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Mollux and B/W2: Shaking up the CAP Metagame (A B/W2 CAP Meta Discussion Thread)

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by nyttyn, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Mollux
    [​IMG]
    Typing: Fire / Poison
    Base stats: 95 HP / 45 Atk / 83 Def / 131 SpA / 105 SpD / 76 Spe
    Abilities: Dry Skin / Illuminate (Hidden)
    Movepool: link

    Height: 1.2m / 3' 11.2"
    Weight: 41 kg (90.2) lbs [GK/LK: 60 BP]
    Gender Ratio: 50% Male / 50% Female
    Dex: Mollux, the Mantle Pokémon

    Black: Its innards glow with a vibrant light, the color being determined by its current mood. Its predators take a red light as a warning to leave.
    White: The light it generates helps it traverse the dark depths of the sea. Its soothing glow helps it befriend curious or lost Pokemon.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    BW2 Changes


    All past CAP pokemon (shamelessly stolen from Birkal) (open)

    [​IMG]

    Syclant
    Fast, powerful, mixed sweeper with thin defenses

    [​IMG]

    Revenankh
    Dangerous Bulk Up abuser with unresisted offensive STAB

    [​IMG]

    Pyroak
    Sturdy SubSeeding wall with good attacking prowess

    [​IMG]

    Fidgit
    Fast, defensive Pokemon with a variety of utility moves
    • Final Product
    • Old Analysis
    • Old Movepool
    • Concept: Utility-Support Pokemon
      By aldaron and Magmortified

      Description: There is a serious lack of Gravity, Rapid Spin, Wish, non Dark weak Trick Room, OU viable Heal Bell / Aromatherapy, Encore, Memento, Non Dark weak Perish Song, Psycho Shift, Safeguard, Magic Coat, Me First, Snatch, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Tailwind and Haze Pokemon in our lovely Metagame. I don't know what type, what stat distribution or even what kind of Pokemon would effectively use all those, but I want to build a utility Pokemon for the useful yet less used utility moves. If I had to narrow the field a bit, I would emphasize Tailwind, Gravity, non Dark weak Trick Room, Rapid Spin, Wish and Encore. The normal utility moves like Reflect and Light Screen go without saying.


    [​IMG]

    Stratagem
    Super-fast special attacker with mono-Rock typing
    • Final Product
    • Old Analysis
    • Old Movepool
    • Concept: Break the Mold
      By lationheat

      Description: An OU viable pokemon that goes completely against the stereotypes of its typing.

      Yea so obviously there is some stereotypes associated with each of the types and i have noticed that this is something that has often had a negative effect on past CAP projects.

      You've heard it all before when people were discussing Pyroak, a lot of people insisted it had to be fast and have huge special attack just because it was a fire type. Or when Fidgit's movepool was chosen Stealth Rock had to be on just because every other ground type has it.

      I know there are some pokemon that already exist, that tend to have traits that you wouldn't expect given their typing; Cradily, Altaria and Ampharos come to mind. Despite this it seems the vast majority of these type of pokemon sit firmly in the UU tier, maybe this is the exact reason why, but i think this is an issue we can further discuss and something we can actually test in battle.

      So the challenge with this concept is to take a typing and go completely against the stereotypes often associated with it and make a pokemon that is viable in OU.


    [​IMG]

    Arghonaut
    Physical tank that stops stat-boosters in their tracks
    • Final Product
    • Old Analysis
    • Old Movepool
    • Concept:Decentralizer
      By Hyra

      Description: A Pokemon can check a majority of the current top 5 Pokemon.

      This is basically what Gormenghast wanted to do with Camerupt, but broader. I feel that specifically mentioning Scizor, Zapdos, and Heatran makes the concept too restrictive, but ideally this would be able to take at least two of these Pokemon on (Blissey does this for certain varients of Zapdos and Heatran). Unfortunately, there are very few type combos that do this, which is why I don't want to mention any specific Pokemon in the description.


    [​IMG]

    Kitsunoh
    Fast physical attacker designed to be the ultimate scout
    • Final Product
    • Old Analysis
    • Old Movepool
    • Concept: Ultimate Scout
      By beej

      Description: A Pokemon that is very capable of forcing the opponent to reveal vital information about their team members and their moves using various techniques.

