Move Equality (Playable) Whirlpool, Fire Spin, Infestation & Sand Tomb are now banned (see post 193)

[Martin]

Agreed. Use EQ>Drill Run. However, where are you getting the idea that Drill Run is more powerful from? EQ is 100 bp by default, and Drill Run is boosted up to 100 bp by the metagame while not being boosted by SF - meaning they have the same base power.

TBH, physical Ground-type STAB got the short end of the stick here, as all of the Ground-type moves with good secondary are either special or are Bulldoze - which is notorious for being the only Icy Wind variant that doesn't get boosted. It's a pity, because Bulldoze being boosted would have both been really cool for a lot of Pokémon and have given me an excuse to ask for an Excadrill on a bulldozer for thread artwork, but it isn't so physical Ground-types are significantly more reliant on their coverage to make up for the fact that they aren't getting any good secondary effects while the rest of the meta does.

However, there is one move which a handful of Ground-types learn that could be appealing if you don't mind using an equivalent to Magma Storm in both accuracy and power (in this meta at least): Sand Tomb. This variant on Wrap makes for a cool move due to it dealing 100bp plus a guaranteed 1/8 of the opponent's maximum HP (or 1/6 with Binding Band) if it hits, while then trapping your opponent and racking up residual damage on them if you stay in on the following turn. Basically, it sacrifices accuracy for "power" and utility (power in quotation marks because it is effectively a stronger hit that is only seen at the end of the turn) for Pokémon which learn the move. Here is a list of all fully evolved Pokémon which learn the move:

Hide

• Sandslash
• Dugtrio
• Flygon
• Garchomp
• Hippowdon
• Krookodile

I have put Hippowdon in bold because I feel like it could make VERY good use of the move due to its stupidly high bulk. However, I feel that TankChomp could also make pretty damn good use of it too to rack up damage on physical attackers stupidly fast.

 

[Darth Manaphy]

Agreed. Use EQ>Drill Run. However, where are you getting the idea that Drill Run is more powerful from? EQ is 100 bp by default, and Drill Run is boosted up to 100 bp by the metagame while not being boosted by SF - meaning they have the same base power.

TBH, physical Ground-type STAB got the short end of the stick here, as all of the Ground-type moves with good secondary are either special or are Bulldoze - which is notorious for being the only Icy Wind variant that doesn't get boosted. It's a pity, because Bulldoze being boosted would have both been really cool for a lot of Pokémon and have given me an excuse to ask for an Excadrill on a bulldozer for thread artwork, but it isn't so physical Ground-types are significantly more reliant on their coverage to make up for the fact that they aren't getting any good secondary effects while the rest of the meta does.

However, there is one move which a handful of Ground-types learn that could be appealing if you don't mind using an equivalent to Magma Storm in both accuracy and power (in this meta at least): Sand Tomb. This variant on Wrap makes for a cool move due to it dealing 100bp plus a guaranteed 1/8 of the opponent's maximum HP (or 1/6 with Binding Band) if it hits, while then trapping your opponent and racking up residual damage on them if you stay in on the following turn. Basically, it sacrifices accuracy for "power" and utility (power in quotation marks because it is effectively a stronger hit that is only seen at the end of the turn) for Pokémon which learn the move. Here is a list of all fully evolved Pokémon which learn the move:

Hide

• Sandslash
• Dugtrio
• Flygon
• Garchomp
• Hippowdon
• Krookodile

I have put Hippowdon in bold because I feel like it could make VERY good use of the move due to its stupidly high bulk. However, I feel that TankChomp could also make pretty damn good use of it too to rack up damage on physical attackers stupidly fast.

Drill Run has higher critical hit ratio. On certain builds for certain Pokemon, it's definitely better. Something that abuses high critical hit moves might find it useful as ground coverage.

Like with Drill Run, Sand Tomb is one of those moves where you have to optimize accuracy versus secondary effects.

 

[Talpr0ne]

I don't think that there even is a good Pokemon with Sniper or Super Luck that can use Drill Run effectively.

 

[Martin]

Drill Run has higher critical hit ratio. On certain builds for certain Pokemon, it's definitely better. Something that abuses high critical hit moves might find it useful as ground coverage.

Like with Drill Run, Sand Tomb is one of those moves where you have to optimize accuracy versus secondary effects.

Drill Run still deals contact though, which means that it is still a worse move than EQ as it leaves you wide open to Ferrothorn and TankChomp, as well as randon Rocky Helmets on stuff like Skarmory.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Drill Run still deals contact though, which means that it is still a worse move than EQ as it leaves you wide open to Ferrothorn and TankChomp, as well as randon Rocky Helmets on stuff like Skarmory.

