Middle Cup ORAS

[skies]

All three of the council has agreed on not banning Eviolite. We can move past that discussion and back to any other solutions or the current bans at hand.

See, I like Mazz's idea of banning abilities. Contrary, Speed Boost, and Protean really. Since this metagame isn't really the largest in terms of numbers, banning more and more Pokemon doesn't seem to fix anything. This solution keeps us with three Pokemon, and with only Magneton and Chansey banned. I think that is completely fair. Thoughts?

 

[Cheryl.]

Banning abilities doesn't sound like a bad idea, because all of those three abilities have only 1 (or 2 mons in Speed Boost's case) that can have it, and banning these abilities will affect the metagame, but it will make it better by "nerfing" these broken Pokemon that are being suspected lately. Sure, I guess it makes Whirlipede a bit less viable in Speed Boost's case, but hey, maybe we'll find a use for it as a bulky pivot of some sort that sets up Spikes and stuff! But yeah, let's get some more discussion on these suspects so we can reach a conclusion.

 

[Funbot28]

I still don't like the idea for complex banning things for the sake of keeping mons in the meta. Smogon really tries to stray away of this type of tiring and even though there aren't an other users of the ability, we should just stick with banning the mons if they prove to be broken and should not beat around the bush. Anyways what would be the point if we would arguably be decreasing the viability of the mons immensely.

Edit: Idk my post was janked but it's fixed now

 

[Maysoon]

I go to sleep and this thread blows up... anyway, I find it hard to choose a side for this suspect/meta shift. From one position yes, the metagame is so offensive and it becomes a game of praying your opponent doesn't run one of the many top tie threats that your team couldn't find the room to handle. In this metagame the walls we have either:

a. Don't have reliable recovery

b. Are extremely one dimensional

c. And all are worn down extremely quickly, there are too many threats

If you have a basic core with a special wallbreaker a physical wallbreaker and a sweeper you can beat every single team in Middle Cup (And now Eviolite is unbanned) ok moving on to the suspects...

I agree with banning abilities, It helps maintain a large amount of Pokémon in the metagame but also stops certain threats from becoming outright broken. However; with the unbanning of Eviolite I think the only ban I agree with is Contrary and maybe Speed Boost. Protean is an interesting case and I think that before deciding I'd want to see how Frogadier fairs with a more bulky metagame. This being said if things like Dusclops or P2 are banned I'd say get rid of Protean. Contrary invalidates most walls after they switch in and Speed Boost is another iffy subject. Speed Boost is basically what keeps Combusken a top tier threat but banning it hurts Whirlipede, however Speed Boost does make it way to easy to clean games with Servine, I think that we ban either Speed Boost or Contrary first. The two abilities work great in conjunction but Contrary seems more threatening on its own. With eviolite it becomes a lot easier to check Combusken so I'd say we leave it and see how things go.

If we are to stick with banning the aforementioned mons I cant agree with any of them but Servine simply because Eviolite is unbanned. Kadabra seems like it might be a lot easier to deal with now especially since more things can wall it and para it. I'd say that again, we give it some time with an Eviolite meta and then decide whether or not it is simply too powerful. Combusken I touched upon in my previous paragraph. I think with Eviolite a lot more mons can take it on and if we got rid of Servine there would be less that it could pass to with Servine honestly being the best thing to pass to in a meta with Eviolite. Anyway, these are my quick thoughts, I'll mess around and maybe change my mind on some things.

 

[Jaguar360]

I still don't like the idea for complex banning things for the sake of keeping mons in the meta. Smogon really tries to stray away of this type of tiring and even though there aren't an other users of the ability, we should just stick with banning the mons if they prove to be broken and should not beat around the bush. Anyways what would be the point if we would arguably be decreasing the viability of the mons immensely.