      Scouting is an increasingly important role in the Platinum metagame. Moves like U-Turn, Substitute and Protect are highly valued for their ability to give us such vital information as what kind of responses do your opponents have to your sweepers, what hidden moves do they have, and so forth. Getting this information early on allows you to prepare yourself for any threats your opponent has waiting in the wings and come up with a game plan. This Pokemon would probably need resistances to common attacking types, particularly ones backed up by Choice items, as those allow for the best opportunity to U-Turn and reveal a counter. It wouldn't have to have amazing offenses, but enough to scare the opponent into making some revealing switches.


    [​IMG]

    Cyclohm
    Unusual dragon with physical defense and special offense
    • Final Product
    • Old Analysis
    • Old Movepool
    • Concept: Neglected Ability
      By Elevator Music

      Description: This pokemon will have an ability [or two] that is currently undervalued (but possibly very helpful) in the metagame but isn't used because the other pokemon with this ability don't have the stats or movepool to make it work.

      Justification: This is probably one of the best ways to go about learning about the metagame. Seeing why certain abilities don't see much play and what we can do to make them more used is an easy way to learn about the metagame. There is also the possibility that this pokemon will have a beneficial effect on the metagame and/or will create a new niche in the metagame (or take the niche of an old pokemon that didn't see much play).

      Explanation: There are plenty of abilities that we can base a concept around that don't see much play. I'm thinking things like Shield Dust (we all know how much I want a good pokemon to abuse this!), Shed Skin (though Rev has this covered imo), Simple, hell even things such as Solar Power or Forewarn. It would be silly of me to try and list out all the abilities we could use for this.

      I like this concept because it doesn't restrict typing or stats or whatever. There are so many possible directions this could go in we aren't narrowing too much down, but at the same time I feel it provides just enough direction to keep the pokemon on track.

    [​IMG]

    Colossoil
    Physical threat to many users of non-damaging moves
    • Final Product
    • Old Analysis
    • Old Movepool
    • Concept Stop the Secondary
      By moi

      Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

      Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

      Explanation: While not always being a "specific" strategy, the use of these moves is always a commonplace sight in any metagame. Depending on which moves this Pokémon can tackle, it can perform a role on any team, and be used to check a variety of threats. This Pokémon could use anything, from typing (Steel and Poison are immune to Toxic, Fire-types are immune to Will-o-Wisp), to abilities (Insomnia avoids sleep, Sticky Hold stops Trick), to moves (Magic Coat can stop things like Leech Seed and Status). While being able to remove a good number of moves from their purpose, it manages to remain open enough as to what you'd like to do and should be stressed that it should not try and stop all types of non damaging moves.

    [​IMG]

    Krilowatt
    Situational counter for a variety of common threats
    • Final Product
    • Old Analysis
    • Old Movepool
    • Concept: Utility Counter
      By reachzero

      General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.

      Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.

      Explanation: I envision this concept as looking like a more extreme version of Porygon2 or Hariyama; it can be custom designed to handle virtually any threat given the correct selection of EVs, moves, etc. However, in choosing to deal with certain threats almost flawlessly, it leaves itself open to other threats. Multitype would obviously make this concept's job much easier, though I doubt it is absolutely necessary to making it work.

    [​IMG]

    Voodoom
    Potent special attacker intended for use in an offensive core
    • Final Product
    • Old Analysis
    • Old Movepool
    • Concept: Perfect Mate
      By DougJustDoug

      General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

      Justification: This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
      The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

      Explanation: This concept is very similar to the "Partner in Crime" concept proposed back in CAP 7. But, with all the changes in the CAP process, and stagnation in the metagame, I think this is a good time for the CAP community to focus on the competitive factors of synergy between pokemon.

      I envision we will pick a base pokemon during the Concept Assessment. We will make a case to the TL for a good-but-not-great OU pokemon and the characteristics of that pokemon's "perfect mate". The Topic Leader would then select their favorite. We could even rename the concept to "<Pokemon>'s Perfect Mate" from that point forward.

      It think we could have some fantastic discussions every step of the way, dissecting the base pokemon in exacting detail to figure out the best way to make an ideal teammate. If we choose the right base pokemon, we might even breathe some new life into a sentimental favorite, that isn't quite up to top-OU standards on its own.

