M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #2: Dragonite

#26
Reqs here, not many players on the ladder so it took a while to hit the COIL. I'm voting Ban. Aerilate is crazy good and I wouldn't be surprised if Genesect got suspected too. I had crazy success with it and even aerilate Entei. Here's the team I used for the climb. (Swapped Entei for Genesect about halfway thru) http://pastebin.com/aSZ6Q9X8
 

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#31
This was so god damn cancerous suspect test theres like 2 people playing MnM around 9pm

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Vote: BAN

Ok, this Lizard needs to go. And I will explain reasons by comparing other Pinsirite users:




Genesect:

* 120 Atk, 120 Spa, 99 Spe
* Hasty nature is mandated with Extreme Speed due to legality issues with 95 Defense.
* Main weapon: Extreme Speed, Explosion, Techno Blast, Iron Head, U-turn, Ice Beam, etc.
* Set-up Move: Shift Gear


I used to run this guy for surprise factor so please don't hate?

Zygarde:

* 100 Atk, unusable SpA, 95 Spe
* 121 Defense allows somewhat easier setup.
* Main weapon: Extreme Speed, Return / Frustration, Thousand Arrows / Waves, Stone Edge, etc.
* Set-up Move: Dragon Dance




Entei:

* 115 Atk, unviable 90 SpA, 100 Spe
* Vomits blood on Stealth Rock and loses its eyeball on SR switch after Mega Evolution (25% dmg -> 50% dmg from Stealth Rock).
* Main Weapon: Sacred Fire, Extreme Speed, Stone Edge, Bulldoze(?), etc.
* Set-up Move: Howl(...)


...

Now lets compare all three guys with...

Dragonite:

* 134 Atk, 100 SpA, 80 Spe
* Access to Multiscale before Mega Evo, 95 Def, 100 SpD, Ground immunity
* Main weapon: Extreme Speed, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Return / Frustration, Fire / Thunder / Ice Punch, etc.


...

If you are not convinced yet, here's my thought:

Accessibility to Extreme Speed.
Multiscale that allows Dragonite to set up in front of its mutual counter, including support Arceus forms.
Highest Atk stat among all 'mons with Extreme Speed that are allowed to hold Mega Stone.

Also,
while Genesect has more versatility than other two, it is usually walled by Venusaurite Zapdos that is everywhere.
Zygarde-C can use Stone Edge, but it usually suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome. Using Thousand Arrows twice? It usually gives Zapdos a momentum to use U-turn before it can be super effectively hit.
Entei has better Atk with Stone Edge but has no viable set-up moves.

But Dragonite?
134 Atk grants it the strongest wallbreaking potency, and it can run Adamant nature in addition thanks to Dragon Dance making up its Speed.
As mentioned, it can set up in front of its potential counter thanks to its decent bulk paired with Multiscale.
If you argue this can be solved by setting Stealth Rock... you are not aware that Sablenite and Absolite is in every competitive MnM teams.
Access to Earthquake means Steel types with the exception of Skarmory and Celesteela cannot wall Dragonite.
Stone Edge, although it has 20% accuracy if you are not a premiere Showdown user that bribed programmers , hits Zapdos like a truck, especially at +1. With a little prior damage and Stealth Rock, it will die.

So Dragonite has,
arguably best set-up move (Shift Gear is just signature move for certain robots),
access to Extreme Speed,
high attack of 134,
and wide movepool.

So please get this thing f out of MnM ASAP.

Also it doesn't always go for Pinsirite. Some surprise factors run Glaitite or Absolite.

This is my second post in this thread so I might not know much. What do you guys think?
 
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LdlLdlLdl

formerly Fighter Red
#32

I am voting to Ban Dragonite, although for some odd reasons.
Of course, Dragonite can set up very easily and reliably with Multiscale, allowing it to sweep unprepared teams or wallbreak. However, before the suspect test, I only used 1 team. Somehow that team carried me high into the ladder, but it wouldn't do well against stall teams or some other playstyles that I wasn't used to playing. Whenever the suspect test started, I tried trading Dragonite for Genesect in my original team. It was good, but it made me realize that I should open up and try new teams and playstyles. Dragonite was simply too good and straightforward. So I made another semistall team, a hyper offense team, and a stall team. Using these new teams has helped me become a better player by understanding my opponents' strategies more and gives me new ideas. So, for the sake of the actual metagame and helping players become better, I say we should ban Dragonite.
 

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#36
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I am going to vote No Ban for Dragonite. This is an extremely powerful and potent foe, but only if you don't have an answer for it. There are several checks/counters that have been created for DNite, and some of them are as followed.

