I don't see the merit in arguing where one of the worst Pokemon in the tier should lie on the Viability Rankings. I'll agree just for the sake of moving the conversation forward that dedicating E-Rank to the cocoons is suitable, and that Jigglypuff can inconsequentially rise to D-Rank. Let's try to focus on relevant threats in Middle Cup as opposed to the bottom rung. I personally wouldn't mind seeing more testing, conversation, and data on Pokemon embedded within the C-Ranks. There's a fair bit of neat stuff in there that would benefit a weather team, for example.
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Middle Cup ORAS
- Thread starter Mazz
- Start date
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
But the whole basis of E-rank is basically mons who are outclassed in each and every way--a description that fits Jigglypuff (or so I've come to believe after reading the thread, even you admit it, I haven't gotten around to playing this yet). Mons in D generally have a niche over higher mons--sometimes a very very very small niche, but it's there (such as a typing/ability that allows the mon to check a top threat in the meta but being useless against anything else), while E-rank (in this meta) is reserved for mons that should realistically never be used but are still legal (most metas tend to just forego E-rank as it is assumed anything not on the VR is plain bad). The VR also is just for competitive purposes--people use it as a resource to see what is viable. I could technically bring a gimmick LC team to OU or STABmons for fun, but that doesn't mean they should be ranked on the VR.
Someone listed a niche that Jigglypuff had somewhere in this thread. I know Jigglypuff is horrible, but I just find it strange that it's listed with the cocoons. The cocoons can virtually do nothing, Jigglypuff can at least try to do something, which is why I think Jigglypuff would be better in D or D-. It's like if you put a bad tasting medicine and garbage in the same taste level. Yeah they both taste horrible, but at least the medicine is able to do something.
Anyway I agree that we should focus the discussion more on higher-ranked threats. While I still think Jigglypuff doesn't deserve to be ranked with the cocoons, I can't argue with the fact that Jigglypuff is horrible in this metagame.
I was the one who talked about Jigglypuff, I was bored remembered when AV Wigglytuff was something in NU for like a day and thought how it would work with Jigglypuff. Anyway, someone suggested talking about Weather abusers so why not?
Weepinbell @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Weather Ball
- Solar Beam
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb/Sunny Day
Weepinbell is probably the most threatening Sun sweeper in the tier. Not only does it have good offensive stats in 90 Atk and 85 SpAtk but it also has a great dual typing that's able to threaten many mons. The first set is the special set, just like Victreebell's. The set is simple, Sleep Powder something and then setup Sun if you are carrying Sunny Day and start wreaking havoc. A specially defensive Quilladin would give this set trouble since the only thing that can hit Quilladin is Solar Beam. Alternatively like many mons in MC Weepinbell can run a physical attacking set:
Weepinbell @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Whip/Seed Bomb
- Knock Off/Sucker Punch
- Sleep Powder/Bullet Seed
- Swords Dance/Sunny Day
This set abuses Weepinbell's excellent 90 Atk. If Weepinbell gets an SD boost it hits an Atk stat of 312 which is insanely good. Power Whip is Weepinbell's strongest STAB and lets Weepinbell hit hard even without a boost. Knock Off is there for things that might resist Power Whip and Sucker Punch is an alternative for priority. Sleep Powder give you free setup turns while Bullet Seed breaks sturdy and sash mons like Kadabra. Swords Dance is there to make Weepinbell capable of cleaning whole games while Sunny Day gets rid of the hard reliance on other Pokemon.