    [​IMG]

    Tomohawk
    Momentum builder gifted with team supporting abilities
    • Final Product
    • Old Analysis
    • Concept: Momentum
      By Korski

      General Description: This will be a Pokemon that can be utilized to gain or regain momentum for a player's team at any point in the match as its primary function.

      Justification: Gen. 5 is a very powerful metagame. As such, most battles are won by the smarter strategist who can best maneuver around his/her opponent's onslaught to gain even a single turn's advantage, potentially clinching them the match. This process of gaining and regaining momentum is most often the defining element that makes a winner and a loser out of a single Pokemon battle. Any top player in this metagame should agree that momentum is the most crucial element in any given match; however, "momentum" itself is a rather vaguely defined term that is never really explored in concrete terms. Is it keeping opposing teams on the defensive? Forcing switches? Good prediction? Spamming U-turn? These have all been approaches to achieving momentum, but they are also player-side and largely synonymous with "strategy," as opposed to Pokemon-side and regarding a Pokemon's role on the team. Certainly there are threats like Ferrothorn/Gliscor (defensive) and Scizor/Latios/Voltlos, etc., etc. (offensive) that can achieve momentum as we know it, but there is no current niche for a "momentum Pokemon" because the concept has been purely delegated to players and not to Pokemon.

      Explanation: This concept should teach us just as much about the metagame during its creation process than through actual playtesting, especially in the Concept Assessment, where the community should be looking to the metagame as a whole to analyze how successful teams and players gain, regain, and maintain momentum. Since momentum has largely been defined at the discretion of the battling community and takes many forms, so too could this CAP. Scizor, Blissey, Skarmory, Magnezone, Celebi, Jirachi (Celebi and Jirachi are great examples, due to their versatility), Heatran, Balloon Heatran, etc. can all achieve momentum according to their strengths, yet all are very different. Now, I'm not about to suggest that this CAP should be able to check everything in the metagame; that's not the goal here. What it should be able to do, though, is pose a reasonable threat in some manner to a good chunk of the metagame, enough to make opponents think twice about staying in or at least think very hard about what to switch into this Pokemon. A Pokemon with almost no offensive presence can do this just as well as a blunt instrument kind of Poke.

    [​IMG]

    Necturna
    Unpredictable bulky threat with access to Sketch
    • Final Product
    • Concept: Sketch Artist
      By Korski

      Description: A Pokemon that learns Sketch, once, and everything that goes along with that.

      Justification: I'd like us to spend some time thinking about the Pokemon and what it can teach us from how it changes the metagame, rather than the other way around where we choose an effect on the metagame and then develop a Pokemon around it.
      In terms of uniqueness, I think that few existing Pokemon can match DPP Smeargle, an otherwise laughably worthless Pokemon trolling OU with access to every trick in the book (or at least 4 of them) but also affecting the metagame greatly by becoming a top threat in the lead metagame. This Pokemon will borrow some of that uniqueness by learning the move Sketch and thus having access to ONE surprise/strategic/gutshot bonus move to supplement its pre-existing movepool. Being otherwise competently built (read: usable stats), this Poke could be a top threat or specialist for reasons we can't even predict yet.

      Explanation: The key here is that we have a lot of freedom to construct a unique Pokemon while staying within the confines of the concept. Typing, stats, abilities, and even most of the movepool are completely fair game so long as the Poke learns Sketch only once along the way and that we keep that in mind during previous steps. Now, this doesn't mean the CAP process will be directionless; Rising Dusk is pretty well organized and good at keeping discussions focused, and the concept itself has firm grounding in Smeargle's precedent. What's really being studied with this concept is movepool diversity and effectiveness, so it should have the most effect on the movepool process, where movepool creators will have to carefully balance their Sketchmon's actual movepool with the possibility of adding any one other move to the list. In terms of the metagame, there is no doubt in my mind that throwing a wildcard like this into the mix will strongly affect the metagame.

    I figure that now is the best time to make a thread about Mollux in the cap metagame, as well as a general purpose thread for discussion about how the B/W2 changes have affected the CAP Metagame. So feel free to discuss, throw down sets, and talk about what new and amazing ways this meta has found to break your soul!

    You may participate in the CAP metagame by heading over to the offical smogon simulator, Pokemon Showdown! Registering is simple - win one match, and then you may register your account. You don't even need a email! Please note that your teams are saved to your cookies, and not the Pokemon Showdown! server, so please make sure to back them up with the import/export teambuilder option.