Edit: Idk my post was janked but it's fixed now

If you're talking about the abilities, they wouldn't be complex bans since they would be banning the ability as a whole. Contrary and Protean would also only affect a single Pokemon each, so that's another benefit of doing that.

EDIT: Btw, both Frogadier and Servine would be viable with Torrent/Contrary and Whirlipede and Combusken could still find some niches without Speed Boost. The collateral damage wouldn't be too bad with the banned abilities.

 

[Jajoken]

Sorry to hop in out of nowhere, but please don't ban Speed Boost. I have not played Middle Cup, but just looking at the viability rankings, Whirlipede is perfectly balanced. Banning the whole ability basically only has a 50% success rate, assuming Combusken is broken. That's like OU banning Protean instead of Greninja while Kecleon is around, or banning Multiscale instead of Lugia while Dragonite is around. Yeah you only have "collateral damage" of one other Pokemon (a Pokemon that isn't even viable in OU in Kecleon's case), but that doesn't change the fact that you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Unless you can make the Shadow Tag argument that "this ability on its own regardless of users is just inherently uncompetitive so we should get rid of it entirely," then you shouldn't ban it.

I realize that you're trying to preserve the diversity of the meta, but its not like there aren't other Fire/Fighting types to use. Hell, without Speed Boost, Monferno seems like a straight-up better Pokemon than Combusken (better moveset, better Speed, better/same ability -- less immediate power, but not by much). Just ban Combusken if you need to ban it (although you'd have to ditch the cute banner ;_;)

No comment on Protean or Contrary because those are less messy, although I'd urge you to reconsider if a Middle Cup-valid Pokemon with those abilities arrives in Gen 7 and isn't broken.

 

[Cheryl.]

Just gonna paste the page with the updated VR here, unfixable maybe you could update the second post with the updated VR?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/middle-cup-oras.3524287/page-3

 

[skies]

so i thought about it more. speed boost is not the ability to ban. it would have to be combusken. it just doesn't seem fair to whirlipede, which is niche as is, but it's actually pretty cool. i built a team with it today and banning it would just be a shame. here's how i'm going to see it from now on:

1. ban contrary, protean, kadabra, and combusken; unban frogadier. some mix of this.
2. ban servine, kadabra, and combusken. some mix of this.
3. ban contrary, kadabra, and combusken.

i'm thinking individual bans is how the voting will go. like ban contrary y/n? ban protean y/n? hit all the bases in one fell swoop.

 

[Ununhexium]

Ban Togetic imo broken af

 

[Cheryl.]

Ban Togetic imo broken af

Could you give reasoning as to why you think Togetic is broken? Would be very nice

 

[Ununhexium]

Could you give reasoning as to why you think Togetic is broken? Would be very nice

'Twas a joke

But in reality, Togetic is very good in this meta thanks to its excellent bulk and defensive typing. It's stats and typing let it check common threats such as Krokorok, Combusken, non NP Rock/Ice Servine (admittedly most are) and more. Also, it's an excellent Baton Passer and can actually sweep with a boost of its own. Also, even without boosts, Baton Pass is useful as a makeshift U-turn. I've been using Dazzling Gleam / Roost / Nasty Plot / Baton Pass for reference.

Can't talk too much because on phone but Togetic is good and you should all use it!!

 

[Threw]

I wouldn't mind option #1 from unfix's post/banning Combusken in general. Someone above said something along these lines (too lazy to scroll up and see whom), but it's a very lackluster mon without Speed Boost anyway, almost completely outclassed by Monferno even though it's stronger because of its awful Speed tier. I'm willing to give up what will end up being a subpar mon to keep a solid one in Venipede.

That said, it's important to re-emphasize that Speed Boost Combusken isn't inherently the problem for the most part, since even at +1 (neutral) it's still outsped by +Spe base 95s and above, its typing is defensively weak to a number of super common types, and it doesn't hit unbearably hard; honestly, to compare it to Kadabra is a massive stretch in my view, since bulky stuff with SpDef investment will still wall it pretty effectively. Rather, it's the fact that it's Baton Passing +2 Speed to Servine or something similarly very threatening.

