Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Paleo]

Posting my opinions on the Zygarde 10 and 50 discussion. I ignored a ton of posts about zygarde because to put it bluntly most were complete garbage and shockingly lacking in reasoning to support their arguments so it just seemed useless to try and counterargue it. With the posts im addressing, I see actual reasons behind argument (albeit I think those reasons are wrong.)


I wanted to address DoW's view on Thousand arrows vs Zygarde from a few pages ago cuz I didn't get to before.

Au contraire, I believe at one point UU banned Geomancy (its only user was smeargle).
Edit: to stop this post being a one-liner, I see absolutely no reason why a move shouldn't be banned, especially when two mons are broken with it and neither mon is broken without it. A move ban would in this case be a) simpler (less individual things banned), b) leave less things banned allowing for a wider metagame, and c) in this particular case it's obvious why thousand arrows is different for mono than for metas like OU, because in OU you can just run a mon that isn't hit S.E. by it... Compare that to banning zygarde-doge which is nowhere near as good in conventional tiers, it's more obvious why things are the way they are.

I think you're wrong here. The fact that smeargle, a pokemon with a 250 BST, is broken with it obviously means that all pokemon with it are broken and the move itself is uncompetitive. Smeargle is a really good testing ground for uncompetitive moves because its has shitty stats but at the same time learns every move. Geomancy + Baton pass is obviously broken on every single pokemon if even an intrinsically bad pokemon is broken with it. It doesn't "disprove" what Acast said at all. "Au Contraire" cmon fam. This follows the smogon's precedent still, its a clear example of it. The banning of chatter in PU over the entire ban of Chatot would be an okay dispute, but that also has its flaws. Smeargle doesn't actually learn chatter, so its harder to tell if the move was broken or Chatot is broken, so I can see where the argument went with that.

• Zygarde is *potentially* broken with Thousand Waves ----> Zygarde is broken
• Smeargle is *potentially* broken with Thousand Waves ----> Thousand Waves is broken

a) simpler (less individual things banned)

This isn't how it works. By banning Thousand Arrows, you're separating the pokemon Zygarde from its exclusive move Thousand arrows, making these two entities, instead of one. This would be like banning Protean, instead of Greninja, because it views Protean not as an intrinsic trait of Greninja. THousand arrows is literally apart of what makes zygarde 10/50 zygarde now, and taking away that element changes the pokemon as a whole.

b) leave less things banned allowing for a wider metagame

What type of effect do you think ThousandArrows-less zygarde would have on the meta? As many of people have (for the wrong reasons) brought up zygarde's subpar stats. If it were something like an entire types best 8 mons or something getting banned, then yea you might have some sort of point here, but cmon this argument has very little weight holding up you saying that thousand arrows itself should be banned.

I dont even understand what part C meant

Edit: I'd also like to draw a comparison with the Shadow Tag ban. While banning Wobbuffet and Gothitelle would also have worked perfectly well, a Shadow Tag ban not only removed two problems with a single ban, it also made it easier to see why those two mons couldn't be used.

Shadow tag is an intrinsically noncompetitive ability because it takes out one of the biggest elements in the game: switching. The user automatically has a near overwhelming advantage over the opponent. Every pokemon that has the ability shadow tag does the same thing. This is different from Smeargle and Zygarde with thousand arrows, because zygarde is near broken with it, while smeargle isn't. Smeargle cannot abuse a 115 speed or really high bulk to setup Ddance, not has the attacking stats to do significant damage with it. Not sure why Arena Trap hasn't been looked at in OU, but the mono council has discussed shadow tag/arena trap but just didn't think they were prevalent enough in mono to be banned.


On whether I think Zygarde is broken or not:

You guys do realize they dont do bans base on if a poke beats a type anymore there was a change in philosophy. Especially to mons that already beat that type or is super effective against it. Zydog wont get banned if you guys just keep bringing up electric,rock,poison you need to prove that it breaks other types that its not super effective against other than that your points really are just complaints to you forcing yourself on a type that has a big threat in the current meta. As i said before its like scizor/terrakion to ice and its like a keldeo to rock though its a pain and hard to work around they arent broken. You just got to work that much harder now to keep up with the current meta. To further defend zydog its a slight buff to ground when it comes to certain match ups and all fairness it was needed now that grounds weakness to ice got made much hard with the added ability slush rush and new move aurora veil and such. You guys also make it seem like electric vs ground match up wasn't onesided before gravity lando was a very common threat that completely shuts down electric so I don't know why you guys choose to complain now when the same type of move was already in existence in the first place.

I think you're also wrong. Electric being near noncompetitive in a match up vs zygarde is not because of a problem with the typing of electric itself. Electric is multiple ground immunities in Rotom-w, Thundurus, and Zapdos. Zygarde's move thousand arrows ignores these. No typing has an immunity to this. You're literally saying: electric types are weak to ground types. Every single type has a weakness, but they're not left hopeless by them, which was evident with Electric vs ground types last gen. Electric teams, although not being able to hit ground types with its electric STAB attacks, were still at least competitive last gen. Now, the matchup is mindless button mashing by zygarde, and electric's attempts at playing around it. Flyingteams are extremely weak to zygarde (I played one game on the ladder yesterday but didn't save the replay, so take this part with a grain of salt, I can be completely wrong. I might ask around to play the matchup later but I'll prolly get lazy) but their natural immensities to thousand arrows is gone, which is not a problem made clear by any other mon than zygarde.

You guys also make it seem like electric vs ground match up wasn't onesided before gravity lando

How are you comparing gravity landorus to zygarde?????????
Thousand arrows is literally gravity and a 90 base power attack in one. Gravity only has one part of this, then it has 5 turns to attack. There is no restriction for for thousand arrows. Zygarde 10 has 115 base speed, so I dont see how this isnt similar to excadrill under 8 turns of sand back in oras that lead to the smooth rock ban.

• If smooth rock was allowed this gen, the only mon that would outspeed drill in sand would be Raichu under elec terrain. (this is with gravity up btw)
• With zygarde 10, the only relevant things that outspeed it are Tapu KOko, Raichu under elec terrain, and scarfXurkitree. Furthermore, Zygarde has eternal gravity, and keeps its speed.

The question we need to ask ourselves is Is this really that big a difference? I say no.
I think Zygarde 10 and 50 are busted in mono because of their exclusive move thousand arrows because the move ignores the would be counters types like electric, poison, and (tentative) flying originally had to it, but I did think we should give it more time because they're new pokemon, and im not ready to say outright that it has no place in monotype ever. It's so hard to tell this early. My thought process with quickbanning of gen7 mons is can the metagame potentially adapt to it/are we still stuck in an ORAS mindset with three weeks in. If yes, then wait. If no, then ban. If its obvious that mono cannot function while its in the meta, then I think it should be banned. If its not obvious, I think we should give the mon some time. Ground is a great offensive typing, and there are mechanics it's attacks, like air balloon and levitate, but thousand arrows ignores it, and its ground attack is given free reign.

This is part is for everyone whos sayin "lels XD zygarde is 10000000miles from being broken what u mean lolololxdxdxd":
For most suspects,I can understand both viewpoints. I cannot for this one. Someone please toss me some of your reasonings for it. You can PM me on PS or post it in the thread here. nvm L

 

[Vid]

The council has voted on Kartana, Metagrossite, Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, Zygarde 10%, and Zygarde
Reminder 5 pro-ban votes are needed for a Pokemon to get quick-banned
Kartana won't be banned (2 votes for ban, 5 votes for wait)
Metagrossite won't be banned (1 vote for ban, 6 votes for wait)
Tapu Lele is banned (7 Votes for ban)
Tapu Koko won't be banned (1 vote for ban, 6 votes for wait)
Zygarde 10% is banned (5 votes for ban, 2 votes for wait)
Zygarde won't be banned (4 Votes for ban, 3 votes for wait)
tagging The Immortal to implement these changes

 

[scpinion]

I'm sure the "wtf's!?!" are coming as people read through the numbers in the post above, so I'll go ahead and explain:

I'm the one that voted to ban Zydog, but wait on 50%. I voted this way simply because I don't have much experience playing with/against 50% and I refuse to vote to remove an element of the metagame that I haven't really play-tested.

