M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #4: Shaymin-Sky

Laxpras

Laxpras F baby, the F is for phenomenal
is a Pre-Contributor
#26
Why you should get reqs & vote (or change your vote) Do Not Ban on Skymin

I'll be getting reqs and voting soon enough but I'm hoping to try to show why I think Skymin has gotten an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction that has people calling for a ban which I see as unnecessary.

1. Its typing sucks, leaving it with more checks and vulnerable to priority
Grass & flying is very no bueno, leaving Skymin hopeless against the many Steel Types in MnM. And before everyone starts yelling "but Lax, Earth Power!" Earth Power isn't even the best 4th move, Substitute is, good job hitting Skarmory, Magearna still isn't 2HKOd, etc. I'll get into more specific checks later, but sticking to typing just be wary of the fact that it does not hit any of the special defensive walls in the meta (Blissey, Ho Oh, Toxapex etc) super effectively, and it has a bad matchup in general. The only reason I advocated for a Skymin ban in AAA was because Tinted Lens exists.

2. Fast, but not that fast - Skymin has a horrible matchup against offense
Any mon with 108 base speed and Absolite or Metagrossite outspeeds Skymin and can likely OHKO since Skymin is frail for this metagame. Notably we have Kartana, Koko, Latios, Archeops, Gengar, Greninja, Keldeo, Noivern, Terrakion, Thundurus.
This would not be that much of an issue if it wasn't for Skymin's huge weakness to -Atespeed. Between speed and priority and an often inability to get a pure OHKO, Skymin is actually a poor option against offense. It is best suited against bulkier teams, but tbh is not as good as things like Hoopa.

3. It doesn't OHKO stuff!!!!!!
Big one here. Skymin just doesnt OHKO a lot since MnM is really bulky and Seed Flare has shit typing and Air Slash has low power. Zygarde, Pdon, blah blah I could go on forever it just doesnt ohko a lot, and it is ohkod by pretty much everything.
Yes sleep is why Skymin is scary, I get that. But Sleep Clause exists, and Sablenite is on sooo prevalent in this meta its honestly not that scary. I hate to be that "just play better" guy, but, just play better.

4. Its checks already exist and are viable regardless of Skymin's existence in the meta.
See any mon listed above as offensive checks, and throw in any mon that learns Priority (Genesect, Entei, Weavile, to name a few that are extremely common - side note - they also switch in besides Weavile!)
More common checks:
Blissey, Skarmory, Ho Oh, Magearna, Heatran (unless Epower), Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Aegislash

Don't get bamboozled, vote Do Not Banoozle.
 
#28
Pardon me, Laxpras. You made a good post, but let me remind everyone that you're running Sablenite Skarm, Sleep Talk Ho-oh, and Genesect (yuck to that last one) on the same team.

Allow me to counter those points, here, so each of you can go out and vote in a balanced fashion.

1.) Bug/Fighting was also a garbage typing. Having a bad typing is not necessarily a big curse in Mix and Mega as it is in other metas. Water types are also fairly popular in Mix and Mega...
And no, Earth Power IS a good move. Hits Fire and Steel for SE damage. Both of those are needed. If you're giving anything up, it's Air Slash... You also have the only Skarmory I've seen in a while. Anyways, the sleep move is one of the big reasons Shaymin-Sky is a threat...

2.) You forget that there is an opportunity cost to running Absolite for most of these users. Archeops wants to run an -ate stone (though that doesn't actually hurt the Shaymin matchup too much), Noivern DEFINITELY wants an -ate stone (and Shaymin is likely going to retreat anyways), Gengar with Pidgeotite is a big threat, Terrakion wants to run Lucarionite for power reasons, and Thundurus also likes Pidgeotite (again you'll hear that from someone else...) Also, Hoopa dies to U-turn. Just an FYI. It's good, but being slow hurts it. And yes, 147 speed is FAST.

3.) Expecting everything to be OHKOed is not how you deal with Mix and Mega. Shaymin's not meant to do that, anyways. It incapacitates a team member, but is also very powerful for that. Shaymin guy can also play better. If you lead wrong, Shaymin can significantly punish you by putting the lead to sleep.

4.) On the flipside, Shaymin-Sky significantly restricts what goes on teams in the meta. All of those also take significant damage if the Shaymin player predicts right. (Entei's a big reason to run Air Slash, really) And those listed above, as I said, usually need to sacrifice something to run Absolite. To be frank, Magic Bounce is already forced on teams by Gengar itself, but Shaymin brings this nonsense to a whole new level.

Also, Toxapex is most certainly NOT a good check. Gets Seed Flared/Earth Powered.

For more information, check my suspect post. Usage stats are coming soon, too.


Whatever you do, get out there and vote what you think about Shaymin-Sky! More representation is always better.
 
#29
Why you should get reqs & vote (or change your vote) Do Not Ban on Skymin

I'll be getting reqs and voting soon enough but I'm hoping to try to show why I think Skymin has gotten an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction that has people calling for a ban which I see as unnecessary.

1. Its typing sucks, leaving it with more checks and vulnerable to priority
Grass & flying is very no bueno, leaving Skymin hopeless against the many Steel Types in MnM. And before everyone starts yelling "but Lax, Earth Power!" Earth Power isn't even the best 4th move, Substitute is, good job hitting Skarmory, Magearna still isn't 2HKOd, etc. I'll get into more specific checks later, but sticking to typing just be wary of the fact that it does not hit any of the special defensive walls in the meta (Blissey, Ho Oh, Toxapex etc) super effectively, and it has a bad matchup in general. The only reason I advocated for a Skymin ban in AAA was because Tinted Lens exists.

