Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

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happy new year usage stats day everyone!

to make this relevant and not get infracted, what do you nerds think would happen to the metagame if we banned mienfoo (just theorymonning) (also rowan said we could talk about doing a minitour with no foo after splc was done)- i.e. what would rise in viability, what would drop, etc.?

to answer my own question, i think other fighting types would definitely jump in usage, especially pancham, since it can perform a similar role to foo as a bulky pivot. i also think pawn would see a spike in usage, but i may be wrong about this since timburr would also probably rise and it counters pawn really well. i think mons that made use of their fighting resists like larv would probably drop a little bit due to the lack of foo. all in all, i think its an interesting question to ask and i hope you nerds post something interesting bc im bored. (also not sure if this is relevant seeing as this is a hypothetical metagame but i feel like it leads to analysis of the current prevalence of mienfoo rn and how much it affects the meta)

will edit with usage stats once theyre out so yall can talk about what the current metagame as well
 

Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
IF Foo is theorhetically banned here's what i'll predict

-Pancham will rise since it can emulate Foo
-17 Speed will still be the clutch number
-Timburr / Gunk / Pawn will stay the same
-Fighting resists will stay the same as well
-mad nerdy salt all over the place
 

Good Morgan

Banned deucer.
forgotten but not weak - thats how i'd describe Houndour in current/future meta. people stopped running that many checks to birds which just happen to check houndour(running 3 of them during krow era was nothing weird - i mean chou/archen and other rockmons)
Our fire Doge benefits because of that fact - havent seen a single team that can handle houndour offense so far. running dual dog+sr aka specs pix and LO physical dour* has proven to really work wonders for me, and i know it sounds gimmicky even for my standards. I've tried both abilities and can't really pick the better one - both have their uses but i prefer early bird just to not lose vs random trace duck or foongus
its worth mentioning that houndour clearly oneshots or outspeeds/ties and 2hkos most of hazard removing pokemon so its easy to keep rocks which are needed to secure some KOs
There are many weird-yet-surprisingly-good moves for dog - sub, flamecharge, snatch, torment, pursuit (torment fucks over so many mons its not even funny)
the only failsafe switch to dog is timburr which barely avoids a 2hko from this set if its sdef oriented but we have vulpix for it - also timburr cannot switch on houndour more than once when sun is up

*just happens to outprioritize and ohko fletch after rocks with Sucker Punch + gets sun boost on Fire Blast which does a ton without sun even when im physically oriented lol

doge hype
o and before i forget - it eats alive all of these worthless chespins and other new overhyped stuff thats supposed to be good (but its not) so most of the time doge offense has matchup advantage, to patch water weakness i'd suggest frillish which is the most based ghost rn - user Corporal Levi can confirm imo
yes im alive
What set do you use for physical Doge? is it mixed or straight phys cause doge's phys fire moves suck a lil.

happy new year usage stats day everyone!

to make this relevant and not get infracted, what do you nerds think would happen to the metagame if we banned mienfoo (just theorymonning) (also rowan said we could talk about doing a minitour with no foo after splc was done)- i.e. what would rise in viability, what would drop, etc.?

to answer my own question, i think other fighting types would definitely jump in usage, especially pancham, since it can perform a similar role to foo as a bulky pivot. i also think pawn would see a spike in usage, but i may be wrong about this since timburr would also probably rise and it counters pawn really well. i think mons that made use of their fighting resists like larv would probably drop a little bit due to the lack of foo. all in all, i think its an interesting question to ask and i hope you nerds post something interesting bc im bored. (also not sure if this is relevant seeing as this is a hypothetical metagame but i feel like it leads to analysis of the current prevalence of mienfoo rn and how much it affects the meta)

will edit with usage stats once theyre out so yall can talk about what the current metagame as well
Yeah, basically things stay the same but you see more panda and possibly more Aipom as the scrubs find a Fake Outer
 

absdaddy

Banned deucer.
What set do you use for physical Doge? is it mixed or straight phys cause doge's phys fire moves suck a lil.
Note that i said "physically oriented".. It always runs same moves with physical evs instead of maxing special thus making phys weaker. Fire Blast, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Crunch = that's the typical physically oriented hound. And this is not a new set nor some kind of weird innovation.

IF Foo is theorhetically banned here's what i'll predict

-Pancham will rise since it can emulate Foo
-17 Speed will still be the clutch number
-Timburr / Gunk / Pawn will stay the same
-Fighting resists will stay the same as well
-mad nerdy salt all over the place
dont even give em ideas
 

Good Morgan

Banned deucer.
Note that i said "physically oriented".. It always runs same moves with physical evs instead of maxing special thus making phys weaker. Fire Blast, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Crunch = that's the typical physically oriented hound. And this is not a new set nor some kind of weird innovation.
sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was weird, i've just never used doge before and it sounds super fun with Specspix
 

absdaddy

Banned deucer.
sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it was weird, i've just never used doge before and it sounds super fun with Specspix
It is very fun - don't forget about patching that water weakness, and if you never ran LO dog before, like many other mons it should lower hp ivs to 0 - makes the final hp 19 and lowers recoil
 

Rowan

The professor?
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
http://pastebin.com/CwRCW4FZ

This is a pastebin that absdaddy has bought back to my attention, and it's from a post that Ray Jay made a while back, in September. So in this post I'd like to talk a bit about some overrated as fuck Pokemon that people are sticking to way too much which leads people to believe LC is overcentralising. It's not overcentralising at all, in fact I think it has such a wide variety of Pokemon with nothing which I feel restricts my teambuilding at all.

