M&M Mix and Mega

[The Immortal]

After looking at this more carefully, there's some really big flaws with this reasoning.

For one, the door is already open. Balanced Hackmons, as you admit, is already getting this special treatment, so why should Mix and Mega not? They're admittedly two very similar metagames that consist of mechancs that are not achievable in the real games. As the post above me put in very good words: the ultimate similarity between Balanced Hackmons and Mix and Mega is that they're simply designed for fun and, again, do not follow the mechanics of the real games. It should not have the limitations from the real games as it's not based on the real game itself. This was the reasoning behind BH, so again, what makes Mix and Mega different? You're already giving special treatment to one OM as you said, so that part of the reasoning becomes completely unnecessary and untrue. As for "opening the door to other metagames," I believe that Mix and Mega is already one of the most unique, and unachievable-in-reality metagames that we have (EVEN MORESO than BH) so this would be a fair exception. My firm belief is that OMs should focus on fun rather than having resemblance to any tier (come on now, the point of OMs is to literally be distinguishable from standard tiers already).


I think Mix and Mega will not have any resemblance to any standard tier as long as we allow six mega evolutions per game and allow any stone to be used on any Pokemon, so I do not get this point. It lacks any real resemblance to the real games already, so why should this be a problem? If you really wanted to resemble actual tiers, wouldn't you focus more on limiting the amount of Megas per team?

I'm tagging The Immortal and scpinion to strongly urge them to reconsider this decision. There's no valid reason to limit the enjoyment of a metagame that already is only playable on an online Pokemon simulator and which the whole basis of is unachievable mechanics that do not have any resemblance to standard tiers.

BH isn't getting any special treatment. Its concept is hacked Pokémon. You can hack unreleased data. Mix and Mega's concept is Mega Stones working on all Pokémon; everything else remains unchanged.

I've already said this before but don't use this thread to argue the matter. Feel free to urge us outside of this thread.

 

[AncientBeing]

The fundamental principle of Mix and Mega is that if your Pokémon carries a mega stone, it can gain the boosts from that stone, regardless of how many other megas you have. That's it, and every other change is for balance, such as banning Ubers from mega evolving or limiting stones to two of each type. Simply put, if your Zygarde can't carry an altarianite, it cant get those.

So basically, even though we're playing a "for fun" tier that has no ties to basic gameplay, we're currently being limited by a 3DS app in this version and being locked out of the version of the game that wasn't? Is that how I'm understanding this?

 

[Haaku.]

While I also feel like Mix and Mega would be better off with all stones, BH is not getting special treatment; only really AAA is, and Lucas's has given solid reasons why. The fundamental principle of Mix and Mega is that if your Pokémon carries a mega stone, it can gain the boosts from that stone, regardless of how many other megas you have. That's it, and every other change is for balance, such as banning Ubers from mega evolving or limiting stones to two of each type. Simply put, if your Zygarde can't carry an altarianite, it cant get those. Balanced hackmons, meanwhile, allows you to hack things in. Thus, anything that can be obtained by hacking (such as unreleased Pokémon) is allowed.

I don't play AAA to know if it's something worth talking about, but people who play it should explain how it's an exception and why it's important when arguing for MnM having unreleased stones.

Quantum Tesseract, what I meant to say was that Balanced Hackmons is already something you can do in the cartridge, which is a good defense for it not getting special treatment, but MnM does not work with this. It already introduces mechancs simply impossible in the main cartridge. Maybe your Zygarde can't hold an Altarianite in the Sun and Moon games, but how is this any different from Mega Evolving my Dragonite into Mega Dragonite using a Pinsirite and proceed to use Flying type Extreme Speeds? It's obviously not, and the similarity is that neither are possible in the main games. For this reason, it's clear that unreleased stones should be allowed in metagames that use impossible mechanics. I believe the games are also hard coded to not allow you to mega evolve more than one Pokemon per battle. If you want resemblance to real tiers, you'd have to strip what makes an OM an OM and this is exactly why it's wrong

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

So basically, even though we're playing a "for fun" tier that has no ties to basic gameplay, we're currently being limited by a 3DS app in this version and being locked out of the version of the game that wasn't? Is that how I'm understanding this?

Yes. Because this is a Pokémon metagame, we are limited by the Pokémon games.

I don't play AAA to know if it's something worth talking about, but people who play it should explain how it's an exception and why it's important when arguing for MnM having unreleased stones.

Quantum Tesseract, what I meant to say was that Balanced Hackmons is already something you can do in the cartridge, which is a good defense for it not getting special treatment, but MnM does not work with this. It already introduces mechancs simply impossible in the main cartridge. Maybe your Zygarde can't hold an Altarianite in the Sun and Moon games, but how is this any different from Mega Evolving my Dragonite into Mega Dragonite using a Pinsirite and proceed to use Flying type Extreme Speeds? It's obviously not, and the similarity is that neither are possible in the main games. For this reason, it's clear that unreleased stones should be allowed in metagames that use impossible mechanics. I believe the games are also hard coded to not allow you to mega evolve more than one Pokemon per battle. If you want resemblance to real tiers, you'd have to strip what makes an OM an OM and this is exactly why it's wrong

The problem isn't with unreleased stones being too far for an OM, it's that that isn't Mix and Mega's gimmick. That would be an entirely seperate metagame, and adding that would (to my understanding) push Mix and Mega closer to pet mod status.