Weepinbell @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Weather Ball
- Solar Beam
- Sleep Powder
- Sludge Bomb/Sunny Day
Weepinbell is probably the most threatening Sun sweeper in the tier. Not only does it have good offensive stats in 90 Atk and 85 SpAtk but it also has a great dual typing that's able to threaten many mons. The first set is the special set, just like Victreebell's. The set is simple, Sleep Powder something and then setup Sun if you are carrying Sunny Day and start wreaking havoc. A specially defensive Quilladin would give this set trouble since the only thing that can hit Quilladin is Solar Beam. Alternatively like many mons in MC Weepinbell can run a physical attacking set:
Weepinbell @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Whip/Seed Bomb
- Knock Off/Sucker Punch
- Sleep Powder/Bullet Seed
- Swords Dance/Sunny Day
This set abuses Weepinbell's excellent 90 Atk. If Weepinbell gets an SD boost it hits an Atk stat of 312 which is insanely good. Power Whip is Weepinbell's strongest STAB and lets Weepinbell hit hard even without a boost. Knock Off is there for things that might resist Power Whip and Sucker Punch is an alternative for priority. Sleep Powder give you free setup turns while Bullet Seed breaks sturdy and sash mons like Kadabra. Swords Dance is there to make Weepinbell capable of cleaning whole games while Sunny Day gets rid of the hard reliance on other Pokemon.
Threw
cohiba
unfixable do you think the VR and maybe a nice link to a Google doc or something containing what's on post #8 (you could just hyperlink "Teambuilding Compendium" right below the VR - perhaps BrandonBeast or Mazz would be willing to spend the small amount of time required to put it together, and it could also house stuff like Speed tiers and whatnot until the possibility of opening another thread presents itself) could be put in the OP? i think it would save everyone a lot of trouble and honestly make the thread look a lot less haphazard and disorganized.
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TI is giving me the second post for these resources. :)
Threw
cohiba
Figured I'd post this nifty little set cuz it's fun and effective.
Poliwhirl @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Return
- Encore
- Belly Drum
Poliwhirl randomly has a really nice base 90 Speed tier that makes it an incredible BD user capable of outspeeding much of the meta. This high Speed lets it comfortably come in after a teammate's KO and Encore the foe into an unfavorable move; speaking of which, since Poliwhirl has Water Absorb, easily one of the best abilities in MC as long as Scald exists and Aqua Jet is the most prevalent form of priority, it can lock another common BD user in Marill into Aqua Jet when it comes in, earning itself free recovery and ruining your opponent's sweep. It's too bad Poli has a pretty awful movepool (no Close Combat or anything), but the neutral coverage Return affords is probably best anyway, as it lets Poli actually KO Marill once it's been Encored.
Poliwhirl @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Return
- Encore
- Belly Drum
Poliwhirl randomly has a really nice base 90 Speed tier that makes it an incredible BD user capable of outspeeding much of the meta. This high Speed lets it comfortably come in after a teammate's KO and Encore the foe into an unfavorable move; speaking of which, since Poliwhirl has Water Absorb, easily one of the best abilities in MC as long as Scald exists and Aqua Jet is the most prevalent form of priority, it can lock another common BD user in Marill into Aqua Jet when it comes in, earning itself free recovery and ruining your opponent's sweep. It's too bad Poli has a pretty awful movepool (no Close Combat or anything), but the neutral coverage Return affords is probably best anyway, as it lets Poli actually KO Marill once it's been Encored.
Being outsped by Electabuzz and having no priority to make up for it is a massive bummer for Poliwhirl, but being an alternate Belly Drum user to Marill probably gives it some utility. I honestly hadn't considered a BD set, rather only considered it as the fastest Pokémon in the tier under rain and nothing more.
It would absolutely need Electabuzz, Grovyle, and other fast threats capable of whipping the shit out of it removed; maybe Thunder Wave support from Porygon2 or Baton Pass some Speed and a Substitute from Combusken to it?
It would absolutely need Electabuzz, Grovyle, and other fast threats capable of whipping the shit out of it removed; maybe Thunder Wave support from Porygon2 or Baton Pass some Speed and a Substitute from Combusken to it?