    The CAP project also has a IRC channel we discuss the metagame, as well as past, present, and future projects on! #cap is your one stop shop for all IRC discussion on the Create-A-Pokemon project! If you have no idea how in the seven hecks this newfangled IRC technology works, you can find a guide here. Drop by, we won't bite! Although it does get rather silly at times.

    Please keep speculation and discussion about future, past, and current CAP projects out of this thread. This is for discussing the current CAP meta, not about the process of making CAPs.


    Personally, I think rain might be a bit absurd now, but that's just me. Tomohawk, the genies, Keldeo, Mollux...rain just has so many toys to play with. Also, RIP tentacruel you shall be missed.
  2. branhoff

    branhoff

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Wow! So many great pokemon! This may be a dumb question but what happens with these created pokemon? Is there a chance that Game freak will incorporate them into a new generation eventually?
  3. JimBob

    JimBob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,254
    They only exist on smogon and the cap server - they won't be incorporated in any real games. These Pokemon are made up, remember!
  4. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Doubles Co-Lead

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    I will contend that rain is disgustingly broken in the new CAP meta. I simply tossed Arghonaut, Thundy-T, Molly, Krill, and Tomo on a team with politoed and had no trouble steamrolling esteemed battler jazzers (aka jas61292) even though he had a tr reuniclus which absolutely tore up my team. There was no thought involved in crushing him with repeated strong attack after strong attack. If something's not done, i don't see how rain could fail to dominate the CAP meta for ages to come

    EDIT: i've used rain teams against others as well now, results are the same, rain is broken so much
  5. nyttyn

    nyttyn Ribbit!
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Tornadus-T is kind of absurdly good in this meta. There's little stopping him from just wrecking everything, including even Tomohawk! Regenerator too stronk. He's going to be on a lot of teams from now on.

    At the same time, I expect a lot of Gastrodon usage to rise, as he eats Thunders and water attacks like no tomorrow, giving teams that suffer against rain a real nice asset. Sadly he's still killed by Tomohawk, the champion of the current CAP meta.
  6. ShinyDreamer

    ShinyDreamer

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    Sometime in the nebulous shining-dream future I will find a way to send Pokemon submissions to Gamefreak; when that happens I will ask the CAP community for permission to submit some of their creations.
  7. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Doubles Co-Lead

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    [​IMG]

    And this is using a self-professed "three-minute team" made of broken rain CAPs and a couple physical mons that cover holes kinda. After actually making that team, it's only had one loss and something like fifteen wins, with absolutely no strategy involved. idk how we can fix the problem tho except by not making the next CAP good in rain at all
  8. srk1214

    srk1214 Goddess of Light
    is a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Mentor

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    Not making the next CAP good in rain at all would certainly influence the playtest. But if all it is is "not good in Rain" that doesn't mean it actually counters or checks the 5 minute rain team that is so ubiquitous in CAP meta. If that is the case, and rain remains dominant, then CAP4 would actually just not see much usage in the CAP meta.

    If our goal is in fact to build for the CAP meta, which it never has been, then we would want to actively attempt to break down a good chunk of rain's dominance. If we do build for OU though, as we always have, tough, CAP will remain rain dominant.
  9. Iluvkyogre

    Iluvkyogre

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2012
    Messages:
    51
    Rain=total domintion, I would like to see the next CAP being a rain counter. Breloom after one SD is too strong for CAP, no true checks, KOs everything. A breloom counter would be perfect. I personally like to use a double hurricane strategy, tomohawk weakens, tornadus-t kills sp yeah, Politoed getting banned in CAP.
  10. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

    Joined:
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    That wouldn't be an entire bad idea, given the absolute prevalence of rain in this metagame. The issue is, however, that Mollux was intended to be a water and rain counter in the first place, yet it seems like it's much, much more frequently used in favor of rain rather than against it. Making a rain counter would potentially end up as another Mollux--used for rain rather than against it. Generally speaking, our next CAP would either be an overall weather-slayer (with a bit of bias put against rain) or just something different entirely.