Either way, though, this is not the place. Arguing here will not make it more likely that Mix and Mega has stones released. If you have something to say, PM or VM either The Immortal (if you have further arguments) or me if you disagree with what I say, but don't clutter the thread for no reason.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Hey,

Any discussion regarding the decision to not allow unreleased stones should be between the council and the OM leaders, not in here. I know that you would like to use the unreleased stones, 96% of you want them to be released in Mix and Mega - I get it. This isn't the place to argue that though...

I'm going to blacklist posts asking/arguing in favour of allowing the unreleased stones for a month now, tagging The Immortal, imas and scpinion so they know.

So this isn't just me being a buzzkill, how's Regigigas doing right now? I've heard a lot of cries for a Dragonite banned but I haven't struggled with it at all. Is it really that bad? I'm personally loving Mega Salamence, without -Pixispeed it's really difficult to revenge kill bar Weavile.

 

[thdhted]

Honestly, I think it's a problem, but a very, small one. It hits really hard and has awesome coverage, but that's about it. It suffers most from being a normal type, AND its lack of usable moves that aren't damaging(it can't learn Rest for crying out loud!). We've got bigger fish to fry. That said, Regigigas is ridiculously bulky for how powerful it is, and it isn't very fun to play around without something extremely bulky that can reliably take hits from it. I'd say a suspect is in order for it, but maybe not yet.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

...I don't think Regigigas is just a small problem. It's got a huge body, for one.
It's also pretty much guaranteed to work against the enemy team in some way, barring Pheromosa or the Musketeers do something about it.

Though there is Kyruem-Black, and that's the only other bigger fish that I can think of.

 

[Inferno Gaming]

I find Cresselia a bigger threat than Regigigas, but that's just me talking.

 

[AncientBeing]

I just had a random thought. Is it possible, that you can send Ash-Greninja can Mega Evolve in Mix and Mega?

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

...We have non-broken wallbreakers, for crying out loud. We ARE in an unbalanced state right now. Also, I return with some analyses.

Heatran: *sigh* This volcano dweller lost me a room tour finals. Well, partially. The rest was me being somewhat dumb. Not having Levitate is a deal-breaker of one of the highest calibers, and it makes things like Dragonite think twice before using an Earthquake. But now... Primal Groudon runs over it. Dragonite uses it as setup fodder. Regigigas OHKOs it. It's just bad news all over for it. At least it has power and an otherwise nice typing, stopping the Tapus, for the most part.

Solgaleo: In a word: underrated. The Z-Splash set easily breaks Blissey and co. apart in an instant, and it even gets recovery. The sun lion also has a great mixed movepool, allowing for a great number of threats to be trounced. And that signature move ignores Mulitscale. Really nice for a 1v1 against Dragonite. Also, that physical bulk is incredible.

Zygarde-Complete: While it might be difficult to activate against hyper-offensive teams, Zygarde has a good alternate form, as well. The bulk is utterly ridiculous, taking around 60% from STAB super effective blows.... in the complete form. ...Which means it'll be OHKOed in the standard form. Do watch out, but it's reliable if you can make the transformation happen.

 

[M'joe'ra]

Just to clarify, Regigigas is not supposed to be a wallbreaker, it doesn't pack the boosting moves necessary to break said walls beyond power up punch or recovery to be able to stay in for extended periods of time beyond rest. Regi is supposed to be a fast and powerful attacker that can take hits better than other offensive attackers. The fact that Regi can hit so hard with its new abilities of tough claws or adaptability or aerilate combined with an attack stat ranging from 170 to 200 or so while having a speed stat between 100 and 140 while also having at least 110 all around bulk is what makes it good. That along with the fact that it gets some pretty good coverage moves in eq, all of the punch moves and knock off if you really want to hit offensive ghostceus is what makes it so good. It is a fast, powerful, and bulky attacking terror, it is not a wallbreaker.

Edit: ayy 100th post

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Wishing you all a happy new year from the Mix and Mega council! Hope 2017 will be full of joy and peace!

Hide

The council is still discussing Regigigas. A quick ban is out of the question at the moment but a suspcet is still an option.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Double post, but it's worth it. Mix and Mega now has a new banner! This one was made by Jackii Thank you!

http://ixjackiexx.deviantart.com/art/Mix-and-Mega-655061105

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

wow that bias towards water

But yeah, that banner is pretty wild. Golisipod seems to taken up the mantle Gyarados left for it.
The banner will fit for the rest of Gen 7's lifespan, considering Keldeo is going to retain its former power sometime in the future...