Threw
cohiba
The latter is exactly what I have on the team right now. Haven't had occasion to use it at this point, but I can't imagine it's an incredibly difficult strategy to pull off, especially considering Poliwhirl is, again, immune to the efforts of Combusken's most common checks. A Rain Dance set (mixed, probably, something like Hydro/IB/EQ Splash Plate) is something I intend to try out soon. This is a really great mon regardless, though, I think C- is a bit low D:
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
I'm gonna post some cool weather abusers
Herdier @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Play Rough
- Crunch
- Fire Fang / Wild Charge
Sand Rush Herdier is the one thing that makes Sand a viable weather playstyle in Middle Cup, and Herdier utilizes Sand very well as it boosts his Speed to crazy levels, and Choice Band and his good 80 Attack stat let him pretty damn hard. Return is the main STAB, and it is pretty spammable as well. Play Rough provides coverage against Dark and Fighting types, notably getting a 2HKO on 252 HP Gurdurr. Crunch provides imporant coverage against Ghost-types since this set doesn't use Scrappy, and Fire Fang hits Steel types, while Wild Charge hits bulky Waters. Overall, Sand is sort of a niche archetype due to Herdier being the one thing that abuses it and no Hippototas, but Herdier is still a big threat under Sand and shouldn't be underestimated.
Lombre @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
Pretty much the same as how Ludicolo works in NU, just with Lombre. Lombre is a great Swift Swimmer due to his Grass STAB letting him beat Water types and his great power output. He outspeeds pretty much everything except some select Scarfers under Rain, and can proceed to beat the opposing team with Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps, Giga Drain, and Ice Beam hitting Grass types. He also has decent bulk that makes him a great offensive Rain setter as well. Overall Lombre is a threat under Rain and should be considered for every Rain team.
Palpitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave / Stealth Rock
Offensive Palpitoad is also a threat in Rain, as it can utilize it's decent 65 Special Attack to good effect, with Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps and Earth Power to hit Electric types as well. Sludge Wave is for Grassers since Palpitoad can't learn Ice Beam, although Stealth Rock is an option if you don't already have a Rocker. Overall Palpitoad is a cool threat in Rain, and can also use a more defensive set to set up Rain Dance for the team and support with Stealth Rock.
Edit: Will also be updating the VR soon, get ready :)
Herdier @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Play Rough
- Crunch
- Fire Fang / Wild Charge
Sand Rush Herdier is the one thing that makes Sand a viable weather playstyle in Middle Cup, and Herdier utilizes Sand very well as it boosts his Speed to crazy levels, and Choice Band and his good 80 Attack stat let him pretty damn hard. Return is the main STAB, and it is pretty spammable as well. Play Rough provides coverage against Dark and Fighting types, notably getting a 2HKO on 252 HP Gurdurr. Crunch provides imporant coverage against Ghost-types since this set doesn't use Scrappy, and Fire Fang hits Steel types, while Wild Charge hits bulky Waters. Overall, Sand is sort of a niche archetype due to Herdier being the one thing that abuses it and no Hippototas, but Herdier is still a big threat under Sand and shouldn't be underestimated.
Lombre @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam
Pretty much the same as how Ludicolo works in NU, just with Lombre. Lombre is a great Swift Swimmer due to his Grass STAB letting him beat Water types and his great power output. He outspeeds pretty much everything except some select Scarfers under Rain, and can proceed to beat the opposing team with Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps, Giga Drain, and Ice Beam hitting Grass types. He also has decent bulk that makes him a great offensive Rain setter as well. Overall Lombre is a threat under Rain and should be considered for every Rain team.
Palpitoad @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Rain Dance
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave / Stealth Rock
Offensive Palpitoad is also a threat in Rain, as it can utilize it's decent 65 Special Attack to good effect, with Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps and Earth Power to hit Electric types as well. Sludge Wave is for Grassers since Palpitoad can't learn Ice Beam, although Stealth Rock is an option if you don't already have a Rocker. Overall Palpitoad is a cool threat in Rain, and can also use a more defensive set to set up Rain Dance for the team and support with Stealth Rock.