2. Fast, but not that fast - Skymin has a horrible matchup against offense
Any mon with 108 base speed and Absolite or Metagrossite outspeeds Skymin and can likely OHKO since Skymin is frail for this metagame. Notably we have Kartana, Koko, Latios, Archeops, Gengar, Greninja, Keldeo, Noivern, Terrakion, Thundurus.
This would not be that much of an issue if it wasn't for Skymin's huge weakness to -Atespeed. Between speed and priority and an often inability to get a pure OHKO, Skymin is actually a poor option against offense. It is best suited against bulkier teams, but tbh is not as good as things like Hoopa.

3. It doesn't OHKO stuff!!!!!!
Big one here. Skymin just doesnt OHKO a lot since MnM is really bulky and Seed Flare has shit typing and Air Slash has low power. Zygarde, Pdon, blah blah I could go on forever it just doesnt ohko a lot, and it is ohkod by pretty much everything.
Yes sleep is why Skymin is scary, I get that. But Sleep Clause exists, and Sablenite is on sooo prevalent in this meta its honestly not that scary. I hate to be that "just play better" guy, but, just play better.

4. Its checks already exist and are viable regardless of Skymin's existence in the meta.
See any mon listed above as offensive checks, and throw in any mon that learns Priority (Genesect, Entei, Weavile, to name a few that are extremely common - side note - they also switch in besides Weavile!)
More common checks:
Blissey, Skarmory, Ho Oh, Magearna, Heatran (unless Epower), Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Aegislash

Don't get bamboozled, vote Do Not Banoozle.
I have some problems with this post.

1. Its typing sucks, leaving it with more checks and vulnerable to priority
Grass & flying is very no bueno, leaving Skymin hopeless against the many Steel Types in MnM. And before everyone starts yelling "but Lax, Earth Power!" Earth Power isn't even the best 4th move, Substitute is, good job hitting Skarmory, Magearna still isn't 2HKOd, etc. I'll get into more specific checks later, but sticking to typing just be wary of the fact that it does not hit any of the special defensive walls in the meta (Blissey, Ho Oh, Toxapex etc) super effectively, and it has a bad matchup in general. The only reason I advocated for a Skymin ban in AAA was because Tinted Lens exists.
Shaymin-Sky's typing is not fantastic as you have mentioned, but what makes it so potent is it's main STAB in Seed Flare combined with Earth Power coverage. Before you question why you should be running Earth Power I would ask why you should be running Air Slash in the first place? It is far weaker and doesn't have nearly the utility of Seed Flare while also not hitting anything hard that Seed Flare can't. The set that has done the most work and performed the best in my experience is Grass Whistle, Seed Flare, Earth Power, Substitue. The idea behind this set is to maximize the amount of chances you can get to hit the opponent with a Seed Flare thus giving you a 40% chance to double your damage output as long as they stay in, Air Slash really has no place on Skymin outside of hitting other Shaymin-Sky which you shouldn't be risking, atespeed mons such as zygarde or genesect or Buzzwole which is not very common. Going into the defensive checks you listed there...

4. Its checks already exist and are viable regardless of Skymin's existence in the meta.
See any mon listed above as offensive checks, and throw in any mon that learns Priority (Genesect, Entei, Weavile, to name a few that are extremely common - side note - they also switch in besides Weavile!)
More common checks:
Blissey, Skarmory, Ho Oh, Magearna, Heatran (unless Epower), Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Aegislash
...alongside the ones listed here. Blissey does take on Skymin handily yes. Skarmory can be put to sleep if it is running Blue Orb or Venusaurite which can prevent a defog or allow another member of your team to sweep if Skarm is all that is stopping it. Max s.def Sablenite Magearna takes 36% to 42% from Earth Power, which while it is not a 2hko it is easliy a 3hko while mag has no viable recovery options outside of Pain Split. Meanwhile if Mag isn't running Ice Beam you sub up, have it take the Fleur Cannon, then you can fire off an Earth Power since you will only take 33% to 39%. If you don't have the health to take on mag you can always switch to the ever present Primal Groudon which takes nothing from Fleur Cannon while giving you a chance to set up Stealth Rock. I haven't seen a single Ho Oh in months, outside of that it's a good stop to Skymin but it is 4x weak to rocks while it also can be slept and forced into locking itself into Sleep Talk or just be kept asleep if it doesn't have sleep talk which some Life Orb or Leftovers sets forsake. Heatran gets rocked by Earth Power. Zapdos takes 25 min from Seed Flare, which when combined with Stealth Rock damage and a s.def drop it will result in a 2hko and the loss of your defogger. Mandibuzz is far less common and while it getting 2hkod by Seed Flare after rocks and a s.def drop does depend on higher rolls, Shaymin can increase the chances for s.def drops by subbing up which can only be prevented by Foul Play which is a risky play for the Mandibuzz to make. Unless s.def Toxapex is the new wave it has an 87% chance to be 2hkod by Earth Power, meanwhile Shay subs up and Toxapex can't break the sub. S.def Aegislash takes 42% to 50% from Earth Power and doesn't do enough damage with Gyro Ball to break a sub while also not having a recovery option outside of King's Shield lefties recovery which is risky due to sub. Out of all of those defensive checks that you listed there are only 2 that can take on Shay even with a S.def drop and 4 if there are no defense drops or rocks. I don't like those numbers.

One other bit before I move on...