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Primal Groudon runs around the tier like no one else's business and has a variety of ways to beat Dragonite. Due to its massive defensive bulk it can take a hit from DNite.
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 190-224 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO
If Primal Groudon, or anything for that matter, sets up stealth rocks before DNite gets in, multiscale will not be active and Stone Edge kills. Groudon also gets access to moves like Swords Dance, Bulk Up, and Rock Polish, allowing it to outspeed and beat DNite 1v1.

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Glailitite Weavile is a common threat in the tier, and gets access to Fake Out with the refridgerate ability. If DNite has any chip damage on it, this will kill it.
252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Weavile does die to the oncoming extreme speed, but it kills if you get any form of chip.

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Tapu Koko can hold a variety of mega stones, usually being absolite, aerodactylite, or something along those lines. Tapu Lele, as I've seen it, usually holds the Alakazite. These two can beat DNite, as for Koko it resists the oncoming ESpeed and kills with Dazzling Gleam.
252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 444-524 (137.4 - 162.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Tapu Lele is an even bigger counter, as before it mega evolves, it sets up psychic terrain, giving immunity to extreme speed and killing with moonblast.

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Terrakion can do the same thing as Dragonite, holding the Pinsirite, mega evolving, and now resisting the flying and dragon moves Dragonite will throw out as well as being immune to earthquake. Stone edge gets fired off, and no more dragonite.


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Of the several walls in the tier, these are the 4 that come to mind for me. Although flying is neutral on Tapu Fini and Ferrothorn, A defensive Blue Orb Tapu Fini as well as a Sablenite Ferrothorn means it isn't doing that much and won't be killing it quickly like most of its prey. Zapdos is immune or resists its main offensive moves of earthquake and extreme speed and gets a defense boost from the Venusaurite, and needs to be hit by a powerful Dragon Claw or Outrage to even start to take damage. However, it gets access to roost, getting rid of all that damage. And then of course, the biggest reason why we should not ban Dragonite, is Blissey. I personally use Slowbronite, so that's the calcs I'll be using.

252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 171-202 (23.9 - 28.3%) -- 96.2% chance to 4HKO
+6 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 679-801 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

And so, Dragonite is beaten by the lovely pink blob that is Mrs. Blissey here. Dragonite has several counters and checks in the tier even if it is a potent threat, which is why I'm voting do not ban.
 

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Megazard

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#39

Rather disappointed I even had 3 losses but w/e. Still voting ban but a few things worry me. Zygarde and Genesect are still ridiculously good (I dont think Zygarde is worse than Dnite at all), and the suspect ladder for some crazy reason banned the mon you're trying to figure out if it's broken. You remove mons if they effect building, like Dugtrio, not if you want to see if they're broken because it doesn't give people the opportunity to play against them. A lot of these ban posts have no reasoning and some of them use reasoning like "it'll eventually be broken with other stones" which is ridiculous. Overall I still think the result will be what the majority has in mind but the way this has gone is a little concerning and I'd use it as an example for how to run future suspects.
 
#40
In my opinion, Dragonite should not get banned. It is really strong and can destroy many teams, but i do not consider it broken. There is couple good checks such as refrigerate fake out mons, zapdos, def arceus, primal groudon etc. After this suspect, i decided to vote DO NOT BAN.
Finally, i would like to say: PLS BAN BLISSEY INSTEAD...
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#44

Voting ban. Its probably a bit too late to matter, but here's my reasoning.
With a boost, Dragonite can easily overcome most of its supposed checks, barring Weavile and Rockceus. At +1 even PDon is not a clear answer:



+1 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon-Primal: 258-304 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
while 252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 154 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 272-322 (75.3 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dragonite is faster, and it usually gets the dragon dance up easily by switching into something that cant hit back hard enough through multiscale.
Running return, at +1 it can take down Tapu Lele in one hit, Slowbronite users like Ferrothorn or Blissey in two. Running stone edge, it can (with a bit of luck) deal with venusaurite Zapdos and pinsirite Terrakion.

BUCK vs RUDY
(Ice Age 3 anyone?)

Glalitite Weavile can nip Dnite in the bud by breaking multiscale with fake out, and deal a very likely OHKO if multiscale is already broken:
252 Atk Refrigerate Weavile Fake Out vs. 154 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 328-388 (90.8 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO



Rockceus survives the earthquake and kills with judgment :
+1 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 332-392 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Stone Plate Arceus-Rock Judgment vs. 154 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 408-480 (113 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

However neither of these can reliably switch in to a boosted extremespeed. for example:
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Rock: 119-141 (26.8 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
which causes Rockceus to die to quake the next turn. Basically Dnite nets at least one KO by default when it sets up. And it can do so against almost any mon which doesnt counter it, thanks to multiscale.