 

[BoCo365]

I've seen a lot of people using frustration. Is it stronger than return?

 

[Ren]

I've seen a lot of people using frustration. Is it stronger than return?

The reason people use Frustration over Return is due to how Pokemon Showdown defaults happiness. Whenever someone builds a Ditto in teambuilder, it defaults to 255 happiness so it gains max power Return and a Frustration that does almost nothing. Unless the player manually adjusts the happiness, the Ditto will keep the power of Frustration/Return that it is assigned, not the power that the opponent is assigned. Due to Frustration from a default Ditto doing almost nothing, that's generally the preferred option in order to reduce a Ditto's offensive power.

Hope that made sense.

 

[Darth Manaphy]

I've seen a lot of people using frustration. Is it stronger than return?

The default in the simulator is max happiness so if you switch a Ditto into it and you have Return, Ditto has a 102 BP move. If you instead minimize your happiness and use Frustration, when a Ditto switches in, it has a pathetically weak move that it can use while you still have a 102 BP move.

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-510840332

Alright, bp scrub has ascended the meme scale and ended up in heaven with a mono-flying team, featuring 4 Pinsirites.

...Sorry to be a buzzkill, but this should not be possible. Notifying The Immortal to help fix this up.

 

[Haaku.]

With Altarianite gone (for now?), this bad boy now has one less thing to worry about (but still very weak to Pinsirite spam).

@ Sablenite
Ability: Intimidate / Moxie
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Bulk Up
- Fake Out / Ice Punch

Scrafty has a new stat spread of 65/100/165/65/165/28 that it can abuse perfectly with Bulk Up and a semi reliable recovery move in Drain Punch. With fully special bulk investment and intimidate, it can wall both sides of the spectrum beautifully, and serves as a good check to Cresselia lacking Moonblast. It also gets Fake Out to activate the Magic Bounce from Sablenite regardless of anything when you bring it in. It was held back mostly because of Altarianite, but without that, I think this can really shine in this new meta. Not to mention it acts as a check to things like Regigigas, so it's kind of anti meta rn in a way.

 

[happymaverick]

Can somebody please actually implement a rule created in this meta? The thing about Meloetta. It always gets my hopes up whenever I see that part of the "rules" but always get disappointed. At least remove it from the ruleset until it finally gets implemented.

 

[Djqubi]

That banner looks slick! Props to Jackii for creating such a beautiful artwork!

 

[Zephyr Dragon Lord]

Thanks to Quantum Tesseract for bringing me these usage stats for December 2016.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Basic stats for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-1760.txt regular (Basic stats for Cress suspect ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/moveset/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt moves/checksandcounter/ect (Moveset data for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/moveset/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-1760.txt moves/checksandcounter/etc (Moveset data for Cress suspect ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/metagame/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-1760.txt Team Style (Team information for Cress suspect ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/metagame/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt Team style (Team information for main ladder)

Keep in mind that the moveset data is a long read, if you intend to go through all of it. Use ctrl + F if you wish to find something fast. I'll be back when I've tested some of the more interesting findings within...
Also, proof of arceus fire being bad

 

[thdhted]

Thanks to Quantum Tesseract for bringing me these usage stats for December 2016.

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt (Basic stats for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-1760.txt regular (Basic stats for Cress suspect ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/moveset/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt moves/checksandcounter/ect (Moveset data for main ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/moveset/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-1760.txt moves/checksandcounter/etc (Moveset data for Cress suspect ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/metagame/gen7mixandmegasuspecttest-1760.txt Team Style (Team information for Cress suspect ladder)
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-12/metagame/gen7mixandmega-1760.txt Team style (Team information for main ladder)

Keep in mind that the moveset data is a long read, if you intend to go through all of it. Use ctrl + F if you wish to find something fast. I'll be back when I've tested some of the more interesting findings within...
Also, proof of arceus fire being bad

Looking at this makes me wonder how many Cress Suspect participants actually had experience with fighting Cress. I mean seriously, only 6% of teams had one? Really?
Also, a surprising amount of Toxapex. I'd really like to see the 1700 and up stats.

 

[M'joe'ra]

Why is Keldeo on the banner again? Its usage is lower than Incineroar's, Decidueye's and Alolan Exaggutor's Kappa

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Why is Keldeo on the banner again? Its usage is lower than Incineroar's, Decidueye's and Alolan Exaggutor's Kappa

Obviously represents the passing of best water-type between generations. Also I'd just like to say that Metagross has been doing alright for me this gen, particularly with the rise of Dragonite as it is the only big steel-type Pinsirite user (and by that I mean it, Klinklang, and Cobalion) with access to ice coverage in Ice Punch. The Hone Claws set is surprisingly effective and can nab some neat KOs such as 2HKOing maximum physical defense neutral Arceus forms with Return (and Rockceus is weak to Meteor Mash) at +1, 2HKOs PDon at +1 and generally does your standard wallbreaking stuff with the beauty typing that is Steel/Flying.