Here's the top 5 Pokemon in the 1760 stats:
| 1 | Mienfoo | 57.66603%
| 2 | Chinchou | 38.59675%
| 3 | Pawniard | 35.69857%
| 4 | Fletchling | 34.58831%
| 5 | Abra | 31.27053%

Of course the first Pokemon I want to talk about is Mienfoo. It got 24.57305% usage overall last month, but 57.66603% in the 1760 stats. I have often 'joked' with people and said Mienfoo isn't worthy of S-tier, but tbh I have always kind of meant it. Being the easiest Pokemon to put on a team, doesn't always mean it's the best pokemon to put in a team. For this, I'm gonna be comparing bulky mienfoo to timburr and pancham.
I feel that Pancham and Timburr actually have a lot more utility, despite them missing out on regenerator.
If you opt for Pancham, you still have the ability to pivot with parting shot, yet you also have the ability to bring set-up sweepers in easier, have the ability to lure/wallbreak poisons and fairies with coverage moves, and you have overall better bulk. You have a much larger unpredictability factor due to the fact it can even run 4 attacks or SD. Overall, pancham offers the same team support as mienfoo, and more, the only difference being mienfoo can regen back up.
If you opt for Timburr, you lose out on the pivoting ability, but do gain Mach Punch and Bulk Up. Mach Punch makes up for Timburr's lack of speed compared to Mienfoo, yet also helps your team not be weak to shell smashers, and other set up sweepers. Bulk Up means timburr can be a pivot early - mid game AND be a better wincon than Mienfoo could ever hope to be. Not to mention the overall bulk difference.

Of course, I'm not claiming Mienfoo is bad, I just feel it offers less utility a lot of the time compared to these two. Yet with Mienfoo, you can afford mistakes, because if you fuck up, you can switch out and it doesn't matter. What Ray Jay argues is that if you don't make these mistakes, you have 2 choices of Pokemon that offer more overall utility than Mienfoo, but you have to be a better player.

Another Pokemon, Chinchou. Now, many people know I have argued Chinchou for S, but I have since changed my mind. Chinchou is a great Pokemon against balanced teams, switching in on something it walls, and pivoting out. It's another 'jack of all trades' mon, like mienfoo. Ray Jay talks about Stall and Hyper Offense punishing safe Pokemon, and Chinchou is an amazing example of this. It doesn't have the longevity to withstand repeated attacks from powerful mons. Imagine pairing together Elekid, LO Staryu, and Fletchling. Chinchou walls them all but on the same team, it stands no chance and it will be broken through. It also doesn't have any power to break through a stall team. The best it can do is Scald Burn, or the rare Toxic, but no stall team is gonna be without a cleric. However if people keep using the standard Mienfoo/Chinchou/Fletchling teams that I see all the time, it will remain to be an amazing mon. You should all go out there, and build teams that punishes the use of Chinchou, because it's extremely easy to take advantage of.

Sash Abra: the most common glue mon ever. Why? because, again you can make a mistake. 'oh shit I let a set up sweeper get a boost, ah well it doesn't matter, I can send in Abra and it's fine.' Not saying Abra is a bad mon, but teambuilders often use it wrongly. Not gonna lie, it is cool to have a safety net, but like Chinchou is only really shines vs. balance. Abra can only check 1 thing max on a Hyper Offense team, and without a Life Orb, Abra doesn't have what it takes to break through stall teams either.

Fletchling, faces competition from birds like Taillow and Doduo. Fletchling does have a significant advantage in Priority Acrobatics and Swords Dance, which makes it a nice late game cleaner and revenge killer. It is still an amazing Pokemon, like Chinchou and Abra and Mienfoo are. But it also lacks initial power and doesn't have the ability to break through it's counters, like Taillow and Doduo do. The other 2 birds are incredibly hard to switch in, and have next to no switchins that aren't worn down easily, but no-one uses them because Fletchling is a safer option, because of it's revenge killing abilities. And, that is fair enough, I'm not saying don't use Fletchling, but think about why are you using it? If you want a set-up sweeper, alongside a sun check that's fine, but if you want something which can force out Fighting-types and Grass-types whilst giving you offensive momentum, then Taillow and Doduo can do an amazing job, often a better job.

Pawniard. It's chosen as an offensive Knock Off mon, whilst also a semi decent check to Normal-spam, and also a check to Psychic, Ghost and Fairy types. However, it can't do that too well tbh, Gastly and Abra are common HP Fight carriers, whilst other ghosts like pumpkin carry will-o-wisp, and other Psychic types are non-existant, except Goth who you can't really 'counter' because of its ability, and Slowpoke who has scald. Fairy-types can wear you down, Snubbull fucks it over with TWave and Earthquake, although it still remains a decent switch-in to Spritzee. As for it's offensive capabilities, Pawniard is still really good, Knocking Off Fighting-types is a fantastic for Balanced and Offensive teams, it can sweep weakened teams with Swords Dance, and also provide nice utility with Stealth Rock. To be honest, Pawniard is the best out of the top 5 mons, because it has a fantastic role as an offensive pivot on offensively inclined teams. But, like Fletchling, consider why you are using it. Consider the offensive options it brings to the table and how that supports your team. I always see Pawniard in bulky offense teams as a glue mon to certain threats, and it doesn't shine in that role.

The final 'safe' mons I would like to talk about are Ferroseed and Spritzee. This core dominates LC at the moment, because it's a good defensive core to stick on a balanced team to check the most amount of mons possible. They're safe choices for balance teams. But what can this core do vs. stall? Fuck all, Ferroseed has no offensive presence, and all stall teams have ways of dealing with hazards. Spritzee also has little offensive presence unless you're running Calm Mind, but,again Stall will have stuff that resists its mono coverage. Hyper Offense also fucks with this core when using it on a balanced team, because it just can't stand up to repeated attacks. Good offensive pressure will stop Spritzee from being able to heal Ferroseed, and the core will be worn down. Both mons are also easy set-up bait because of their non-existant offensive pressure.

