'Reliable' is a rather strong word. You have to play into having Tapu Lele locked in the wrong move.
Muk-Alola is the closest, though. Moonblast does not always 2HKO after Rocks.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3
- Thread starter Gary
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Muk-Alola is the closest, though. Moonblast does not always 2HKO after Rocks.
Ok, so im speaking this as a rookie who mostly only plays dubs/vgc and Gen 1 nowadays, but I assume now that MegaGross is gone the eyes are turned to Lele due to her worst matchup being gone? then again even VanillaGross might give her a hard time if she's not running Shadow Ball but excluding her he probably does meh against other common OU mons..
It's way too early to assume that all eyes are on Lele. There is a mon that is without a doubt unhealthy right now and has been even when megagross was allowed. So, I'd say it would be better to focus on that first and foremost.
Either way, it hasn't even been a day, there is no way to know how the meta will go with megagross gone.
6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
I was about to say. Saying Lele will be in any way borked when we were advocating for a Magearna rise not 2 seconds ago seems quite hypocritical in my eyes. Hell, I've 100% used specs over AV, and IMO Mag still wants to come in on Lele quite keenly (with Healing Wish support, as my personal recommendation).
On a different note, I find it interesting how in the case of MGross - the auto-mega speed buff; terrain abuse and drop in ex-key threats only justifies another 5% from last gen... huh...
Say, since gross got the boot, are we not going to open up a meta discussion v4? Or am I missing something?
On a different note, I find it interesting how in the case of MGross - the auto-mega speed buff; terrain abuse and drop in ex-key threats only justifies another 5% from last gen... huh...
Say, since gross got the boot, are we not going to open up a meta discussion v4? Or am I missing something?
Speaking of Muk-A. Without Gross and with Lele and the ninja running around. I'm wondering about a bulu+muk combo for them (bulu handles grounds and the terrain gives muk recovery, muk can actually do fairly well against the ninja and lele). At the very least Muk-A can spread Knock Offs and poison.
6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
That reminds me...
On cartridge, something interesting that I like to run on Muk-A is Infestation (which is contact for some reason). Having the Chance to poison on top of the trapping and 12% per turn (and staple Knock Off) is not only satisfying, but pressures bulky mons like Porygon2; Tyranitar and Buzzwole quite heavily.
I know this sounds weird, and I'll continue to look into it, optimizing sets regarding it in the future. Something to consider, I guess?
Set looks something like this, idek:
Muk-Alola @ Black Sludge
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Infestation
- Gunk Shot
- Taunt
Muk's main niche is it being a Pursuit trapper that also checks a wide variety of prominent special attackers mainly stuff like Volcarona, Zard-Y, etc. The Pokemon you mentioned outside of T-tar aren't really relevant at all in the metagame and running physical bulk on a Pokemon that is intended to check special attackers is extremely sub optimal. I don't see how this set has anything to do with the metagame, especially when that set lacks Pursuit and Assault Vest, which basically completely forfeits any niche that Muk has in OU. The standard set can still spread Poison just as effectively, especially when u consider that it usually runs Poison Jab over Gunk Shot, which has a very high chance to Poison pretty much anything it hits with the move when factoring in both 30% chances.
Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Atk / 112 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Rock Slide
- Pursuit
Just run this please.
Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Atk / 112 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Rock Slide
- Pursuit
Just run this please.
Can you explain the EV's?
The spread gives Muk some power behind its STABs as well as OHKOing Lele with Poison Jab. The Speed EVs are for Chansey, and the rest is put into its bulk.
6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
I would argue Infestation > Rock Slide (Infestation being the point I was trying to get across), but I see what you're saying Gary
Right, what else were we in the middle of...? Oh yeah, Lele discussion and counters (Muk-A being one of them).
Alongside Zygarde 50%, I've heard some discussion of Celesteela possibly rising in the metagame. With the supposed rise of Lele (leading to a rise in it's counters) after the MGross ban, I wouldn't be surprised if Celes' is now really good.
Of course, you have the standard Sp.Def sets with Leech Seed, along with Auto-Flyium offensive sets - making it flexible enough. It's also IMO the best user of Beast Boost, due to it's offenses and defenses being in close proximity to one another (101/103/107/101).
Tl;dr: What's everyones' thoughts on Celesteela rn?
Right, what else were we in the middle of...? Oh yeah, Lele discussion and counters (Muk-A being one of them).
Alongside Zygarde 50%, I've heard some discussion of Celesteela possibly rising in the metagame. With the supposed rise of Lele (leading to a rise in it's counters) after the MGross ban, I wouldn't be surprised if Celes' is now really good.
Of course, you have the standard Sp.Def sets with Leech Seed, along with Auto-Flyium offensive sets - making it flexible enough. It's also IMO the best user of Beast Boost, due to it's offenses and defenses being in close proximity to one another (101/103/107/101).
Tl;dr: What's everyones' thoughts on Celesteela rn?
To clarify 12 Speed is kind of a Speed creep since Chansey and Alolan Muk sit in the same Speed tier. But yeah what Gary has is miles better than...
...Infestation.
Rock Slide hits Volcarona (and Mega Charizard Y, I guess) which Muk can soft-check in a pinch thanks to its bulk.
do you guys belive that a-maro will receive a boost in viablity? mew and zapdos hype train doesn't seem to slow down(actually I don't think zapdos is A worth, but that's just me), tangrowth, volc(maro only beat this if volc lacks hp ground and have wasted the z-move, or if is unboosted), reuniclus and cofagrigus rose too. Medicham(holly shit how this dropped to A-, being below zapdos), Fini dropped(Just like a bunch of offensive checks from the B ranks, whoose aren't that meta revelante) meta gross ban, margarina probably rise and other steels rising in usage to check lele/magearna seems very kindly to a-maro.
I feel as if many people are overhyping Lele like crazy. The Mega Metagross ban does not do enough for Tapu Lele. Even though Tapu Lele lost it's most splashable answer, it stills has answers. For all of these people who are like Lele can break past its checks and counters with sufficient chip if it always predicts right. Ok, so if Lele predicted right against Mega Metagross and smashed it with a Specs Shadow Ball, after the Mega Evolution it does a clean 90, and before the Mega evolution it could simply die. Tapu Lele is too slow to deal massive damage to many more offensive builds, which the Metagame favors without a Choice Scarf, and with it, it has to deal with all of the Lele checks + have a reliable way to beat Volcarona defensive + have to have a mon to break fatter teams. Scarf Tapu Koko, for example, also does similar. Against stall teams, Shed Shell Tapu Lele certainly is a massive threat. If played well, it can get 2-3 kills vs stall and die to residual damage with Dugtrio's Pursuit + Stealth Rocks + Potential Spikes + Potential Seismic toss/ whatever hit. It does not deal as much insane damage to balance, but it can easily nail a kill. However, it takes some time to chip down answers like Celesteela. Shed Shell stallbreaker fails to do much damage to more offensive builds. Choice Specs can potentially get 1 kill + go down to Dugtrio against stall, absolutely obliverate balances, and deal some minor damage to offenses. However, predict against any of these playstyles become a pain, and if it does not lock itself into HP Fire, a sack into something like Magearna/Celesteela would work, giving them a free set up of Trick Room/Shift Gear/Autotomize. Even though Tapu Lele got a slight buff, it did not get anything valuable enough to make it some god in OU, and it does not come anywhere close to Protean Greninja. There are other Pokemon that got bigger buffs.
For example, Mega Pinsir appreciates Mega Metagross gone a lot. Mega Metagross was able to take any hit from mega Pinsir and outspeed into ohko with Ice Punch. If Mega Metagross smartly chose to stay pre-mega on Sticky Webs, it will be able to revenge kill Mega Pinsir reliably regardless of how many boosts in attack Mega Pinsir recieved. Mega Metagross is also solider than Tapu Koko as a Mega Pinsir answer, because Earthquake ohkoes any non Mago Berry set of Tapu Koko. Mago Koko has a high chance of being ohkoed by an Earthquake after stealth rocks, unlike Mega Metagross which just eats the Earthquake. Mega Metagross was not only the most splashable answer to Mega Pinsir, it was also one of the most reliable ones, albeit disliking taking heavy chip damage.
