Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Kilgrave]

Why are you even using Room Polls as an argument? They're subjective as hell, People don't think about what they click, and the biggest nonsense-users can vote for them. They're not a good way to show what 'the community thinks', and neither is it a valid or convincing argument, at all. I don't think many people will be convinced by any of your arguments, they'd rather read a convincing post with actual content, telling people why they think the Pokemon discussed at that time is overcentralizing, unhealthy, or just flat out broken. Showing calcs and/or replays also helps, but not a Room Poll, lol. You should know better @_@

I think you are misunderstanding what the point of the post was. It was not to show off the room poll, and it was not about the poll itself. I was talking about the mon and I was just trying to clear up some misconceptions about it because there were some. Maybe next time you might want to check the whole post before assuming you know what I've written.

Maybe I was wrong about the whole room poll thing, but I feel like that was the only thing you looked at before posting this. If it makes you happy, I took the room poll out of my post, but it wasn't that important to it anyway, so I don't really care.

 

[ScorpionZ]

I know this replay doesnt show much but kartana with webs up kind of just destroys psychic ... the only known sash mons the type have are alakazam and azelf really. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/azure-gen7pokebankubers-42883

 

[TheAce22]

Kartana is far slower, and it has a quad weakness. The health is just barely better, so any viable poke with a fire move can take it down in seconds.

The Pokemon that Kartana is being compared to here is Deoxys. Yes, it is slower, but base 109 shouldn't under be underestimated. The HP stat of Kartana is not its problem, it's its Special Defense. And I'm not even joking, but the only Fire mon naturally faster than Kartana is Mega Houndoom, which is currently unavaliable. Of course, there's scarfers, such as Victini, and I've been lucky not to run into one yet, but this person is right in saying pretty much any Fire attack will kill it. Lastly, this person should be reminded that the 'quad weakness' is Kartana's only weakness, and if it always dies from it then its not really a big deal.

That being said, with an easy counter ever-present, Beast-Boost shouldn't matter.

What? Now you tell me where that Water team from one of my replays from before (here) had a counter, which basically, from this person's perspective, is a Fire type. Also, Beast Boost doesn't matter? In the replay from before, I wouldn't have won without Beast Boost, as I wouldn't have been able to kill the Toxapex.

Another person said:

with its bad special defense anything can kill it pretty much

Then I plucked up the courage to make my first ever post in the monotype room:

TOAOKilgrave: base 131 defense says hi

To which they said:
base 31 special defense says hi a lot louder though.

That's not the point! Not everything can kill it. I'll keep referring to my replay from before, a Liquidation from a Toxapex did all of 11% (although Toxapex offenses are awful), while a Staraptor's Close Combat failed to kill it.

And then last, and definitely least, this same person said:

people make it sound like kartana is guaranteed to get a kill and sweep whenever it enters the field but it doesn't have the movepool to make that happen.

*facepalm

Instead of going on forums and making a post to clear up misconceptions of people who seem new and more than likely don't use forums why don't you maybe respond to the person? For ex: 'Beast Boost doesn't matter.' You see, OBVIOUSLY Beast Boost does matter and I don't see why you feel necessary to explain this to us rather than actually explain it to the person in question.

Also why is Kartana being compared to Deo??

 

[Kilgrave]

Also why is Kartana being compared to Deo??

That was just happening on the mono room I wasn't involved in that conversation in any way.

 

[lskildum]

I think your missing some key distinctions between these two Pokemon because you aren't really looking at what they do for their given types. Gonna use ORAS Kyu-B as reference since Ice and Dragon aren't exactly prominent thus far this gen. Kyurem-B gives Ice a Solid Physical or Mixed attacked with access to Earth Power, Fusion Bolt, and a 120 STAB option that immensely help that type. On Dragon it offers access to a Physical, Special, or Mixed Attacker as well as the option of Bulky Roost. It also helps Dragon to hold a rather large advantage over Flying (one of, if not the best type of ORAS) while being a godsend in ditto matchups, as well as Grass, and Ground, which can be a pretty annoying matchup without. And, unlike its counterpart, Kyurem-W, it doesn't have the ability to completely dismantle weakness matchups, i.e. Ice v. Steel and Dragon v. Steel or Dragon v. Ice matchups. For Kyurem-B, it was not that difficult to find ways to counteract its noticeably ridiculous offensive potential because its moveset has good coverage, yes, but it is by no means diverse. Once you can decipher what item and stat spread a kyu-b is you can pretty easily predict the rest of its moves. Most of the time you can pretty much do this at Turn 0 just by judging the opponent's team comp, unless they're just running a team of off-sets. Kyu-B does get Hone Claws, but being realistic, there's pretty much no reason to run it since nothing beyond like Focus Blast needs boosted accuracy and because it'd be better to just have more coverage or to fully utilize your spread. Kyu-B also has Teravolt so it serves a bit of a different roll than Kartana, who is basically a Set-Up sweeper either directly through SD or indirectly through Beast Boost.

Now, with Kartana, how it functions is a bit different from Kyu-B. Looking at its two types, Grass and Steel, what exactly does it have to offer? Grass now has an incredibly fast, physical threat that gives the type a great option for managing both Ice and Poison. Thus far, it seems to be used as a cleaner for some of ORAS Balance Grass's big threats as well as the key to giving Grass the opportunity of having use as an HO build. On Steel, however, it greatly tips the scales in matchups that should be either neutral or disadvantaged for the type. For example, in the Steel v. Water matchup, assuming the Kartana set is scarf, there are not that many switchins to handling it's outrageous damage output besides heavily invested Toxapex and Sap Sipper Azumarill. Pelipper would be a check, if it weren't 2HKO'd after Rocks, and if you were completely invested in Physical Def. Plus, if you dont' run Sap Sipper Azu or can't outspeed and kill scarf Kartana at +1, you just lose. Unless you get a burn on your only Scald chance before getting 2HKO'd, but here's too Scald Burn luck, right? Moving on to Ground. Honestly, the discussion about how Kartana matches up against Ground kind of reminds me of the perspective of people with regards to Mega Sableye in its first suspect test. A lot of the arguments against Kartana jsut flat out decimating Ground teams is that you can run extremely limiting and specific sets on your Pokemon to beat it. That's like arguing how because Mega Ampharos has Mold Breaker + Toxic and you can run Guts Band Luxray, that Electric can at least manage Mega Sableye. Tankchomp, Bulky Landorus, and Gliscor can take two scarf leaf blades but you need to realize, Gliscor is the only one of those Pokemon that has recovery beyond leftovers and no sane person is going to just leave in their Kartana against these Pokemon unless they have the potential to 2HKO. Also, Leaf Blade is in fact high crit chance (please don't start the 12.5%, 25%, 30% bs), so your designated check to Scarf Kartana isn't even guaranteed. And yes, scarf Zydog can outspeed and kill Kartana, but honestly, running scarf over band is a terrible choice and if that isn't the description of something being over-centralizing, then I must need to rethink these matchups. Fire Kartana doesn't really do anything since it has no supereffective coverage, but its speed tier and damage can be annoying for the type to handle. Scarf Kartana outspeeds everything on fighting bar hawlucha and it has good physical bulk, so good luck getting those mach punch KOs. In Steel advantaged matchups, scarf Kartana pretty just decimates the opposing teams bar like Avalugg, Magearna, and Klefki. Obviously Band and LO sets kind of run through these matchups, and shake's Steelium Z spread pretty much 6-0s. Also, Kartana's movepool has everything that it needs to support its types, so the fact that it's limited doesn't really make a difference.