Their usage in 1760 stats:
| 13 | Spritzee | 11.11427%
| 14 | Ferroseed | 10.50778%

tl;dr
These 7 Pokemon are staples on Balanced/Bulky Offense teams which are the most common playstyles in Little Cup. And they are all good against opposing Balance/Bulky Offense teams. This leads to a cycle where these Pokemon gain more and more usage and people claim Little Cup is stale and boring. It's up to the playerbase to change this though, and counter the common playstyles and take advantage of the average players who use these mons all the time. I have a few ideas of cores and Pokemon which can take advantage of these common Pokemon, but I'm not gonna talk about them now, I'll let you post about any you have. Also please keep this in mind during SPLC, no-one wants to watch matches of the same Mienfoo, Chinchou voltturn core with a defensive backbone of Spritzee and Ferroseed, with a late game sweeper in Fletchling and Abra chucked in as a glue mon.

I'll leave you with some things to think about your teambuilding from absdaddy in our Team Shop Conversation
absdaddy said:
there is a very thin line between being creative and being gimmicky and I am not going to cross it or use confusing stuff without answering 3 questions: why XXX(be it a mon, move or entire squad), what does it do(set)/how does it win vs whatever archetype(team), what kind of advantage do i get when running this over standard XXX (this fits both pokemon and a team as a whole)
abs was talking about gimmicky mons here, and people being creative for the sake of it. But it also applies to the standard mons, think about what they do better than the other choices you have when teambuilding, and whether they really are the best choices.

shoutout to absdaddy for not being boring af with his LC teams, and Ray Jay for being insightful as ever, and the best poster the LC forum has ever seen.
 
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apt-get

it's not over 'til it's over
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
http://pastebin.com/CwRCW4FZ

This is a pastebin that absdaddy has bought back to my attention, and it's from a post that Ray Jay made a while back, in September. So in this post I'd like to talk a bit about some overrated as fuck Pokemon that people are sticking to way too much which leads people to believe LC is overcentralising. It's not overcentralising at all, in fact I think it has such a wide variety of Pokemon with nothing which I feel restricts my teambuilding at all.

Here's the top 5 Pokemon in the 1760 stats:
| 1 | Mienfoo | 57.66603%
| 2 | Chinchou | 38.59675%
| 3 | Pawniard | 35.69857%
| 4 | Fletchling | 34.58831%
| 5 | Abra | 31.27053%

Of course the first Pokemon I want to talk about is Mienfoo. It got 24.57305% usage overall last month, but 57.66603% in the 1760 stats. I have often 'joked' with people and said Mienfoo isn't worthy of S-tier, but tbh I have always kind of meant it. Being the easiest Pokemon to put on a team, doesn't always mean it's the best pokemon to put in a team. For this, I'm gonna be comparing bulky mienfoo to timburr and pancham.
I feel that Pancham and Timburr actually have a lot more utility, despite them missing out on regenerator.
If you opt for Pancham, you still have the ability to pivot with parting shot, yet you also have the ability to bring set-up sweepers in easier, have the ability to lure/wallbreak poisons and fairies with coverage moves, and you have overall better bulk. You have a much larger unpredictability factor due to the fact it can even run 4 attacks or SD. Overall, pancham offers the same team support as mienfoo, and more, the only difference being mienfoo can regen back up.
If you opt for Timburr, you lose out on the pivoting ability, but do gain Mach Punch and Bulk Up. Mach Punch makes up for Timburr's lack of speed compared to Mienfoo, yet also helps your team not be weak to shell smashers, and other set up sweepers. Bulk Up means timburr can be a pivot early - mid game AND be a better wincon than Mienfoo could ever hope to be. Not to mention the overall bulk difference.

Of course, I'm not claiming Mienfoo is bad, I just feel it offers less utility a lot of the time compared to these two. Yet with Mienfoo, you can afford mistakes, because if you fuck up, you can switch out and it doesn't matter. What Ray Jay argues is that if you don't make these mistakes, you have 2 choices of Pokemon that offer more overall utility than Mienfoo, but you have to be a better player.

Another Pokemon, Chinchou. Now, many people know I have argued Chinchou for S, but I have since changed my mind. Chinchou is a great Pokemon against balanced teams, switching in on something it walls, and pivoting out. It's another 'jack of all trades' mon, like mienfoo. Ray Jay talks about Stall and Hyper Offense punishing safe Pokemon, and Chinchou is an amazing example of this. It doesn't have the longevity to withstand repeated attacks from powerful mons. Imagine pairing together Elekid, LO Staryu, and Fletchling. Chinchou walls them all but on the same team, it stands no chance and it will be broken through. It also doesn't have any power to break through a stall team. The best it can do is Scald Burn, or the rare Toxic, but no stall team is gonna be without a cleric. However if people keep using the standard Mienfoo/Chinchou/Fletchling teams that I see all the time, it will remain to be an amazing mon. You should all go out there, and build teams that punishes the use of Chinchou, because it's extremely easy to take advantage of.

Sash Abra: the most common glue mon ever. Why? because, again you can make a mistake. 'oh shit I let a set up sweeper get a boost, ah well it doesn't matter, I can send in Abra and it's fine.' Not saying Abra is a bad mon, but teambuilders often use it wrongly. Not gonna lie, it is cool to have a safety net, but like Chinchou is only really shines vs. balance. Abra can only check 1 thing max on a Hyper Offense team, and without a Life Orb, Abra doesn't have what it takes to break through stall teams either.