Skarmory is immune to Drill Run :p

 

[Martin]

Skarmory is immune to Drill Run :p

idk i just said the first RH user that popped into my head XD it'll make contact when its roosting i guess...

A better example would have been Alomomola or something XD

 

[Martin]

In an attempt to try and revive this, I wanna gather a few people to help me make some viability rankings to go in the reserved post of the thread. This will involve a lot of testing, so getting it onto a new server would be good as the one it is on now is in a state of permanent down. If anyone has a server, please feel free to put the meta on it and make a post here, as I really don't want this meta to die completely :[


====================================================================================
Anyway, before the server went down, I decided that a number of Pokémon need to seriously be discussed. They are as follows:

• Mega Beedrill
  • Adaptability Fell Stinger/U-Turn, Poison Sting and Drill Run/Knock Off turn this thing into a complete monster
  • Entire meta is centralised around it and Keldeo
• Keldeo
  • Virtually unwallable coverage in Scald+Secret Sword+Icy Wind+Hidden Power
  • Entire meta is centralised around it and M-Bee
• Gothitelle
  • Take it in standard and make their attacks stronger; while not inherently broken, it definitely more noncompetitive than in standard due to having an even easier time taking out what it has trapped.
• Gothorita
  • If Gothitelle goes, this thing takes its place and does exactly the same thing only slightly worse. Still super noncompetitive.
• Talonflame
  • 100 BP priority with no drawbacks make this thing really scary
  • Mixed is more viable than before due to the bolstered Hidden Powers and Incinerate, improving its matchup v.s. certain 'mons due to not needing to use Natural Gift to lure things like Rotom, Tran and T-Tar anymore, not being forced into impaling itself on Garchomp/Ferrothorn and being able to hit steels on their weaker defense without relying on Overheat
    
  • The increased ease at which hazards can be removed due to Rapid Spin's buff is definitely a point in its favor

That is a brief outline, but I will go into more detail if anyone wants me to.

====================================================================================

Also, I'd like to see discussion on anything cool you happen to mess around with. I'll bring up some things I've been messing around with to good success now because I want to :P

Ambipom

Ambipom @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Hit
- U-turn
- Low Sweep
- Knock Off / Fake Out / Fire Punch / Pursuit

Ambipom's combination of a great speed tier and good power turn it into a threat. Double Hit gets the boost from technician, making it a 75 BP move that hits twice; to put this into perspective, 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 174-210 (43 - 51.9%) -- approx. 72.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. This is a neutral, non-banded hit, and most physical attackers fail to 2HKO it after rocks with with their neutral STABs in standard (y'know, the place where 120 BP Close Combats are roaming around), and it is a testament to just how powerful Ambipom really is. Also, its speed tier puts it above a number of important benchmarks, including Lati@s, Gengar, Serperior and Thundurus, while allowing it to form fast, threatening VoltTurn cores with things like Talonflame and Raikou. I feel that it has the potential to become a defining force in the metagame and a great glue 'mon for offensive teams.

Hawlucha

Hawlucha @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Power-Up Punch
- Aerial Ace
- Rock Tomb

While Hawlucha seems nerfed at a glance considering its STABs are now weaker, in reality it is a much better 'mon a number of reasons; firstly, it no longer has to rely on either HJK (which riskes KOing Hawlucha when it is used), Superpower (which is detrimental to its one-sweep nature) or a laughably weak move for its Fighting-STAB. Secondly, its flying STAB is no longer complete dead weight before it reaches a point where it can sweep, allowing it to be far more effective in mid-game scenarios. Thirdly, it can now afford to run coverage to hit things which it struggled to break before, such as Gyarados.

Defensive Steels

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers / Shed Shell
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

Skarmory @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet / Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Pluck
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

These are to advertise previously poor moves which these Pokémon can now use to good effect; a big drawback of using Ferrothorn's grass STAB in standard is that he has to rely on a move with 85% accuracy in order to deal any meaningful damage with it. However, with Seed Bomb getting a buff, Ferrothorn happily sets the extra 20 base power that it had in standard to take advantage of this newly powerful, 100% accurate alternative that presents itself as Power Whip descends into mediocrity. Skarmory, on the other hand, can now take advantage of things which carry berries, such as Wobbuffet (which it naturally lures), Azumarill and Hawlucha.

As a side note, rain is definitely more versatile than it is in standard; this is because, while Kingdra has seen a nerf due to Draco no longer nuking the entire tier, most other Swift Swim users have received inherent buffs due to the increasing power/accuracy/utility of their STABs and coverage options. For example, take Ludicolo. While it has lost 10 BP on its key STAB, it can now use 100BP Scald, Absorb, HP Fighting and Icy Wind - giving it big utility and better sweeping/wallbreaking potential than what it had before. Also, Kabutops now has access to more powerful STABs, a 100 BP Rapid Spin (making the playstyle less reliant on Latias for hazard control and improving the viability of spikes-stacking rain), improved coverage (gains a consistent Fighting-type move in Rock Smash) and a 100% accurate Rock STAB in Rock Tomb.