3. It doesn't OHKO stuff!!!!!!
Big one here. Skymin just doesnt OHKO a lot since MnM is really bulky and Seed Flare has shit typing and Air Slash has low power. Zygarde, Pdon, blah blah I could go on forever it just doesnt ohko a lot, and it is ohkod by pretty much everything.
Yes sleep is why Skymin is scary, I get that. But Sleep Clause exists, and Sablenite is on sooo prevalent in this meta its honestly not that scary. I hate to be that "just play better" guy, but, just play better.
Skymin does not need to OHKO it's checks to succeed as I showed above and simply because it has sleep/sub to increase its longevity for however long it needs to break down said check. In reference to the bit about sleep clause, you will have to sack a mon to sleep or play with the chance that the Shay user will predict your switch into a magic bounce user in order to not be put to sleep. Basically you have to either put yourself down a mon or are forced into a specific check that can be taken advantage of since most defensive magic bouncers are very passive. Now before you mention Gengar and why he isn't being suspected. Gengar is a lot slower than Skymin and the majority of the premier fast offensive threats in the tier such as Weavile, Kartana and Tapu Koko. Because of this Gengar has a tough time versus offense while having more trouble than Skymin breaking its checks due to a lower bp STAB and only having a 10% chance to lower s.def by just one stage or to normal poison not badly. Gengar just flat out pales in comparison to Shaymin-Sky. All in all dealing with sleep vs a powerhouse like shay is no fun at all.
P .s. Zygarde-Complete can't break sub and full s.def pdon is 2hkod by Skymin I don't know why you brought either of them up.

Going onto the offensive checks bit that you mentioned here...

2. Fast, but not that fast - Skymin has a horrible matchup against offense
Any mon with 108 base speed and Absolite or Metagrossite outspeeds Skymin and can likely OHKO since Skymin is frail for this metagame. Notably we have Kartana, Koko, Latios, Archeops, Gengar, Greninja, Keldeo, Noivern, Terrakion, Thundurus.
This would not be that much of an issue if it wasn't for Skymin's huge weakness to -Atespeed. Between speed and priority and an often inability to get a pure OHKO, Skymin is actually a poor option against offense. It is best suited against bulkier teams, but tbh is not as good as things like Hoopa.

4. Its checks already exist and are viable regardless of Skymin's existence in the meta.
See any mon listed above as offensive checks, and throw in any mon that learns Priority (Genesect, Entei, Weavile, to name a few that are extremely common - side note - they also switch in besides Weavile!)
More common checks:
Blissey, Skarmory, Ho Oh, Magearna, Heatran (unless Epower), Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Aegislash
Kartana cannot OHKO Shay but doesn't die to Earth Power so I guess it comes out on top but that's if you don't get slept/get a 1 turn wake. Yeah Koko wins vs Shay but Lucarionite Thunderbolt is a roll to OHKO and Absolite can't at all. Who uses Latios? Heck is Absolite Latios even viable? Shay shouldn't be fearing a Metagrossite Edge from Archeops, it should be fearing a Pinsirite Quick attack. Absolite Gengar is bad and you should feel bad. No one uses Greninja, Absolite Greninja isn't viable and Pidgeotite Gren is outsped. Absolite Keldeo is outclassed by Lucarionite and Pidgeotite. Absolite Noivern is also bad and you should feel even worse for not using Aerilate Boomburst. Non Absolite Noivern can be put to sleep but does wall Skymin. Metagrossite Terrakion faces competition from Lucarionite since the power difference in Stone Edge is big while Lucarionite is also outsped. H*ck you for even suggesting Absolite Thundurus. That set is unbelievably trash while Pidgeotite is outsped, can be put to sleep and then chunked away by Seed Flare which does 46 min. Really Shaymin does quite well vs offense, only really losing hard to atespeed which can be combated in some form if a sub is up (I.e. Seed Flare vs Weavile or Sleep vs Genesect/Zygarde) which I do admit doesn't happen often but is still possible.

Looking back at Shaymin-Sky in reality it actually has a really good matchup versus a lot of offense and defense due to its combination of a speed stat of 147 post mega. Along with a high base s.atk stat of 185 combined with a 120bp STAB that has a 40% chance to drop s.def by two stages while being complimented by fantastic coverage and utility in Earth Power and Substitute. Those things combined with a minimal drawback sleep move that can basically force your opponent into playing with 5 mons or losing a defensive answer due to stacked, unrecoverable damage due to sleep damage.

I implore all future voters to vote BAN on the Shaymin-Sky suspect or if you have already voted and feel convinced, to change your vote.
 
Last edited:

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
#30
Why you should get reqs & vote (or change your vote) Do Not Ban on Skymin

I'll be getting reqs and voting soon enough but I'm hoping to try to show why I think Skymin has gotten an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction that has people calling for a ban which I see as unnecessary.

1. Its typing sucks, leaving it with more checks and vulnerable to priority
Grass & flying is very no bueno, leaving Skymin hopeless against the many Steel Types in MnM. And before everyone starts yelling "but Lax, Earth Power!" Earth Power isn't even the best 4th move, Substitute is, good job hitting Skarmory, Magearna still isn't 2HKOd, etc. I'll get into more specific checks later, but sticking to typing just be wary of the fact that it does not hit any of the special defensive walls in the meta (Blissey, Ho Oh, Toxapex etc) super effectively, and it has a bad matchup in general. The only reason I advocated for a Skymin ban in AAA was because Tinted Lens exists.

2. Fast, but not that fast - Skymin has a horrible matchup against offense
Any mon with 108 base speed and Absolite or Metagrossite outspeeds Skymin and can likely OHKO since Skymin is frail for this metagame. Notably we have Kartana, Koko, Latios, Archeops, Gengar, Greninja, Keldeo, Noivern, Terrakion, Thundurus.
This would not be that much of an issue if it wasn't for Skymin's huge weakness to -Atespeed. Between speed and priority and an often inability to get a pure OHKO, Skymin is actually a poor option against offense. It is best suited against bulkier teams, but tbh is not as good as things like Hoopa.