You overestimate Kartana. A properly prepared team is not generally swept by Kartana (with the exception of maybe Rock). Those "bars" are rather important. Anything that can tank a hit from Kartana probably should. Have you not read what other people have posted? Kartana often LACKS the power it needs to sweep a team under scarf, unless the opponant does not play smart and sends in a Poke that can tank/outspeed and beat me, and yes, even with a Scarf, things can still outspeed it, namely every scarf 110 speed and up. And yes, those things do exist, and no, they are not rarities. I saw them taking hold last generation nearer towards the end. Scarf Gengar, Scarf Eon Twins, etc. Outspeeding even a Kartana is not impossible, infact, its not even hard. I mean, how common is the Tapu Koko/Alola Raichu combo?? Cloyster with a Sash eats any attack, Smashes, then attacks right back with Icicle Crash and KO's right back while outspeeding (if Jolly nature) with Icicle Crash. Kartana can't stop a sash, Kartana can be outsped, Kartana can be slaughtered (you seen his SpD?). In fact, one of my previous posts explained how Water can handle Kartana without Sap Sipper, as that is the type people seem to be the most worried about with regard to Kartana. Like I said there too, people may just have to get creative, which would make for an interesting ladder to battle.

 

[iLlama]

You overestimate Kartana. A properly prepared team is not generally swept by Kartana (with the exception of maybe Rock). Those "bars" are rather important. Anything that can tank a hit from Kartana probably should. Have you not read what other people have posted? Kartana often LACKS the power it needs to sweep a team under scarf, unless the opponant does not play smart and sends in a Poke that can tank/outspeed and beat me, and yes, even with a Scarf, things can still outspeed it, namely every scarf 110 speed and up. And yes, those things do exist, and no, they are not rarities. I saw them taking hold last generation nearer towards the end. Scarf Gengar, Scarf Eon Twins, etc. Outspeeding even a Kartana is not impossible, infact, its not even hard. I mean, how common is the Tapu Koko/Alola Raichu combo?? Cloyster with a Sash eats any attack, Smashes, then attacks right back with Icicle Crash and KO's right back while outspeeding (if Jolly nature) with Icicle Crash. Kartana can't stop a sash, Kartana can be outsped, Kartana can be slaughtered (you seen his SpD?). In fact, one of my previous posts explained how Water can handle Kartana without Sap Sipper, as that is the type people seem to be the most worried about with regard to Kartana. Like I said there too, people may just have to get creative, which would make for an interesting ladder to battle.

Ok, I understand that you're probably pretty new to Monotype, let alone competitive Pokemon, but please don't just write out a bunch of information that is not only completely incorrect, but that carries practically 0 relevance.

Oh, and next time you try to call someone out, you probably shouldn't mention Icicle Crash Cloyster, because you just thoroughly invalidated your argument.

 

[Moosical]

You overestimate Kartana. A properly prepared team is not generally swept by Kartana (with the exception of maybe Rock). Those "bars" are rather important. Anything that can tank a hit from Kartana probably should. Have you not read what other people have posted? Kartana often LACKS the power it needs to sweep a team under scarf, unless the opponant does not play smart and sends in a Poke that can tank/outspeed and beat me, and yes, even with a Scarf, things can still outspeed it, namely every scarf 110 speed and up. And yes, those things do exist, and no, they are not rarities. I saw them taking hold last generation nearer towards the end. Scarf Gengar, Scarf Eon Twins, etc. Outspeeding even a Kartana is not impossible, infact, its not even hard. I mean, how common is the Tapu Koko/Alola Raichu combo?? Cloyster with a Sash eats any attack, Smashes, then attacks right back with Icicle Crash and KO's right back while outspeeding (if Jolly nature) with Icicle Crash. Kartana can't stop a sash, Kartana can be outsped, Kartana can be slaughtered (you seen his SpD?). In fact, one of my previous posts explained how Water can handle Kartana without Sap Sipper, as that is the type people seem to be the most worried about with regard to Kartana. Like I said there too, people may just have to get creative, which would make for an interesting ladder to battle.

You're talking as if kartana exists in a bubble. Yes, all of those things you mention can beat kartana in a 1v1 situation, but, steel has a huge number of things to switch in on those threats, remove the kartana threat, then sweep with kartana. I'm sure you meant icicle spear cloyster, not icicle crash, but, steel teams have a huge number of switch-ins to cloyster, both icicle spear and rock blast hitting at best neutral, and hydro pump being your last move is also easily blocked. Also, yes, any scarf mon can outspeed the average kartana, but again, steel has plenty of switch-ins that would deal with it easily. In reference to your last sentence "people would have to get creative to deal with kartana" that's literally over-centralizing the meta, which is what the ban list tries to prevent. The average water team will plainly not be able to beat scarf kartana, even with sap sipper azumarill (as you'd just wait for the opportunity where azumarill is dead, then sweep with kartana), and if you're making people run sets that they otherwise wouldn't run, just for kartana, that's limiting the meta. Yes, steel already has a pretty easy time with types like rock, ice, and fairy who plainly cannot beat scarf kartana when you combine it with steel's other mons. But, kartana also plainly can sweep types that steel has trouble with typically such as water, and ground, which is the problem.

