Item Mega Stones: Use on Multiple Pokemon

[azureleaf17]

I just wanted to bring up a topic that was touched on early in the discussions for XY, but has somewhat fallen out of favor: the use of two (rarely more) Mega Stones on a single team.

Mega Stones have made some competitively obscure/unviable Pokemon some of the most dangerous Pokemon in the game, such as Charizard and Pinsir. Even the least viable Megas (Banette, Ampharos, Abomasnow) are usable in OU, if only for a niche reason or if these Pokemon are your favorites and you really want to build a team around them. A couple of already excellent Pokemon got completely unnecessary buffs in their Mega Evolutions that have actually kicked their respective Stones clear out of OU.

The greatest limitation, of course, is that you can only Mega Evolve once per battle. So the question is: Is it ever worth it competitively to have two or more Mega Stone-wielding Pokemon on a single team?

To consider:
Cons:
~ The most obvious downside is that holding a Mega Stone and not using it is the equivalent of having a Pokemon with no item, essentially rendering a potentially valuable slot completely useless. (There is one very small benefit, though, over an itemless Pokemon — such a Pokemon is immune to Trick and Switcheroo, making it a safe switch-in to Choice Rotom and the rare TrickScarf Deoxys-S.)
~ On a similar vein, there are many Pokemon that are ONLY viable when they are Mega Evolved. For example, a non-Mega Charizard is dead weight in OU, being frail, rather weak by OU standards (especially if without an item, i.e. non-Mega Evolved with a Mega Stone), and easily dismantled by Stealth Rock. Having such a Pokemon on your team is nearly always a dead giveaway that it is a Mega Evolution; while not bad, this defeats the purpose of this thread.
~ Having multiple Mega Evolution-capable Pokemon is a strain on teambuilding, due to the fact that only a few Pokemon are usable in either form, and much less so when itemless. It often requires some more extensive thought and team support; again, while most great teams require this kind of thought, it is something extra to consider.

Pros:
~ The mere presence of multiple potential Mega Evolutions can create mindgames with the opponent. Since there are a number of Pokemon that are viable with or without their Mega counterparts such as Tyranitar, Scizor, Garchomp, and Gyarados, it always creates the question of which Pokemon will be the Mega. On a well-constructed team, such a bluff can be disguised very well.
~ Having multiple Pokemon capable of Mega Evolving allows for interesting flexibility within the game itself. Mega Evolving one Pokemon over another may depend entirely on your opponent's team, whether you need a bulkier Pokemon to tank hits or a more offensive one to dish them out.
~ As mentioned above, Pokemon holding Mega Stones cannot be Tricked or Switcheroo'ed, and the buff to the rampant Knock Off does not occur.

As you can see, having more than one Pokemon holding a Mega Stone on your team has immense negatives, and it may be easier to simply use one obvious Mega per team. However, for people who enjoy playstyles built around prediction and mindgames, this is an interesting strategy to consider.

Though this is a work in progress and I'm still messing with EV's and movesets, a double-Mega core I've tested is this one:

Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Waterfall
Dragon Dance
Rest
Sleep Talk

Scizor @ Scizorite
Roost
Swords Dance
Bullet Punch
Bug Bite

Landorus-T @ Leftovers
Stealth Rock
Earthquake
U-Turn
Stone Edge

Though it may be better simply to use one Mega and give the other an item like Leftovers, the beauty is being able to play the aforementioned mindgames with the opponent and Mega Evolve either Gyarados or Scizor depending on the opponent's team. The three have great defensive synergy and cover each others' weaknesses well, backed by natural bulk and double Intimidate. Depending on the opponent's team, Gyarados can Mega Evolve to offer an entirely different typing (Water/Flying vs. Water/Dark), or Scizor can Mega Evolve if Gyarados's retyping is not needed.

So what do you think? Are flexibility and the ability to potentially handle more threats with two or more Mega Evolutions on a team enough to offset the drawbacks of losing a valuable item slot and the limitations it places on teambuilding?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Frankly i find this idea pointless. If a pokemon is viable both with and without the mega stone it already create mindgames naturally and if it inst viable without the mega stone then youre just using shooting yourself in the foot. It just doesnt make any sense to me.

 

[Petrico94]

There's nothing wrong with having 2 megas but you will only be allowed to activate 1.If it's something like Charizard and Houndoom you should really only have one since the other wont have the bonuses needed to be in OU. If it's Scizor and Tyranitar you could mega evolve Tyranitar most games and Scizor for the games Tyranitar isn't needed and they could both work even w/o their mega or item.

 

[Ketsuban]

If a pokemon is viable both with and without the mega stone it already create mindgames naturally

Surely that's only if the team has more than one Pokémon which is capable of Mega Evolving but is viable both with and without the Mega Stone? Or is going without a Mega Evolution really that common? I tried to figure it out myself but I'm not sure how to read the usage data.