3. It doesn't OHKO stuff!!!!!!
Big one here. Skymin just doesnt OHKO a lot since MnM is really bulky and Seed Flare has shit typing and Air Slash has low power. Zygarde, Pdon, blah blah I could go on forever it just doesnt ohko a lot, and it is ohkod by pretty much everything.
Yes sleep is why Skymin is scary, I get that. But Sleep Clause exists, and Sablenite is on sooo prevalent in this meta its honestly not that scary. I hate to be that "just play better" guy, but, just play better.

4. Its checks already exist and are viable regardless of Skymin's existence in the meta.
See any mon listed above as offensive checks, and throw in any mon that learns Priority (Genesect, Entei, Weavile, to name a few that are extremely common - side note - they also switch in besides Weavile!)
More common checks:
Blissey, Skarmory, Ho Oh, Magearna, Heatran (unless Epower), Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Aegislash

Don't get bamboozled, vote Do Not Banoozle.
Wait... people run Air Slash? Why? What does it do? I thought the best set was Seed Flare/ Grasswhistle/Earth Power/Substitute (thank you for mentioning sub tho people in the room seemed to think I was crazy when I brought it up there).

Lessee some damage comparisons...

(when we getting updated usage stats so I can look at what people are actually using instead of what they were using 3 months ago smh)
252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 123-145 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 99-117 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
and in return...
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-Sky: 265-313 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Both Skymin lose unless they can sleep Ferro, and I'm not sure why someone would keep their sleep fodder in. So yes; Air Slash technically helps, but practically it doesn't do much.


252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 274-324 (105.7 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 219-258 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and in return...
252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-Sky: 238-282 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

So running Earth Power over Air Slash only matters for Kartana if: Kartana is already Mega'd or already in, it doesn't switch into Grasswhistle, and it has perfect health.


252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golisopod: 237-279 (66.9 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golisopod: 296-350 (83.6 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

guaranteed 2HKO either way, OHKO after sr.


Mons I'm not even going to bother calcing cuz I know Air Slash is better:
Pinsirite Genesect, Volcarona, Sablenite Buzzwole, Heracross

Mons I'm not even going to bother calcing because I'm lazy and really should I know Earth Power is better:
Heatran, Magearna, Sceptilite Jirachi, basically every steel type ever that isn't part flying.... which looking at it isn't actually that many of them lol (Skarm, Celesteela, Pinsirite Cobalion, basically everything that pretends to be Cobalion like Klinklang), most fire types (Ho-oh tanks air slashes like a boss without Stealth Rock, but this includes Red Orb Raikou, Red Orb Togekiss, Chandelure... other red orb users not Bug or Grass type, or Water or Ground cuz then Seed Flare does just as much.)

Um I sorta lost the thread of this... What I'm essentially trying to say is that Air Slash should be treated as another, more neutrally powerful thanks to STAB, coverage option compared to Earth Power, but not as a necessity.

I'd argue the best set is... Seed Flare / Grasswhistle (mandatory slots, I don't think anyone will disagree) / Earth Power / Substitute
Air Slash probably would fit best over Earth Power.
Also is subseed still a thing? Also fits best over Earth Power.

Anyway this was all responding to 1 I'll just briefly hit the other points.

2. Skymin is one of the fastest things in the meta...
Kartana, Koko, Latios, Archeops, Gengar, Greninja, Keldeo, Noivern, Terrakion, Thundurus.
Kartana is 100% relevant, but fails to deliver a OHKO and gets slept or OHKO'd by Air Slash.
yeah koko, latios...
Arcehops is rather uncommon and Metagrossite / Absolite aren't even the most common stones on it (as per our extremely out of date usage stats and personal experience). Pinsirite Quick Attack can revenge I guess?
Nobody runs Absolite Gengar. It's Pidgeotite or Gengarite. Or... 61% Alakazite? Wtf usage stats. I'ma ignore that one, unless someone has a reason (it's still outsped by Skymin).
I honestly never see anyone run greninja.
I never see Absolite Keldeo, or Noivern.
Terrakion is legit, as I think is Thundy.

Also it still has the problem where none of these mons can switch in. I know we're talking about offense, but imo you CAN'T ignore that 40% drop Seed Flare has, which is the main reason its banned from standard so glossing over its matchup versus defensive styles is rather devaluing it. The vast majority of offensive teams can't out-speed it (note: I'm talking about individual teams here, so most teams have most members out-sped rather than most teams are completely out-sped), so early game it can provide sleep support and break switch-ins, and once you have determined and eliminated those switchins you can clean without worrying about being out-sped.

3 It doesn't OHKO everything, but it 2HKOs basically everything, and, as I've said, most of its switch-ins are pretty much invalidated either by sub being up (a lot of its offensive checks, such as Pinsirite Genesect) or by SpD drops from Seed Flare. I'm not even sure why this point is here tbh... we normally look for 2hkos not ohkos, unless you want to be restricted to revenge killing Skymin. With so many Sablenite users (as you pointed out) it's not exactly hard to keep rocks off the field either if you're not like me and rocks their bouncers ;-;

4
252 SpA Shaymin-Sky Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 115-136 (37.8 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO thats a 2hko at -2... if I was a Skymin I'd set up a sub and spam Seed Flare
lol Aegislash
Heatran is destroyed by Earth Power, and I would personally never assume a lack of Earth Power. If Heatran if your Skymin check your team loses to Earth power Skymin.
Skarm would rather run Blue Orb than Sablenite I think, but otherwise seems good.The rest seems good, although as has been pointed out Magearna switches in once to Earth Power Skymin, and after that just dies.