In my opinion, you're looking at kartana very shallowly, and need to consider how it'd likely be beaten in a real-world situation, and not just on paper.

Edit: Completely unrelated, but, stat1c wanted me to mention to the forum that z-moves are still able to be used through encore. I.e. if you encore a mon into toxic, they can still use a z-attack (I believe). I'll post a replay if he manages to find me one.

 

[Shu Hasegawa]

You overestimate Kartana. A properly prepared team is not generally swept by Kartana (with the exception of maybe Rock). Those "bars" are rather important. Anything that can tank a hit from Kartana probably should. Have you not read what other people have posted? Kartana often LACKS the power it needs to sweep a team under scarf, unless the opponant does not play smart and sends in a Poke that can tank/outspeed and beat me, and yes, even with a Scarf, things can still outspeed it, namely every scarf 110 speed and up. And yes, those things do exist, and no, they are not rarities. I saw them taking hold last generation nearer towards the end. Scarf Gengar, Scarf Eon Twins, etc. Outspeeding even a Kartana is not impossible, infact, its not even hard. I mean, how common is the Tapu Koko/Alola Raichu combo?? Cloyster with a Sash eats any attack, Smashes, then attacks right back with Icicle Crash and KO's right back while outspeeding (if Jolly nature) with Icicle Crash. Kartana can't stop a sash, Kartana can be outsped, Kartana can be slaughtered (you seen his SpD?). In fact, one of my previous posts explained how Water can handle Kartana without Sap Sipper, as that is the type people seem to be the most worried about with regard to Kartana. Like I said there too, people may just have to get creative, which would make for an interesting ladder to battle.

You act like Kartana is a easy 'Mon to beat, then it kicks your ass because you're taking it lightly. I mean come on, how many times have you faced Kartana to jump to this conclusion? BTW Kartana would obliterate Icicle Crash Cloyster (And before you say "Shut the hell up competetive noob" I've been in the scene since BW)

 

[BlackJak]

Hello everyone! I decided to share my thoughts on some Pokemon that I've been trying to play with recently as well as give my thoughts on other pokemon in this early form of Sun and Moon Monotype. I'm gonna already apologize in advance for my potential shit analysis on the game as I don't play as much so I don't know weather my stuff will be accurate or not. I will be doing a quick overview on these Mons as well as sharing my thoughts about them. First up...

Kartana specializes in attacking and speed alone, as it boasts 181 Attack, which is literally one point higher than Deoxys-Attack and Mega Rayquaza, and has a good speed tier of 109, max reaching to 349 which outspends Keldeo, Infernape, and the other fighting dog legendarys, as well as some nice defense to it. It's movepool is pretty decent besides the amazing stab it gets such as Leaf Blade and Smart Strike, as it can utilize Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Sacred Sword, and can potentially use a Scarf, Band, or Orb Set. Beast Boost can either give it a free moxie, or a free speed boost depending on main stat it's focused on. The reason I'm listing out these it to provide a general idea of Kartana, and state that while it's Physical offense is really good, I don't really think it should be banned for some reasons. First, I believe that on Grass and Steel, it provides the types and makes way for new team building as well as shifts the pace on both of these types. Steel in Gen 6 was a well known type that could go on Balanced or Hyper Offensive, which it still can go through today I think, but I believe that Kartana, Mega Metagross, and Celestela all force a more offensive build toward Steel's typical build last year, and leads to more offense. The same concept goes to grass, as Grass was balanced as well, and while it did have some Physical Attackers that worked well for what they did and their slow speed tiers, being Breloom and Shiftry, I think that Kartana + Tapu Bulu, both enforce a more offensive grass build, and they both get usage because they compliment each other a lot through Grassy Terrain and Kartana's amazing speed. However while Kartana's offensive capabilities are amazing, I still think that most types have some sort of counter or check to them, the ones that don't would be Water(which could vary if Scarf set since it's weaker and locked in and Toxapex is a really good Pokemon) and Ice depending on the set. I think that Kartana is an amazing pokemon who can capitalize well on picking off kills for Beast Boosts or just outright killing mons in general depending on the set. Night Slash for ghosts, boosted Leaf Blade for huge stab on Grass, Sacred Sword for steel, etc. However it's uh, kinda sorta not really a glass cannon because of it's HP stat and it's Special Defense Stat. Despite this, while I love this mon, I would rather wait and let it stay for now to see where it stands in the metagame, as it's not a Quickban overpowered moveset abusing worst Beast Booster like Phermosa, or a Quickban like Genesect.

Honestly why does everyone want this banned? It's not as strong as everyone makes it out to be. Zygarde%10, or Zydog for short, is a really cool looking Pokemon, but when you look at it's stats, it's kind of not that great. Attack is decent with base 100, capitalizing at 328 at Adamant, speed is excellent, capitalizing at 361 Jolly. When I looked at Zydog, I instantly found a resemblance to Flygon because of it's Attack stat, which really separates it. Zydog can run two sets, a banded one and a dragon Dance one, but since most people right now use Banded, we'll use that for now. The problem with Zydog is it has to sacrifice one stat for the other, if you want power you sacrifice speed, and vice versa. Ground has some speed Pokemon being Landorus-Incarnate and Garchomp, and ultimately lose to much faster things like Thundurus, and Keldeo. Zydog has an amazing speed tier that helps ground get the edge in battle against much faster mons. However, it's other stats besides Speed and attack are terrible. It's HP is cut in half compared to Zygarde Normal, and it's defenses are worse than Zygarde Normal. But the main reason why I believe people are freaking out about Zydog is thousand arrows, which hits flying Mons and negates levitate and Air Balloon. It honestly dosent even matter, because even before in Gen 6, ground was hitting Flying, Electric, and Levitating mons because of Landoruos Gravity, so even if Zydog was somehow banned, the fact that Ground still would be beating Electric still would remain, and Ground would shift from teams unique with Zydog to Generic Gen 6 Ground Sand Sand Rush Teams with possibly 1 Gen 7 mon on it, which the team it's self is still good, but Ground loses variety. People should just accept the fact that either way, with or without Thousand Arrows, Ground will always find a way around Flying, Levitation Mons, Electric, and Air Balloon. Banning this mon would only make Ground go a bit backwards in terms of team building this Gen. This mon shouldn't even be banned at all lmao.


I was gonna do more mons but maybe later as I'm lazy and tired and I can't find the 3d models of them even though the 2d ones look cool hahahelp

 

[lskildum]

You act like Kartana is a easy 'Mon to beat, then it kicks your ass because you're taking it lightly. I mean come on, how many times have you faced Kartana to jump to this conclusion? BTW Kartana would obliterate Icicle Crash Cloyster (And before you say "Shut the hell up competetive noob" I've been in the scene since BW)

I ran the numbers and saw it work out. If Kartana can hit Cloyster, sure, it destroys it. But its still a speed thing. Kartana is actually quite slow considering all of the speed boosting things we have (Swift Swim, Slush Rush, you know what I mean).

Hello everyone! I decided to share my thoughts on some Pokemon that I've been trying to play with recently as well as give my thoughts on other pokemon in this early form of Sun and Moon Monotype. I'm gonna already apologize in advance for my potential shit analysis on the game as I don't play as much so I don't know weather my stuff will be accurate or not. I will be doing a quick overview on these Mons as well as sharing my thoughts about them. First up...

Kartana specializes in attacking and speed alone, as it boasts 181 Attack, which is literally one point higher than Deoxys-Attack and Mega Rayquaza, and has a good speed tier of 109, max reaching to 349 which outspends Keldeo, Infernape, and the other fighting dog legendarys, as well as some nice defense to it. It's movepool is pretty decent besides the amazing stab it gets such as Leaf Blade and Smart Strike, as it can utilize Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Sacred Sword, and can potentially use a Scarf, Band, or Orb Set. Beast Boost can either give it a free moxie, or a free speed boost depending on main stat it's focused on. The reason I'm listing out these it to provide a general idea of Kartana, and state that while it's Physical offense is really good, I don't really think it should be banned for some reasons. First, I believe that on Grass and Steel, it provides the types and makes way for new team building as well as shifts the pace on both of these types. Steel in Gen 6 was a well known type that could go on Balanced or Hyper Offensive, which it still can go through today I think, but I believe that Kartana, Mega Metagross, and Celestela all force a more offensive build toward Steel's typical build last year, and leads to more offense. The same concept goes to grass, as Grass was balanced as well, and while it did have some Physical Attackers that worked well for what they did and their slow speed tiers, being Breloom and Shiftry, I think that Kartana + Tapu Bulu, both enforce a more offensive grass build, and they both get usage because they compliment each other a lot through Grassy Terrain and Kartana's amazing speed. However while Kartana's offensive capabilities are amazing, I still think that most types have some sort of counter or check to them, the ones that don't would be Water(which could vary if Scarf set since it's weaker and locked in and Toxapex is a really good Pokemon) and Ice depending on the set. I think that Kartana is an amazing pokemon who can capitalize well on picking off kills for Beast Boosts or just outright killing mons in general depending on the set. Night Slash for ghosts, boosted Leaf Blade for huge stab on Grass, Sacred Sword for steel, etc. However it's uh, kinda sorta not really a glass cannon because of it's HP stat and it's Special Defense Stat. Despite this, while I love this mon, I would rather wait and let it stay for now to see where it stands in the metagame, as it's not a Quickban overpowered moveset abusing worst Beast Booster like Phermosa, or a Quickban like Genesect.

Honestly why does everyone want this banned? It's not as strong as everyone makes it out to be. Zygarde%10, or Zydog for short, is a really cool looking Pokemon, but when you look at it's stats, it's kind of not that great. Attack is decent with base 100, capitalizing at 328 at Adamant, speed is excellent, capitalizing at 361 Jolly. When I looked at Zydog, I instantly found a resemblance to Flygon because of it's Attack stat, which really separates it. Zydog can run two sets, a banded one and a dragon Dance one, but since most people right now use Banded, we'll use that for now. The problem with Zydog is it has to sacrifice one stat for the other, if you want power you sacrifice speed, and vice versa. Ground has some speed Pokemon being Landorus-Incarnate and Garchomp, and ultimately lose to much faster things like Thundurus, and Keldeo. Zydog has an amazing speed tier that helps ground get the edge in battle against much faster mons. However, it's other stats besides Speed and attack are terrible. It's HP is cut in half compared to Zygarde Normal, and it's defenses are worse than Zygarde Normal. But the main reason why I believe people are freaking out about Zydog is thousand arrows, which hits flying Mons and negates levitate and Air Balloon. It honestly dosent even matter, because even before in Gen 6, ground was hitting Flying, Electric, and Levitating mons because of Landoruos Gravity, so even if Zydog was somehow banned, the fact that Ground still would be beating Electric still would remain, and Ground would shift from teams unique with Zydog to Generic Gen 6 Ground Sand Sand Rush Teams with possibly 1 Gen 7 mon on it, which the team it's self is still good, but Ground loses variety. People should just accept the fact that either way, with or without Thousand Arrows, Ground will always find a way around Flying, Levitation Mons, Electric, and Air Balloon. Banning this mon would only make Ground go a bit backwards in terms of team building this Gen. This mon shouldn't even be banned at all lmao.


I was gonna do more mons but maybe later as I'm lazy and tired and I can't find the 3d models of them even though the 2d ones look cool hahahelp

This is exactly the point I am arguing as well. However, Water also has ways to take it out too, as does Ice (though Ice does have a harder time considering Sacred Sword AND Smart Strike). I have a basic Ice team, and I knew off the bat that Scizor was going to be a huge problem. So I sashed my Ninetails and gave it HP Fire, and that generally handles the issues I have with Scizor. Kartana would go down even quicker. Not to mention, Sashed Ninetails has other utility in guaranteeing an Aurora Veil. Though, I still believe Ice has a harder time with Scizor, not with Kartana, because of the priority and Swords Dance. Smart Strike is only 10 BP Higher than a Technician Scizor's Bullet Punch.

I may look at Kartana kind of shallowly, but I use it. I have seen the lack of power in the Scarf set prior to getting a +2, and I've seen the lack of speed in the Band set. Kartana is fantastic, but it is not broken.

 

[Dece1t]

Hello everyone! I decided to share my thoughts on some Pokemon that I've been trying to play with recently as well as give my thoughts on other pokemon in this early form of Sun and Moon Monotype. I'm gonna already apologize in advance for my potential shit analysis on the game as I don't play as much so I don't know weather my stuff will be accurate or not. I will be doing a quick overview on these Mons as well as sharing my thoughts about them. First up...

Kartana specializes in attacking and speed alone, as it boasts 181 Attack, which is literally one point higher than Deoxys-Attack and Mega Rayquaza, and has a good speed tier of 109, max reaching to 349 which outspends Keldeo, Infernape, and the other fighting dog legendarys, as well as some nice defense to it. It's movepool is pretty decent besides the amazing stab it gets such as Leaf Blade and Smart Strike, as it can utilize Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Sacred Sword, and can potentially use a Scarf, Band, or Orb Set. Beast Boost can either give it a free moxie, or a free speed boost depending on main stat it's focused on. The reason I'm listing out these it to provide a general idea of Kartana, and state that while it's Physical offense is really good, I don't really think it should be banned for some reasons. First, I believe that on Grass and Steel, it provides the types and makes way for new team building as well as shifts the pace on both of these types. Steel in Gen 6 was a well known type that could go on Balanced or Hyper Offensive, which it still can go through today I think, but I believe that Kartana, Mega Metagross, and Celestela all force a more offensive build toward Steel's typical build last year, and leads to more offense. The same concept goes to grass, as Grass was balanced as well, and while it did have some Physical Attackers that worked well for what they did and their slow speed tiers, being Breloom and Shiftry, I think that Kartana + Tapu Bulu, both enforce a more offensive grass build, and they both get usage because they compliment each other a lot through Grassy Terrain and Kartana's amazing speed. However while Kartana's offensive capabilities are amazing, I still think that most types have some sort of counter or check to them, the ones that don't would be Water(which could vary if Scarf set since it's weaker and locked in and Toxapex is a really good Pokemon) and Ice depending on the set. I think that Kartana is an amazing pokemon who can capitalize well on picking off kills for Beast Boosts or just outright killing mons in general depending on the set. Night Slash for ghosts, boosted Leaf Blade for huge stab on Grass, Sacred Sword for steel, etc. However it's uh, kinda sorta not really a glass cannon because of it's HP stat and it's Special Defense Stat. Despite this, while I love this mon, I would rather wait and let it stay for now to see where it stands in the metagame, as it's not a Quickban overpowered moveset abusing worst Beast Booster like Phermosa, or a Quickban like Genesect.

Honestly why does everyone want this banned? It's not as strong as everyone makes it out to be. Zygarde%10, or Zydog for short, is a really cool looking Pokemon, but when you look at it's stats, it's kind of not that great. Attack is decent with base 100, capitalizing at 328 at Adamant, speed is excellent, capitalizing at 361 Jolly. When I looked at Zydog, I instantly found a resemblance to Flygon because of it's Attack stat, which really separates it. Zydog can run two sets, a banded one and a dragon Dance one, but since most people right now use Banded, we'll use that for now. The problem with Zydog is it has to sacrifice one stat for the other, if you want power you sacrifice speed, and vice versa. Ground has some speed Pokemon being Landorus-Incarnate and Garchomp, and ultimately lose to much faster things like Thundurus, and Keldeo. Zydog has an amazing speed tier that helps ground get the edge in battle against much faster mons. However, it's other stats besides Speed and attack are terrible. It's HP is cut in half compared to Zygarde Normal, and it's defenses are worse than Zygarde Normal. But the main reason why I believe people are freaking out about Zydog is thousand arrows, which hits flying Mons and negates levitate and Air Balloon. It honestly dosent even matter, because even before in Gen 6, ground was hitting Flying, Electric, and Levitating mons because of Landoruos Gravity, so even if Zydog was somehow banned, the fact that Ground still would be beating Electric still would remain, and Ground would shift from teams unique with Zydog to Generic Gen 6 Ground Sand Sand Rush Teams with possibly 1 Gen 7 mon on it, which the team it's self is still good, but Ground loses variety. People should just accept the fact that either way, with or without Thousand Arrows, Ground will always find a way around Flying, Levitation Mons, Electric, and Air Balloon. Banning this mon would only make Ground go a bit backwards in terms of team building this Gen. This mon shouldn't even be banned at all lmao.


I was gonna do more mons but maybe later as I'm lazy and tired and I can't find the 3d models of them even though the 2d ones look cool hahahelp

I agree entirely with everything you said, but I want to emphasize your last point, because I really do think Zydog is being overhyped. Even w/o Thousand Arrows Ground has multiple ways to reliably get around mons immune to Ground, whether it'd be typing, ability, or item. The only type completely immune to Geound, as everyone probably knows, is Flying. Luckily, Mamoswine can easily threaten it, especially now that Mega Gyarados is no longer usable! With powerful Ice STAB and Ice priority, Skarmory is really the only reliable switch in at most times, and that can also be checked by (Mega) Garchomp, Landorus, and now Zydog (once it's first grounded). As for most levitate users, as you can imagine it varies what types they're on, but the main examples I can think of this second is Lati@s, Rotom, and Hydreigon. 2/3 of these common threats are Dragon type, which Mamoswine can also handle, but Rotom is a special exception. The best way I'd say to check that would be Seismitoad, especially with Sludge Bomb. Granted these are only 1v1 situations, but it shows Ground has very usable tools to pressure Pokemon that T-Arrows quote on quote completely destroys. 100 Attack, especially neutral, is not as strong as people are making it out to be, and that's what Zydog has to sacrifice in order to reach the amazing speed tier it can reach, and it is one of only a very limited handful of Pokemon to have an instantly good speed tier (as in without the aid of Sandstorm or a Choice Scarf). It's really cool, but seriously, it is by no means ban worthy and it's power is being exaggerated.

 

[Arash]

^the problem with this argument is that nobody is arguing that ground cannot beat flying or levitate mons. Rather, the problem is that ground and dragon with thousand arrows is a nearly unwinnable matchup for types like electric, rock and poison. If zydog is in vs something slower on these types, there is no counter play as something is going to eat a boosted ground attack and die, regardless of how well you built your team.

Yes, there are ways that those teams can beat it (like sash aurorus or something lame) but this is the same reason talonflme got banned in early gen6...

 

[Dece1t]

^the problem with this argument is that nobody is arguing that ground cannot beat flying or levitate mons. Rather, the problem is that ground and dragon with thousand arrows is a nearly unwinnable matchup for types like electric, rock and poison. If zydog is in vs something slower on these types, there is no counter play as something is going to eat a boosted ground attack and die, regardless of how well you built your team.

Yes, there are ways that those teams can beat it (like sash aurorus or something lame) but this is the same reason talonflme got banned in early gen6...

You do realize though that Ground easily wins against Rock, Poison, and Electric majority of the time, right? Zydog does not change that fact in the slightest, I assure you. As for the match ups you think are unwinnable entirely, again I think you're overestimating this. On Electric, Alolan Raichu, Tapu Koko, and common scarfers are able to check it; and Poison has Physical Def Mega Venusaur and Toxapex (depending on what it's locked into), not to mention Scarf Gengar can always revenge kill. As for Rock, you are correct in saying that it does not have a lot for Zydog, however, it has severe trouble against Ground in general, with or without it. Barely anything changes in banning Zydog--it is not remotely broken not to mention. (it's also good to consider for a lot of the Ground immune mons it supposedly breaks, T-Arrows needs to ground them first before any of them can take super effective damage, so in actuality, things like Rotom do give you a plan of action prior, i.e. burning it, and it'll be less likely to stay in against it).

 

[Neski]

Aye, weekend is near. Catching up on all the posts now. I need to hit the ladder with zydog and kartana now so I can quickly get up to speed and form my opinion.

EDIT: Here are some replays that I think showcase MegaGross' effect on the meta more.
Vs Fighting - Zen Headbutt spam.
Vs Dragon - Zydog included. Tanks Thousand Arrows and then kills.
Vs Ground - Has a Dugtrio + Zygarde. Dugtrio dies to BPunch after some hazards.
Vs Flying - MGross cleaning after tanking Lando's EQ. No other Pokemon on Steel would have been able to do it.

Feel free to invalidate these, and I'm taking suggestions for what kind of replays to aim for.

Tagging Eien to continue his analysis on the additional Mega Metagross replays he asked for. I see a lot of posts about kartana and zydoge, so he probably didn't see the post.

Feel free to comment too, Acast . These have all replays and no calcs.

 

[Shadestep]

You do realize though that Ground easily wins against Rock, Poison, and Electric majority of the time, right? Zydog does not change that fact in the slightest, I assure you. As for the match ups you think are unwinnable entirely, again I think you're overestimating this. On Electric, Alolan Raichu, Tapu Koko, and common scarfers are able to check it; and Poison has Physical Def Mega Venusaur and Toxapex (depending on what it's locked into), not to mention Scarf Gengar can always revenge kill. As for Rock, you are correct in saying that it does not have a lot for Zydog, however, it has severe trouble against Ground in general, with or without it. Barely anything changes in banning Zydog--it is not remotely broken not to mention.

um yes hello mr Stunfisk The Great,

Some of your statements are false. Zygarde-10% certainly does change the matchup of Ground vs Electric, as it literally becomes brainless Button Spamming for the Ground-user, which now doesn't have to worry about things like Zapdos or Rotom coming in for free on EQs, or whatever. It doesn't have any defensive checks on Electric and that's the most worrysome thing about it. The only thing on Electric able to check Zygarde-10% are either Scarf HP Ice Pokemon like Xurxitree, Magnezone, Rotom, etc., or Tapu Koko. Scarf HP Ice Pokemon are extremely easy to pivot into on Ground, and Tapu Koko is, well.. obviously a problem for Ground, but then again it's trapped by Dugtrio (which you should always use in tandem with Zydog, by the way), so it's not that big of a deal. As far as Rock goes, Zydog is threatening to the only Ground-immunes they have, like M-Aerodactyl, but then again Ground vs Rock should literally never be an issue. That Matchup is already as unwinnable as it is, I assure you.

Poison is a different story but there's not much to it. I have no idea why you're mentioning Toxapex as an argument for Zygarde-10% not being broken, but whatever. It's not a counter nor a good check, and neither is Phys. Def Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur takes 40% from Thousand Arrows and is 2HKOd by Outrage, so it's immensely pressured by it, and together with multiple rounds of Hazards, it's not going to be able to check it well at all. Scarf Gengar fails to OHKO Zydog with any moves besides HP Ice, which is easy to abuse as it's extremely weak and allows for Excadrill to get a free switch-in on it, or even Pursuit-trapper Krookodile to eliminate it.

Once again, I think your logic is slightly flawed and I think you are underestimating the immense pressure Zydog alone puts on teams that can only be described as stupid, brainless, and uncompetitive. It turns slighly disadvantagious matchups into nearly unwinnable matchups just because the move Thousand Arrows is so dumb. It should (and will, probably) be banned ASAP.

 

[Arash]

^to add on to this, of course ground has the advantage against those types (rock, poison and elec; steel and fire may have a disadvantage vs ground but don't seem to have as hard a time due to the tools available to them), but having an advantage shouldn't mean that it's borderline unwinnable for the other type. the Zydog user doesn't have to think much vs these types; bring Zydog in vs something that's slower and already grounded (at 115 base speed, it is the fastest ground type outside of Arceus and regular Dugtrio), and click Thousand Arrows without regard to what the rest of the team looks like. The opponent will pretty much have to sac their current mon and get in one of their checks to force it to run away and come back later, because their ground immunities are getting knocked down and hit for SE damage next turn.

but besides ground teams, Zydog is also available on Dragon. Here, it tips the scales so that Dragon is even more of an unwinnable match vs Fire and Electric (they both already hate this matchup), and now Dragon has a huge advantage against Poison and Rock that didn't exist to this degree before.

in short, the main reason Zydog (or at least Thousand Arrows) deserves a closer look is that it widens the gap between the mid-high tier types that can handle it, and the lower-tier types that have no real answer and almost auto-lose vs both ground and dragon.