    I would love to see how well Mollux would function in a metagame without Politoed, however. Experimenting with the CAP metagame that way (which would be entirely fine given how CAP is essentially Smogon's metagame to be altered however we see fit) would not only give ourselves a temporary fix to rain, but also let us see if Mollux still functions well in its default use of being a Water-type counter, no Drizzles attached.
  11. uwnim

    uwnim

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2011
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    Mollux became a rain abuser instead of a rain counter because we went with Dry Skin. That made it take damage from the other three weathers and get excellent health restoration in the rain. A real anti-rain Pokemon would be possible, it would need to be something that has more use as a rain counter than a rain abuser though. For example, an Electric type with Water Aborb/Storm Drain and either doesn't have Thunder or is outclassed as a Thunder abuser would counter rain while an Electric type with Hydration and Hurricane+Thunder would be more likely to abuse it instead.
  12. ShyGuy1221

    ShyGuy1221

    Joined:
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    Since we are now on the subject of possible rain counters in future cap, would Swift Swim be an option. Because of the Drizzle/Swift Swim ban it would not be able to be on the same team as Politoad, and could turn the opponents rain against them. Though if that ban wasn't in place it would just be another powerful rain abuser. Just a crazy thought.
  13. uwnim

    uwnim

    Joined:
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    Yes, that would be the easy way to do it. Make a great Rain abuser and then give it Swift Swim with no other ability, Drought or a hindering ability like Truant
  14. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

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    Drought would be placing major favor on Sunlight, which is not the direction I think we'd want to head with in a rain-counter. Swift Swim and Cloud Nine would be our main ability nominations, not much else needed. I realized that we're terribly off topic. This is a Mollux / BW2 CAP Metagame thread, not nominations for CAP4. So with that...

    It seems like Mollux was created to be a little too good. The original concept was to give bad typing an extreme makeover that makes use of unusual strengths. While we technically did that, it seems like we didn't really learn an extreme amount from Mollux. When it comes down to it, we learned what it would be like if a Fire-type lacked a Water-type weakness and had a movepool that could benefit in rain... Which unsurprisingly is viable when one gives it one of the best abilities in the game in a weather-dominated environment. Mollux was fun to create and is fun to use, but it mainly feels like its addition to the CAP metagame had cemented rain's dominance beyond welcome measures. It's even worse when you literally see the same two Pokemon in Politoed and Mollux used in the same frequency as the first-released weatherfest in early Black and White.

    tl;dr, Mollux was an unstabilizing CAP and we should take more caution in expanding our CAP metagame.
  15. CiteAndPrune

    CiteAndPrune

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    I wouldn't put it that way. Mollux performs decently as a rain counter, insofar as halting the members of a rain team - defensive rain specifically, which was established as his goal during the process - is concerned. But yes the ability Dry Skin pushed him into being a rain abuser, moreso because every other weather now deals him damage. No Water moves (bar HP Water) hardly slows him down with Thunder and powerful STAB moves plus that juicy SAT stat.

    More than Mollux individually though, we all learned that rain as a playstyle is not just dominant, but adaptable, capable of adjusting to the presence of Mollux with small changes (like carrying more Psyshock) without losing any steam while it's steamrolling teams. And rain is not just Water Pokemon specifically, because of those Thunders and Hurricanes getting thrown around (and even Grass moves by Ludicolo to counter Gastrodon).

    What I'm trying to say is, a single Pokemon does not counter an entire weather. Especially with a weather starter around. Even if a CAP had Air Lock and was built into a sweeper you'd just bring in a counter and proceed reseting the rain strategy (like Kyogre-centered teams handle the threat of Rayquazza in Ubers).

    We won't know how Mollux would perform in CAP had we given him Drought as the ability, seeing as that stage is over, however, I don't think that even Drought would have stopped Rain so much (it would have robbed Mollux of his precious rain immunity and forced him to switch once Politoed entered, for example). Sun teams have to face their type-disadvantage against rain teams (as Fire is Water-weak and their Grass members are Flying-weak, hence Hurricane), we've known that for a long time.


    What I'm much more interested in is seeing how the CAP metagame would change if a whole new weather was introduced, and how it'd fare with the four already present. Though it'd need tweaks to moves and/or abilities and some existing Pokemon, to not be stuck in the position of pre-BW sandstorm that was delegated to defense because its true offensive abusers hadn't arrived yet. But oh well - that's something to shelve until CAP 4 nominations roll around...

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