Finally
Also... you either have to outplay you opponent and get a fodder mon slept (which I haven't found that hard tbh but maybe Skymin users should get gud :toast:), have a mon that doesn't care about Grasswhistle (preferably premega, so something like Sleep Talk) or have 2 Skymin checks on your team because your Skymin check could easily get slept and swept. I really dislike using "sleep clause" as an argument here when it requires a very narrow type of counter to be used or you to dedicate 2 whole slots on your team to beating Skymin.

Ok I've been double ninja'd now (smh Zephyr Dragon Lord and M'joe'ra so I'm just gonna post this. I should probably say I was also antiban until I started running into SubSkymin, and I realized how much trouble they give offense especially when your team has been worn down a little. Your former checks become dead meat when they have less than half health left, no recovery, and Shaymin is behind a sub. ("Don't let your checks get worn down" I'm sorry I was using them to repeatedly check Shaymin :X)

I hate having to prepare for Dual Stabs, Grasswhistle, Earth Power, Sub, and the rare Leech Seed. Together they invalidate so many of Skymin's checks I personally find Skymin very bannable.
 
#31
Why you should get reqs & vote (or change your vote) Do Not Ban on Skymin

I'll be getting reqs and voting soon enough but I'm hoping to try to show why I think Skymin has gotten an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction that has people calling for a ban which I see as unnecessary.

1. Its typing sucks, leaving it with more checks and vulnerable to priority
Grass & flying is very no bueno, leaving Skymin hopeless against the many Steel Types in MnM. And before everyone starts yelling "but Lax, Earth Power!" Earth Power isn't even the best 4th move, Substitute is, good job hitting Skarmory, Magearna still isn't 2HKOd, etc. I'll get into more specific checks later, but sticking to typing just be wary of the fact that it does not hit any of the special defensive walls in the meta (Blissey, Ho Oh, Toxapex etc) super effectively, and it has a bad matchup in general. The only reason I advocated for a Skymin ban in AAA was because Tinted Lens exists.

2. Fast, but not that fast - Skymin has a horrible matchup against offense
Any mon with 108 base speed and Absolite or Metagrossite outspeeds Skymin and can likely OHKO since Skymin is frail for this metagame. Notably we have Kartana, Koko, Latios, Archeops, Gengar, Greninja, Keldeo, Noivern, Terrakion, Thundurus.
This would not be that much of an issue if it wasn't for Skymin's huge weakness to -Atespeed. Between speed and priority and an often inability to get a pure OHKO, Skymin is actually a poor option against offense. It is best suited against bulkier teams, but tbh is not as good as things like Hoopa.

3. It doesn't OHKO stuff!!!!!!
Big one here. Skymin just doesnt OHKO a lot since MnM is really bulky and Seed Flare has shit typing and Air Slash has low power. Zygarde, Pdon, blah blah I could go on forever it just doesnt ohko a lot, and it is ohkod by pretty much everything.
Yes sleep is why Skymin is scary, I get that. But Sleep Clause exists, and Sablenite is on sooo prevalent in this meta its honestly not that scary. I hate to be that "just play better" guy, but, just play better.

4. Its checks already exist and are viable regardless of Skymin's existence in the meta.
See any mon listed above as offensive checks, and throw in any mon that learns Priority (Genesect, Entei, Weavile, to name a few that are extremely common - side note - they also switch in besides Weavile!)
More common checks:
Blissey, Skarmory, Ho Oh, Magearna, Heatran (unless Epower), Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Aegislash

Don't get bamboozled, vote Do Not Banoozle.
While your points make sense, and I am neither good nor enthusiased MNM player who is experiencing a living hell to get reqs, I disagree.

First I think you missed on why Skymin made MNM council consider a suspect (or quickban). It is NOT because it cant one-shot everything; it is the fastest sleep-er (sorry for my bed england) in the tier that can shut down almost everything that is slower. Also while it not may OHKO stuff, it can turn multi-hit-KOes into 2HKO or 3HKO thanks to Seed Flare that is haxy af. Yes, -2 SpDef is hax-reliant but 40% is never a neglectable chance in a world where so-called-chance of missing Focus Blast by 30% happens as often as breathing. This sometimes lets Skymin break through Grass-resistant walls like Mandibuzz.

Second, it forces most players to Mega Evo something with Absolite or Sablenite very early in the game. In my case, my stupid Trick Room team always has to lead with Sablenite Magearna because if I don't, and if Skymin gets in, somebody HAS to go to sleep, and the consequence is loss of momentum and the risk of next switch in having its sp def halved or Skymin setting a sub.

Third is because of the fact that Pidgeotite Skymin has alerted me who is an MNM noob who knows next to no concepts of the meta. Skymin was broken since Pidgeotite release, and if a noob like me notices the brokenness (sorry for second bed england), that means Skymin's dominant force in the meta is clearly visible to all players of the metagame no matter how they arre experienced.

I spoke my thoughts and as an inexperienced player. But I'm glad I got to see some logical explanation that is against the ban. However, I will conclude this post by saying 'screw you' because your disagreement on ban has triggered me to exceed my 10M data plan on my flip phone and pay 15$ to make this post.
 