Fletchling, faces competition from birds like Taillow and Doduo. Fletchling does have a significant advantage in Priority Acrobatics and Swords Dance, which makes it a nice late game cleaner and revenge killer. It is still an amazing Pokemon, like Chinchou and Abra and Mienfoo are. But it also lacks initial power and doesn't have the ability to break through it's counters, like Taillow and Doduo do. The other 2 birds are incredibly hard to switch in, and have next to no switchins that aren't worn down easily, but no-one uses them because Fletchling is a safer option, because of it's revenge killing abilities. And, that is fair enough, I'm not saying don't use Fletchling, but think about why are you using it? If you want a set-up sweeper, alongside a sun check that's fine, but if you want something which can force out Fighting-types and Grass-types whilst giving you offensive momentum, then Taillow and Doduo can do an amazing job, often a better job.

Pawniard. It's chosen as an offensive Knock Off mon, whilst also a semi decent check to Normal-spam, and also a check to Psychic, Ghost and Fairy types. However, it can't do that too well tbh, Gastly and Abra are common HP Fight carriers, whilst other ghosts like pumpkin carry will-o-wisp, and other Psychic types are non-existant, except Goth who you can't really 'counter' because of its ability, and Slowpoke who has scald. Fairy-types can wear you down, Snubbull fucks it over with TWave and Earthquake, although it still remains a decent switch-in to Spritzee. As for it's offensive capabilities, Pawniard is still really good, Knocking Off Fighting-types is a fantastic for Balanced and Offensive teams, it can sweep weakened teams with Swords Dance, and also provide nice utility with Stealth Rock. To be honest, Pawniard is the best out of the top 5 mons, because it has a fantastic role as an offensive pivot on offensively inclined teams. But, like Fletchling, consider why you are using it. Consider the offensive options it brings to the table and how that supports your team. I always see Pawniard in bulky offense teams as a glue mon to certain threats, and it doesn't shine in that role.

The final 'safe' mons I would like to talk about are Ferroseed and Spritzee. This core dominates LC at the moment, because it's a good defensive core to stick on a balanced team to check the most amount of mons possible. They're safe choices for balance teams. But what can this core do vs. stall? Fuck all, Ferroseed has no offensive presence, and all stall teams have ways of dealing with hazards. Spritzee also has little offensive presence unless you're running Calm Mind, but,again Stall will have stuff that resists its mono coverage. Hyper Offense also fucks with this core when using it on a balanced team, because it just can't stand up to repeated attacks. Good offensive pressure will stop Spritzee from being able to heal Ferroseed, and the core will be worn down. Both mons are also easy set-up bait because of their non-existant offensive pressure.

Their usage in 1760 stats:
| 13 | Spritzee | 11.11427%
| 14 | Ferroseed | 10.50778%

tl;dr
These 7 Pokemon are staples on Balanced/Bulky Offense teams which are the most common playstyles in Little Cup. And they are all good against opposing Balance/Bulky Offense teams. This leads to a cycle where these Pokemon gain more and more usage and people claim Little Cup is stale and boring. It's up to the playerbase to change this though, and counter the common playstyles and take advantage of the average players who use these mons all the time. I have a few ideas of cores and Pokemon which can take advantage of these common Pokemon, but I'm not gonna talk about them now, I'll let you post about any you have. Also please keep this in mind during SPLC, no-one wants to watch matches of the same Mienfoo, Chinchou voltturn core with a defensive backbone of Spritzee and Ferroseed, with a late game sweeper in Fletchling and Abra chucked in as a glue mon.

I'll leave you with some things to think about your teambuilding from absdaddy in our Team Shop Conversation


abs was talking about gimmicky mons here, and people being creative for the sake of it. But it also applies to the standard mons, think about what they do better than the other choices you have when teambuilding, and whether they really are the best choices.

shoutout to absdaddy for not being boring af with his LC teams, and Ray Jay for being insightful as ever, and the best poster the LC forum has ever seen.
I'd just like to mention that, while you're right on many aspects, you forgot to mention some of the situations in which mienfoo and chinchou are used, namely voltturn.

17 speed Mienfoo is an amazing pivot on these teams, as the superior speed really allows it to shine as one thing: a Pawniard counter. A lot of team archetypes are often weak to SD pawniard, while offense is generally weak to scarf. Even timburr and Pancham get weakened by repeated Iron Heads and Knock Offs: while Timburr can mach punch, Pancham can't really do anything. Even if Mienfoo gets knocked off, its speed stat means you will still be able to check Pawniard and do a lot more with it.

Access to U-turn is great as well, since it makes Mienfoo able to deal damage while switching, which means you can threaten both your current opponent and a potential switch-in. While Parting Shot sounds nice too, the downside is that any damage taken before using it (remember, Pancham is slow) won't be able to be recovered: Mienfoo's regenerator is great in these situations. On a volt-turn team or a fast offense, Mienfoo is usually the better mon (I don't understand why people use slow mons on fast-paced teams), although I'm totally agreeing with you concerning slower teams.

Chinchou is also great on volt-turn and fast offense, as it provides four things: a powerful water STAB, a decently powerful pivoting with a good offensive typing, Heal Bell, and key resists that allow you to prevent a sweep mid-game. Chinchou only really shines as an offensive support, not as a slow "wall" that relies on RestTalk to live. It applies a lot of pressure on offense and stall/balance alike, and has few things that prevent it from doing its job (namely Porygon and itself). 17 speed with berry juice is really the only viable set in this meta, and it definitely shouldn't be your main bird / water check. Chinchou is meant to support its team, maybe dying in the process, but having weakened the opponent enough and having provided enough support and switching opportunities thanks to Volt Switch.

Also, you should emphasize that SD Pawn is really the best set in this meta. Utility sets on Bulky Offense / Balance make me want to puke, personally: I don't see how you could not run SD on Pawn.

