resist him but I'm yet to have him beat any of them one on one yet, but I have restarted the ladder so Pokes like special MegaGross are around, so mine might not be the most reliable input.

 

[Vengeance417]

I personally run a defensive core of Tyranitar, Zapdos and AV Metagross and haven't had any trouble with him. They might all resist him but I'm yet to have him beat any of them one on one yet, but I have restarted the ladder so Pokes like special MegaGross are around, so mine might not be the most reliable input.

EQ beats both T-Tar and Metagross (why use AV Gross when the Mega form is so much better?) and Zapdos HAS to run HP Ice to stand a chance, but even then, if Mence has set up enough times, especially when we're talking about a bulkier set, Zapdos can't do much back, even with HP Ice, since I believe it's a 2HKO uninvested and when Mence has special bulk investment.

 

[opw_Blade]

For the sake of the legitimacy of my post, I will mention that I have been participating in OU for the past nine years. Although I am not one of the best players, I have much experience in observing what makes a mon broken. My post will discuss why MS (Mega Salamence) is a broken pokemon.

Firstly, MS has various, powerful move pools. When a pokemon with fantastic stats has many viable options, it poses a great threat to the meta game. In such a case, predicting its move pool is not the issue, but rather, countering its typing along with its excellent stats becomes a major consideration in team building.

Secondly, MS has access to a variety of both physical and special attacks with stats to make them viable. Clearly, especially with Aerilate, MS is a very bursty, offensive mon. While this is great for answering stall teams, it makes for a difficult contender for hyper-offensive teams. Therefore, bulky, stall-like teams are decent for fighting MS, while, at the same time, MS can effortlessly sweep them, given it has an ideal move pool at the time. Bulky and hyper-offensive teams are each very popular at the moment, showing that MS is having a drastic effect on the meta game.

Third, MS is an on-point-game-changer mon. These types of mons are pokemon who can single-handedly and consistently win a battle based off one mistake from the opponent, such as Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Gengar, and Mega Mawile. Given MS has time to set-up a Substitute or Dragon Dance, it can achieve a victory quickly.

Fourth, MS does not have consistent hard-counters or hard checks. Because it has such a diverse move pool and excellent stats, establishing MS counters in a team may turn out to be ineffective. Deciding on whether the opponent's MS is special, physical, or mixed makes for difficult and unique counter play.

In conclusion, Mega Salamence is the mon to look out for in every OU battle. Its placement as an S+ class member is reasonable. For the sake of a skill-based, balanced meta game, I highly support the quick ban of Mega Salamence.

 

[Supremedragoon]

Yup. You're right. I shouldn't be using Noivern in OU. Maybe another Salamence to counter Salamence? I mean it is the best counter to it, is itself. The problem is, I want to compete in Pokemon, not Dragon Rulers.

Whats wrong with dragon rulers? Level 7 Self Reviving self searchers not balanced enough for ya?

 

[lacerta]

I apologise for any suggestions I make in this post that have already been mentioned and refuted, or just outright don't work! I have only just come back to pokemon and so am a little out of touch with the meta, and have only been able to try most of the following suggestions on paper.

I understand that ORAS and XY are focused heavily on offense, so it's understandable that defensive checks and counters may be immediately overlooked or dismissed in favour of revenge killers (Weavile, Mamoswine, Talonflame). And it's probably quite odd to imagine that a pokemon that cannot be revenge killed could yet be hard-countered. But I am wondering if sets in the vein of DW Excadrill, or gen 4/5 Garchomp eras have been tried? Rhyperior for example can survive two +1 Earthquakes from MMence, and threaten it even through its Substitute with Rock Blast. Similarly, physdef Shuca Tyranitar/Diancie can survive two consecutive Earthquakes if the berry is intact, and both can clearly threaten Mence with STAB moves. MAggron can perform a similar feat to Rhyperior with its ability. Bronzong can effectively run the same set as it has done for the past seven years, even with the Hidden Power nerf.

(edited to add calcs)

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 190-225 (43.7 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
124+ Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 280-332 (75 - 89%)
(124+ Atk ensures that 168HP MMence is always KOd after having one substitute broken. However as 168HP MMence may not run max Atk or EQ, this investment may not be necessary)

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Bronzong: 151-178 (44.6 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
152 SpA Bronzong Hidden Power Ice vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 188-224 (50.4 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(This example spread avoids the 2HKO from offensive Aerilate Double-Edge whilst guaranteeing the 2HKO on 168HP variants)

+1 252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 115-136 (33.4 - 39.5%)
0 Atk Mega Aggron Ice Punch vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 232-276 (62.1 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(This is the standard, unoptimised MAggron set)

Please note that these are all entirely viable sets in this metagame, and where applicable a Shuca Berry greatly enhances the range of OU threats that these pokemon can check, making them versatile and general counters rather than tailored gimmicks. There are other, less viable options such as MSteelix, MAerodactyl, Shuca Empoleon and physdef Shuca WishRachi, the latter two of whom proved their value in similar roles in previous gens. MTyranitar and Impish MMetagross both seem on paper as though they could match up well. A step further down the viability ladder and we still have possibilities, albeit leftfield ones -- Avalugg, WoW Solrock, Regirock for example. Do any of these sets seem unworkable? Downright silly, maybe? Too much of a specific trade off for the sake of only one pokemon? Perhaps, but as I understand it that is exactly what suspect tests are to determine. These are the kind of sets that appear on suspect ladders, and find their way into a subsequent main ladder should they be effective enough to lessen the threat posed by the tested pokemon -- in an ideal scenario. Quick-banning Salamence, as appealing as it may be, doesn't give the metagame the chance for this sort of experimentation, and thus doesn't reflect the power of MMence in a metagame adapted to it. Going through the full suspect process, on the other hand, allows adaptation and innovation thanks to the emphasis on checking MMence. If revenge killing does prove impractical, and defensive counters are the only solution, the I for one look forward to MMence paradoxically introducing a more defensive metagame.

But really I just wanna use Rhyperior and Avalugg on the suspect ladder!

 

[Sean Wei]

With Mega Mence being such a threat to the OU meta game, I believe it should be quick banned. However, without its Key Stone, I believe a regular Salamence can be handled. Pokemon like Greninja can easily take care of regular Mence bar it being scarfed. Mega Salamence should be quick banned, but the regular Salamence should definitely stay in its rightful tier.

 

[Justhavinfun]

If M-Mence only had the infamous sub dd set I would say a suspect test would be the best route but it has way more at its disposal. The fact that it hits hard with stab on both sides seals the deal in my eyes. It has plenty of checks available but the problem is it has no true counters. The combined bulk, speed and power M-Mence possesses sets it apart from any mega in OU atm. If you are running any other mega in OU right now it's because you don't want to use M-Mence not because it won't fit on your team. I think S+ in the viability rankings says it all. If you are building a team that can't handle M-Mence you are going to lose when you play against a decent player using it. The fact that almost all of its checks also check talonflame just makes bird spam better because one of them will create opportunities for the other. A suspect test might be the way to go but I wouldn't mind seeing it quick banned either.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

Now I'm for this ban as much as the next guy (on paper it's pretty crazy) but I have to say, with my team with Sceptile and Greninja this thing never gets to set up on me. The only set I've seen as well is the sub dd set which is walled and phased by heatran or skarmory. I know other sets can be used but I've never seen any of these around the 1400 mark on the ladder, only sub dd. How often do these other sets show up? Do we really have the data to support a ban? Win/loose records? Once you figure out the set how hard is this thing to handle?

 

[wolfenstein]

With Mega Mence being such a threat to the OU meta game, I believe it should be quick banned. However, without its Key Stone, I believe a regular Salamence can be handled. Pokemon like Greninja can easily take care of regular Mence bar it being scarfed. Mega Salamence should be quick banned, but the regular Salamence should definitely stay in its rightful tier.

Yes that's how mega bans work in OU, the stone goes to ubers but you can still use the pokemon, because salamence on it's own isn't deemed broken.

Now I'm for this ban as much as the next guy (on paper it's pretty crazy) but I have to say, with my team with Sceptile and Greninja this thing never gets to set up on me. The only set I've seen as well is the sub dd set which is walled and phased by heatran or skarmory. I know other sets can be used but I've never seen any of these around the 1400 mark on the ladder, only sub dd. How often do these other sets show up? Do we really have the data to support a ban? Win/loose records? Once you figure out the set how hard is this thing to handle?

Any good OU player in the top of the ranking will be able to use mega mence well enough to the point where even if you know it has sub DD it wont matter, because he will most likely get the chance to set up if he has gotten rid of the things that check him like mega sceptile and greninja. It's not hard to beat a check with mence, just like it's not hard to use your other teammates to beat said checks beforehand. That's why they're called checks and not counters, because both sceptile and greninja get beat by a mence after it dragon dances. It has forced people to use insane things just to beat this behemoth, because believe me, when you play a very good OU player you wont be able to beat a mega salamence team with only checks, you need a counter.

If M-Mence only had the infamous sub dd set I would say a suspect test would be the best route but it has way more at its disposal. The fact that it hits hard with stab on both sides seals the deal in my eyes. It has plenty of checks available but the problem is it has no true counters. The combined bulk, speed and power M-Mence possesses sets it apart from any mega in OU atm. If you are running any other mega in OU right now it's because you don't want to use M-Mence not because it won't fit on your team. I think S+ in the viability rankings says it all. If you are building a team that can't handle M-Mence you are going to lose when you play against a decent player using it. The fact that almost all of its checks also check talonflame just makes bird spam better because one of them will create opportunities for the other. A suspect test might be the way to go but I wouldn't mind seeing it quick banned either.

All of what you just said makes it 100% eligible for a quickban lol. You gave no reason for it to be suspect tested and by the looks of everyone else's comments it probably isn't going to be and definitely doesn't deserve to be, 'cause that just wastes time in this case.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

lacerta after reading the second paragraph, you seem to believe that we haven't had enough time to try and find arguments, but we've had access to the ORAS ladder for about a month and more time still to theorymon checks and counters. This isn't like Mega Mawile, which needed time to catch on before dominating the ladder. Mega Salamence has been heavily abused since day 1. I honestly don't know how much more time we really need to find checks and counters that, quite frankly, aren't terrible. As to the checks, there are plenty of defensive Pokes that check him, and I'd honestly say that a plethora of common defensive checks could easily be named. Granted, it has the tools to get by most of its checks (i.e. Fire Blast for Ferro and Skarmory and Hydro Pump for Rhyperior), but on a Stall team I'd imagine that it'd be easier to mitigate that issue (read: MegaBro and MegaEye). It's checks for offense that tend to be an issue. He's almost as fast as Greninja, and after 1 Dragon Dance virtually no scarfer (except Scarf Greninja and Scarf Noivern) can touch him. This wouldn't be so bad, but its bulk makes it difficult for it to even be revenge killed by Ice Shard abusers, especially Sub DD variants.

Now I'm for this ban as much as the next guy (on paper it's pretty crazy) but I have to say, with my team with Sceptile and Greninja this thing never gets to set up on me. The only set I've seen as well is the sub dd set which is walled and phased by heatran or skarmory. I know other sets can be used but I've never seen any of these around the 1400 mark on the ladder, only sub dd. How often do these other sets show up? Do we really have the data to support a ban? Win/loose records? Once you figure out the set how hard is this thing to handle?

If a set is viable, usage shouldn't matter. If anything, if people start adapting to one set, all the Mence users have to do is use a different set and they can start catching people off-guard. If people just start packing Ferros and Skarms, users can start using Fire Blast. If they swap those for Rhyperior, Mence will just start using Hydro Pump. Sure, there will be some period where the Mega Mence users start losing, but Mence can pretty much adapt to any of its checks and start running sets that no one is checking. It's similar to what happened with Aegislash: it wasn't overpowered per se, but rather it bent the entire meta around it because its movepool allowed it to adapt to whatever was popular in checking it and beat those checks. The difference between Aegislash and Mence is that Mence is much faster, hits about as hard, and the sets that beat out its checks aren't nearly as gimmicky as Rock Head Aegi.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Now I'm for this ban as much as the next guy (on paper it's pretty crazy) but I have to say, with my team with Sceptile and Greninja this thing never gets to set up on me. The only set I've seen as well is the sub dd set which is walled and phased by heatran or skarmory. I know other sets can be used but I've never seen any of these around the 1400 mark on the ladder, only sub dd. How often do these other sets show up? Do we really have the data to support a ban? Win/loose records? Once you figure out the set how hard is this thing to handle?

Yeah, I use Sceptile and Greninja a lot. As long as one of those are inside, Salamence can't switch in. If it does find an opportunity to set up, I usually carry something like Rhyperior (completely counters any set lacking Hydro, which is all of them honestly).

Mence has never come close to sweeping me. Not saying it isn't broken. I've seen what it does to less prepared teams. But it's far from unstoppable as some would have you believe.