MacChaeger

i'm gonna pyuk
is a Pre-Contributor
#32
Why you should get reqs & vote (or change your vote) Do Not Ban on Skymin

I'll be getting reqs and voting soon enough but I'm hoping to try to show why I think Skymin has gotten an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction that has people calling for a ban which I see as unnecessary.

1. Its typing sucks, leaving it with more checks and vulnerable to priority
Grass & flying is very no bueno, leaving Skymin hopeless against the many Steel Types in MnM. And before everyone starts yelling "but Lax, Earth Power!" Earth Power isn't even the best 4th move, Substitute is, good job hitting Skarmory, Magearna still isn't 2HKOd, etc. I'll get into more specific checks later, but sticking to typing just be wary of the fact that it does not hit any of the special defensive walls in the meta (Blissey, Ho Oh, Toxapex etc) super effectively, and it has a bad matchup in general. The only reason I advocated for a Skymin ban in AAA was because Tinted Lens exists.

2. Fast, but not that fast - Skymin has a horrible matchup against offense
Any mon with 108 base speed and Absolite or Metagrossite outspeeds Skymin and can likely OHKO since Skymin is frail for this metagame. Notably we have Kartana, Koko, Latios, Archeops, Gengar, Greninja, Keldeo, Noivern, Terrakion, Thundurus.
This would not be that much of an issue if it wasn't for Skymin's huge weakness to -Atespeed. Between speed and priority and an often inability to get a pure OHKO, Skymin is actually a poor option against offense. It is best suited against bulkier teams, but tbh is not as good as things like Hoopa.

3. It doesn't OHKO stuff!!!!!!
Big one here. Skymin just doesnt OHKO a lot since MnM is really bulky and Seed Flare has shit typing and Air Slash has low power. Zygarde, Pdon, blah blah I could go on forever it just doesnt ohko a lot, and it is ohkod by pretty much everything.
Yes sleep is why Skymin is scary, I get that. But Sleep Clause exists, and Sablenite is on sooo prevalent in this meta its honestly not that scary. I hate to be that "just play better" guy, but, just play better.

4. Its checks already exist and are viable regardless of Skymin's existence in the meta.
See any mon listed above as offensive checks, and throw in any mon that learns Priority (Genesect, Entei, Weavile, to name a few that are extremely common - side note - they also switch in besides Weavile!)
More common checks:
Blissey, Skarmory, Ho Oh, Magearna, Heatran (unless Epower), Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Aegislash

Don't get bamboozled, vote Do Not Banoozle.
I have some problems with this post.



Shaymin-Sky's typing is not fantastic as you have mentioned, but what makes it so potent is it's main STAB in Seed Flare combined with Earth Power coverage. Before you question why you should be running Earth Power I would ask why you should be running Air Slash in the first place? It is far weaker and doesn't have nearly the utility of Seed Flare while also not hitting anything hard that Seed Flare can't. The set that has done the most work and performed the best in my experience is Grass Whistle, Seed Flare, Earth Power, Substitue. The idea behind this set is to maximize the amount of chances you can get to hit the opponent with a Seed Flare thus giving you a 40% chance to double your damage output as long as they stay in, Air Slash really has no place on Skymin outside of hitting other Shaymin-Sky which you shouldn't be risking, atespeed mons such as zygarde or genesect or Buzzwole which is not very common. Going into the defensive checks you listed there...



...alongside the ones listed here. Blissey does take on Skymin handily yes. Skarmory can be put to sleep if it is running Blue Orb or Venusaurite which can prevent a defog or allow another member of your team to sweep if Skarm is all that is stopping it. Max s.def Sablenite Magearna takes 36% to 42% from Earth Power, which while it is not a 2hko it is easliy a 3hko while mag has no viable recovery options outside of Pain Split. Meanwhile if Mag isn't running Ice Beam you sub up, have it take the Fleur Cannon, then you can fire off an Earth Power since you will only take 33% to 39%. If you don't have the health to take on mag you can always switch to the ever present Primal Groudon which takes nothing from Fleur Cannon while giving you a chance to set up Stealth Rock. I haven't seen a single Ho Oh in months, outside of that it's a good stop to Skymin but it is 4x weak to rocks while it also can be slept and forced into locking itself into Sleep Talk or just be kept asleep if it doesn't have sleep talk which some Life Orb or Leftovers sets forsake. Heatran gets rocked by Earth Power. Zapdos takes 25 min from Seed Flare, which when combined with Stealth Rock damage and a s.def drop it will result in a 2hko and the loss of your defogger. Mandibuzz is far less common and while it getting 2hkod by Seed Flare after rocks and a s.def drop does depend on higher rolls, Shaymin can increase the chances for s.def drops by subbing up which can only be prevented by Foul Play which is a risky play for the Mandibuzz to make. Unless s.def Toxapex is the new wave it has an 87% chance to be 2hkod by Earth Power, meanwhile Shay subs up and Toxapex can't break the sub. S.def Aegislash takes 42% to 50% from Earth Power and doesn't do enough damage with Gyro Ball to break a sub while also not having a recovery option outside of King's Shield lefties recovery which is risky due to sub. Out of all of those defensive checks that you listed there are only 2 that can take on Shay even with a S.def drop and 4 if there are no defense drops or rocks. I don't like those numbers.

One other bit before I move on...