Therefore, I think the possibility of banning Baton Pass should at least be entertained. I understand that normally it would be absolutely unthinkable to ban a move just because one mon uses it too well, but I think it's important to understand that we have to make room for pragmatism in a tier that is so short on mons. The only other mon in the tier that even has it in its movepool is Togetic, and it hardly relies on BP for viability; access to Heal Bell, T-Wave, Defog, Roost, etc. is more than enough to conserve its ranking and fill 4 slots.

My suggestion is that we conduct what might be the first MC suspect test by using Combusken without BP for a short while. I don't see the harm in at least trying this out, as it may be that it isn't so broken if it can't support its team so well.

This entire suggestion is moot if someone already has extensive use of Combusken without BP and can reasonably argue that it's still borked, but I have a feeling that isn't the case.

 

[Mazz]

I typically use Baton Pass on Togetic to pass Wishes or conserve momentum, and I've heard of it being used to pass Nasty Plot boosts. I don't like the "ban Baton Pass" route, and complex bans on the order of "ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass" creates a slippery slope of what is and isn't broken. You ban something because it's broken in the metagame, and Baton Pass is not. The combination of its Combusken's ability and it is, and since a Speed Boost ban isn't going to happen, you get rid of the only variable left - Combusken. Addition by subtraction.

And thus, option #1 according to unfixable's post becomes a solution to our problem, except now all the kinks have been worked out. God help us if Torrent Frogadier proves to be too much for Middle Cup to handle and we all look like morons for bringing it back.

Because we don't have a ladder, we can't exactly have a traditional "suspect test". I wish that the naming of these suspects hadn't been named as such, rather that they had been just declared suspect. Public voting isn't a terrible idea, but I'd rather the decision was left to people who actually play Middle Cup. Truth be told, I'm more partial to leaving the decision to the Middle Cup council. The playerbase is still quite small, and even if we had an official ladder, it would be dead the majority of the time. Leaving this decision to those in charge is an appropriate way of determining what should and shouldn't be banned until the playerbase can support a legitimate suspect test. Not like this vote would count towards TC anyways. BrandonBeast and unfixable if you two could chime in on this, it would help us reach a verdict.

 

[skies]

I typically use Baton Pass on Togetic to pass Wishes or conserve momentum, and I've heard of it being used to pass Nasty Plot boosts. I don't like the "ban Baton Pass" route, and complex bans on the order of "ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass" creates a slippery slope of what is and isn't broken. You ban something because it's broken in the metagame, and Baton Pass is not. The combination of its Combusken's ability and it is, and since a Speed Boost ban isn't going to happen, you get rid of the only variable left - Combusken. Addition by subtraction.

And thus, option #1 according to unfixable's post becomes a solution to our problem, except now all the kinks have been worked out. God help us if Torrent Frogadier proves to be too much for Middle Cup to handle and we all look like morons for bringing it back.

Because we don't have a ladder, we can't exactly have a traditional "suspect test". I wish that the naming of these suspects hadn't been named as such, rather that they had been just declared suspect. Public voting isn't a terrible idea, but I'd rather the decision was left to people who actually play Middle Cup. Truth be told, I'm more partial to leaving the decision to the Middle Cup council. The playerbase is still quite small, and even if we had an official ladder, it would be dead the majority of the time. Leaving this decision to those in charge is an appropriate way of determining what should and shouldn't be banned until the playerbase can support a legitimate suspect test. Not like this vote would count towards TC anyways. BrandonBeast and unfixable if you two could chime in on this, it would help us reach a verdict.

I'm thinking you, me, and BrandonBeast, the "council" at the moment, should vote on it. Since this is a relatively small playerbase, an official suspect of sorts doesn't seem reliable. And without having a ladder, we can't judge really on a player's capacity. We can make this vote I'd say.