Edit: Will also be updating the VR soon, get ready :)
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Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Usually the first stat is the speed
The only real drawback I can see to sand+Herdier here is the lack of Hippopotas to provide it on switch-in, which means that there is a pretty limited pool of viable setters to choose from. Like, I've listed potential setters that I can think of on the spot below, but overall it is pretty limited. Please forgive me if I have forgotten anything or mistakenly thought something learns sandstorm:
All in all, feels very niche when compared to the other more easily managed weathers. Still, Herdier is the best weather abuser in the meta, so it could be worth it.
- Rhydon
- Lairon
- Graveler (Sturdy)
- Pupitar (Sturdy; compared to Graveller, exchanges phys bulk/sucker for speed and spec bulk)
- Gabite
All in all, feels very niche when compared to the other more easily managed weathers. Still, Herdier is the best weather abuser in the meta, so it could be worth it.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Viability Ranking Update Time!
Rises:
Croconaw from A to A+ (Is such a great sweeper with Dragon Dance and cool coverage moves and priority in Aqua Jet, Swords Dance also breaks stall really well (Especially if SubSD), overall Croconaw doesn't have much weaknesses and is on the same level as the A+ mons imo)
Drops:
Gloom from B+ to B (Doesn't really have much of a niche over Roselia other than being more physically defensive, should drop to reflect that nicheness)
Vibrava from A- to B+ (The stat distribution just isn't that good, 50 in both defenses and Special Attack and 70 in Speed and Attack just is so mediocre imo, it's still a decent Defogger that's also a Rhydon counter, but it's just too frail to take hits a lot of the times and needs support to work, making it inferior to the other choices for hazard removal imo)
Flaaffy from C- to D (No niche really)
Onto some of the noms proposed by people, I decided to not move Braixen up because while Power Herb Solar Beam with Magician is a cool niche, Solar Beam can't OHKO any of the bulky waters other than Marshtomp, and is useless after that, and while Psychic coverage is cool, overall Braixen is just too niche to move up to B-. Jigglypuff didn't move up because it's just bad, please don't discuss it. I also decided to not move up Fraxure to S (That was one of the discussion points) because in practice it's just a lot harder to set up against offense, and while it's still threatening, it's not good enough for S. Other sets than DD or SD are pretty cool though, such as Threw's Choice Scarf set, which is a really powerful cleaner.
Discussion Points:
Fletchinder to S (One of the DP's from the last update, decided I wanted more discussion on it before decided on whether or not it's moving up)
Metang to B+ (Has Stealth Rock, which is cool as always, and is actually a great lure with stuff like Grass Knot to hit bulky Waters, and Ice Punch to hit Gabite and other Grounds, but faces a lot of competition from Doublade as a Steel type and is sort of weak, making it hard to damage walls outside of Toxic)
Servine to A+ ( Servine is a really big threat, as Contrary Leaf Storm and the unpredictability of what Hidden Power it will have makes it very hard to deal with for a lot of teams. It is sort of slow sometimes against offense though, and can be checked by many popular threats depending on the HP it has)
Electabuzz to A+ (105 Speed is godlike as always, and it's actually really hard to switch into, as the chip damage it can do to even some of it's checks can just mean a lot to a team, especially with hazard support. Definitely on-par with the A+'s imo)
Kadabra to A+ (Same deal as Electabuzz in being great versus offense and being super hard to switch into, especially since most of it's checks and counters can be beaten by it's coverage options. It is frail though, and is vulnerable to priority such as Shadow Sneak)
Pignite to C+ (I don't really know what this thing does, like it's got some cool moves in Head Smash and such, but it doesn't have much of a niche imo)
Monferno to A/A- (Monferno is pretty good and all, but I haven't seen one in all of my Middle Cup battles, and that's probably for a reason: Combusken's just better on a whole bunch of teams due to Speed Boost, leaving Monferno being sort of niche. It's still pretty good with movepool gems like Close Combat, U-Turn, Nasty Plot, and Stealth Rock, but it faces a lot of competition from Combusken, making it sort of inferior to it on a lot of teams)
Pupitar to C (I've tested out Pupitar, and while I was optimistic at first, I've found out that it's pretty damn lame. It can't outspeed Kadabra and Electabuzz after a DD even with Jolly, worsening it's matchup against offense, and it's basically a worse version of Double Dance or Rock Polish + 3 Attacks Rhydon, who at least can outspeed a lot of stuff after +2)
Keep up the good work guys! n_n
Rises:
Croconaw from A to A+ (Is such a great sweeper with Dragon Dance and cool coverage moves and priority in Aqua Jet, Swords Dance also breaks stall really well (Especially if SubSD), overall Croconaw doesn't have much weaknesses and is on the same level as the A+ mons imo)
Drops:
Gloom from B+ to B (Doesn't really have much of a niche over Roselia other than being more physically defensive, should drop to reflect that nicheness)
Vibrava from A- to B+ (The stat distribution just isn't that good, 50 in both defenses and Special Attack and 70 in Speed and Attack just is so mediocre imo, it's still a decent Defogger that's also a Rhydon counter, but it's just too frail to take hits a lot of the times and needs support to work, making it inferior to the other choices for hazard removal imo)
Flaaffy from C- to D (No niche really)
Onto some of the noms proposed by people, I decided to not move Braixen up because while Power Herb Solar Beam with Magician is a cool niche, Solar Beam can't OHKO any of the bulky waters other than Marshtomp, and is useless after that, and while Psychic coverage is cool, overall Braixen is just too niche to move up to B-. Jigglypuff didn't move up because it's just bad, please don't discuss it. I also decided to not move up Fraxure to S (That was one of the discussion points) because in practice it's just a lot harder to set up against offense, and while it's still threatening, it's not good enough for S. Other sets than DD or SD are pretty cool though, such as Threw's Choice Scarf set, which is a really powerful cleaner.
Discussion Points:
Fletchinder to S (One of the DP's from the last update, decided I wanted more discussion on it before decided on whether or not it's moving up)
Metang to B+ (Has Stealth Rock, which is cool as always, and is actually a great lure with stuff like Grass Knot to hit bulky Waters, and Ice Punch to hit Gabite and other Grounds, but faces a lot of competition from Doublade as a Steel type and is sort of weak, making it hard to damage walls outside of Toxic)
Servine to A+ ( Servine is a really big threat, as Contrary Leaf Storm and the unpredictability of what Hidden Power it will have makes it very hard to deal with for a lot of teams. It is sort of slow sometimes against offense though, and can be checked by many popular threats depending on the HP it has)
Electabuzz to A+ (105 Speed is godlike as always, and it's actually really hard to switch into, as the chip damage it can do to even some of it's checks can just mean a lot to a team, especially with hazard support. Definitely on-par with the A+'s imo)
Kadabra to A+ (Same deal as Electabuzz in being great versus offense and being super hard to switch into, especially since most of it's checks and counters can be beaten by it's coverage options. It is frail though, and is vulnerable to priority such as Shadow Sneak)
Pignite to C+ (I don't really know what this thing does, like it's got some cool moves in Head Smash and such, but it doesn't have much of a niche imo)
Monferno to A/A- (Monferno is pretty good and all, but I haven't seen one in all of my Middle Cup battles, and that's probably for a reason: Combusken's just better on a whole bunch of teams due to Speed Boost, leaving Monferno being sort of niche. It's still pretty good with movepool gems like Close Combat, U-Turn, Nasty Plot, and Stealth Rock, but it faces a lot of competition from Combusken, making it sort of inferior to it on a lot of teams)
Pupitar to C (I've tested out Pupitar, and while I was optimistic at first, I've found out that it's pretty damn lame. It can't outspeed Kadabra and Electabuzz after a DD even with Jolly, worsening it's matchup against offense, and it's basically a worse version of Double Dance or Rock Polish + 3 Attacks Rhydon, who at least can outspeed a lot of stuff after +2)
Keep up the good work guys! n_n
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Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
BB might as well just adopt the thread lol
Jigglypuff in conclusion reached agree.