EDIT: Vulpix is amazing in this meta btw, like A+ threat. ALWAYS HAVE A VULPIX CHECK and remember that no SDef Mienfoo, RestTalk Chinchou, or Cleric Spritzee is gonna stop it (Enjoy the OHKO on the former and 2HKO on the latters Without Hazards)
I've been running a wallbreaking / sweeping core of Vulpix/Fletchling which absolutely destroys everything in this meta. I've also heard that Houndour + Vulpix is unstoppable. only Eviolite Archen and Munchlax can escape the 2HKO from Vulpixwithout hazards, and even then...
196 SpA Life Orb Vulpix Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Archen in Sun: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

For the few things that stop this core (fast revenge killers, Rock-types, Skrelp, sashers / sturdymons), scarf SturdyMag and Croagunk effectively deal with them.

More people shoud run Scarf Magnemite, by the way, it's one of the best special attackers right now. Sturdy is the icing on the cake, allowing you to potentially stop a sweep even better than Abra.
 
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http://pastebin.com/CwRCW4FZ

This is a pastebin that absdaddy has bought back to my attention, and it's from a post that Ray Jay made a while back, in September. So in this post I'd like to talk a bit about some overrated as fuck Pokemon that people are sticking to way too much which leads people to believe LC is overcentralising. It's not overcentralising at all, in fact I think it has such a wide variety of Pokemon with nothing which I feel restricts my teambuilding at all.

Here's the top 5 Pokemon in the 1760 stats:
| 1 | Mienfoo | 57.66603%
| 2 | Chinchou | 38.59675%
| 3 | Pawniard | 35.69857%
| 4 | Fletchling | 34.58831%
| 5 | Abra | 31.27053%

Of course the first Pokemon I want to talk about is Mienfoo. It got 24.57305% usage overall last month, but 57.66603% in the 1760 stats. I have often 'joked' with people and said Mienfoo isn't worthy of S-tier, but tbh I have always kind of meant it. Being the easiest Pokemon to put on a team, doesn't always mean it's the best pokemon to put in a team. For this, I'm gonna be comparing bulky mienfoo to timburr and pancham.
I feel that Pancham and Timburr actually have a lot more utility, despite them missing out on regenerator.
If you opt for Pancham, you still have the ability to pivot with parting shot, yet you also have the ability to bring set-up sweepers in easier, have the ability to lure/wallbreak poisons and fairies with coverage moves, and you have overall better bulk. You have a much larger unpredictability factor due to the fact it can even run 4 attacks or SD. Overall, pancham offers the same team support as mienfoo, and more, the only difference being mienfoo can regen back up.
If you opt for Timburr, you lose out on the pivoting ability, but do gain Mach Punch and Bulk Up. Mach Punch makes up for Timburr's lack of speed compared to Mienfoo, yet also helps your team not be weak to shell smashers, and other set up sweepers. Bulk Up means timburr can be a pivot early - mid game AND be a better wincon than Mienfoo could ever hope to be. Not to mention the overall bulk difference.

Of course, I'm not claiming Mienfoo is bad, I just feel it offers less utility a lot of the time compared to these two. Yet with Mienfoo, you can afford mistakes, because if you fuck up, you can switch out and it doesn't matter. What Ray Jay argues is that if you don't make these mistakes, you have 2 choices of Pokemon that offer more overall utility than Mienfoo, but you have to be a better player.

Another Pokemon, Chinchou. Now, many people know I have argued Chinchou for S, but I have since changed my mind. Chinchou is a great Pokemon against balanced teams, switching in on something it walls, and pivoting out. It's another 'jack of all trades' mon, like mienfoo. Ray Jay talks about Stall and Hyper Offense punishing safe Pokemon, and Chinchou is an amazing example of this. It doesn't have the longevity to withstand repeated attacks from powerful mons. Imagine pairing together Elekid, LO Staryu, and Fletchling. Chinchou walls them all but on the same team, it stands no chance and it will be broken through. It also doesn't have any power to break through a stall team. The best it can do is Scald Burn, or the rare Toxic, but no stall team is gonna be without a cleric. However if people keep using the standard Mienfoo/Chinchou/Fletchling teams that I see all the time, it will remain to be an amazing mon. You should all go out there, and build teams that punishes the use of Chinchou, because it's extremely easy to take advantage of.

Sash Abra: the most common glue mon ever. Why? because, again you can make a mistake. 'oh shit I let a set up sweeper get a boost, ah well it doesn't matter, I can send in Abra and it's fine.' Not saying Abra is a bad mon, but teambuilders often use it wrongly. Not gonna lie, it is cool to have a safety net, but like Chinchou is only really shines vs. balance. Abra can only check 1 thing max on a Hyper Offense team, and without a Life Orb, Abra doesn't have what it takes to break through stall teams either.

Fletchling, faces competition from birds like Taillow and Doduo. Fletchling does have a significant advantage in Priority Acrobatics and Swords Dance, which makes it a nice late game cleaner and revenge killer. It is still an amazing Pokemon, like Chinchou and Abra and Mienfoo are. But it also lacks initial power and doesn't have the ability to break through it's counters, like Taillow and Doduo do. The other 2 birds are incredibly hard to switch in, and have next to no switchins that aren't worn down easily, but no-one uses them because Fletchling is a safer option, because of it's revenge killing abilities. And, that is fair enough, I'm not saying don't use Fletchling, but think about why are you using it? If you want a set-up sweeper, alongside a sun check that's fine, but if you want something which can force out Fighting-types and Grass-types whilst giving you offensive momentum, then Taillow and Doduo can do an amazing job, often a better job.

Pawniard. It's chosen as an offensive Knock Off mon, whilst also a semi decent check to Normal-spam, and also a check to Psychic, Ghost and Fairy types. However, it can't do that too well tbh, Gastly and Abra are common HP Fight carriers, whilst other ghosts like pumpkin carry will-o-wisp, and other Psychic types are non-existant, except Goth who you can't really 'counter' because of its ability, and Slowpoke who has scald. Fairy-types can wear you down, Snubbull fucks it over with TWave and Earthquake, although it still remains a decent switch-in to Spritzee. As for it's offensive capabilities, Pawniard is still really good, Knocking Off Fighting-types is a fantastic for Balanced and Offensive teams, it can sweep weakened teams with Swords Dance, and also provide nice utility with Stealth Rock. To be honest, Pawniard is the best out of the top 5 mons, because it has a fantastic role as an offensive pivot on offensively inclined teams. But, like Fletchling, consider why you are using it. Consider the offensive options it brings to the table and how that supports your team. I always see Pawniard in bulky offense teams as a glue mon to certain threats, and it doesn't shine in that role.

The final 'safe' mons I would like to talk about are Ferroseed and Spritzee. This core dominates LC at the moment, because it's a good defensive core to stick on a balanced team to check the most amount of mons possible. They're safe choices for balance teams. But what can this core do vs. stall? Fuck all, Ferroseed has no offensive presence, and all stall teams have ways of dealing with hazards. Spritzee also has little offensive presence unless you're running Calm Mind, but,again Stall will have stuff that resists its mono coverage. Hyper Offense also fucks with this core when using it on a balanced team, because it just can't stand up to repeated attacks. Good offensive pressure will stop Spritzee from being able to heal Ferroseed, and the core will be worn down. Both mons are also easy set-up bait because of their non-existant offensive pressure.

Their usage in 1760 stats:
| 13 | Spritzee | 11.11427%
| 14 | Ferroseed | 10.50778%

tl;dr
These 7 Pokemon are staples on Balanced/Bulky Offense teams which are the most common playstyles in Little Cup. And they are all good against opposing Balance/Bulky Offense teams. This leads to a cycle where these Pokemon gain more and more usage and people claim Little Cup is stale and boring. It's up to the playerbase to change this though, and counter the common playstyles and take advantage of the average players who use these mons all the time. I have a few ideas of cores and Pokemon which can take advantage of these common Pokemon, but I'm not gonna talk about them now, I'll let you post about any you have. Also please keep this in mind during SPLC, no-one wants to watch matches of the same Mienfoo, Chinchou voltturn core with a defensive backbone of Spritzee and Ferroseed, with a late game sweeper in Fletchling and Abra chucked in as a glue mon.

I'll leave you with some things to think about your teambuilding from absdaddy in our Team Shop Conversation


abs was talking about gimmicky mons here, and people being creative for the sake of it. But it also applies to the standard mons, think about what they do better than the other choices you have when teambuilding, and whether they really are the best choices.

shoutout to absdaddy for not being boring af with his LC teams, and Ray Jay for being insightful as ever, and the best poster the LC forum has ever seen.
I think that we need to do a better job of educating players on how to build teams other then bulky offense and balanced. In my experience, most players build this style of team because its one of the easiest styles to build. New players to LC already have a tough enough time getting use to the intricacies of the meta, so they often feel most comfortable using these safe mons in a balanced team. If we expand upon threads like your teambuilding guide Rowan and use our teambuilding workshops to provide information on building for a variety of playstyles. I think we could start to shake up those ladder statistics a little bit.
 
I think that we need to do a better job of educating players on how to build teams other then bulky offense and balanced. In my experience, most players build this style of team because its one of the easiest styles to build. New players to LC already have a tough enough time getting use to the intricacies of the meta, so they often feel most comfortable using these safe mons in a balanced team. If we expand upon threads like your teambuilding guide Rowan and use our teambuilding workshops to provide information on building for a variety of playstyles. I think we could start to shake up those ladder statistics a little bit.
I definitely agree with this, and I'd also like to point out that we could revive the Good Cores thread, because that can provide a good basis for different team types to build around. For example, cores like FerroSpritz can be posted there, which are the basis for different team types than bulky offense, balance, and voltturn. Obviously most people know FerroSpritz by now, but it's just an example- my point is that by providing cores for different team types than the usual, we can help diversify the metagame. I PMed Bri about whether or not she was going to revive the thread, and she said she was planning on updating it for ORAS, but unfortunately she hasn't gotten around to it yet.
 

Rowan

The professor?
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Yeah apt-get, fire spam is pretty cool, vulpix is amazing and fire spam literally shits on standard ferro/spritz/chou teams taking advantage of ferro+spritz and easily wearing down chinchou, also ponyta is amazing at fucking with everything right now, except opposing toxic ponys, which annoyingly stop you.

And yes, Chinchou and Mienfoo are good mons, and tbh I was exaggerating my point about Mienfoo just to be a bit controversial. But I still often find teams, that include Mienfoo that get absolutely wrecked by Omanyte, when all they need to do to patch it up, is run Timburr>Mienfoo. You gotta make sure you use it for the right reasons, like I've been saying and if you want it with voltturn, that's cool, but not if it makes your team weaker to offensive threats (timburr is often better in this situation), or if your team struggles to break through stall (pancham is often better in this situation). Pancham and Timburr support you in a wider variety of ways, but you don't always need this support, in which case Mienfoo is still very good. And yeah, Mienfoo is the much more reliable Pawniard counter.
 