 

[Jahkem]

I feel like if Kartana gets a suspect, once the quick bans are done, people are going to vote ban to get rid of it once and for all. Also, the Zydog ban is an interesting one. I'm wondering how that will play out. I'll have to take it off my Ground team and use 50% to see if I get similar success on ladder or in tours as Zydog did for me.

 

[ScorpionZ]

So why was zydog banned in a clear explanation please?

 

[Moosical]

I'd just like to say that, I'm not shocked that tapu lele got banned, but I'm more shocked at the lack of discussion it had in this thread. I haven't seen any(?) posts on tapu lele, but the op-ness was pretty apparent by just playing the meta. I think keeping in zygarde-50% is fine for the time being, but once people figure out the proper set and evs for it, I could see it getting out of hand like zygarde-10%.

We've already had tons of discussion on the other mons up for ban (kartana and metagrossite), but I hope that people will start posting about other potential threats to the metagame. I haven't seen any discussion on tapu koko. I think removing that from electric would be extremely limiting to the type and just have it revert back to its gen6 form (making raichu-a useless) while having one addition of yet another super-special attacker (and I guess golem-a). However, I can see koko being very strong on fairy type. I suppose this is at least minorly similar to banning m-sableye in gen6, where without it ghost was put into the ditch. But, teams don't necessarily need to bring a specific koko counter in order to deal with it, so it's not really the same thing.

Nevertheless, I'm hoping to see at least some posts on magearna, tapu koko, m-slowbro, greninja and, m-sableye.

 

[Acast]

I'm going to start this post off by saying that I can't fault scpinion. He followed his principles and had the best interests of the metagame in mind, so I have nothing but respect for him.

That being said, I disagreed with either Zygarde form being banned. My opinion is that neither should go, but if one goes, then both should. I've been playing with Zygarde 50% from the beginning of the generation and I can honestly say that it's just as much of an issue as Zydog was. Zydog is a fast, hard-hitting attacker that doesn't typically set up. Zygarde is a bulkier setup sweeper that is difficult to stop once it gets going. Here's the set I've been using on Dragon:

Zygarde @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed

All it takes is some dual screens support or the free switch from Latios's Memento and it can plough through the vast majority of teams with relative ease. The Dragonium Z is to give it a 190 base power one-time Dragon attack that doesn't lock it into Outrage for 2-3 turns. It's perfect for eliminating that one pokemon on your opponent's team that can take a hit and cripple or phaze Zygarde out (examples: Swampert, Hippowdon, Alomomola, etc).

the full team

Zygarde @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Dragon Tail
- Fire Blast

Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Dragalge @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Focus Blast

Latias @ Light Clay
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Roost

Latios @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Memento
- Defog

Keep in mind this team isn't optimized by any stretch of the imagination. Latios might be better off with some form of coverage and a Life Orb since its ultimate goal is to kill itself anyway, but play around with the team if you want to. I don't know how well this set will work on Ground teams, but I can't imagine it would be any different.

Hint for people that want to try Dragon Dance Zygarde 50% on Ground teams:
Dugtrio learns Memento.

 

[czim]

So with those bans we can basically rename the tier "monosteel". I'm not disagreeing on the tapu lele ban and i'm kinda on the fence on zydog, but how the council fails to see the steel dominance and the fact that a big part (if not most) of the biggest threats on the meta are all concentrated on a single type is just wierd to say the least, making the meta extremely unbalanced. I understand you thinking that mega meta, kartana or magearna are not broken alone (although i disagree, especially on meta), but with the ridiculous team support steel has just became mindless to win with. Please discuss this, for the sake of the metagame.

 

[Balto]

So with those bans we can basically rename the tier "monosteel". I'm not disagreeing on the tapu lele ban and i'm kinda on the fence on zydog, but how the council fails to see the steel dominance and the fact that a big part (if not most) of the biggest threats on the meta are all concentrated on a single type is just wierd to say the least, making the meta extremely unbalanced. I understand you thinking that mega meta, kartana or magearna are not broken alone (although i disagree, especially on meta), but with the ridiculous team support steel has just became mindless to win with. Please discuss this, for the sake of the metagame.

Yea, i could definitely see steel being among the top types but I wouldn't go as far as to say it completely dominates the metagame.Ground is still at peak usage right now even with zydog gone, regular zygarde still remains which was already on a good bit of ground teams. I think steel is very beatable in many MUs with the removal of genesect(had it not been banned, this would be a different story though.) I think this next testing period with a much more established meta will decide whether meta goes or not.

 

[Dece1t]

I need to be brutally honest, I do not like the fact that Zygarde-10% was banned in the circumstances it was. Barely any replays were posted on it to justify any of the points, good or bad, that were made about it, which is I think was a huge mistake to vote on it with that not being taken into consideration. Theorymonning is one thing, but actually putting it into practice is a whole other story that has to be addressed. That's what happened with Mega Gallade back in ORAS, and once it was unbanned, it ended up being not nearly as broken in the slightest as originally claimed. Yes, Zygarde is fast, and yea, it can hit Flying types and other forms of Ground immunities with a Ground attack, but that does not mean that that is the sole reason it should be banned. From my experience playing with it, to be completely truthful, I did not find Zygarde as overwhelming as people pointed it out to be, and here's why:

1. Ground already threatened Flying with other very dangerous methods prior to the introduction of Thousand Arrows. I mentioned this in a previous post I did, but I want to relay it further due to the the ban. Especially with no Mega Gyarados on Flying anymore, Ground actually has an easier time against the type in general, with or without Zydog. Mamoswine is a huge example, with not only strong Ice STAB, but Ice priority on top of that to land easy revenge kills--it also wouldn't be common for Ice Shard to 2KO if not OHKO certain Pokemon after SR damage. Along with Mamoswine, there's also Gravity Landorus. You can literally set that up against Skarmory, Celesteela, or Zapdos and instantly threaten the entire team with its base 101 speed tier, and STAB Sheer Force LO boosted Earth Power coming from a base 115 neutral Special Attack (significantly stronger than Nidoking, who can also put some pressure on Flying teams at times with strong Ice Beam coverage). Not to mention, a lot of Ground mons run EdgeQuake coverage for the sole reason to hit Flying types that are clearly immune to Earthquake (primary examples being Excadrill, Garchomp, Landorus-I + T, Krookodile, the point being here a LOT of mons tend to run Stone Edge or Rock Slide). Zygarde-10% does not change that fact, other than it can now safely be choice locked, which other than that is really about it. Landorus-T, regular Gyarados, and non-grounded Celesteela are able to effectively check it.

Calcs

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 235-277 (94 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 133-157 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 139-165 (55.6 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 150-177 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(this is assuming you are running the Bulk RestTalk set)

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 148-175 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 253-298 (101.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(this is assuming standard Dragon Dance Gyarados)

4 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandile: 116-137 (46.5 - 55%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO (Sandile and Zygarde-10% share the same weight, hence I used that since Zydog was not updated onto the calc yet, but put in it's HP and Defense stat for an accurate calc)
252 Atk Sandile Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 87-103 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO (yes, I did also swap out its attack stat as well because I was too lazy to put the zygarde spread back in)
252 Atk Sandile Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 174-206 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO

2. Ground does not have a form of momentum to safely bring it in. Due to its considerably frail defenses, consisting of 54 / 71 / 85, you probably won't want to switch this thing into any attacks. You need to manually find a way to bring it in safely in order for it to get the chance to inflict real damage. Wanka also mentioned this above, and truthfully this is a huge point to consider. Think about it, Landorus-T is the most viable U-Turn user on Ground teams, however, with no Mega Camerupt, you're now essentially forced to use Landorus-I as a Special Attacker to prevent yourself from getting completely physically walled. That being said, it really is difficult to get it in safely, not to mention with only base 100 neutral attack boosted by Choice Band, there are, funny enough, plenty of switch ins to it (aside from types that Ground already has a considerable advantage over, some primary examples are Slowbro, Mandibuzz, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, Swampert, Porygon2, Hippowdon, and I can honestly continue this list, but, from here I think I'm getting my point accross.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 124-147 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 153-181 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (it is also worth mentioning that it'll more than likely Giga Drain you)

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 189-223 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 127-150 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 171-202 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

3. 90% of the time Zygarde is choice locked. This is the last thing I want to bring up about Zydog. As I mentioned 100 base Attack stat, neutral especially, is not gonna get you anywhere. LO makes you much more open to priority kills with 10% of your health being withered down each turn, so you really are essentially forced to run it with a Choice Band for a more satisfactory Attack stat. This makes playing around it significantly easier than a lot of people were making it out to be, since it is now locked into only 1 Attack for the duration that its in. Find a switch into it, referring back to the point that I made above, is not very hard.