Skymin does not need to OHKO it's checks to succeed as I showed above and simply because it has sleep/sub to increase its longevity for however long it needs to break down said check. In reference to the bit about sleep clause, you will have to sack a mon to sleep or play with the chance that the Shay user will predict your switch into a magic bounce user in order to not be put to sleep. Basically you have to either put yourself down a mon or are forced into a specific check that can be taken advantage of since most defensive magic bouncers are very passive. Now before you mention Gengar and why he isn't being suspected. Gengar is a lot slower than Skymin and the majority of the premier fast offensive threats in the tier such as Weavile, Kartana and Tapu Koko. Because of this Gengar has a tough time versus offense while having more trouble than Skymin breaking its checks due to a lower bp STAB and only having a 10% chance to lower s.def by just one stage or to normal poison not badly. Gengar just flat out pales in comparison to Shaymin-Sky. All in all dealing with sleep vs a powerhouse like shay is no fun at all.
P .s. Zygarde-Complete can't break sub and full s.def pdon is 2hkod by Skymin I don't know why you brought either of them up.

Going onto the offensive checks bit that you mentioned here...



Kartana cannot OHKO Shay but doesn't die to Earth Power so I guess it comes out on top but that's if you don't get slept/get a 1 turn wake. Yeah Koko wins vs Shay but Lucarionite Thunderbolt is a roll to OHKO and Absolite can't at all. Who uses Latios? Heck is Absolite Latios even viable? Shay shouldn't be fearing a Metagrossite Edge from Archeops, it should be fearing a Pinsirite Quick attack. Absolite Gengar is bad and you should feel bad. No one uses Greninja, Absolite Greninja isn't viable and Pidgeotite Gren is outsped. Absolite Keldeo is outclassed by Lucarionite and Pidgeotite. Absolite Noivern is also bad and you should feel even worse for not using Aerilate Boomburst. Non Absolite Noivern can be put to sleep but does wall Skymin. Metagrossite Terrakion faces competition from Lucarionite since the power difference in Stone Edge is big while Lucarionite is also outsped. H*ck you for even suggesting Absolite Thundurus. That set is unbelievably trash while Pidgeotite is outsped, can be put to sleep and then chunked away by Seed Flare which does 46 min. Really Shaymin does quite well vs offense, only really losing hard to atespeed which can be combated in some form if a sub is up (I.e. Seed Flare vs Weavile or Sleep vs Genesect/Zygarde) which I do admit doesn't happen often but is still possible.

Looking back at Shaymin-Sky in reality it actually has a really good matchup versus a lot of offense and defense due to its combination of a speed stat of 147 post mega. Along with a high base s.atk stat of 185 combined with a 120bp STAB that has a 40% chance to drop s.def by two stages while being complimented by fantastic coverage and utility in Earth Power and Substitute. Those things combined with a minimal drawback sleep move that can basically force your opponent into playing with 5 mons or losing a defensive answer due to stacked, unrecoverable due to sleep damage.

I implore all future voters to vote BAN on the Shaymin-Sky suspect or if you have already voted and feel convinced, to change your vote.
Isn't the whole point of getting reqs so that people can make their own decision based off experience? This campaigning for whether to vote to ban Shaymin-Sky is no better than campaigning for an OMotM. It's enough to simply explain your own reasoning; it is entirely unnecessary to demand that others vote the same as yourself. As for asking that more people get reqs and vote at all, that's a fine thing to do if and only if you do not actively try to tell them how to vote. If you're worried about people getting reqs without truly understanding Shaymin-Sky's effect on the meta, that's a problem with reqs being too easy, which is an entirely different case to make.
 

Laxpras

Laxpras F baby, the F is for phenomenal
is a Pre-Contributor
#34
Isn't the whole point of getting reqs so that people can make their own decision based off experience? This campaigning for whether to vote to ban Shaymin-Sky is no better than campaigning for an OMotM. It's enough to simply explain your own reasoning; it is entirely unnecessary to demand that others vote the same as yourself. As for asking that more people get reqs and vote at all, that's a fine thing to do if and only if you do not actively try to tell them how to vote. If you're worried about people getting reqs without truly understanding Shaymin-Sky's effect on the meta, that's a problem with reqs being too easy, which is an entirely different case to make.
I mean whenever someone posts their thoughts on something they are doing it in order to to have people see their side of the debate, and thus act accordingly, that's argumentation 101. Calling a post what it is, especially in a lighthearted manner, (do you see the last line, its even bolded!) really doesn't warrant this sort of "holier-than-thou" response and for you to turn a post entitled "Why you should vote x" into what you somehow call a "demand" but ty for the input in the skymin debate
 
Last edited:
#35
Why you should get reqs & vote (or change your vote) Do Not Ban on Skymin

I'll be getting reqs and voting soon enough but I'm hoping to try to show why I think Skymin has gotten an unwarranted knee-jerk reaction that has people calling for a ban which I see as unnecessary.

1. Its typing sucks, leaving it with more checks and vulnerable to priority
Grass & flying is very no bueno, leaving Skymin hopeless against the many Steel Types in MnM. And before everyone starts yelling "but Lax, Earth Power!" Earth Power isn't even the best 4th move, Substitute is, good job hitting Skarmory, Magearna still isn't 2HKOd, etc. I'll get into more specific checks later, but sticking to typing just be wary of the fact that it does not hit any of the special defensive walls in the meta (Blissey, Ho Oh, Toxapex etc) super effectively, and it has a bad matchup in general. The only reason I advocated for a Skymin ban in AAA was because Tinted Lens exists.

2. Fast, but not that fast - Skymin has a horrible matchup against offense
Any mon with 108 base speed and Absolite or Metagrossite outspeeds Skymin and can likely OHKO since Skymin is frail for this metagame. Notably we have Kartana, Koko, Latios, Archeops, Gengar, Greninja, Keldeo, Noivern, Terrakion, Thundurus.
This would not be that much of an issue if it wasn't for Skymin's huge weakness to -Atespeed. Between speed and priority and an often inability to get a pure OHKO, Skymin is actually a poor option against offense. It is best suited against bulkier teams, but tbh is not as good as things like Hoopa.