 

[dr00]

i was contemplating some of this recently. one of the main things i think to focus on are how your megas will be used reactively to the type of team you're facing and how it will give your team an overall advantage that it otherwise wouldn't have. i think that it should be stressed that your overall team would play differently depending on who you mega evolve rather than arbitrarily picking one to evolve, so every contingency must be assessed when designing a core of two pokemon that could potentially mega evolve. otherwise, as SmashBrosBrawl said, you're playing mindgames already by having them in your team.

for example, a simple core of Charizard (Charizardite-Y), and Venusaur (Venusaurite) would play very differently depending on who evolved.

if you evolve charizard-Y, you can utilize venusaur as a chlorophyll sweeper. if you evolve venusaur, you'll use him as a more defensive/support pokemon. charizard will most likely fit the same role either way, but the general approach of your team has changed from hyper offense to more of a bulky offense

i know that the above example doesn't really fit into the criterion of 'must be perfectly viable without mega-evolving', but i hope that the point made sense.


this type of strategy comes with its own problems, highlighted pretty well in the above example.
venusaur must be specially offensive as well as defensive, so there will be a problem with EV distribution as well as move selection
move selection will hamper charizard as well, since he'll probably want to run, say, solarbeam. unless you add sunny day users and/or ninetales into the rest of your team, you are better off simply mega-evolving charizard every game.

additionally, the pokemon that does not evolve will most likely want life orb / specs / some other offensive-boosting move, so you really have to focus on the flexibility of your team options and make your megamons viable either way (EVs / moveset / etc.) to make the strategy viable (imo)



in the example in the OP, i'm not sure i see the benefit of potentially evolving scizor and gyarados, when you could easily just pick one and give a more useful item to the other.
other than gyarados' typing change, they will play basically the same, and in each instance, you have either more physical offensive pressure by mega evolving.
garchomp could evolve and put out more physical offensive pressure as well, but also creates more specially offensive pressure. additionally, there is also a reason to keep him from mega evolving if you feel you need the extra speed.

 

[SoulRed12]

You don't need two pokemon with mega stones for mind games, you just need two pokemon capable of mega evolving, and only one gets a mega stone. Most items aren't revealed until the pokemon moves anyway (unless it's leftovers and it switches into damage or hazards). So if I have a Scizor and a Tyranitar on my team, only one of them needs to be holding its stone, whereas the other can just hold anything (life orb, choice band, etc.) and then the opponent doesn't know which of the two will evolve. You don't need them both holding a mega stone. Actually having two mega stones only helps by giving you the choice of who to mega evolve; it won't affect your opponent's decisions.

 

[Gehenna]

I'd find it more viable to just use two mons who could possibly mega, ex. AV Ttar + Chomp. You could play the Chomp like it's scarfed, then mega up late game to clean up.

 

[jpw234]

I played around with some double-mega teams earlier, but it's pretty hard to make work. Theorymonning, but I think that the best option for a double-mega core would be to have 2 lategame threats, one on the physical side and one on the special side. If you have a Mega-Pinsir and a Mega Char-Y hanging around, the opponent might get stretched reeeeeally thin trying to keep both of their counters/checks healthy enough to perform. However, the dearth of pokemon that are useful without mega evolving, and the fairly small number of specially-based mega-evos makes this a pretty unlikely prospect.

 

[Agonist]

So if I have a Scizor and a Tyranitar on my team, only one of them needs to be holding its stone, whereas the other can just hold anything (life orb, choice band, etc.) and then the opponent doesn't know which of the two will evolve.

Life Orb would make it pretty obvious, just saying.

 

[dr00]

You don't need two pokemon with mega stones for mind games, you just need two pokemon capable of mega evolving, and only one gets a mega stone.

i think this is another good distinction to make. the two-stone strategy inherently brings over the mind games from just one one stone + 2 mega-capable mons, so it must do something else in addition to that to make it a viable strategy since it's depriving an item from one of your pokemon.
it can't simply be a mindgame strategy, since you can achieve the same mindgame with 1 stone (with some exceptions like leftovers recovery, life orb recoil, etc.)

I played around with some double-mega teams earlier, but it's pretty hard to make work. Theorymonning, but I think that the best option for a double-mega core would be to have 2 lategame threats, one on the physical side and one on the special side. If you have a Mega-Pinsir and a Mega Char-Y hanging around, the opponent might get stretched reeeeeally thin trying to keep both of their counters/checks healthy enough to perform. However, the dearth of pokemon that are useful without mega evolving, and the fairly small number of specially-based mega-evos makes this a pretty unlikely prospect.

i was considering something like this as well. mega evolve to get more physical or special offensive pressure, but they must satisfy the criterion of being viable without mega evolving. i think the strategy will be a bit difficult to do right now, but will be a bit easier when when we get more mega evolutions.

off the top of my head, i think latias + gyarados / tyranitar / scizor / garchomp could be good when the latiasite is released. mega evolve latias for more defenses or mega evolve one of the others for more offenses, and the choice depends on your opponent's team, how the match is going, etc.

 

[Red Cat]

The only four Pokemon which can Mega Evolve that are functional in OU without their Mega Evolutions are Garchomp, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Gyarados. So if you are going to actually run two Mega Stones on your team, you would have to run two of these four to avoid having dead weight on your team. Even then, the issue is that these Pokemon are played very differently depending on whether they have a Mega Stone or not. For example, DD Mega Tyranitar is good, but DD regular Ttar is not. So you still have problems avoiding basically being down a Pokemon to start the match. While running two Mega Stones sounds interesting, it generally causes more disadvantages than advantages.

 

[SoulRed12]

Life Orb would make it pretty obvious, just saying.

Yeah, but as I said, it won't show itself until the pokemon moves. Which already requires the opponent to guess whether it will mega-evolve.

 

[Anty]

This is interesting as i have been in a position where i dont want to mega evolve my gyarados due to its origanal typing but most of the time i still will.
Really the only pokemon you might not want to m-evolve when your in a situation where you can:
Gyarados, typing
Garchamp, speed
Ttar, if sand is going to end next turn
Pinsir, moxie - doesnt matter because it sux without mega (sash stealth rocks lead FTW)

Overall, there is no point in having 2 megas as it is a waste of a useful item slot and with the op's example, i wouldnt want to have 2 physical settup sweepers, i would rather have that scizor either banded, or swapped out for a special attacker (esp since you have a lando-t).

 

[Mahmudkipz]

One great problem revolved around this strategy is that the most Mega and their "unevolved" form might play out differently leading to the issue of EV and movepool conflict. For example you would run Mega T-Tar as a D.Dance sweeper but a normal T-Tar is inferior in that role and is better off Pursuit trapping stuff. That means that you will have to either cripple your sweeping capability by carrying Pursuit, or just by not Me'voing because you already Me'voed another mon.

 

[Debury]

To be honest... If this was allowed then I am sure we would see a thread trying to allow us the right to use three mega stones per battle... Or a 7 Pokemon team. It isn't broken at the moment and having one Mega Pokemon is grand. It is better than not having any Mega Pokemon.

 

[The Leprechaun]

I think it can be competitive for you to have more than one mega stone but this concept only works when one or both of your megas don't change their role after mega evolving. You've already identified Scizor and Gyarados here. Both run effective sets which don't change whether they are holding a mega stone or not and can perform without the use of an item. EG, SD scizor will run the same spread when it has a mega stone or just leftovers/ metal coat/ occa berry/ w/e else. Often, the benefit of an item like occa berry or metal coat may not even matter so a regular scizor with on item will still be able to perform in a competitive environment. In instances like this, you may feel that running a second mega stone adds a fantastic supplementary win condition if your other mega turns out to be far less useful.

A good example of this is when running Mega-Mawile alongside Mega dd gyarados. If Mega Mawile has a good match-up against the opposing team then it can perform well and do it's job as a wallbreaker/ set-up sweeper fine and gyarados will perform well too. If, however, Mega Mawile has a horrible match-up and ends up being dead weight, the benefit of a mega stone for Gyarados is huge and far far larger than the benefit given by leftovers. Of course, running two megas is always going to be difficult and in many cases unnecessary. The only time it should be used is if one mega can overcome an impossible match-up for the other mega.

 

[midend]

zoroark mindgames again？lol

 

[Todd]

To be honest... If this was allowed then I am sure we would see a thread trying to allow us the right to use three mega stones per battle... Or a 7 Pokemon team. It isn't broken at the moment and having one Mega Pokemon is grand. It is better than not having any Mega Pokemon.

Not what he's saying. If you read the post, he doesn't mention once mega-evolving two in one battle. He's talking about having the potential to choose which pokemon to mega evolve by virtue of having more than one pokemon carry it's mega stone, allowing some flexibility. In theory.

 

[Draco Meteora]

I've been using Gyarados and Garchomp mega in the same team, choosing to evolve the one who better helps in the battle circunstances is very good.

 

[The Village Idiot]

The only four Pokemon which can Mega Evolve that are functional in OU without their Mega Evolutions are Garchomp, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Gyarados.

Alakazam is also perfectly viable, it may even be better without it's Mega.

 

[Hidious]

Alakazam is also perfectly viable, it may even be better without it's Mega.

Normal alakazam is worthless without focus sash (or life orb) It's pretty much the sole reason to even use it in OU. Mega alakazam is outclassed by normal alakazam. No real reason to use it as a mega.

 

[TheTraininator]

Mega alakazam is outclassed by normal alakazam. No real reason to use it as a mega.

I see this a lot, and I'm going to have to say that this simply isn't true. When running a Modest Nature, Mega Alakazam outdamages AND outspeeds Timid Life Orb Alakazam, gaining a few notable buff such as the ability to outspeed Greninja, Weavile, Jolteon, Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados and Jolly Mega Tyranitar after a DD, and Modest Scarf Politoed. The Trace ability also gives him a huge amount of niches, such as...

It can switch into Heatran's Fire Moves, Jolteon's and Thundurus-T's Electric moves, Vaporeon's, Gastrodon's, and Jellicent's Water moves, outspeeds Kingdra in Rain, Venusaur in Sun, and Excadrill in Sand, copies Greninja's Protean, MegAbsol's and Espeon's Magic Bounce, Magnezone's Magnet Pull, Dragonite's Multiscale, Gyara's and Mence's Intimidates, Crawdaunt's Adaptability, Mamoswine's Thick Fast, (dat Ice resist,) various Natural Cures, Scolipede's Speed Boost, Noivern and Crobat's Infiltrators, Mega Aggron's Filter, Reuniclus', Clefable's and other Alakazam's Magic Guards, many-a Serene Grace, and has many, many other uses with Trace as well.

So it is not outclassed by a long stretch. It does face competition from its regular counterpart, but don't underestimate it.

 

[rachet67]

I see this a lot, and I'm going to have to say that this simply isn't true. When running a Modest Nature, Mega Alakazam outdamages AND outspeeds Timid Life Orb Alakazam, gaining a few notable buff such as the ability to outspeed Greninja, Weavile, Jolteon, Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados and Jolly Mega Tyranitar after a DD, and Modest Scarf Politoed. The Trace ability also gives him a huge amount of niches, such as...

It can switch into Heatran's Fire Moves, Jolteon's and Thundurus-T's Electric moves, Vaporeon's, Gastrodon's, and Jellicent's Water moves, outspeeds Kingdra in Rain, Venusaur in Sun, and Excadrill in Sand, copies Greninja's Protean, MegAbsol's and Espeon's Magic Bounce, Magnezone's Magnet Pull, Dragonite's Multiscale, Gyara's and Mence's Intimidates, Crawdaunt's Adaptability, Mamoswine's Thick Fast, (dat Ice resist,) various Natural Cures, Scolipede's Speed Boost, Noivern and Crobat's Infiltrators, Mega Aggron's Filter, Reuniclus', Clefable's and other Alakazam's Magic Guards, many-a Serene Grace, and has many, many other uses with Trace as well.

So it is not outclassed by a long stretch. It does face competition from its regular counterpart, but don't underestimate it.

Jolteon, Thundurus-T, Vaporeon, Gastredon, Jellicent, Kingdra, Chlorophyll Venusaur, Sand Rush Excadrill, Magnezone, Crawdaunt, Noivern, Crobat, Mega Aggron, Togekiss, and Jirachi, are all pretty rare at the moment, so it isn't going to be tracing any of their abilities any time soon. Magic Guard is really a much better ability than trace, as its reliable, and allows it to use focus sash (which is really the only reason Alakazam is used. No one used Alakazam gen 4 before it had magic guard).

 

[Creative]

Something else that may not have been considered: a Mega-less team with Tyranitar, Scizor and Garchomp is perfectly viable, and creates huge mindgames throughout, especially if you use them to force switches and consequently make some good double-switches to craftily avoid making a move with your possible Mega. Keeping one as a Scarfer is also a good idea in a team like this, because after revealing that two are non-Megas, the Scarf would surprise opponents expecting a Mega-Evo (likely Tyranitar, because Scarf Scizor isn't great in this meta, nor is Mega Garchomp).

 

[jg1198]

I used this strategy in the first month or two if XY, and found it very useful sometimes. The best users of the strategy definitely being Garchomp, Tyranitar, and Gyarados. Scizor is also usable, but like keeping its item a lot more than the other three. Gyarados is the easiest to use with this type of team, as even on a team with only one mega stone, it often chooses not to mega evolve in order to keep its valuable flying type. For example a Gyarados would just DD without mega evolving if the opponent still had a full health conkeldurr on their team. Similarly, a garchomp would choose not to mega evolve if the opponent had a non-scarf kyurem(-b), hydreigon, or salamence on their team. Also, an opposing team may be well prepared to deal with a mega garchomp, but poorly prepared for mega gyarados, allowing you to rip apart their team according to their weaknesses. All in all, I would say this play style is difficult to pull off, but delivers great rewards.