To conclude this, I just want to make a plea to consider suspecting this properly once the SUMO settling period ends. It's not nearly as broken as people are making it out to be in the very slightest, and the fact that almost no replays were posted, if any, to back up any positive or negative claims really is disappointing to see when it's now banned because of strictly theorymonning. I unfortunately have not saved very many replays since it's taken me a little while to make Ground teams that can adapt to the ever-changing unstable metagame atm, but I plan to in the near future when I have time to back up all of the claims I've made here. I truthfully am baffled by the notion to ban it, and I sincerely do think it was very much so overhyped. Lastly, by all means, prove me if I'm wrong by all means, because again, based on a lot of the facts mentioned prior to this by myself and others, along with my experience playing with it, I've seen very little reason to comprehend the decision (KGBanter can probably also back me up here, since we did have a discussion about it, and came to the conclusion that it really is not as overcentralizing as people claim).

 

[Bitana]

Honestly, the only question I have to ask when it comes to the bans and not-bans is how in the world did Kartana get more votes than Metagross??

(Oh and I agree with Czim. All aboard the Steel Type: The Meta, The Movie, The Game train)

 

[Wanka]

I've already talked with some of the council briefly about my thoughts on the 10% ban as I do believe that was not an ideal pokemon to ban as I do not think it gave ground an over the top edge against certain types and I thought it was a great addition to the meta.

So from what I'm gathering, the general consensus across the council was that "If one of them is broken, then the other one is as well." This is obviously in regards to both zygardes. Most feel that 50% is in fact broken so they also feel that 10% should be banned and the only reason that 50% didn't get banned was because, as scp just said, he hasn't had the chance to use it yet. However, I do not think the the consensus the council reached was logical and it should not have been used against 10%.

While both forms of zygarde share the common move of Thousand Arrows, they still act as different pokemon and serve different function for ground teams. That statement alone should make it so the notion of "if one is broken so is the other" useless because you can't tie together pokemon that have different functions and do different things. That all being said, i will explain why they are different and what exactly each one does.

10%

- Zygarde 10% was introduced into the meta as a new wall breaker that ground teams now had access too. It has a fantastic speed tier and a good but not great damage output when you slap a choice band on it. Its access to thousand arrows also made it increasingly difficult to switch into as it took away any immunity a type could have for its ground STAB.

- There are also some very notable flaws in zygarde 10% that I feel were overlooked by the council. I have previously stated this in one of my recent posts but I will say it again because I again feel like the got brushed aside. Zygarde 10% has way below average bulk with a whopping 54 base hp stat backed by a defense stat of 71 and a special defense stat of 85. With these stats, I think it is widely agreed upon that 10% has absolutely no defensive utility on ground teams. Now, for a wall breaker, having defensive utility sometimes does not really mean much considering wall breakers generally have ways of getting into battle without having to take damage. These methods are general through either slow momentum grabbing, or fast switch forcing momentum grabbing. Unfortunately for zygarde 10%, ground has access to neither of these so the poor dog is forced to either let one of its teammates die in order to find its way in or predict its opponent and find its way in via double switch. The fact about those methods is that neither of them are broken and they are completely healthy for a metagame.

- I've been confronted with "Well Wanka, when it does get it, it goes INSANE!" Besides like fire, rock (shuckle setting webs on it is actually really nice and lets rocks take advantage of it) and electric, (which still isn't even that good of an excuse because zydog still cant switch in against 2/3 of elec teams and elec teams still have ways to outspeed it as well) There aren't any types where it gets a kill every time it comes in. It puts pressure on a lot of types, but thats what wall breakers are supposed to fucking do. Hoopa puts pressure on a lot of types and has a better chance of getting a kill everytime in comes than zydog does. AND on top of that, hoopa has more support, better bulk, and methods of momentum for it to find its way into battles more. zydog has NONE of those and doesn't threaten the meta nearly as much but it somehow gets banned??

- "Well Wanka, you left out steel and flying, what do those types have for zydog???" Flying has options of defensive mantine, mandibuzz, and gliscor that all reliable switch in and force out zydog. It doesn't switch in on anything against steel and can't break through ferro cores nor get past kartana. Steel had the matchup advantage anyways even with zydog lmao.

- tl;dr Zydog is a strong wall breaker that puts pressure on many types due to it's speed and ability to bypass any immunity to ground. However, it is a very flawed mon in the sense that it has noticable trouble finding its way into battles compared to other strong wall breakers in the meta. It also, while pressures many types, is not a mon by any means that "gets a kill everytime it comes in."

The Difference between 10% and 50%

- As I said, another key part of why zydog was banned was due to the notion of "If one of them gets banned, the other one should as well." And the only reason 50% didn't get banned was because scp hadn't tested it yet.

- I explained how zydog functions as a wall breaker in my words above. That being said, zygarde 50% does not function as a wall breaker for ground teams, so it should not be treated as such. Zygarde 50% is a sweeper, clean cut. It has very good defensive stats for a sweeper and has access to dragon dance. It got a significant buff in gen 7 with the intro of Thousand Arrows which made it deadlier as a sweeper. It has the ability to threaten types similar to zydog, but it threatens them even more and to a greater extent with its sweeping capabilities. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-490627465 --------------------> This is just a replay of zygarde 50% brooming a water team with relative ease. To add insult to injury, it really only needs its stabs to sweep and can run something like toxic as a filler to cripple checks early game to make a sweep easier. Shit, you could even run hp fire if u rlly wanted to to stop a scarf kartana in its tracks. On a side note I feel like something like chesto resto would be decent, but I haven;t tried anything like it yet so I wouldn't really know. The thought of it makes it an even more versatile sweeper though, which just makes it scarier.

- Zydog does not threaten the meta to the extent that 50% does as 50%'s sweeping/boosting abilities make it much harder for offensive builds to revenge kill it, and defensive builds to wall it. Again, while they share TA, they both function on ground teams differently and should be treated as such. Putting them in a statement of "if one gets banned then so should the other" is completely illogical.


Hopefully I came off clear. It's hard to get across my thoughts in these rlly long posts sometimes.

 

[Endal]

I need to be brutally honest, I do not like the fact that Zygarde-10% was banned in the circumstances it was. Barely any replays were posted on it to justify any of the points, good or bad, that were made about it, which is I think was a huge mistake to vote on it with that not being taken into consideration. Theorymonning is one thing, but actually putting it into practice is a whole other story that has to be addressed. That's what happened with Mega Gallade back in ORAS, and once it was unbanned, it ended up being not nearly as broken in the slightest as originally claimed. Yes, Zygarde is fast, and yea, it can hit Flying types and other forms of Ground immunities with a Ground attack, but that does not mean that that is the sole reason it should be banned. From my experience playing with it, to be completely truthful, I did not find Zygarde as overwhelming as people pointed it out to be, and here's why:

1. Ground already threatened Flying with other very dangerous methods prior to the introduction of Thousand Arrows. I mentioned this in a previous post I did, but I want to relay it further due to the the ban. Especially with no Mega Gyarados on Flying anymore, Ground actually has an easier time against the type in general, with or without Zydog. Mamoswine is a huge example, with not only strong Ice STAB, but Ice priority on top of that to land easy revenge kills--it also wouldn't be common for Ice Shard to 2KO if not OHKO certain Pokemon after SR damage. Along with Mamoswine, there's also Gravity Landorus. You can literally set that up against Skarmory, Celesteela, or Zapdos and instantly threaten the entire team with its base 101 speed tier, and STAB Sheer Force LO boosted Earth Power coming from a base 115 neutral Special Attack (significantly stronger than Nidoking, who can also put some pressure on Flying teams at times with strong Ice Beam coverage). Not to mention, a lot of Ground mons run EdgeQuake coverage for the sole reason to hit Flying types that are clearly immune to Earthquake (primary examples being Excadrill, Garchomp, Landorus-I + T, Krookodile, the point being here a LOT of mons tend to run Stone Edge or Rock Slide). Zygarde-10% does not change that fact, other than it can now safely be choice locked, which other than that is really about it. Landorus-T, regular Gyarados, and non-grounded Celesteela are able to effectively check it.