Camden

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I think that we need to do a better job of educating players on how to build teams other then bulky offense and balanced. In my experience, most players build this style of team because its one of the easiest styles to build. New players to LC already have a tough enough time getting use to the intricacies of the meta, so they often feel most comfortable using these safe mons in a balanced team. If we expand upon threads like your teambuilding guide Rowan and use our teambuilding workshops to provide information on building for a variety of playstyles. I think we could start to shake up those ladder statistics a little bit.
Annnnd the problem with that is that most other team styles have a less than favourable match-up against Bulky Offense and Balance, and that ultimately comes back to these Pokemon being extremely safe choices. The reason why HO isn't as good in this meta is because it relies on a decent level of prediction and risk-taking, and while being able to properly to predict is something every good player should be able to do, sometimes it just doesn't work like that. In many situations, you end up in 50/50 situations, which aren't at all prediction based, unless your opponent is blatantly obvious in their motives. In those 50/50 situations, more often than not, you can afford to fuck up because your still have a fallback, but in HO, you don't really have that option. You lose the coinflip, and bam, your momentum is gone and you have to start over. Personally, I love HO and I'm highly considering just playing it exclusively, but unfortunately, you have those players that you just can't predict, not because they're that good of a player, but sometimes they don't put any thought into what they're doing. How do you predict someone that essentially plays by chance? I will admit though, HO is still one of the best playstyles in LC besides the two I mentioned, just because it puts incredible amounts of pressure on your opponent, and LC has so many powerful offensive threats.

So what's the issue with Stall? It just can't do anything to BO or balance teams. While HO doesn't have the backbone to fight them as well as it could, Stall lacks the power to put any sort of pressure on, and not to mention Knock Off/VoltTurn is too easy to just spam. Not really sure what else to say there.
 

Rowan

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Annnnd the problem with that is that most other team styles have a less than favourable match-up against Bulky Offense and Balance, and that ultimately comes back to these Pokemon being extremely safe choices. The reason why HO isn't as good in this meta is because it relies on a decent level of prediction and risk-taking, and while being able to properly to predict is something every good player should be able to do, sometimes it just doesn't work like that. In many situations, you end up in 50/50 situations, which aren't at all prediction based, unless your opponent is blatantly obvious in their motives. In those 50/50 situations, more often than not, you can afford to fuck up because your still have a fallback, but in HO, you don't really have that option. You lose the coinflip, and bam, your momentum is gone and you have to start over. Personally, I love HO and I'm highly considering just playing it exclusively, but unfortunately, you have those players that you just can't predict, not because they're that good of a player, but sometimes they don't put any thought into what they're doing. How do you predict someone that essentially plays by chance? I will admit though, HO is still one of the best playstyles in LC besides the two I mentioned, just because it puts incredible amounts of pressure on your opponent, and LC has so many powerful offensive threats.

So what's the issue with Stall? It just can't do anything to BO or balance teams. While HO doesn't have the backbone to fight them as well as it could, Stall lacks the power to put any sort of pressure on, and not to mention Knock Off/VoltTurn is too easy to just spam. Not really sure what else to say there.
did you not read my post, I explained why the most common Pokemon you find on balance/Bulky offense struggle against stall and hyper offense teams. Mienfoo, Chinchou, Spritzee, Ferroseed, Abra all struggle vs. these team archetypes, which is why balance teams need to adapt from the standard shit i've been talking about
 

Celestavian

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I have a problem with comparing Mienfoo to Timburr and Pancham, mainly with how you seem to be underestimating Regenerator. The biggest problem bar none that I run into with Pancham and Timburr is how easy they can be to wear down since Drain Punch isn't always enough. Killing Mienfoo is much harder than it is for Timburr and Pancham, despite the latter two's superior bulk. Timburr or Pancham are pretty much ruined if they drop below 35% HP, while Mienfoo can take strong hits like that and just switch out to regain a large chunk of HP. Pancham and Timburr are bulkier stat-wise, but Mienfoo has a higher "effective health", which allows it to take more hits the longer a match goes on. Regenerator is what defensive Mienfoo is all about, and honestly I think that it would be relegated to only offensive sets without it. You're also leaving out my favorite Mienfoo set and what I believe to be one of the biggest threats in the meta atm: Scarf Mienfoo. It's a fantastic win condition when you don't miss with High Jump Kick, and allows Mienfoo to put on lots of pressure throughout all stages of the game with a fast 130 BP move off a base 85 Attack. That sure is something Timburr and Pancham can't do. Mienfoo also has a decently fast Taunt, can be part of a BP chain, gets Swords Dance, has Acrobatics to absorb Knock Off and duel opposing Fighters more easily, etc. I know you said Mienfoo isn't bad and are only trying to highlight how sometimes Timburr and Pancham can be better picks, but let's not forget that Mienfoo deserves its high usage.
 

Shrug

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Rowan said:
Now, many people know I have argued Chinchou for S, but I have since changed my mind. Chinchou is a great Pokemon against balanced teams, switching in on something it walls, and pivoting out. It's another 'jack of all trades' mon, like mienfoo. Ray Jay talks about Stall and Hyper Offense punishing safe Pokemon, and Chinchou is an amazing example of this. It doesn't have the longevity to withstand repeated attacks from powerful mons. Imagine pairing together Elekid, LO Staryu, and Fletchling. Chinchou walls them all but on the same team, it stands no chance and it will be broken through. It also doesn't have any power to break through a stall team. The best it can do is Scald Burn, or the rare Toxic, but no stall team is gonna be without a cleric. However if people keep using the standard Mienfoo/Chinchou/Fletchling teams that I see all the time, it will remain to be an amazing mon. You should all go out there, and build teams that punishes the use of Chinchou, because it's extremely easy to take advantage of.
The thing with Chinchou is, despite all its faults, it is so goddamn well-adjusted to the metagame that it is painful. It stops the second-biggest offensive threat, Fletchling, with ease. It has two moves, in Scald and Volt Switch, that people hated so much they considered suspecting in gen 5 (if you want to be pendantic, the pro-ban users raised U-Turn as a broken move, but they're about equivilent). Despite its awkwardly low stats, can you think of a single thing that enjoys switching in to a chinchou? Anything weak to Scald or Volt Switch doesn't want to come in on a 50 / 50; any bulky neutral mon faces either a quick pivot to a counter or risks a scald Burn (mienfoo, pawn, etc); the paucity of offensive grass types in the meta means any one of those bulky grass types that come in will face a volt swtich to a pokemon it is a sitting duck against (Ferroseed to Foo, Foongus to Fletch, etc). However, you're right in the fact that it is exploitable, but when wielded well it is an apt gainer of momentum. As apt-get said, the best set is 17 speed BJ: gains momentum, does damage with speed, and has utility.
 