I agree with Kadabra in A+ anytime I bring Kadabra, it is usually and overwgelming force. Sash is +1 emergency kill and Life Orb is flat out destructive. Outsides of priority or having really good SpD there isn't a lot that wants to deal with Kadabra.
Jigglypuff in conclusion reached agree.
I agree with Kadabra in A+ anytime I bring Kadabra, it is usually and overwgelming force. Sash is +1 emergency kill and Life Orb is flat out destructive. Outsides of priority or having really good SpD there isn't a lot that wants to deal with Kadabra.
I completely agree with Kadabra to A+ and as unfixable said maybe even S. Kadabra is so powerful, if has very nice coverage and an amazing ability in Magic Guard that let it abuse Sash but also allows it to abuse Life Orb. Kadabra is so hard to revenge kill because of its Speed, there is also a distinct lack of pursuit trappers that don't die to it 1v1. Kadabra is guaranteed to get a KO every game and if the opponent lacks priority Kadabra is getting even more. Combined with the fact that hazards are easy for Kadabra to abuse since the best defogger gets destroyed by it Kadabra can just clean games effortlessly. Give it support to beat Doublade and other Steel-types and nothing comes in expect P2. We're just lucky that it doesn't get Focus Blast.
You did those Speed Tiers at Level 100. They need to be Level 50. However, kudos on getting those done in about the same time I used to argue with myself about starting them. All that's really left is to add the remaining stuff that doubles its Speed under weather (Lombre, Ivysaur, and Herdier are major examples of this). It's probably worthwhile to add Adamant Whirlepede at +2 in case someone were to run a Choice Band set or something. It's not ideal, but even the Endeavour set commonly hits +2 and it's nice to know what will and won't outpace it at that speed.
In terms of the discussion points, Fletchinder should probably remain at A+. Priority Acrobatics is a godsend, and it bulldozes through a lot of things after a Swords Dance, with the only things it doesn't beat being Rhydon, Lairon, Doublade, and stuff that can't afford to switch in (but can revenge kill, ie: Electabuzz, Porygon2). If played well, it can U-turn out of those situations and keep momentum on its side. If Doublade or Lairon switch in on it, the potential Fire Blast is going to do tons of damage as well. However, it has a very crippling Stealth Rock weakness and is hard do bring in due to its low defences - you almost have to Defog / Spin Rocks away if you want to use it. Fletchinder is also super vulnerable to all other Priority moves in the tier and pretty much anything that naturally outspeeds it and can take an unboosted hit (FS Kadabra, Electabuzz, etc.); again, the paper-thin defences aren't doing it any good. This keeps Fletchinder from breaking stuff like Doublade. Any prior damage, and Doublade will be able to 2HKO Fletchinder (assuming it can't or doesn't Roost off the Stealth Rock damage).
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Fletchinder: 54-64 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The definition of S-Rank is for stuff that requires little to no support - Fletchinder doesn't quite meet these requirements imo. It needs something to get rid of Rocks, and it really, REALLY appreciates having something to remove Rhydon and Doublade (the former still beats it with a Burn anyways).
Servine to A+/S is beyond reasonable, to the point where it's borderline S. Much like Fletchinder - there's some stuff it absolutely needs removed (Sliggoo, Golbat, Combusken, Fletchinder, etc.), but once those are gone this thing stomps on the Middle Cup metagame. I'm keeping an eye on Servine and how the metagame has to respond to it. If I find that it's heavily restricting on teambuilding, I won't hesitate to nominate it for suspect.