Calcs

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 235-277 (94 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 133-157 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

4 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 139-165 (55.6 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 150-177 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(this is assuming you are running the Bulk RestTalk set)

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 148-175 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 253-298 (101.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(this is assuming standard Dragon Dance Gyarados)

4 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandile: 116-137 (46.5 - 55%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO (Sandile and Zygarde-10% share the same weight, hence I used that since Zydog was not updated onto the calc yet, but put in it's HP and Defense stat for an accurate calc)
252 Atk Sandile Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 87-103 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO (yes, I did also swap out its attack stat as well because I was too lazy to put the zygarde spread back in)
252 Atk Sandile Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 174-206 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO

2. Ground does not have a form of momentum to safely bring it in. Due to its considerably frail defenses, consisting of 54 / 71 / 85, you probably won't want to switch this thing into any attacks. You need to manually find a way to bring it in safely in order for it to get the chance to inflict real damage. Wanka also mentioned this above, and truthfully this is a huge point to consider. Think about it, Landorus-T is the most viable U-Turn user on Ground teams, however, with no Mega Camerupt, you're now essentially forced to use Landorus-I as a Special Attacker to prevent yourself from getting completely physically walled. That being said, it really is difficult to get it in safely, not to mention with only base 100 neutral attack boosted by Choice Band, there are, funny enough, plenty of switch ins to it (aside from types that Ground already has a considerable advantage over, some primary examples are Slowbro, Mandibuzz, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, Swampert, Porygon2, Hippowdon, and I can honestly continue this list, but, from here I think I'm getting my point accross.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.5 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 124-147 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 153-181 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (it is also worth mentioning that it'll more than likely Giga Drain you)

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 189-223 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 127-150 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 171-202 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

3. 90% of the time Zygarde is choice locked. This is the last thing I want to bring up about Zydog. As I mentioned 100 base Attack stat, neutral especially, is not gonna get you anywhere. LO makes you much more open to priority kills with 10% of your health being withered down each turn, so you really are essentially forced to run it with a Choice Band for a more satisfactory Attack stat. This makes playing around it significantly easier than a lot of people were making it out to be, since it is now locked into only 1 Attack for the duration that its in. Find a switch into it, referring back to the point that I made above, is not very hard.

To conclude this, I just want to make a plea to consider suspecting this properly once the SUMO settling period ends. It's not nearly as broken as people are making it out to be in the very slightest, and the fact that almost no replays were posted, if any, to back up any positive or negative claims really is disappointing to see when it's now banned because of strictly theorymonning. I unfortunately have not saved very many replays since it's taken me a little while to make Ground teams that can adapt to the ever-changing unstable metagame atm, but I plan to in the near future when I have time to back up all of the claims I've made here. I truthfully am baffled by the notion to ban it, and I sincerely do think it was very much so overhyped. Lastly, by all means, prove me if I'm wrong by all means, because again, based on a lot of the facts mentioned prior to this by myself and others, along with my experience playing with it, I've seen very little reason to comprehend the decision (KGBanter can probably also back me up here, since we did have a discussion about it, and came to the conclusion that it really is not as overcentralizing as people claim).

After rocks isnt there a chance for slowbro to get 2hkoed, also if its widdled its not a switchin
Mandibuzz gets 2hkoed after rocks
Max defense mega venusaur is pretty bad and after rocks its not even a switchin with the calc u posted.
swampert has no recovery outside of lefties or rest lol...
porygon2 , i mean its obviously a huge tank but a super power calc woulda been smarter to post

As to address your choice locked issue. Isn't that why zydog is so good? You can literally spam a ground move and not get punished by them switching in a flying type / levitater / air balloon mon. Not to mention they'll have to recover off the damage because from the "walls" you showed us most of them take at least 40% damage so you can just switch out safely. in many matchups one move is all you need to click unless you're insane and decide to click superpower on a celesteela mad0ka.

 

[Eien]

Dece1t, before I start, I would appreciate it if you didn't imply that the council theorymons without playtesting. If you didn't notice, scp voted wait on 50% because he didn't have personal experience with it. And while I don't want to speak for the rest of the council, I know that I'm not going to vote ban on anything I haven't personally seen in action.

I don't think Zygarde-10% is even comparable to Mega Gallade. I assume you mean that we aren't giving the meta enough time to adapt to it; how exactly do you think teams like Fire and Electric are going to adapt to Thousand Arrows 6-0ing them? Rotom-C on Electric? Hidden Power Ice Choice Scarf Rotom-H on Fire? Zygarde-10% clicks Thousand Arrows every time it comes in and it will eventually win the game on its own.

I am completely lost as to why Flying "losing to Ground anyway" is relevant to Zygarde-10%. Flying isn't the sole matchup that Zygarde-10% is broken in, and we don't tier around any types either.

But just for the sake of showing you why you're wrong: first, Mamoswine, you've got to be joking me. Mamoswine is still completely walled by Skarmory no matter what without Gravity, and Gravity Landorus is pretty bad. You need to burn your entire turn to use Gravity, and it only lasts for 5 turns. Furthermore, Landorus is not even a threat because it's completely walled by Mantine if it runs Gravity. Nobody is running Gravity + Rock Slide, that's literally not a set. Plus, as I said, Gravity Landorus is a pretty bad set anyway. Gravity literally cannot even be compared with Thousand Arrows. Thousand Arrows doesn't waste your turn, as it is guaranteed to deal damage, and is a great move to be using on your set all the time anyway. You remember how Electric Terrain wasn't used at all in ORAS? Yeah, it's the same principle. Tapu Koko automatically sets up Electric Terrain and takes advantage of it at the same time. On offense teams, you don't have the time or momentum to be wasting turns using Gravity. And it's a pretty niche target anyway.

You don't always need a pivot move to bring a Pokemon in safely. That's like implying that because Fighting didn't have a pivot in ORAS (outside of the very occasionally used Cobalion) it couldn't utilize Mega Medicham or Keldeo. That's completely untrue. The archetype I'm using Ground with the most is offense. You can use pressure and momentum to bring Zygarde-10% in safely. That's literally how offense works. Did you notice its base 115 Speed? Zygarde is incredibly fast and has many opportunities. It's even easier with sand offense because Hippowdon can function as a a good defensive pivot. And by the way, Landorus-T is fine, not sure why it can't be used. Landorus is definitely a very good Pokemon, but I wouldn't write off Landorus-T completely.

And regarding your walls, even Mega Medicham has counters. Many of your examples can be beaten with Stealth Rock support and generally it isn't a colossal task to do very minor chip damage because that's all you need to prevent them from switching in.

Your point about Zygarde being Choice-locked is literally irrelevant. There's no risk in just clicking Thousand Arrows against some teams. This is reminiscent of Mega Sableye in ORAS. You just win by mindlessly clicking buttons until they lose. This isn't Mega Scizor, which needs at least some thought. A monkey could use Zygarde-10% and beat Fire. There's no skill in clicking one button over and over. It's ridiculous. You actually make my point: Zygarde just spams Choice Band-boosted Thousand Arrows until it wins.