Stealth rock does spoil Dnite's fun, since without multiscale it's little better than a glorified Zygarde. Though with sablenite and absolite everywhere, setting up rocks becomes risky. An exploitable weakness to SR is still probably the best argument against banning the dragon. The tier also feels a little lacklustre without it, dominated mostly by lucarionite Pheromosa which is running around unchecked in Dnite's absence. Keeping it though would center the meta around the same old fake out vs atespeed battles. I'm still a little split on this one, but I eventually decided to go with ban.
 
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#45
I see too many stupid posts about dnite's check and counters so let me just share my opinions on them real quick.

How is Pdon an answer to dnite lmao, if anything, Pdon is usually one of the mons it could potentially set up on, assuming that multiscale is still on. It isn't even a switch-in to it, cause dnite will be at +1 by the time it comes in and can either set up again than evolve to ohko with eq, or attack with multiscale on, than evolve next turn and eq again....
Only time Pdon could handle dnite is when it's at full health and multiscale is off...but let's be honest Lol..many pokes could do that

Also about zapdos...it has to be close to full health for it to take a +1 sedge from dnite and If it lacks hp ice, it could easily set up again for the ohko, so even that struggles with it....

Also about all the weavile posts....that poke is able to even check regigias and kyruem, 2 previously banned pokes. Everything has an offensive counter, but it can still be broken

Terrak does literally nothing to nite. It can set up on it 1v1 and ohko it with eq the next turn..same goes for koko and many other shit offensive counters that most mentioned
 
#46
I see too many stupid posts about dnite's check and counters so let me just share my opinions on them real quick.

How is Pdon an answer to dnite lmao, if anything, Pdon is usually one of the mons it could potentially set up on, assuming that multiscale is still on. It isn't even a switch-in to it, cause dnite will be at +1 by the time it comes in and can either set up again than evolve to ohko with eq, or attack with multiscale on, than evolve next turn and eq again....
Only time Pdon could handle dnite is when it's at full health and multiscale is off...but let's be honest Lol..many pokes could do that

Also about zapdos...it has to be close to full health for it to take a +1 sedge from dnite and If it lacks hp ice, it could easily set up again for the ohko, so even that struggles with it....

Also about all the weavile posts....that poke is able to even check regigias and kyruem, 2 previously banned pokes. Everything has an offensive counter, but it can still be broken

Terrak does literally nothing to nite. It can set up on it 1v1 and ohko it with eq the next turn..same goes for koko and many other shit offensive counters that most mentioned
It is true that many things have potential checks but looks like people think just because there are checks for certain threats means they do not deserve a ban. But this is not true as it was emphasized in the post above.

The reason why Dragonite is very prominent pokemon in the tier is because of Multiscale, as Chloe mentioned this multiple times (in discord or in this thread, I don't remember). Things like Genesect cannot set Shift Gear in front of their mutual counters, but Dragonite can just set up, Mega Evolve next turn, and retaliate.
 
#47
And Dragonite can even do so in front of the aforementioned Pinsirite Terrakion, and still survive a Quick Attack (most of the time)... which is coming from a very powerful attacker. (And you should be using Lucarionite for that in most cases, anyways)

If that isn't a testament to Dragonite's bulk, then I don't know what is.

But yeah, Multiscale gives it a far easier time setting up, especially when compared to Flygon... which is good, but still outclassed by Dragonite.
We knew of the power of the -ate speed set back in Gen 6 Mix and Mega... but it ended up being banned because of everything else.... which denies even Pinsirite Cobalion, Skarmory, and Celesteela a good chance to counter Dragonite, as it can be packing an Electric attack. Or a Fire attack. Or Iron Head... Dragonite has everything covered, and on both ends of the spectrum, too.

Dragonite always has a counter.... but you might not know what it is until half of your team is KOed from it.

Also, Genesect's big thing is that it doesn't need to set up to sweep (thanks Techno Blast...), but that argument's for another day.
 
#50
While I haven't got the qualifications to vote, I would definitely vote to ban Dragonite. it's just so versatile, and Multiscale makes it way too easy for it to set up. I have never gotten the chance to use it, though. Either way, it will be nice to have it gone. I do wonder, however, what would fill the power vacuum if it gets banned...