Kadabra to A+. Hard to say, as it really depends on the set you use and how the other team is built. I've rarely lost matches when using it. Encore allows it to set up on so many things in Middle Cup, Focus Sash almost guarantees it a KO per game, if not more, and its movepool allows it to out-muscle a lot of its checks (Dazzling Gleam anyone?). Right now I'd keep it at A+ until a certain few of you quit building teams that get 6-0'd by Kadabra ;], and then look at this one once more people start playing. As it stands, it's got a very convincing argument to go S-rank, but it's nowhere near as polarizing as Servine, so I'd hold off on raising it too far.
Monferno to A is good. I like using the Endeavor + SR lead set, but Combusken and Magmar are better offensively. Monferno does bring value to a VoltTurn team however, and it's in no way a terrible choice for a team, so no need to drop it too far.
Pupitar is shite, drop it to C. DD is no good on it and it's a garbage Sandstorm setter. I'm curious as to what kind of niche others have found for it. Not being a Dark-type akin to Tyranitar really sucks for Pupitar (as it's arguably the coolest-looking 'mon in MC).
I want to test Pignite some more, actually had an idea about it this morning, so definitely focus on this one in terms of conversation. The others are pretty much straight-forward.
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Threw
cohiba
Don't have much to say about the rises and drops, I can see those. Some brief words about the DP's:
Fletchinder to S
I feel like S needs to be reserved for a mon that can perform well against any playstyle and requires no support to perform its very important role. Fletch doesn't really fit this description cuz of its awful weaknesses to SR and priority - in other words, you pretty much have to have Prinplup on your team for it to work at all. Fletch doesn't even KO anything that takes neutral damage from its attacks and gets walled by half the tier cuz it has no good coverage. I honestly hate this thing and find it way too hard to make work, I would keep it A+ if we absolutely must.
Metang to B+
This thing has potential. Everyone forgets it has dual screens and Explosion in addition to rocks - could be a nice suicide lead on HO. As you said, it has nice coverage moves but also Agility and at least passable Attack, so it can at the very least weaken whatever checks you want it to. I'm fine with the move just for sheer diversity; even though it's inferior to Doublade in one way, it has a lot of sets that can accomplish things Doublade could never dream of.
Servine to A+
Here's the thing with Servine: you can only really counter it if you have a mon that outspeeds it, because even if you have something that resists Leaf Storm, that +2 boost often stretches it into a 2HKO. You know what fixes the problem of stuff outspeeding it? A fucking Scarf, that's what. The set cleans up everything once you take out its few checks (Fletch, etc), fucking 1v4s teams if you punch the right holes and doesn't require a lot of support either way.
Kadabra to A+
It's really vulnerable to any priority, honestly. But I'm fine with this move. Everyone knows what it does, so I'll just say Encore is one of the best fourth moves in mons, period tbh, and it has that yellow magic too, so it has utility and powerunlike Fletch.
Pignite to C+
It has decent bulk and a neat moveset but...without Reckless, that moveset is a loootttt less impressive. It dies in 3 turns and doesn't hit hard enough (imo) to justify it. I spend most of my time using this thing wondering why I'm not using something else, especially when 90% of the tier revenge kills it with that awful defensive typing.
And I don't really have much to say about the last two, you summed up everything I'd probably say.
E: Leave it to Mazz to say everything I say 3 seconds before I do and better .-.
E2: Shit, is it gonna matter that they're at level 100? people can just do the speed first then change the level, can't they?
Fletchinder to S
I feel like S needs to be reserved for a mon that can perform well against any playstyle and requires no support to perform its very important role. Fletch doesn't really fit this description cuz of its awful weaknesses to SR and priority - in other words, you pretty much have to have Prinplup on your team for it to work at all. Fletch doesn't even KO anything that takes neutral damage from its attacks and gets walled by half the tier cuz it has no good coverage. I honestly hate this thing and find it way too hard to make work, I would keep it A+ if we absolutely must.