I am all for letting the metagame adapt around threats. That is why I've been consistently voting wait on Mega Metagross and Kartana; I want to see how teams build around their weaknesses. Zygarde-10% is a completely different ballgame. I don't think Rotom-C on Electric teams is a healthy adaptation to Zygarde-10%, just like I didn't think Poison Fang Rivalry Nidoqueen was a healthy adaptation to Mega Sableye. You can't viably build around a free win.

e: just to add for the "monosteel" stuff and i cbf to make this look good: yea that's literally not even a thing. elec, ground, flying are all really good rn and they can handle steel. steel might be really good but it ain't even close to being so good that it needs to be nerfed via the last point of the tiering philosophy. gl proving the type itself is broken bc it ain't miles ahead of the others.

 

[Tyke]

So with those bans we can basically rename the tier "monosteel". I'm not disagreeing on the tapu lele ban and i'm kinda on the fence on zydog, but how the council fails to see the steel dominance and the fact that a big part (if not most) of the biggest threats on the meta are all concentrated on a single type is just wierd to say the least, making the meta extremely unbalanced. I understand you thinking that mega meta, kartana or magearna are not broken alone (although i disagree, especially on meta), but with the ridiculous team support steel has just became mindless to win with. Please discuss this, for the sake of the metagame.

Upon reflection and many thoughtful discussions with the community (and players like Acast, Wanka, and Paleo) I've come to agree that of the potentially-broken pokemon on Steel (Kartana, Mega-Gross, and arguably Magearna) none are suitable for a quickban.

That's not to say I think their combined presence on Steel is healthy for the metagame: I don't.

I believe Mega-Metagross, Kartana, and Magearna are individually meta-defining. Each has a pervasive influence on the metagame and can dominate at least 2-3 match ups (excluding low-tier types like ice/rock/fighting) with little support or running a suboptimal set (i.e. scarf serperior). Because of their MU-defining capability, flexibility, and overall low-cost/high-reward to run all three see high usage on their respective types at any level of play. Given that, their combined presence on Steel is absurd.

But while I think most of us can agree Steel is overpowered in the current meta-game, I doubt most of us could agree on what exactly is broken. It's hard to tell if these pokemon are individually broken or just broken in tandem, and the ban of one could impact the other's capacity to dominate matchups (and overall impact on the metagame) in ways we can't fully appreciate within the scope of a quickban discussion.

TL;DR: Because Mega-Metagross, Kartana, and Magearna are on the same type (and often the same teams) it's difficult to discern which of them is most unhealthy for the metagame; or perhaps more aptly, whose ban would best benefit the tier.

This ended up a bit of a ramble, and I don't mean to presume the Council's reasoning for not quickbanning these pervasive steel-mons, I just thought I'd share why I think voting "wait" for Kartana and Mega-Metagross was a good decision. I definitely sympathize with those in the community who are frustrated that addressing Steel's dominance in the meta-game didn't take precedence over banning "Zydoge".

 

[Haaku.]

Hi all. I was going to quote a few posts but I see that basically all the points have been made on both sides. I think it is worth adding what Paleo personally told me about the topic of quickbans vs suspect tests. Please keep in mind that these are essentially his thoughts but the wording may not be exact.

A quickban should happen when a Pokemon needs to get banned, because the metagame literally cannot progress with it present. In other words (my own thoughts), a Pokemon that, very clearly, falls into the broken category without doubt should be considered for a quickban.

A suspect test obviously occurs after quickbans do and it is meant for threats that may have some reason to be broken, but it is not clear and there is an argument for it as well as against it.

Again, going back to my own opinions: I don't think that Pokemon like Kartana and Mega Metagross should be quickbanned. We should let the metagame adapt to these Pokemon before jumping to "quickban." There is a very solid argument for the people that want them gone, but there is also a very logical defense too, so this creates a dilemma that, in my opinion, falls into the "suspect test" category.

Thoughts on this?

 

[czim]

Upon reflection and many thoughtful discussions with the community (and players like Acast, Wanka, and Paleo) I've come to agree that of the potentially-broken pokemon on Steel (Kartana, Mega-Gross, and arguably Magearna) none are suitable for a quickban.

That's not to say I think their combined presence on Steel is healthy for the metagame: I don't.

I believe Mega-Metagross, Kartana, and Magearna are individually meta-defining. Each has a pervasive influence on the metagame and can dominate at least 2-3 match ups (excluding low-tier types like ice/rock/fighting) with little support or running a suboptimal set (i.e. scarf serperior). Because of their MU-defining capability, flexibility, and overall low-cost/high-reward to run all three see high usage on their respective types at any level of play. Given that, their combined presence on Steel is absurd.

But while I think most of us can agree Steel is overpowered in the current meta-game, I doubt most of us could agree on what exactly is broken. It's hard to tell if these pokemon are individually broken or just broken in tandem, and the ban of one could impact the other's capacity to dominate matchups (and overall impact on the metagame) in ways we can't fully appreciate within the scope of a quickban discussion.


This ended up a bit of a ramble, and I don't mean to presume the Council's reasoning for not quickbanning these pervasive steel-mons, I just thought I'd share why I think voting "wait" for Kartana and Mega-Metagross was a good decision for those in the community who are frustrated that addressing Steel's dominance in the meta-game didn't take precedence over banning "Zydoge".

Ok so, we have 3 very powerful mons on the same type. Then we'll ban none so we find out which one is the most broken/unhealthy to the metagame. Makes sense. But I do agree with your post overall and we both know our reasoning pretty well.

Dece1t, before I start, I would appreciate it if you didn't imply that the council theorymons without playtesting. If you didn't notice, scp voted wait on 50% because he didn't have personal experience with it. And while I don't want to speak for the rest of the council, I know that I'm not going to vote ban on anything I haven't personally seen in action.

I don't think Zygarde-10% is even comparable to Mega Gallade. I assume you mean that we aren't giving the meta enough time to adapt to it; how exactly do you think teams like Fire and Electric are going to adapt to Thousand Arrows 6-0ing them? Rotom-C on Electric? Hidden Power Ice Choice Scarf Rotom-H on Fire? Zygarde-10% clicks Thousand Arrows every time it comes in and it will eventually win the game on its own.

I am completely lost as to why Flying "losing to Ground anyway" is relevant to Zygarde-10%. Flying isn't the sole matchup that Zygarde-10% is broken in, and we don't tier around any types either.

But just for the sake of showing you why you're wrong: first, Mamoswine, you've got to be joking me. Mamoswine is still completely walled by Skarmory no matter what without Gravity, and Gravity Landorus is pretty bad. You need to burn your entire turn to use Gravity, and it only lasts for 5 turns. Furthermore, Landorus is not even a threat because it's completely walled by Mantine if it runs Gravity. Nobody is running Gravity + Rock Slide, that's literally not a set. Plus, as I said, Gravity Landorus is a pretty bad set anyway. Gravity literally cannot even be compared with Thousand Arrows. Thousand Arrows doesn't waste your turn, as it is guaranteed to deal damage, and is a great move to be using on your set all the time anyway. You remember how Electric Terrain wasn't used at all in ORAS? Yeah, it's the same principle. Tapu Koko automatically sets up Electric Terrain and takes advantage of it at the same time. On offense teams, you don't have the time or momentum to be wasting turns using Gravity. And it's a pretty niche target anyway.

You don't always need a pivot move to bring a Pokemon in safely. That's like implying that because Fighting didn't have a pivot in ORAS (outside of the very occasionally used Cobalion) it couldn't utilize Mega Medicham or Keldeo. That's completely untrue. The archetype I'm using Ground with the most is offense. You can use pressure and momentum to bring Zygarde-10% in safely. That's literally how offense works. Did you notice its base 115 Speed? Zygarde is incredibly fast and has many opportunities. It's even easier with sand offense because Hippowdon can function as a a good defensive pivot. And by the way, Landorus-T is fine, not sure why it can't be used. Landorus is definitely a very good Pokemon, but I wouldn't write off Landorus-T completely.

And regarding your walls, even Mega Medicham has counters. Many of your examples can be beaten with Stealth Rock support and generally it isn't a colossal task to do very minor chip damage because that's all you need to prevent them from switching in.

Your point about Zygarde being Choice-locked is literally irrelevant. There's no risk in just clicking Thousand Arrows against some teams. This is reminiscent of Mega Sableye in ORAS. You just win by mindlessly clicking buttons until they lose. This isn't Mega Scizor, which needs at least some thought. A monkey could use Zygarde-10% and beat Fire. There's no skill in clicking one button over and over. It's ridiculous. You actually make my point: Zygarde just spams Choice Band-boosted Thousand Arrows until it wins.

I am all for letting the metagame adapt around threats. That is why I've been consistently voting wait on Mega Metagross and Kartana; I want to see how teams build around their weaknesses. Zygarde-10% is a completely different ballgame. I don't think Rotom-C on Electric teams is a healthy adaptation to Zygarde-10%, just like I didn't think Poison Fang Rivalry Nidoqueen was a healthy adaptation to Mega Sableye. You can't viably build around a free win.

e: just to add for the "monosteel" stuff and i cbf to make this look good: yea that's literally not even a thing. elec, ground, flying are all really good rn and they can handle steel. steel might be really good but it ain't even close to being so good that it needs to be nerfed via the last point of the tiering philosophy. gl proving the type itself is broken bc it ain't miles ahead of the others.

Eien , watch/comment Arken's replays, maybe that'll change your mind. (Ty for the "gl" btw)

Alright, let's begin, salt aside. Steel shouldn't have the matchup table it has right now, it's just plain ridiculous that you guys think that's alright in a metagame that should be diverse like ours.
I personally don't want the meta to ever be a Rock/Paper/Scissors game, but right now Steel can basically create a situation like that with almost every type if it builds the team to do so or just runs the right mon. I don't mind some types having a legit advantage over others, but when something like Kartana and Mega Metagross turns the tables on matchups (or just makes a neutral matchup incredibly easier) on a type that already has a pretty impressive matchup table, I just can't see how they can be healthy to the metagame, especially combined.

Let's looks at the types themselves and how steel does vs them and how those mons impact the metagame
Poison - Mega Metagross mindlessly soloes, with the exceptions being Salazzle (that cant switch in and just gives Heatran a free switch) and the Dark/Poisons, most notably Muk, that gets 2hkoed by Meteor Mash unless it runs def investment.
Grass - Kartana and Serperior can be problems, but again, nothing really switches in on Metagross without giving Heatran or Skarmory a switch-in
Psychic - Victini's tough to play around, but Kartana can pretty much just start killing with Night Slash/Leaf Blade, to a point where Victini's forced to use a fire move, giving Heatran a free switchin.
Flying - Magearna and Mega Meta can basically eat this type alive if any of them run elec/ice coverage with SR support
Rock - Rock
Ice - Ice
Dark - Magearna, although Greninja/Hoopa-U can be a problem if they're given free turns
Ghost - Marowak can be an issue and so can the Jelli/Sab core to an small extent, but the type isn't that hard to wear down, especially because Dhelmise/Marowak have no recovery and nothing really isn't destroyed by the Magearna/Kartana core, and Mega Metagross is extremely hard to switch into. Bisharp/Doublade also exist.
Dragon - Magearna + Mega Meta (this matchup was trash even with zydog around), both get a kill whenever they get a free turn, unless you run Turtonator or Dragalge (in magearna's case, but it's not like dragalge can do anything)
Normal - Without the megas normal hasn't really been used much and I personally haven't tried the type, but Kartana seems very hard to stop after it gets a kill. And the rubber ducky has an insane chance of being 2hkoed by hammer arm after SR.
Fairy - Mega Metagross, the only problem being Koko, but nothing really switches in on Meta, Klefki comes in once (watch for Azumarill though, but Kartana can win if it has enough HP to tank a +6 AJ) 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 159-187 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ground - Skarmory + Kartana just plain win, and if by some miracle they don't, Mega Metagross and Magearna can finish the job with ice coverage, especially with zydog gone, with the only actual threats at this point being zyg-50%, lando and chomp, all that can be dealt with ice punch from meta.
Water - Kartana + Mega-Meta dealing with the few grass neutralities/Azu. Some mons like Keldeo and Volcanion are a pain for Steel though to switch into, but they should be.
Fighting - Mega-Meta kills something every time it comes in, with Magearna and Skarmory in the back
Electric - One of the hardest matchups for Steel, Voltturn spam is a problem (But well, something has to be, right?), and it's not like Steel can't run Excadrill
Fire - Probably the hardest matchup for Steel here, Heatran gets very overpressured and Zard X is sitting in the back, so yea.
Bug - Those mons dont have a big impact in this matchup from what i've seen.
I can have missed/exaggerated their effect in some matchups, especially because i've done these in a rush, but from that's just pretty clear how unhealthy the combination of those mons is to the metagame as a whole.

God, I suck at writing stuff. But just to finish this, I never asked for the council to ban them all, as much as i despise Mega Metagross being around in the metagame. I just feel like the type should be looked into more than it has been so far.

PS: I don't know if that's policy or something, but I'd definitely want to know who voted for what in each case (I'm not speaking for everyone though). I believe that in a tier that involve a community as big as ours, it'd be nice to a have a bigger transparency from the council so we can know where everyone's standing.

 

[stat1c]

As a user of ice, the standing of steel in the metagame is often what is on my mind the most whenever I'm in the teambuilder.

With my "fun" sets I somewhat looked forward to squaring off vs steel back in ORAS and even had a decent win-rate. The new tools in gen 7 changed that quickly. One test game victory did at least show me that I shouldn't click X at team preview even when Mega Metagross and Kartana are staring you down.

Re: the last round of quickbans, I too was suprised to see Tapu Lele go. First thought that crossed my mind: While nerfing Fairy and Psychic, doesn't this also inadvertently make Bisharp and Scizor steel builds more viable? Just my $0.02

 

[Vid]

As a user of ice, the standing of steel in the metagame is often what is on my mind the most whenever I'm in the teambuilder.

With my "fun" sets I somewhat looked forward to squaring off vs steel back in ORAS and even had a decent win-rate. The new tools in gen 7 changed that quickly. One test game victory did at least show me that I shouldn't click X at team preview even when Mega Metagross and Kartana are staring you down.

Re: the last round of quickbans, I too was suprised to see Tapu Lele go. First thought that crossed my mind: While nerfing Fairy and Psychic, doesn't this also inadvertently make Bisharp and Scizor steel builds more viable? Just my $0.02

Isn't that the same without them if they have Mega Scizor and Heatran. Even if Kartana and Mega Metagross get banned Ice is still going to lose to Steel banning those two won't help. To sum it up, Ice will never stand a chance against Steel period.

 

[Aparctias]

Vid, Heatran is not overly difficult to handle because it's slower than both Kyurem-Black and Mamoswine, and many variants are unable to seriously damage Piloswine (which regrettably I haven't had the chance to use this generation), Scizor does take a little more thought to handle and oftentimes something has to get knocked out for the decent checks to come in, but oftentimes if Kyurem-Black manages to come in against Mega Scizor then either Scizor is dying or the steel user has to decide which Pokemon they want to lose to it. Metagross is not quite that simple because they are both much faster than both Kyurem and Mamoswine, and Metagross' STAB of choice destroys Kyurem with little for Kyurem to do back but an Earth Power that does not kill. The pressure that Mega Scizor puts on ice should not be compared to the pressure that Mega Metagross puts on ice, as the steel user is more than welcome to just stay in on Kyurem-Black without consequence if they are running Mega Metagross, and against Mega Scizor they have to choose. The situation may perhaps be a little bit different now that Celesteela exists, but that does not change the fact that Mega Metagross is a much greater threat to the type than Mega Scizor. I will not say anything about Kartana as in the games I have had this generation, Kartana has not been too much of a problem.

Edit: I am not saying Mega Metagross is broken, I am simply commenting that Mega Metagross is much scarier for ice (at least in my opinion) than Mega Scizor, and steel was a much easier match up with Scizor than it is with Mega Metagross.

 

[stat1c]

Isn't that the same without them if they have Mega Scizor and Heatran. Even if Kartana and Mega Metagross get banned Ice is still going to lose to Steel banning those two won't help. To sum it up, Ice will never stand a chance against Steel period.

All I was trying to say is that that I found matches vs steel in ORAS interesting and looked forward to them but that all changed with the powerful new tools steel received in Gen 7. Not sure where you got the impression that I want them banned? I know quite well the lowly status of ice won't change anytime soon which is what makes it interesting trying to win against tough odds. It's just unfortunate that new additions like Kartana, Magearna and Mega Metagross changed those odds from tough to near impossible.

Also, I don't care much for absolutes, never is a long, long time: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-492911412

What I was really getting at is how steel seemed to reap the most benefit from the Tapu Lele ban, (Bisharp and Scizor) which seems unfortunate when much of the community thinks steel is so very strong right now, let alone the new gen 7 trio.

 

[Complicating]

I'm very glad Tapu Lele was unanimously banned. On both Psychic and Fairy mono, it just had too much power and or the amount of support it put out was invaluable to the point of some teams just rarely running priority imo.
In psychic terrain, the support psychic coverage gets can become a bit ridiculous let alone the power. These are just some examples of the power.
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 325-384 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 229-271 (61.2 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Celesteela: 164-193 (41.2 - 48.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 316-373 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I know those aren't really much, but just the raw power boost that psychic terrain grants psychic coverage can quickly become overwhelming for various teams and type matchups.

For Zydog, I'm a bit split on it. I think that it doesn't harm the metagame to the point that it hinders too many different types from being fair choice to use. It isn't bulky enough to bring straight into battle and it needs good support from its teammates to truly perform at its best. Again, I'm split on that decision because I understand it but I just feel like we could have waited a little longer to see how teams adjusted to and for ground mono. (Not sure how common it was on dragon mono).

The next pokemon I think we should bring up for discussion other than Zygarde 50%, is between Charizard Mega X and Y, Greninja, and Z weather moves. Whether they are brought up or not for serious discussion isn't up to me of course, but I'd definitely like to make a note of these things. Even though now there is a rule for megas to retain the same typing as the monotype they begin on, I don't really feel it changes much about Charizard X (possibly mega Altaria if its mega stone ever gets released). My issues with Zard X begin with fire mono. Charizard is the only pokemon available right now that has access to two separate mega evolutions. The first thing you can argue is that fire mono is weak to rocks. Though true, fire has a few fair ways of removing hazards as well as preventing them from going up via taunt or the extremely-rare-and-probably-shouldn't-be-mentioned-here-anyway magic coat. Regardless, the problem with Charizard is the fact that it now has absolutely no answers prior to mega evolution on fire monotype. It's unpredictable. Fire also now has a really great sun setting Torkoal, which can benefit next to Zard-Y by giving fire twice the amount of opportunities to get the sun up, which by the way is pretty useful against water mono and sand. The only other monotype that can viably run two mons with weather setting abilities is rock* (T-tar and Gigalith). For fire, that's honestly very helpful because it gives the STAB a big boost for free. But the catch is that fire is no longer limited to running just Zard Y (Houndoomite and Cameruptite are still unreleased) With Zard Y, monotype still found it quite difficult to counter, but much easier to check and wear down through stealth rocks. And back in ORAS, most fire mono teams relied on Zard Y to set the sun up. Now they also have Torkoal for that reason. What Charizard X does is completely different from Zard Y in the sense that it adds a layer of threat that is very very difficult for a lot of monotype teams to deal with. Having the ability to become either Zard Y or X can be a serious pain because it means there is no counter for it at all until it reveals which set it is. You can argue that we have answers in monotype, but that isn't necessarily true. You can run rock mono and have a terrible matchup against fire now just because your answer for Zard X can't be your answer to Zard Y and vice versa. You can have water mono, but your answers to each mega form will never be the same pokemon because they just do different things. Zard X becomes a problem in the fact that it does not require very much support to plow through teams. Even just knowing that your opponent could have Zard X or Y now on fire mono can force players to make odd plays they wouldn't normally make just because they want to prevent Zard from coming in or because they feel it could be coming in as a double. The element of surprise of course isn't so much that it is a metagame changer itself. That goes without saying. But that doesn't mean there isn't an influence. The ability to increase your speed with dragon dance can make zard X very difficult to check. There are also very few ways for a majority of monotypes to consistently check Zard X. What do you expect flying to do when Zard X has a boost under its belt? I'm not going to run my landorus-I with a scarf solely to check +1 Zard X because it gets very restricted into needing a choice scarf for that purpose. Sure I can bring lando-T as a solid Zard X answer, but that in no way helps me against Zard Y. It also becomes restrained in what it should be checking because I know for a fact that Landorus-T (and the incarnate form to an extent) is going to be needed to help check something else too. I'm not trying to argue that it is broken, but I strongly believe that we should take a look at Charizard X and consider what it does for fire monotype and how that can potentially change monotype or not.
*(water mono has Pelipper and Politoed, but running both of them together on a water monotype team isn't as beneficial for offense as it is in fire mono's case)

Greninja is another mon that returned to monotype, only this time with a new feature at its disposal: Battle Bond. I'm not under the impression that Battle Bond is better than Protean nor that Protean is better than Battle Bond. They have fairly equally threatening merits as an ability for Greninja. Greninja is available to dark and water monotype teams. What Greninja did in ORAS was essentially clean and break walls due to its amazing coverage, good power, and fantastic speed. Protean allows greninja to always use a STAB boosted move. Greninja is indeed frail, but it has a team behind it for support as well as an almost unpredictable moveset. Besides scarf users, there are only a handful of pokemon who can outspeed greninja. And for the mons who do outspeed, a lot of them are dependent on their respective monotype. I'm sure we all remember how Greninja was used and what it was capable of in ORAS prior to its ban. Those same things haven't changed too much for it. But now it has a new option at its disposal to cause problems with. I know battle bond does not give the immediate power that protean does, that's very obvious. But think about it like this: You've gotten something weakened from earlier in the battle that had to come in and revenge kill 'x' mon. Say non-protean greninja enters the fray and you know it isn't protean. You don't want to give it battle bond, but if you send in your best counter, it has to take a good amount of damage and may not ever be able to counter for you again. If keep your weakened thing in play to sack, Ash-Greninja makes its appearance and now has a gigantic power boost to the point it's even more threatening than protean. For monotype, this isn't a very simple and clear case to argue against because both abilities are greatly beneficial for greninja. Greninja's coverage is incredibly expansive and it has power behind its moves. Battle Bond can't have gunk shot unlike protean can. Okay, fine, but that doesn't change how versatile and threatening this Gen6 starter is. For monotype, one does not simply counter greninja. I just think that it shouldn't be something we ignore concerning monotype. From my experience in practice, life orb Battle Bond isn't as effective as choice specs, which is only that much harder to switch into even if I have to make the payment of being move locked. Specs also helps Greninja come closer to activating Battle Bond.

The thing I have to say about the Z weather moves is that they might actually be more dangerous in practice than on paper. Take Z sandstorm Garchomp or Z Rain dance Manaphy for instance. Weather is set and then a speed boost follows. 3 attacks or 2 attacks next to an added setup move can tear through an unprepared team very quickly. I haven't seen them used in practice yet, but I know that Darkrai's ban was greatly influenced by its Z Hypnosis set, which would act very similarly to the Z weather setting moves. Hasn't there also been some discussion over Z Hypnosis Xurkitree for similar reasons?

Just thought it would be nice to bring those up.

Some calcs for evidence

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mimikyu: 180-213 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(Battle Bond Active) 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mimikyu: 238-282 (94.8 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Battle Bond Active) 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 165-194 (51 - 60%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers Recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 144-171 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- 70.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Battle Bond Active) 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 192-226 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 192-228 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 164-194 (55.2 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 256-304 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 127-151 (36 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 127-150 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 142-168 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Surf vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed after stealth rock)
Essentially choice specs greninja is much more useful coupled with battle bond because it gives higher chances to activate while still breaking the opposing team down pretty well. Eventually after things have taken enough damage, battle bond will activate and then you have super greninja to deal with, which is very difficult later in the battle. I built a water mono team using that set and went 24-5 today. The calcs for Ash-Greninja are about 15% higher than the regular form. So keep that in mind. Of course there are things Greninja can't bust through, like Porygon2 or Chansey, but Greninja isn't alone on a team.

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 664-784 (164.3 - 194%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Tyranitar: 199-235 (49.3 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar: 228-272 (56.5 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (and it has to land and predict the move)
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 292-345 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 143-169 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Life Orb Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 351-413 (118.1 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 339-399 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Chansey never doesn't wall Charizard-Mega-Y from my knowledge.
Basically Charizard being able to use both megas can be much harder to deal with and we might want to consider looking at it while the metagame settles in. Problem is that monotype doesn't work like OU. :/

 

[smolteacup]

Re: Steel being overpowered

I'm not the best player myself, but I have watched nearly every replay from the kick off tournament that's happening now, and honestly steel's win rate has been ridiculous. I just went through all the replays from the second week and some from the first, and the only games steel lost were:

• to fire in the only fire/steel matchup
• to electric in a game that hinged on the lowest possible damage roll for steel
• to two ground teams
• to one fairy team ... congrats p2 that's amazing

And that's it. I just checked 6 pages of replays with at least 20 steel teams, and there were 5 losses (I wish I'd kept an exact win count, but I thought of it too late!). As for counters, steel beat ground much more than it lost, and beat water in each matchup. Never had to face fighting, but has some ways to win if it ever does. In neutral/advantageous matchups steel was basically undefeated, minus that one loss to fairy. In particular, it was matched up vs psychic more than any other type, and won every time.

(Also, this is a bit nitpicky, but the two ground teams that managed to beat steel were both running zydog which is not an option anymore.)

So ... yeah, honestly I'm not sure what you can do to beat it besides run fire or just run steel yourself. A lot of the teams that lost to it seemed to have prepared for the matchup, and it just doesn't matter. Maybe the experience playing high ladder is different from the tournament experience, but from a spectators perspective it seems almost uncompetitive in the tournie. Steel just has a massive advantage over nearly every type, and honestly most games involving it seem to be about whether the steel player will mess up.

 

[readyletsgo]

I'm not convinced electric just straight up handles steel. Actually I had a much easier time last gen against steel with electric. I have only been playing electric again this gen and most of the matches against steel seem to come down to two things:

50/50 games with choice scarf Excadrill, IE guess if he chooses EQ or Rock Slide, and either switch into a flyer and risk getting ko'd by rocks, or stay in on the bluff and hope they didn't click EQ. Each time you guess wrong your chances of winning go way down,

OR

You have your A-Raichu out during electric terrain, opposing an Exca. You hope they stay in and your focus blast hits. If you miss, you die.

While I have had a generally good success rate against steel on the ladder (I think), it's still incredibly challenging. I realize I am not much more than a slightly above average battler, so take it for what it's worth. Here is a replay showing what I mean.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495283678

I do think steel is overpowered right now. I realize it's a dilemma figuring out which elements are the worst offenders since it's the combination of what is available that makes steel so hard to face, but we have a lot of people here and I hope more posts regarding it will follow. I'm sure we will see some action taken over the next few weeks.

 

[Moosical]

So I've been laddering tonight with Magearna on fairy type in an effort to see how effective it is as a potential mid-late game sweeper. I've been using the following set (inspired by The Excadrill's post here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/monotype-creative-underrated-sets.3588718/#post-7119183)

set

Magearna @ Steelium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Aura Sphere
- Trick Room
- Flash Cannon
- Thunderbolt

I think the trick room set works very nicely on fairy type for a couple of different reasons. This works very perfectly for magearna because it has very decent bulk of 80/115/115, and with the trick room set you get to run max HP evs, giving even more bulk, while being able to run +SpA nature. It's a great anti-meta as you're guaranteed to "outspeed" near everything in the meta while it's up. To add to your bulk, you have the support of dual screens klefki. Eight turns of screens gives you a lot of wiggle room, being able to tank a fair number of hits (this goes for most mons on my team), while starting to snowball. This is notably different than the shift gear set as you get the additional bulk, and you don't have to worry about any scarfers that may still outspeed you. A max speed, +2 magearna only reaches 502 speed, meaning you're still outsped by the swift swim and surge surfers mons, and any scarfer with >103 base speed. Notable mons would be speed tying with scarf nihilego, and then losing to +1 m-sharpedo, and scarf variants of keldeo, terrakion, infernape, kartana, and latios (just for reference regardless of if these threaten magearna). I would like to mention here that trick room magearna works as a pretty good soft kartana check. While it's obviously not a switchin (unless they're locked into leaf blade), you're able to revenge-trick room after one of your mons die, without having to worry about if they're scarf or not (if you havent' figured it out in the match yet), as the shift gear variant cannot set up on scarf kartana at all. The bulk also provides a notable difference vs choice band kartana, as well. Unfortunately, the SD variant still destroys either version of magearna, assuming that your reflect is gone.

Calcs

Trick Room Set
+1 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 195-231 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 292-345 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Shift Gear Set
+1 252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 195-231 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 294-346 (97.3 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Quick mentions about the set. Aura sphere is pretty necessary for the set simply because of all the steel types running around at the moment. It allows magearna to nab some great ko's while under trick room, and snowball while fighting steel type teams with the only things stopping aura sphere being celesteela, skarmory, and doublade. This is where thunderbolt comes in, giving you much better coverage than an ice beam set (which I was using in the replays to follow). Flash cannon is great for general stab, and hits opposing magearna's very well. Finally, steelium z is there for a decent wall-breaker, allowing you to get a nice KO that you may not have gotten with your general coverage, starting the snowball.

More Calcs

Skarmory
252+ SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 128-151 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 288-340 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

SpD Celesteela
252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 154-182 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Take with a grain of salt on this one because you'd have to consider leech seed + protect antics, probably the biggest threat to my magearna set before boosts.

Mega-Metagross
252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 100-118 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 149-176 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Magearna: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Shift Gear Magearna
252+ SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 127-151 (42.1 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Magearna Corkscrew Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 255-301 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO - Returning fire from the opposing set

After playing through a fair number of ladder matches, I don't think I would call it over-powered at the current state (keeping in mind I'm playing with magearna on fairy, not on steel, so it's not the best comparison). Based off of my battles, it very easily mows over rock and ice teams (funny how a lot of potential-bans do this, huh), while providing a good win condition vs steel type that I otherwise wouldn't have. Granted the steel match-up is extremely heavily weighted towards the steel player (they shouldn't lose unless they misplay), there's a flicker of hope. Trick room magearna is also decently-easily stopped. It can't use trick room vs. just any mons, and before it gets its boosts, it's not the strongest mon in the world. Notably being pretty useless vs fire type, and not very useful versus electric type and poison type (m-venu...). I can't say much for all of the types, and as you can tell, this post is mostly about fairy vs. steel. This is majorly due to the ladder being flooded with steel types at the moment. (I think I saw the same exact steel team of heatran, scarfexcadrill, m-meta, magearna, kartana, and skarm/celesteela at least 25 times, all from various players). I can't say anything about how this magearna set is vs types like water, flying, grass, ground etc, as I didn't see any on the ladder tonight. I hope to get some replays of those match-ups in the coming days, and can edit the post if I get anything of note. So, here's some replays of what I saw on ladder tonight. Obviously only posting ones where magearna did its job, and keep in mind, again, that I was using ice beam instead of thunderbolt in these replays.

Replays

Rock
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495235588
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495238766

Dark
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495264295

Fairy
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495268467

Psychic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495279206
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495302163

Steel
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495248707
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495256763
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-495294848 (there's did more than mine did in this match)