 

[SilverPT]

Mence has never come close to sweeping me. Not saying it isn't broken. I've seen what it does to less prepared teams. But it's far from unstoppable as some would have you believe.

You're basically using 3 mons to stop Mega Mence. Can you see why some say he's unstoppable?

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Yeah, I use Sceptile and Greninja a lot. As long as one of those are inside, Salamence can't switch in. If it does find an opportunity to set up, I usually carry something like Rhyperior (completely counters any set lacking Hydro, which is all of them honestly).

Mence has never come close to sweeping me. Not saying it isn't broken. I've seen what it does to less prepared teams. But it's far from unstoppable as some would have you believe.

Obviously Mega Salamence can't switch in on Mega Sceptile and Greninja, and obviously if it can't set up it's not going to be a problem. However, if Mence is out and they're not, after 1 DD Mega Sceptile and Greninja are going to be moot points since unless you have Scarf Greninja they can't revenge kill Mega Mence. Further, unless your entire team pressures Mega Mence, it only needs to manage to come out on one mon who can't pressure him to make it nearly impossible for you to win. At least if Zard X gets a Dance off he's easily outpaced and threatened by a lot of scarfers with Earthquake. In addition, if you're using a balanced team then you probably only have one or two defensive checks to Mega Mence, and you can bet that a good teambuilder will quickly identify these checks and account for them on his team. It's a really small list, so it's not hard.

Just to re-emphasize, it's not that people think Mega Salamence is unbeatable. The issue is that the Mega Mence user needs a minute amount of momentum (i.e. usually one dead check and one free turn) to go in his favor to pretty much guarantee a win.

 

[MrCookiepants]

You're basically using 3 mons to stop Mega Mence. Can you see why some say he's unstoppable?

Except I'm not? I'm using Sceptile for funsies and ninja is just standard offense. Rhyperior serves as a general bird spam check and rocker (which is mandatory on every team anyway). I'm not going out of my way to stop Mence at all.

 

[SilverPT]

Except I'm not? I'm using Sceptile for funsies and ninja is just standard offense. Rhyperior serves as a general bird spam check and rocker (which is mandatory on every team anyway). I'm not going out of my way to stop Mence at all.

Except those 3 mons also fit on checking/revenge killing/pressuring Mega Mence lol but hey, it's just a coincidence man.

 

[Punchshroom]

Except I'm not? I'm using Sceptile for funsies and ninja is just standard offense. Rhyperior serves as a general bird spam check and rocker (which is mandatory on every team anyway). I'm not going out of my way to stop Mence at all.

I would like to know what your other Pokemon are. Chances are MegaMence can set up on at least one of them, and if it is a Dragon Dance + Draco Meteor variant (not particularly uncommon on 3 attacks MegaMence), you could find your Rhyperior getting torn up on the switch and eventually lead to you getting swept, just like everyone else.

I can see why you would think MegaMence is stoppable; it's just that the cost of not giving MegaMence the chance to steamroll your team is very heavy as it deprives you from running Pokemon / sets that would otherwise give MegaMence boosting opportunities, and that would be a lot of them.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

I would like to know what your other Pokemon are. Chances are MegaMence can set up on at least one of them, and if it is a Dragon Dance + Draco Meteor variant (not particularly uncommon on 3 attacks MegaMence), you could find your Rhyperior getting torn up on the switch and eventually lead to you getting swept, just like everyone else.

I can see why you would think MegaMence is stoppable; it's just that the cost of not giving MegaMence the chance to steamroll your team is very heavy as it deprives you from running Pokemon / sets that would otherwise give MegaMence boosting opportunities, and that would be a lot of them.

My team consists of Sceptile, Gren, heatran, Thundurus, gliscor, and Gothitelle. Granted the last 2 have nothing to do with stopping mega mence but the other 4 can either phase it, stop it from coming in, or thunder wave it while still being useful in almost every other matchup. The other 2 are indeed setup fodder but every team has a member which is setup fodder for at least one sweeper. We have 20 pages of people saying that in general, mence can't be beaten without using weird crap but I'd like to think that my configuration consists of viable mons that not only beat every mence set but are also good against most of the field.

 

[TylerAvenger101]

Can someone summarize which pokemon are gonna be the most common M-Mence teammates? And is Lunar Dance Cresselia likely to be a big partner?