As another example, Tapu Bulu stands as a great one. Mega Metagross was able to reliably take even an All-Out-Pummelling from Tapu Bulu, and KO back with Meteor Mash. It also heals from Grassy Terrain, which Mega Metagross liked a ton. Having few viable Pokemon that can take hits from Fightinium Z Tapu Bulu as well as Mega Metagross and outspeed and OHKO Tapu Bulu left, Tapu Bulu thrives. It can break past many steel types much more reliably than Tapu Lele with a +2 All-Out-Pummelling koing them. It also does a number to stall, even though it struggles against more offensive builds.
For example, Mega Pinsir appreciates Mega Metagross gone a lot. Mega Metagross was able to take any hit from mega Pinsir and outspeed into ohko with Ice Punch. If Mega Metagross smartly chose to stay pre-mega on Sticky Webs, it will be able to revenge kill Mega Pinsir reliably regardless of how many boosts in attack Mega Pinsir recieved. Mega Metagross is also solider than Tapu Koko as a Mega Pinsir answer, because Earthquake ohkoes any non Mago Berry set of Tapu Koko. Mago Koko has a high chance of being ohkoed by an Earthquake after stealth rocks, unlike Mega Metagross which just eats the Earthquake. Mega Metagross was not only the most splashable answer to Mega Pinsir, it was also one of the most reliable ones, albeit disliking taking heavy chip damage.
As another example, Tapu Bulu stands as a great one. Mega Metagross was able to reliably take even an All-Out-Pummelling from Tapu Bulu, and KO back with Meteor Mash. It also heals from Grassy Terrain, which Mega Metagross liked a ton. Having few viable Pokemon that can take hits from Fightinium Z Tapu Bulu as well as Mega Metagross and outspeed and OHKO Tapu Bulu left, Tapu Bulu thrives. It can break past many steel types much more reliably than Tapu Lele with a +2 All-Out-Pummelling koing them. It also does a number to stall, even though it struggles against more offensive builds.
Marowak-Alola has got a little better, with Trick Room teams being decent, and offensively checking Pokemon like Magearna even though it gets blown back by a +1 Twinkle Tackle. It dislikes hazards being as good as they are, and few hazard removers. Stall teams can run Alomomola, which pressures it quite a bit.In addition, the dent of the pheromosa ban still has not gone from Marowak, as Pheromosa not only Spun for Alolan Marowak, but Alolan Marowak was also a great QD Pheromosa answer. Marowak is often not the best Mew check, for Knock Off prevents Mew from doing its job. It loses to OTR Reuniclus, and takes heavy damage from CM Reuni. It also hates the rise of threats like Tyranitar, which knocks it out with a faster Crunch/Pursuit traps it. OTR, the best cofagrigus set, destroys Marowak-Alola. To answer your question directly, no, I do not think that Marowak-Alola will recieve a boost in viability.
I've seen a lot of mew using psychc/ice beam over knock off, and when I listed reuni(rose because of CM) and cofagrigus, I didn't meant that he is a counter, but he is a check, and alomomola is very rare in stall, but puukumunku is a solid option over clefable that destroys, the hazzard problem is real tho, I've been using a team with a core of spikes gren+magearna+a-maro+pinsir, since phero meta, magearna+maro is Well known core very good, not only by TR sweeps, but they take care of each others answers, gren is here for spikes to make easier to magearna clean late game and pinsir is my answer to volc and chary, and is meant to punch holes in enemy team to make easier mag sweep, or even sweep by himself. But then I got a problem, a-maro needs hazzard control(and with pinsir addition to the team things got even worse) but I couldn't throw fini or another shitty defogger in my BO team, specially because I wanted to keep my spikes on the field, so I got forced to use fucking scarf excadrill, and I gurantee needing the help of scarf duggy in a team, is really awfull. Even then I think maro gets some meta trends in his side(I don't think he will rise in VR, but the game got a little easier for him)
So I think now would be a good time to discuss Greninja, likely the next suspect. While I am neutral about it, I think it would be worthwhile to discuss it. I believe that the metagame will begin to adapt to Greninja, as it will become the best thing arguably in the tier. For example, Tangrowth will increase in usage as a check to it.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 265-315 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 258-306 (90.5 - 107.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Unlike last generation, Tangrowth is rather common and there are multiple new threats this generation that can deal with this thing. The difference is the biggest of these: Tapu Koko, has improved in viability with the removal of Mega Metagross, who is blown back by EQ. Also, TR is rising in viability and Greninja being the fastest thing barring Koko in the tier means TR hurts a lot and forces it out. Also, Tapu Bulu is now a nice check to Greninja if it doesn't carry Gunk Shot.