 

[Maysoon]

I completely agree, we don't want complex bans. The council should vote on it and when Gen 7 rolls around maybe Combusken wont be as broken. As for the points unfixable brought up I agree with the first point, Frogadier would be a cool edition and make for another TSpiker, albeit not that great after losing Protean. Overall the main priority should be stabilizing the meta and getting rid of mons like Combusken where there isn't a reason not to use them and they have very little going against them, having one solid counter in Lampent put too much pressure on teams that didn't run it.

 

[skies]

Votes:

1. Combusken: 2 ban | 1 abstain
2. Contrary: 3 ban
3. Protean: 3 ban
4. Kadabra: 3 ban
5. Frogadier: 3 unban

Reasoning:

Hide

Ok here's my reasoning

Combusken: Combusken is broken on the fact that it is able to threaten teams immensely with Speed Boost, being able to outspeed the whole unboosted tier after +1. It even hits hard, 2HKOing the majority of the tier with Life Orb and it's STAB moves alone. Baton Pass makes it even harder to handle, being able to pass Speed Boosts to something like Servine to basically guarantee a win if the appropriate checks and counters are removed. Swords Dance sets can also surprise special walls that could wall the special set, making Combusken unpredictable.

Contrary: Contrary is the ability that makes Servine "broken", not Servine itself, and no other Pokemon in Middle Cup can have it, so a ban is good.

Protean: Same deal as Contrary, the ability makes the mon broken, not the mon itself, and no one else gets it either, you know the deal.

Kadabra: mazz already gave a really good paragraph about why Kadabra is broken, but yeah, the Speed, the power and coverage making checks sparse, and a great ability and the ability to guarantee a kill every match is way too much for MC to handle.

Frogadier: Since Protean is up for getting banned, Frogadier should be unbanned. It does have some decent power, Speed, and coverage behind it, but the lack of STAB moves now that Protean is banned makes it easier to deal with as special walls like Roselia don't have a hard time against it. Balanced threat, should be unbanned.

Combusken: This is addition by subtraction really - Baton Pass is not broken, Speed Boost is not broken. The combination of the two makes Combusken a nightmare. Getting to +2 or +3 isn't hard for this Pokemon, and dealing with whatever it's passed that Speed to usually ends up beating anything that would imagine switching in on it.

Contrary: Breaks Servine. Has no real counters due to how Servine can be played, so instead of getting rid of the Pokemon, we'll just get rid of the ability.

Protean: Breaks Frogadier, same situation as Servine.

Kadabra: See every argument I've made about keeping it.

Frogadier: Not broken with Torrent.

Combusken: Abstaining simply because I think that Combusken, while a huge threat, isn't as necessarily *broken* as the others.

Contrary: Is what makes Servine broken, so getting rid of the ability versus the Pokemon makes Servine still usable which might be nice.

Protean: See above. Having Frogadier will be nice as well.

Kadabra: Completely broken with offense, Speed, and Magic Guard. Absolutely ban.

Frogadier: Torrent doesn't make this thing broken.

So that means, Combusken, Contrary, Protean, and Kadabra are banned. Frogadier is unbanned.

Thanks folks!

I will update the OP with an official banlist.

 

[Cheryl.]

Yay Kirlia is viable guys

Will update the VR with the banned mons and Frogadier and some words on the meta once it settles

 

[skies]

updated with an even cuter banner by maysoon! ;]

here are the *prelim* changes i'd make to the vr:

1. 
   : unranked (banned lol)
   
2. 
   : unranked (^)
   
3. 
   : b rank - like no niche but we'll see. glare offensive sets mite be cool.
   
4. 
   : b+ rank - stellar coverage sets it apart from other water-types.

we'll see how it plays out!

 

[Whydon]

: b rank - like no niche but we'll see. glare offensive sets mite be cool.
we'll see how it plays out!