 

[Dece1t]

um yes hello mr Stunfisk The Great,

Some of your statements are false. Zygarde-10% certainly does change the matchup of Ground vs Electric, as it literally becomes brainless Button Spamming for the Ground-user, which now doesn't have to worry about things like Zapdos or Rotom coming in for free on EQs, or whatever. It doesn't have any defensive checks on Electric and that's the most worrysome thing about it. The only thing on Electric able to check Zygarde-10% are either Scarf HP Ice Pokemon like Xurxitree, Magnezone, Rotom, etc., or Tapu Koko. Scarf HP Ice Pokemon are extremely easy to pivot into on Ground, and Tapu Koko is, well.. obviously a problem for Ground, but then again it's trapped by Dugtrio (which you should always use in tandem with Zydog, by the way), so it's not that big of a deal. As far as Rock goes, Zydog is threatening to the only Ground-immunes they have, like M-Aerodactyl, but then again Ground vs Rock should literally never be an issue. That Matchup is already as unwinnable as it is, I assure you.

Poison is a different story but there's not much to it. I have no idea why you're mentioning Toxapex as an argument for Zygarde-10% not being broken, but whatever. It's not a counter nor a good check, and neither is Phys. Def Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur takes 40% from Thousand Arrows and is 2HKOd by Outrage, so it's immensely pressured by it, and together with multiple rounds of Hazards, it's not going to be able to check it well at all. Scarf Gengar fails to OHKO Zydog with any moves besides HP Ice, which is easy to abuse as it's extremely weak and allows for Excadrill to get a free switch-in on it, or even Pursuit-trapper Krookodile to eliminate it.

Once again, I think your logic is slightly flawed and I think you are underestimating the immense pressure Zydog alone puts on teams that can only be described as stupid, brainless, and uncompetitive. It turns slighly disadvantagious matchups into nearly unwinnable matchups just because the move Thousand Arrows is so dumb. It should (and will, probably) be banned ASAP.

First of all, you could at least not be rude, but, on the topic of the matter, I think your misunderstanding what I said, and I'll be happy to explain.

Like I mentioned, in order for Zydog to land super effective ground attacks on Zapdos and Rotom, the first hit needs to ground them first. That gives them the opportunity to do something, i.e. burn or toxic it. Also, not all ground teams do, or should run Dugtrio 100% of the time in conjunction with it. A lot of the options you mentioned, such as Krookodile or Mamoswine, you probably won't have enough room for once you get your basic cores in. Secondly, I'd you haven't noticed, Hoopa-U is another Pokemon that requires revenge killing in order to be checked; it's managable, and it's up to you to save your offensive checks and in general play well. Zydog is a similar situation vs Electric, where that is how you have to play. That's also mentioning Lando-I can bring Gravity to perform "mindless ground spam." Electrics matchup against ground has never been easy by any means, and Zydog doesn't change very much.

As for my Poison examples, Zydog will usually be Choice locked since it only has a neutral base 100 attack, which is pretty mediocre otherwise. Venusaur can perfectly tank t-Arrows, Toxapex can easily tank an Outrage, and hopefully burn in return. So, yes, the combination of them can check it. Also, Scarf Gengar already runs HP Ice for Dragons and Lando, just an fyi.

I'd recommend for a better insight on some of the main cons of Zydog that I think you fail to realize, refer to Blakjack's post.

 

[Moosical]

I know it's semantics, but I just want to point out that thousand arrows hit levitate and air balloon mons super-effectively (like rotom-w), the neutral first hit thing only applies to flying type pokemon.

 

[Aparctias]

Rather off topic, but this post specifically irked me a little bit.

I have a basic Ice team, and I knew off the bat that Scizor was going to be a huge problem. So I sashed my Ninetails and gave it HP Fire, and that generally handles the issues I have with Scizor.

There is no scizor set (barring no investment regular scizor) that will fall to Ninetales' Hidden Power Fire before spikes or rocks, and mega scizor with HP investment (which in my experience seems to be the most common set) requires three layers of spikes and rocks to OHKO even some of the time after hail, and I assure you they wouldn't let you get rid of their hazards (or switch scizor into ninetales for that matter) the second time you play them. I will admit that as long as you miraculously prevent steel or grass from getting up hazards that set should very well work against kartana, but no mega scizor set will fall to it.

 

[Arash]

As for my Poison examples, Zydog will usually be Choice locked since it only has a neutral base 100 attack, which is pretty mediocre otherwise. Venusaur can perfectly tank t-Arrows, Toxapex can easily tank an Outrage, and hopefully burn in return. So, yes, the combination of them can check it. Also, Scarf Gengar already runs HP Ice for Dragons and Lando, just an fyi.

All calcs below are for 10% form:

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (hardly what I would call tanking; let's see what Tox does in return:)
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 6 SpD Zygarde: 60-72 (24 - 28.9%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO

Toxapex sure isn't going to switch into banded Zydog and force it out. If it's 1v1 and both are healthy, you better hope for that scald chance of burning (jk, relying on scald burn is not a viable strat when you have one chance)

Since flying mons / levitators / air balloons are irrelevant, the only other types on poison that are neutral to ground are bug/poison (of which Scolipede is the only one with any business eating ground attacks) and grass/poisons (namely, mega-venusaur). Let's look at both of these cases:

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 202-238 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

To be fair, Scoli can OHKO it with Megahorn, but it is not faster without +1 speed and can't really switch in.

Finally, Mega-Venusaur, the only pokemon on a poison team that would warrant Zydog clicking anything but Thousand Arrows. If it switches in to Zydog:

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 115-136 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 153-181 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Mega-Venu (assuming 100% health, maxed+ defense and already changed to mega form), after SR and 2 attacks, will be at best case scenario, 14-15% of its health remaining and at worst, dead or very close to it. However, even if this is a 1v1 scenario, Mega-Venu is forced to either run HP ice (which it has no room for on its moveset, as HP fire is so much more important for the team) or use precious synthesis PP to not get killed. Zydog of course is free to switch out to something else that can handle Mega-Venusaur, as it is almost guaranteed to be using Synthesis on your switch.

Finally, while it is true that Scarf Gengar is known to run HP ice, many poison teams are running a scarf Nihilego (who gets Dazzling Gleam to OHKO Zydog, should it choose to run it) and poison teams may not have room for Gengar to be a scarfer. Further, Gengar (or Nihilego) does not outspeed without a scarf, and if Zydog is actually a DD variant and it gets a DD off on a predicted switch, not even Gengar will stop it.

 

[Endal]

First of all, you could at least not be rude, but, on the topic of the matter, I think your misunderstanding what I said, and I'll be happy to explain.