3. It doesn't OHKO stuff!!!!!!
Big one here. Skymin just doesnt OHKO a lot since MnM is really bulky and Seed Flare has shit typing and Air Slash has low power. Zygarde, Pdon, blah blah I could go on forever it just doesnt ohko a lot, and it is ohkod by pretty much everything.
Yes sleep is why Skymin is scary, I get that. But Sleep Clause exists, and Sablenite is on sooo prevalent in this meta its honestly not that scary. I hate to be that "just play better" guy, but, just play better.

4. Its checks already exist and are viable regardless of Skymin's existence in the meta.
See any mon listed above as offensive checks, and throw in any mon that learns Priority (Genesect, Entei, Weavile, to name a few that are extremely common - side note - they also switch in besides Weavile!)
More common checks:
Blissey, Skarmory, Ho Oh, Magearna, Heatran (unless Epower), Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Toxapex, Aegislash

Don't get bamboozled, vote Do Not Banoozle.
Would just like to address point 2 really quick as a couple of those mons can't actually OHKO skymin:
252 Atk Tough Claws Kartana Smart Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Shaymin-Sky: 238-282 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Air Slash OHKOs back)
252 SpA Absolite Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin-Sky: 126-148 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Keldeo only wins if Absolite Icy Wind, which is inferior to SubCM, and even then Absolite is inferior to Pidgeotite on Keldeo imo)
Also Latios is a roll to OHKO with Draco (and it's heavily in Skymin's favour as it's only an 18.8% chance)
And who the fuck uses Absolite Noivern like it needs Pinsirite/Salamencite, or at least Pidgeotite so it just gets sleeped and Air Slashed.

185 special attack with perfectly accurate and powerful STABs with high chances for special effect and 147 speed is amazing, and when combined with perfectly accurate sleep, despite the prevalence of Sablenite, Skymin is still outrageously powerful. If it gets a drop with Seed Flare on a switchin, just about everything gets KOed bar Blissey. Not much can outspeed it as it bypasses the 140ish benchmark that is the threshold for pretty fast stuff (e.g. stuff like Mimikyu, Manaphy, Noivern, other Absolite/Metagrossite 100s, etc.), and every team should have stuff for -ates and stuff like Kartana/Tapu Koko/Terrakion etc. anyway. The threat of sleep makes you have to get your Sablenite mon megad early and puts the prediction pressure heavily on the opponent as if one of their key mons gets put to sleep then Skymin or teammates can blow through teams. Running a solid defensive backbone alongside Skymin (take your pick of defensive pivots such as Magearna, Zapdos, Scizor, PDon, Blissey, Arceus formes, Skarmory, etc., special s/o to first 3 for having pivot moves to get Skymin in safely) is basically required and can gain momentum via pivoting while forcing out checks and bringing Skymin in to wreak more havoc. It requires multiple checks per team and it is incredibly easy to wear down checks (Magearna lacks recovery, Terrakion breaks Zapdos/Blissey, and stuff like Arceus/Blissey/Zapdos can easily take on faster checks+-ates). Sure Grass isn't the best offensive typing but that doesn't matter because now it's hitting twice as hard bcz of that SpD drop (and Seed Flare/Air Slash/Earth Power hits most things neutrally or better).

Also EP is super effective on Toxapex doing 37.5-44 which forces Tox to recover a lot and stops it from switching in reliably (only takes a little chip + rocks). Also it's not like Tox is beating Sub Skymin anyway.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
#38
Let's talk skymin
Sure, it is strong and has annoying af sleep moves. But stall and balance are not bothered one bit by it, as zapdos, blissey, and magearna all handle it if sablenite, and even other mons can handle it if sablenite.
Offense vs skymin: Skymin is 147 base speed. Sounds fast, but there are many things faster. Metagrossite kartana, terrakion, koko sets, etc. Priority shafts it because the ate types are super effective, such as weavile, zygarde, even entei, etc. And skymin is frail as hell! So yes, if it gets a free switch on groudon or something, if you don't have zapdos, blissey magearna, then it can be a problem, but that's a bad team build tbh. Personally, id love to see a suspect against/rule stopping double sablenite, and a ban on zap cannon and dynamic punch (my friend was laddering up with that, and its some cancer)
but anyways NO BAN
 

Attachments

#44
Voting ABSTAIN.
Skymin is a major threat against stall, but not that much against offense.
Even stall has some checks to it like Sablenite Zapdos, Sablenite Blissey or Sleep Talk Ho-Oh, but if they're gone, then Skymin is a big problem for them.

 
Last edited:

drampa's grandpa

formerly The Ruins of Alpha
#46
reqs (finally)

Voting Ban

I've talked about why above but Skymin can invalidate too many of its switch-ins, either through Sleep, Special Defense drops, or having a sub up. It also has a crazy speed tier. I don't think any one of these aspects are broken but taken as a whole I am moved to vote to ban.

Also lol nobody was using Skymin on the ladder except a couple people whos teams... were not the best. I think part of the reason nobody was using it is that Zapdos is very popular and very good right now, and Sablenite Zapdos is one of the best switchins to it.
As a final bonus here's my last match. I thought you guys might enjoy it.

Rayquaza @ Life Orb
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 140 Atk / 116 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor
- Surf

Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Recover

Blissey @ Sablenite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
- Precipice Blades
- Stone Edge

Zapdos @ Sablenite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Roost
- Heat Wave
- Toxic

Terrakion @ Metagrossite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge