Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Well looks like there was another massive assault of posts being nuked again. It would probably be a good idea to stop continually posting about how future megas are going to preform when they aren't currently a part of the meta. Mawile and Beedril should be out any day now, but Pidgeot and Steelix still have a while, so I just don't understand why we keep trying to theorymon this shit.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Just curious about some stall options vs Zygarde, that thing is a nightmare, while duggy was banded I tryed specs noirern(darco meator through sub for a quick 1 hit kill and it out speeds greninja by 1 point)

But it's normally switches in on mega sableye when they have a hazard setter in and I need to recover
 

Leo

after hours
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MPL Champion
Just curious about some stall options vs Zygarde, that thing is a nightmare, while duggy was banded I tryed specs noirern(darco meator through sub for a quick 1 hit kill and it out speeds greninja by 1 point)

But it's normally switches in on mega sableye when they have a hazard setter in and I need to recover
There's no need to resort to niche stuff like Noivern on Stall to beat it. In theory you should be able to pressure it with Tspikes and Clefable+Whirlwind Skarm should be enough to stop it.
 
I thought this was OU metagame discussion thread where we discuss on the current metagame, not the random undirected theorymoning thread about past suspect tests and unreleased Pokemon. Good grief.


In an attempt to actually produce some decent discussion, what are everyone's thoughts on balanced teams in the current meta? Has anyone had success using balance or am I the only one who is under the impression that the meta is completely dominated by hyper offence and stall?
 

Nuked

a moon full of stars and astral cars
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I thought this was OU metagame discussion thread where we discuss on the current metagame, not the random undirected theorymoning thread about past suspect tests and unreleased Pokemon. Good grief.


In an attempt to actually produce some decent discussion, what are everyone's thoughts on balanced teams in the current meta? Has anyone had success using balance or am I the only one who is under the impression that the meta is completely dominated by hyper offence and stall?
Balanced finds it pretty hard to stomach hits from all of these incredibly powerful attackers. It's hard to find counters to stuff like Pheromosa and Volcarona, Z-Crystals make lures much more effective and wallbreaking a lot easier too. Additionally pokemon like Clefable and Hippowdon are less viable right now compared to last generation, the power creep was honestly too much.
 

Hayburner

WHAT A POGGER CURRY!
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I thought this was OU metagame discussion thread where we discuss on the current metagame, not the random undirected theorymoning thread about past suspect tests and unreleased Pokemon. Good grief.


In an attempt to actually produce some decent discussion, what are everyone's thoughts on balanced teams in the current meta? Has anyone had success using balance or am I the only one who is under the impression that the meta is completely dominated by hyper offence and stall?
I've been testing quite a bit with balance actually (although some teams border into semistall) and mega sciz + toxapex cores are very solid as proven in multiple SPL games. There are a lot of options for teams to deal with annoying mons for balance right now with lando t, lele, and hoopa u of particular annoyance

One of the main drawbacks with balance right now that I have found is a weakness to stall, and being too reliant on zygarde as the only stallbreaker. Often you need to have an offensive rocker that beats msab to have any shot against stall as otherwise clef and skarm can freely come in without punishment.

Another issue, although mostly just being on the ladder, is that most balance teams get destroyed by baton pass. Mons like xurkitree + magearna can often overwhelm teams quite easily, however in tournaments baton pass is quite a bit less common.

From a teambuilding point of view, most balance teams can indeed cover most of the meta with mons like toxapex, mega-scizor, tangrowth, Zapdos and a plethora of other steels to choose from to deal with breakers like lele. One of the hardest threats to cover from a teambuilding point of view is SD rockium z lando t, as well as fire punch hoopa u unless you use tyranitar. On a few teams I have been using bronzong to handle both lele and lando t and it works well however severely hurts the stall matchup as bronzong is almost completely deadweight with msab on the other side. Greninja, another common balance breaker, is almost always handled by toxapex unless it's the rare extrasensory set.

I'm probably missing a lot of points that other people can bring up but it's 1am so eh anyways

Tldr: often not so good matchup vs stall, horrible matchup vs bp, can be difficult but can handle most to all threats from ho and Bo with good teambuilding.
 
I thought this was OU metagame discussion thread where we discuss on the current metagame, not the random undirected theorymoning thread about past suspect tests and unreleased Pokemon. Good grief.


In an attempt to actually produce some decent discussion, what are everyone's thoughts on balanced teams in the current meta? Has anyone had success using balance or am I the only one who is under the impression that the meta is completely dominated by hyper offence and stall?
It's not even worth running. You literally go into every game and HOPE your opponent isn't running something like Lele/Hoopa + Dugtrio to 6-0 you, but if they do, you have to pray your opponent is an idiot (unless you're running Bulu + Alolan Muk or something). There's too many pokes that OHKO anything bar maybe three counters.
 

Scribble

formerly Dartrix - Joker
is a Contributor to Smogon

I've been looking for some fun mons that are still usable, so I've been using Chandelure lately and I wanted to talk about it. It's a pretty fun mon in this meta full of the same threats that I've been finding some success with. Alola Marowak does a nice job at checking a lot of mons by virtue of its typing, and Chandelure can do the same, it just has an immunity to Fire rather than to Electric. It's a nice stop to Zard Y, Volcarona, and Pheromosa. Teams lack a Ghost resist, so switching in to Chandelure can be pretty tough, especially with the threat of Trick Scarf.


Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 160 HP / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind

This is the set I've been using. 96 Speed allows Chandelure to outspseed uninvested defensive Lando-T, and 52 Speed Tapu Fini. More Speed can be run if you want to target other threats, but these were the two I had in mind. Chandelure hits hard as hell, and facing it behind a Sub is even scarier. At +1, Shadow Ball is a clean 2HKO on Fini after Rocks. Energy Ball can be run over Calm Mind if you'd rather have the coverage, and Fire Blast can be run over Flamethrower if you like to live dangerously.

Set up fodder includes, but is not limited to:
Mega Venusaur
Amoonguss
Pheromosa
Tapu Fini w/o Scald
Volcarona w/o HP Ground
Mega Charizard Y w/o Air Slash

So if you're looking for some heat to use, give Chandelure a try, it's not that bad.
 
Honestly pretty sick of the OU metagame atm. It feels more like ubers to me more than anything. There are a few mons that are just way too overcentralizing, and to make an analogy, mega metagross is like p-don and phero/ash gre are like e-killer. Balance struggles to survive because of absurd wallbreakers like lele ... the whole duggy suspect was cuz of these mons and not duggy itself. I would love to see a suspect on mega metagross in the future to help make the meta healthier.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Lol these comparisons are ludicrous. Primal Groudon can relatively do whatever you want it to do in Ubers and it can legit be placed on every single team to make it better. While people may feel the same way with Lando-T, its really not the case as it usually is linear when it comes to roles it can perform. Yeh lando-t is almost used on most offense and bulky offense teams, but one can not compare it at all to the ubiquity of Primal Don. Pls stop.

Anyways lets try to remain on topic here, the new megas coming out on Tuesday seem very interesting (especially Mega Mawile if we are still unbanning that).
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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The Duggy suspect had absolutely no correlation with the offensive powerhouses running the tier, it was almost suspected 100% because of how it can make stall practically unbreakable. Even if Pheromosa, Metagross, Greninja etc weren't in the tier, Duggy still would have been suspected (or at least it should be technically) because none of those Pokemon really make Duggy's effectiveness on stall better or worse. Duggy can benefit a lot of Pokemon outside of stall, but that doesn't really matter when the main reasoning for Duggy's suspect had very little to do with Duggy teams that weren't stall oriented.

And yeah, I don't see why finding the right Uber analogy for current OU Pokemon is worth discussing. You should probably stop.
 
Lol these comparisons are ludicrous. Primal Groudon can relatively do whatever you want it to do in Ubers and it can legit be placed on every single team to make it better. While people may feel the same way with Lando-T, its really not the case as it usually is linear when it comes to roles it can perform. Yeh lando-t is almost used on most offense and bulky offense teams, but one can not compare it at all to the ubiquity of Primal Don. Pls stop.

Anyways lets try to remain on topic here, the new megas coming out on Tuesday seem very interesting (especially Mega Mawile if we are still unbanning that).
I'm particularly intrigued by how mega-mawile will do (I enjoyed trying to get it to work in ORAS ubers, though it was never that good in ubers, and look forwards to seeing if it can fit into SM OU) - do others think it will significantly lessen Mega-Metagross' viability, as it seems to me to be a good check to the standard Mega-Metagross builds.

I'm not sure if mega-beedrill will just be outclassed by Phero (which doesn't take up your mega slot), or will carve a niche for itself with slightly better coverage and ability than Phero?
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Beedrill has niche tools like knock off pursuit, drill run, it's a better user of poison jab and etc. And You could always run a special set on phesmo

It has to fight more with other megas for a slot.

Really am a fan of how lures are becoming more common place
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
I honestly think Z-moves are what's killing balance teams. Not just for the fact that blunder basically drilled it into our skulls in his '10 best Z-moves' video, but also for the fact that it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that having what can and most likely will be a 1-time nuke to a member of balances' common F/W/G core is not exactly what I would call ideal for it. Things like Firium Z Garchomp / MagDoom Heatran / Waterium Z Scolipede that can invite in otherwise positive MUs like Bulu/Fat waters/Terrakion etc. can put the dent they need to in balance so they can't spring back from without proper support.

With that - I think keeping stall in it's current state (or maybe retesting Duggy/Arena trap if necessary) is an ideal way to go. Balance players may find themselves alienated by the pace that BO/HO has to be played at (as balance isn't partularly good atm), and want something on the other end of the spectrum. The suggestion for a Mega Sableye suspect (a thus, endangering Stall) is the reason I was mostly abstain throughout the whole thing, and then started leaning towards ban for Dugtrio (although I am abstain again after reading the end of the thread). shaving less favorable bits off it - like trapping, which you guys evidently think is so degenerate to the point that it 'reduces skill' (alas I can't say I object with) - is fine, as it can to an extent be replaced (see the pursuit trappers a few pages back), whilst being healthier for the meta. The niche that Sableye has, on the other hand, CANNOT be replaced - not to mention how it ultimately got nerfed this gen via Burn nerf / Megas 'buff', no longer giving it 'Prankster Bounce' turn 1 / Z-moves / G7 power creep and more.
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Like it can't prankster burn mega gyrados who You know is going to use sub turn 1.

All the things that can now 1 hit ko it now also, it's most glorious days are gone but still a hell of a pokemon.

The meta is super scout heavy right now with a few possible boosters that are the most common Z move abusers.

Right now I feel like I'm running offensive stall with Magma storm taunt heatran, it really works away at Fini through out the match letting me get rocks up everytime they take them down
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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This is your last warning guys. No more Mega Mawile/Beedrill discussion for the love of god you have THREE DAYS to wait, that's it. If you guy's can't discuss anything relevant to the current meta until Tuesday because you're just so moist in anticipation for them then just please wait until the 7th to do so, just don't post anything at all unless it has to do with the CURRENT METAGAME. PLEASE.
 
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We're trying not to encourage baseless theorymon in this thread and in this subforum. You ("you" being the poster of a deleted post) may think it's fine to allow discussion on something that hasn't been released yet even though its release is imminent, but first and foremost we're trying to promote experienced based posting in this forum. A lot of times it's kind of hit or miss if something is theorymonning but in this case (MMaw and MBee) it's blatantly obvious they haven't used it because... you can't use it as of now, and our forum philosophy is that we aren't going to encourage that. You wonder why those bad VR debates rage on for pages? It's because people theorymon out of their asses. You wonder why suspect threads are terribly low quality? Because people theorymon out of their asses. So no, no discussion of unreleased stuff until its released. And that'll be the end of that.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Okey dokey... moving on then:

excadrill.gif


Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin

Standard Excadrill set, I guess - and a few lads and myself touched on it on the OU Discord. I can see this being a mon becoming more viable once bans like Pheromosa & Mega Metagross start to come into play (don't discuss the bans, It's probably safer not to here).

One thing that we WERE discussing is why on Showdown, the auto-EV setter thing defaults to 4 Sp.Def EVs as opposed to 4HP (I'm aware that both are negligible, I'm just OCD. Sorry...), and it does it for a lot of wallbreakers that run 252/252 in anything. Anyone got any ideas?
 

Leo

after hours
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
MPL Champion
Okey dokey... moving on then:

View attachment 78898

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rock Slide
- Rapid Spin

Standard Excadrill set, I guess - and a few lads and myself touched on it on the OU Discord. I can see this being a mon becoming more viable once bans like Pheromosa & Mega Metagross start to come into play (don't discuss the bans, It's probably safer not to here).

One thing that we WERE discussing is why on Showdown, the auto-EV setter thing defaults to 4 Sp.Def EVs as opposed to 4HP (I'm aware that both are negligible, I'm just OCD. Sorry...), and it does it for a lot of wallbreakers that run 252/252 in anything. Anyone got any ideas?
0 HP EVs usually gives you an odd HP number. By putting that 1 extra point on health there is a chance that you'll get an amount of HP divisible by 4 thus making Stealth Rock inflict more damage
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
0 HP EVs usually gives you an odd HP number. By putting that 1 extra point on health there is a chance that you'll get an amount of HP divisible by 4 thus making Stealth Rock inflict more damage
Not exactly saying much when you only take 3% from rocks lol. But yeah, I get what you're saying
Similar things can be applied to Belly Drum Slurpuff/Azumarill inc. Sitrus Berry, and what you take from that.
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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Stupid point about hyper-opitmisation that will never make any difference in battle incoming: it is most optimal to put the 4 EVs into which ever defense is lower if investing them in HP will make it divisible by 2 (which is not ideal 'cause of Natures Madness and Super Fang in addition to the potential for it to be divisible by 4).

Anyway, one thing I want to briefly mention is just how immensely good+consistent mulgokizary's Focus Sash spam team is on the ladder. It is capable of really doing a number on things that people like to use for cheap points on the ladder whilst not sacrificing effectiveness versus other teams due to just how surprisingly disruptive and powerful Focus Sash can be on an immensely offensively inclined build. The team gives very few opportunities to lay rocks once sash lead driller has done its job, and as such it is very hard to KO members of the team in one hit. It just seems to be the most consistent team I've been using recently, and it really speaks for how good an item Sash is in a meta with such immensely threatening frailmons like Pheromosa.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'm sorry if I am coming across as a dick to some of you, but no matter how close something is to being released, any discussion about something other than the current metagame is against the rules of the thread. That's just the way it is, and it's how it's always been. You can discuss future megas in this thread right here if you want. Here are some recent trends going on in the metagame if you want some ideas:

  • The massive influx in Toxapex outside of stall teams
  • Banded Zygarde 50%
  • Scarf Keldeo/Gengar seeing more success than Scarf Chomper recently
  • Gengar being god tier in general with other sets like Specs and Ghostium Z
  • Mega Scizor seeing high usage again
  • Pheromosa's recent massive amount of influence with its QD, Specs, and special AoA sets
  • Fini dropping a lot in effectiveness
  • People using Gyarados over Mence
 
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Leo

after hours
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MPL Champion
Unlike a lot of people lately, I don't find Tapu Fini to be less effective or overrated rn. Yeah, it gets worn down really quick and is relatively exploitable, but I think that's because Tapu Fini requires more aggresive plays to be effective. If you keep switching in Fini on rocks+U-Turn or let it get knocked off by Sableye turn 1 or try to switch it into stuff like Greninja before scouting for Protean it will most likely have a hard time staying healthy during a match. I think that teams that rely on Lando-Fini cores as their defensive backbone should aim to have fast paced games in order for Fini to perform effectively. Keeping the momentum and trying to break the opposing team early game is the key to success imo, giving your opponent too many opportunities to wear down your Tapu Fini even if you're playing it safe isn't going to work out in the late game if you didn't manage to break their team earlier and now you have a 20% Fini that won't check anything anymore. Yes, it's definitely more prepared for than it was earlier SM but I think people aren't giving it enough credit due to its poor performance in SPL and on the ladder in general. This is just my opinion and personal experience though, I may be wrong but that's how I feel it is
 
I think the rise of Banded Zygarde is interesting, but also logical. It's somewhat similar to Banded Dragonite from last gen, only...better in a lot of ways?

1. General Bulk/Typing. Sure, not having Multiscale sucks especially because Zygarde's ability is literally useless in OU, but Rocks and chip damage meant Dragonite couldn't abuse Multiscale as often as it would like (compared to say, a DD/Roost set). In addition, Dragonite is weak to Stealth Rock, really hindering the lifespan and ability to switch in repeatedly, and Zygarde resists Stealth Rock (while taking full damage from Spikes and Toxic Spikes isn't great, it's arguably better than being weak to Stealth Rock). Meanwhile, while Dragonite's 91/95/100 bulk is quite nice, but 108/121/95 bulk is substantially more (especially on the physical side), and not having a weakness to SR is huge.

Dragonite is also hindered by all four terrains, while Zygarde benefits from them: Burn and Toxic are great ways to either neuter Band Zygarde's power, or put it on a timer and decrease the effective bulk it has, and Misty Terran negates that (Dragonite can still get Burned or Toxic'd, both break Multiscale and either cripple BandNite or put it on a timer); Psychic Terrain is less useful because it stops your Extremespeed...but it also stops Ice Shard from Weavile and Mamoswine which can pick you off easily (Dragonite still gets picked off by Ice Shard, while not being able to use Extremespeed at all); Grassy Terrain gives you extra recovery and halves the power of Earthquakes thrown by Landorus-T (most often) at you, while not hindering the damage your Thousand Arrows does (Dragonite doesn't get the extra recovery while halving the power of the most common coverage move it uses on the Band set, Earthquake); Electric Terrain....well, Zygarde is immune to Electric attacks anyways and I guess you can't get put to sleep, but at least you're not hindered by it (Dragonite does not enjoy taking +1 Electric attacks in the slightest).

Zygarde is also blessed with an immunity to Electric moves, something very useful in a meta with stuff like Tapu Koko running around, while Dragonite can be Volt Switched on for momentum (obviously U-Turn still works and Koko runs that more often now, but still, Thunderbolt from Koko/Magearna/Lele are reasonably common). This all means Zygarde generally can switch into more stuff (better overall bulk) more often (no SR weakness).

2. Thousand Arrows. This is probably the biggest thing. BandNite hits noticeably harder than Zygarde, but it also could not make use of its secondary STAB, and while it had good coverage (Elemental Punches, EQ) and good priority (Espeed), not being able to use secondary STAB is never ideal. In addition, Bandnite was commonly walled depending on what it was locked into (Elemental Punches walled usually by Tran or Ferro, EQ by anything with Levitate or Flying, Outrage by Fairies, Extremespeed by anything bulky, TOGEKISS). Meanwhile, Zygarde can spam Choice Band boosted Thousand Arrows and hit everything, even if it's a resist. Stuff like Skarmory or the Lati twins or Landorus-T take valuable chip damage each time they come in on Thousand Arrows, and you don't actually lose much momentum if they come in (relative to EQ/Dragon spam, which things are actually immune to).

This, coupled with Zygarde's great bulk, lets it sit there as stuff like Skarm and Lando-T come in to check/counter you and get chip damage as they phase you out or something, instead of just losing momentum/being set up for things like Mega Charizard (both forms), etc.
 
The Duggy suspect had absolutely no correlation with the offensive powerhouses running the tier, it was almost suspected 100% because of how it can make stall practically unbreakable. Even if Pheromosa, Metagross, Greninja etc weren't in the tier, Duggy still would have been suspected (or at least it should be technically) because none of those Pokemon really make Duggy's effectiveness on stall better or worse. Duggy can benefit a lot of Pokemon outside of stall, but that doesn't really matter when the main reasoning for Duggy's suspect had very little to do with Duggy teams that weren't stall oriented.

And yeah, I don't see why finding the right Uber analogy for current OU Pokemon is worth discussing. You should probably stop.
If thats the case why wasnt duggy suspected in gen6? And I am pointing how centralizing the meta is right now and a balance should be made. Thank you for your comment tho
 
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