Like I mentioned, in order for Zydog to land super effective ground attacks on Zapdos and Rotom, the first hit needs to ground them first. That gives them the opportunity to do something, i.e. burn or toxic it. Also, not all ground teams do, or should run Dugtrio 100% of the time in conjunction with it. A lot of the options you mentioned, such as Krookodile or Mamoswine, you probably won't have enough room for once you get your basic cores in. Secondly, I'd you haven't noticed, Hoopa-U is another Pokemon that requires revenge killing in order to be checked; it's managable, and it's up to you to save your offensive checks and in general play well. Zydog is a similar situation vs Electric, where that is how you have to play. That's also mentioning Lando-I can bring Gravity to perform "mindless ground spam." Electrics matchup against ground has never been easy by any means, and Zydog doesn't change very much.

As for my Poison examples, Zydog will usually be Choice locked since it only has a neutral base 100 attack, which is pretty mediocre otherwise. Venusaur can perfectly tank t-Arrows, Toxapex can easily tank an Outrage, and hopefully burn in return. So, yes, the combination of them can check it. Also, Scarf Gengar already runs HP Ice for Dragons and Lando, just an fyi.

scp edit: discuss the meta and let me moderate what's said in the thread

Ah yes. But where are the switchins. No sane player would stay in on a rotom w 1v1. Theyd find another opportunity to bring the zydog in and secure a kill. Rinse and repeat until your entire team falls to it. Also idk if its just me but i sure as hell dont care if my zydog is toxiced. It doesnt need a lot of turns to do what it does.

 

[Bitana]

Ok, so I'm one of the players who actually PLAYED Rock vs Ground in Gen 6, when both Gravity Landorus AND Banded excadrill were incredibly common, and I can tell everyone here that the matchup, while difficult, was NOT anywhere close to an autoloss for Rock, specially given tech like Air Balloon Omastar (Before you ask, yes, it did have HP Grass), which single-handedly destroyed the entirety of Gen 6 Ground under sticky webs, assuming you managed to pull off the setup.
This was NOT a gimmick, as Omastar also had a key roll vs Gen 6 Flying in handling Landorus-T and against many other types who liked to Spam EQ against Rock monos.
Obviously, Zydog completely removes this as a threat by simply ignoring said Air Balloon, making the matchup much, much harder than before.

Here is a gen 6 replay showing the matchup:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-467671220

As you can see, after a setup, not much on Ground save for MAYBE band Mamoswine could actually stop Omastar from simply winning.

(Before you ask, yes, even if he has Gastrodon he still lost to HP grass Omastar assuming he wasn't the legendary Max Sp. def Gastrodon, which loses to Keldeo.)
+2 252 SpA Omastar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 392-464 (92 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

[Endal]

Ok, so I'm one of the players who actually PLAYED Rock vs Ground in Gen 6, when both Gravity Landorus AND Banded excadrill were incredibly common, and I can tell everyone here that the matchup, while difficult, was NOT anywhere close to an autoloss for Rock, specially given tech like Air Balloon Omastar (Before you ask, yes, it did have HP Grass), which single-handedly destroyed the entirety of Gen 6 Ground under sticky webs, assuming you managed to pull off the setup.
This was NOT a gimmick, as Omastar also had a key roll vs Gen 6 Flying in handling Landorus-T and against many other types who liked to Spam EQ against Rock monos.
Obviously, Zydog completely removes this as a threat by simply ignoring said Air Balloon, making the matchup much, much harder than before.

Here is a gen 6 replay showing the matchup:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-467671220

As you can see, after a setup, not much on Ground save for MAYBE band Mamoswine could actually stop Omastar from simply winning.

(Before you ask, yes, even if he has Gastrodon he still lost to HP grass Omastar assuming he wasn't the legendary Max Sp. def Gastrodon, which loses to Keldeo.)
+2 252 SpA Omastar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 392-464 (92 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Based on that replay, are you saying the fact that zydog gets espeed would have made it not possible for omastar to sweep?

 

[Bitana]

Nope, I'm saying Omastar never gets to setup at all, because Zydog ignores the Balloon completely.

 

[Dece1t]

All calcs below are for 10% form:

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (hardly what I would call tanking; let's see what Tox does in return:)
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 6 SpD Zygarde: 60-72 (24 - 28.9%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO

Toxapex sure isn't going to switch into banded Zydog and force it out. If it's 1v1 and both are healthy, you better hope for that scald chance of burning (jk, relying on scald burn is not a viable strat when you have one chance)

Since flying mons / levitators / air balloons are irrelevant, the only other types on poison that are neutral to ground are bug/poison (of which Scolipede is the only one with any business eating ground attacks) and grass/poisons (namely, mega-venusaur). Let's look at both of these cases:
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 202-238 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

To be fair, Scoli can OHKO it with Megahorn, but it is not faster without +1 speed and can't really switch in.

Finally, Mega-Venusaur, the only pokemon on a poison team that would warrant Zydog clicking anything but Thousand Arrows. If it switches in to Zydog:

252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 115-136 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 153-181 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Mega-Venu (assuming 100% health, maxed+ defense and already changed to mega form), after SR and 2 attacks, will be at best case scenario, 14-15% of its health remaining and at worst, dead or very close to it. However, even if this is a 1v1 scenario, Mega-Venu is forced to either run HP ice (which it has no room for on its moveset, as HP fire is so much more important for the team) or use precious synthesis PP to not get killed. Zydog of course is free to switch out to something else that can handle Mega-Venusaur, as it is almost guaranteed to be using Synthesis on your switch.

Finally, while it is true that Scarf Gengar is known to run HP ice, many poison teams are running a scarf Nihilego (who gets Dazzling Gleam to OHKO Zydog, should it choose to run it) and poison teams may not have room for Gengar to be a scarfer. Further, Gengar (or Nihilego) does not outspeed without a scarf, and if Zydog is actually a DD variant and it gets a DD off on a predicted switch, not even Gengar will stop it.

Did you even read what I said? Toxapex can tank an Outrage, Venu can tank a Thousand Arrows, and I can make that argument because it is choice locked 90% of the time. Can it be difficult to play around? That's just like saying can Ground in general be hard to deal with, which is a resounding yes. Is it impossible? Absolutely not, it is very check-able.