This will most likely go down in viability, I expect it to be no higher than B- in a near future (it's extremely difficult to do any testing without a ladder though). I agree with all of the bans, I'm glad no complicated bans were made just for the sake of keeping more mons in the tier. :).

 

[Take Azelfie]

TIME FOR A NEW BANNER AND A META WHERE I DON'T HAVE TO USE USE SOME TYPE OF LURE BERRY

 

[Threw]

Some notes:

First, I'd like to say I'm glad to see how efficiently and effectively the council handled these bans! Unanimous votes are nice, too.

Second, I've added Frogadier to the Speed tiers and removed the banned mons. It is the second fastest unboosted mon in the tier behind Electabuzz.

Third, speaking of Electabuzz, you might be tempted to run Modest now since the two most important things it was outspeeding, Kadabra and +1 Combusken, are gone, but Frogadier does massive damage to it, so I really wouldn't suggest it.

Finally, again concerning Frogadier, based on the few calcs I've had time to run, I have a feeling Frogadier will be moving much higher than B+ soon...but we'll see

 

[Maysoon]

Frogadier is actually looking really cool, it seems pretty threatening with the unpredictability on whether it is running physical or special.

 

[Jaguar360]

2nd favorite mon available again yay! ^_^

So with Kadabra banned, Frogadier's now the 2nd fastest mon in the tier which is incredible. It could very well be the best revenge killer in Middle Cup. With Torrent as Frogadier's only ability, Hydro Pump becomes a necessity on nearly all sets and Gunk Shot becomes far less useful, though still helpful for defeating some variants of Clefairy.

This is probably going to be Frogadier's best set for now:
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- U-turn

Dark Pulse still seems like a decent option for it, but without Protean, Hydro Pump outdamages it on everything that it would want to hit, at the cost of accuracy and PP of course. With Torrent, Choice Specs also seems to be a viable alternative, giving a very spammable and powerful Hydro Pump on the second fastest mon in the tier.

252 SpA Choice Specs Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefairy: 187-222 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Frogadier Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sliggoo: 146-172 (42.9 - 50.5%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Frogadier's Toxic Spikes lead set and Scarf set should also be pretty prevalent and viable. Scarf outspeeding everything at +1 (as from Electabuzz) is incredible and it has U-turn to preserve momentum even if it's not as strong as before. I think that Frogadier will be a major threat in the new Middle Cup, though thankfully not a broken one anymore. Electabuzz will be one of the main things holding it back as well as Sliggoo probably.

EDIT: Specially Defensive P2 is a full stop still - 252 SpA Choice Specs Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 148-175 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Maysoon]

An experimental set:

Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Power-Up Punch
- U-turn

This set abuses Frogadier's decent Atk stat and amazing coverage as well as its ability to lure in Pokemon that would want to wall the special set and pick up a quick 2HKO. Waterfall is obligatory STAB because Frogadier doesn't have Protean it NEEDS to run a Water-type move. Gunk Shot is a high BP attack that kills Fairies in a cinch. Low Kick and Power-Up punch are for coverage, I prefer Power-Up Punch because it let's Frogadier get more guaranteed 2HKOs and lets it clean late game much more easily. U-turn grabs momentum and chip damage which is always nice especially since Frogadier forces a lot of switches. Max Max is used and Adamant is an option especially since Frogadier can bluff Jolly/Timid easily. Jolly is possibly the better nature but you lose power which Frogadier needs to make it's Atk stat less mediocre. Overall this set is a bit more niche but it works. You could even run a mixed attacker with Hydro Pump over Waterfall and Grass Knot over Low Kick.

EDIT: I'd like to point out that the OP says Eviolite is still banned but I though the council decided to unban it.

 

[Mazz]

EDIT: I'd like to point out that the OP says Eviolite is still banned but I though the council decided to unban it.

We have not unbanned Eviolite, and we're not planning on doing so.