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja in Grassy Terrain: 512-606 (179.6 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja in Electric Terrain: 492-578 (172.6 - 202.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Overall, Greninja is now top dog, and the metagame is ready to attempt to handle it. There are many things that will rise in usage without Mega Metagross, including things I didn't even mention like Keldeo and Magearna. At the same time, Greninja is rising in usage too. We will just have to wait and see how it plays out.
4 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 265-315 (65.5 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 258-306 (90.5 - 107.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Unlike last generation, Tangrowth is rather common and there are multiple new threats this generation that can deal with this thing. The difference is the biggest of these: Tapu Koko, has improved in viability with the removal of Mega Metagross, who is blown back by EQ. Also, TR is rising in viability and Greninja being the fastest thing barring Koko in the tier means TR hurts a lot and forces it out. Also, Tapu Bulu is now a nice check to Greninja if it doesn't carry Gunk Shot.
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja in Grassy Terrain: 512-606 (179.6 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja in Electric Terrain: 492-578 (172.6 - 202.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Overall, Greninja is now top dog, and the metagame is ready to attempt to handle it. There are many things that will rise in usage without Mega Metagross, including things I didn't even mention like Keldeo and Magearna. At the same time, Greninja is rising in usage too. We will just have to wait and see how it plays out.
Your calc for Tang's Giga drain is wrong because Greninja will be poison type when it takes it. Every Gren carries gunk shot and even if they didn't they carry ice beam. Either fucks (read: reliably OHKOs) bulu.
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Assault Vest Magearna is probably the best thing offense has for Greninja: 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 133-156 (36.6 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. So Greninja has to switch out. The only problem is that Assault Vest Magearna does not have reliable recovery. Note that HP Fire 2HKOs Magearna without Assault Vest (using the same spread). Scarf Keldeo can outspeed and KO but can't switch into Extrasensory. From the Smogon Pokedex:
Greninja has no true, guaranteed switch-ins because of its expansive movepool. Given that it is limited to four moveslots, it can be countered or checked defensively if Greninja is not carrying the appropriate moveset or move.
Greninja has no true, guaranteed switch-ins because of its expansive movepool. Given that it is limited to four moveslots, it can be countered or checked defensively if Greninja is not carrying the appropriate moveset or move.
With one layer of Spikes that 3HKO is a 2HKO, so no, its not a reliable answer
Check again.
AV Mag is a check to Gren, nothing more. It *can* switch into any of its moves bar HP fire, but it can't always stay in.
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Even better for Greninja, then. I'm starting to feel Greninja may be overcentralizing.
In the wake of Mega Metagross leaving, there's a power vacuum in the mega slot. There are no megas ranked S or A+, and only two ranked A (one of which is likely to drop). Will the mega slot be seeing more diversity, or will another mega rise to stardom in the wake of Metagross's ban? People keep talking about Lele, but the last two suspects have eliminated Mega Alakazam's most troubling offensive checks. Or maybe Mega Heracross will be it when it's released tomorrow?
1. It's released already.
2. I think that MegaZam is too frail to be super effective, as it is essentially a worse Deoxys-Atttack; it has nice speed and SpAtk but has paper defenses. I think that for megas, Mawile or Medicham will likely become the best mega, as MegaMeta was what usually outclassed both of them.
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