Corporal Levi

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On the topic of fighting-types, how does this look as a comparison between them?

The ranks are:
*
+

-
X
They're really subjective but it's just to give a rough idea.

MIENFOO:
** Regenerator
* Greater speed
* U-Turn
+ Fast Taunt
+ Acrobatics
+ (Reckless) High Jump Kick
+ Bulk Up and Swords Dance
+ Baton Pass

TIMBURR:
** Mach Punch
*+ Guts
*+ Initial Bulk
+ Bulk Up
+ (Iron Fist boosted) Elemental punches

CROAGUNK:
** Resistance to Fighting
** Poison-type STAB
** Vacuum Wave
* Dry Skin
+ Nasty Plot
+ Sucker Punch
+ Resistance to Grass
+ Resistance to Poison
+ Neutrality to Fairy
- Dry Skin
X Increased weakness to Psychic
X Increased weakness to Ground
X Trappers make those weaknesses even worse :(

PANCHAM:
*+ Greater initial bulk
* Parting Shot
* Gunk Shot
* Zen Headbutt
+ Mold Breaker
+ Swords Dance

Scraggy:
* Moxie
* Shed Skin
* Dragon Dance
* STAB Knock Off
* Immunity to Psychic
+ Greater Initial Bulk
+ High Jump Kick
+ Resistance to Ghost
+ Increased resistance to Dark
+ Intimidate
- Neutrality to U-Turn
X Increased weakness to Fairy
XX Weakness to Fighting


RIOLU:
*** Prankster Copycat
+ Decently fast
- No Knock Off

MANKEY:
* U-Turn
* Gunk Shot
* Greater speed
+ Defiant
- No Knock Off

MACHOP:
*+ Accurate Dynamic Punch
or
* Guts

MAKUHITA:
* Guts

TYROGUE:
+ Guts
+ Rapid Spin
- No Knock Off
X Weak

Mankey would probably be the cutoff for viable choices
 

Holiday

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So a pokemon I was playing around with was Mantyke and its pretty good at stopping Vulpix like cold. Between an offensive Rain Dance set or a bulky set, it can pretty much take on any variant of Vulpix, and it can stop some of the mini sun cores. Obviously a 4x weakness to electric and a SR weakness is the epitome of ;-; in a Chinchou based meta, but that's what teammates are for.

Edit: do you guys think any of the pokemon currently banned by suspect (so fuck off Sneasel and Scyther ;-;) could possibly not be broken in this meta? Why or why not?
 
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comparing Mienfoo to Timburr is like comparing Porygon and Bunnelby, just because they have the same type doesn't mean they perform the same roles. Mienfoo's S rank strength is being able to pull off like half a dozen U Turns or more a game.

Of course, I'm not claiming Mienfoo is bad, I just feel it offers less utility a lot of the time compared to these two. Yet with Mienfoo, you can afford mistakes, because if you fuck up, you can switch out and it doesn't matter. What Ray Jay argues is that if you don't make these mistakes, you have 2 choices of Pokemon that offer more overall utility than Mienfoo, but you have to be a better player.
This is the completely wrong mindset to approaching how Mienfoo works as a pivot. Mienfoo allows more room for error, it allows you to make mistakes, and that's what makes it so good and that's what makes it S rank. You can afford to just spam U Turn. You can afford to predict an incorrect switch in, take a hit, and U Turn out while healing with Regen.

Here is the perfect scenario example of why Mienfoo is so good. Let's say you have full health Mienfoo out versus a full health Fletchling. Now Fletchling is probably going to either Swords Dance, U Turn, or Acrobatics (Overheat if you have a Steel). Since Acrobatics only does ~80% and you heal for 30%, you can just U Turn and gain tempo. Yeah you lose 50% for free if Fletchling Acros, but getting a free switch in in to either Fletchling or their switch in if they U Turn is invaluable to taking control of a game. You don't have to predict what Fletch is going to use, because in all cases you put yourself on the offensive position by sacrificing some health (which is easily gained back). I don't know if that will make sense to most people but Mienfoo serves a completely unique role apart from any other mon in any other tier so really don't compare it to other fighting types.
 
Nice and dead thread.


I feel Gothita is at least worth a suspect right now in Little Cup thanks to the Choice Scarf set. This thing is almost for sure going to get a kill on something important that you want or cripple something important with Trick and let a team-mate get an easy set up. It has a good enough special movepool that it can effectively trap a decent portion of the game and kill them. The threat of trick often means defensive pokes usually can't afford to not attack the first turn which really does help.

Goth isn't without its downsides as it's actually pretty frail and can be easily revenge killed by Pursuit Stunky/Houndour/Pawniard but that is the thing about Shadow Tag in this doesn't matter. By the time you get to pursuit it then Gothita will has already done it's job and took out whatever it chooses.

I'm not saying it's beyond all hope broken like some past pokes (hello swirlix) but I do believe it is suspect worthy at least.
 
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