Metang to B+
This thing has potential. Everyone forgets it has dual screens and Explosion in addition to rocks - could be a nice suicide lead on HO. As you said, it has nice coverage moves but also Agility and at least passable Attack, so it can at the very least weaken whatever checks you want it to. I'm fine with the move just for sheer diversity; even though it's inferior to Doublade in one way, it has a lot of sets that can accomplish things Doublade could never dream of.
Servine to A+
Here's the thing with Servine: you can only really counter it if you have a mon that outspeeds it, because even if you have something that resists Leaf Storm, that +2 boost often stretches it into a 2HKO. You know what fixes the problem of stuff outspeeding it? A fucking Scarf, that's what. The set cleans up everything once you take out its few checks (Fletch, etc), fucking 1v4s teams if you punch the right holes and doesn't require a lot of support either way.
Kadabra to A+
It's really vulnerable to any priority, honestly. But I'm fine with this move. Everyone knows what it does, so I'll just say Encore is one of the best fourth moves in mons, period tbh, and it has that yellow magic too, so it has utility and power
Pignite to C+
It has decent bulk and a neat moveset but...without Reckless, that moveset is a loootttt less impressive. It dies in 3 turns and doesn't hit hard enough (imo) to justify it. I spend most of my time using this thing wondering why I'm not using something else, especially when 90% of the tier revenge kills it with that awful defensive typing.
And I don't really have much to say about the last two, you summed up everything I'd probably say.
E: Leave it to Mazz to say everything I say 3 seconds before I do and better .-.
E2: Shit, is it gonna matter that they're at level 100? people can just do the speed first then change the level, can't they?
First off, you're welcome :]
Second, it's not a huge deal. The order remains the same. However the speed values themselves differ substantially - at level 50 they're not quite half of the level 100 values. For sake of continuity, I'd like to see them brought down to level 50, but again, it's not a huge deal.
Threw
cohiba
I'll get around to fixing that, then. Shouldn't be SUPER annoying. Also, I'll shortly be adding a mini teambuilding compendium on that same post (#111) based on some of the items in those of the major tiers, including an updated version of post #8, just for the sake of alleviating everyone's searches.
e: finished teambuilding compendium, now gonna work on switching the speed tiers to level 50 numbers
e2: fixed speed tiers to reflect level 50 numbers and added Mazz's suggestions.
Also, when I said 'finished' teambuilding compendium, that isn't really true. I'd love to add a section about Choice users but getting a full list of those is pretty difficult at this point. That'll be a work in progress.
Hope you guys enjoy all this stuff and take advantage of it :]
e: finished teambuilding compendium, now gonna work on switching the speed tiers to level 50 numbers
e2: fixed speed tiers to reflect level 50 numbers and added Mazz's suggestions.
Also, when I said 'finished' teambuilding compendium, that isn't really true. I'd love to add a section about Choice users but getting a full list of those is pretty difficult at this point. That'll be a work in progress.
Hope you guys enjoy all this stuff and take advantage of it :]
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Seadra @ Life Orb
Ability: Sniper
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Agility
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
Oh my gosh! This thing is absolutely nuts. I've been using this on a team with support from Gurdurr to weaken and take on Porygon2, and damn, this thing hits like a truck. Here is a calc just to show you how dangerous this thing is:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sniper Seadra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 on a critical hit: 125-148 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sniper is what makes this thing so crazy. Yeah you rely on luck, but when you land it... Nothing is switching in. Porygon2 is typically safe though, but Hydro Pump does ~40% so it has to stay really healthy otherwise Seadra muscles past.
Super cool Pokemon!
Threw
cohiba
The set for Kingdra in UU involves Focus Energy and Scope Lens. The set basically guarantees a crit on every attack after one turn of setup and is pretty much impossible to switch into. It's something I've been meaning to try with Seadra, I can't imagine it's any less incredible on it than it is on Kingdra
e: it does work, I believe BrandonBeast can confirm
e: it does work, I believe BrandonBeast can confirm
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