 

[Matt_192]

In an attempt to try and revive this, I wanna gather a few people to help me make some viability rankings to go in the reserved post of the thread. This will involve a lot of testing, so getting it onto a new server would be good as the one it is on now is in a state of permanent down. If anyone has a server, please feel free to put the meta on it and make a post here, as I really don't want this meta to die completely :[


====================================================================================
Anyway, before the server went down, I decided that a number of Pokémon need to seriously be discussed. They are as follows:

• Mega Beedrill
  • Adaptability Fell Stinger/U-Turn, Poison Sting and Drill Run/Knock Off turn this thing into a complete monster
  • Entire meta is centralised around it and Keldeo
• Keldeo
  • Virtually unwallable coverage in Scald+Secret Sword+Icy Wind+Hidden Power
  • Entire meta is centralised around it and M-Bee
• Gothitelle
  • Take it in standard and make their attacks stronger; while not inherently broken, it definitely more noncompetitive than in standard due to having an even easier time taking out what it has trapped.
• Gothorita
  • If Gothitelle goes, this thing takes its place and does exactly the same thing only slightly worse. Still super noncompetitive.
• Talonflame
  • 100 BP priority with no drawbacks make this thing really scary
  • Mixed is more viable than before due to the bolstered Hidden Powers and Incinerate, improving its matchup v.s. certain 'mons due to not needing to use Natural Gift to lure things like Rotom, Tran and T-Tar anymore, not being forced into impaling itself on Garchomp/Ferrothorn and being able to hit steels on their weaker defense without relying on Overheat
    
  • The increased ease at which hazards can be removed due to Rapid Spin's buff is definitely a point in its favor

That is a brief outline, but I will go into more detail if anyone wants me to.

====================================================================================

Also, I'd like to see discussion on anything cool you happen to mess around with. I'll bring up some things I've been messing around with to good success now because I want to :P

Ambipom

Ambipom @ Life Orb / Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Hit
- U-turn
- Low Sweep
- Knock Off / Fake Out / Fire Punch / Pursuit

Ambipom's combination of a great speed tier and good power turn it into a threat. Double Hit gets the boost from technician, making it a 75 BP move that hits twice; to put this into perspective, 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 174-210 (43 - 51.9%) -- approx. 72.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery. This is a neutral, non-banded hit, and most physical attackers fail to 2HKO it after rocks with with their neutral STABs in standard (y'know, the place where 120 BP Close Combats are roaming around), and it is a testament to just how powerful Ambipom really is. Also, its speed tier puts it above a number of important benchmarks, including Lati@s, Gengar, Serperior and Thundurus, while allowing it to form fast, threatening VoltTurn cores with things like Talonflame and Raikou. I feel that it has the potential to become a defining force in the metagame and a great glue 'mon for offensive teams.

Hawlucha

Hawlucha @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 12 HP / 244 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Power-Up Punch
- Aerial Ace
- Rock Tomb

While Hawlucha seems nerfed at a glance considering its STABs are now weaker, in reality it is a much better 'mon a number of reasons; firstly, it no longer has to rely on either HJK (which riskes KOing Hawlucha when it is used), Superpower (which is detrimental to its one-sweep nature) or a laughably weak move for its Fighting-STAB. Secondly, its flying STAB is no longer complete dead weight before it reaches a point where it can sweep, allowing it to be far more effective in mid-game scenarios. Thirdly, it can now afford to run coverage to hit things which it struggled to break before, such as Gyarados.

Defensive Steels

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers / Shed Shell
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

Skarmory @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet / Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Pluck
- Filler
- Filler
- Filler

These are to advertise previously poor moves which these Pokémon can now use to good effect; a big drawback of using Ferrothorn's grass STAB in standard is that he has to rely on a move with 85% accuracy in order to deal any meaningful damage with it. However, with Seed Bomb getting a buff, Ferrothorn happily sets the extra 20 base power that it had in standard to take advantage of this newly powerful, 100% accurate alternative that presents itself as Power Whip descends into mediocrity. Skarmory, on the other hand, can now take advantage of things which carry berries, such as Wobbuffet (which it naturally lures), Azumarill and Hawlucha.

As a side note, rain is definitely more versatile than it is in standard; this is because, while Kingdra has seen a nerf due to Draco no longer nuking the entire tier, most other Swift Swim users have received inherent buffs due to the increasing power/accuracy/utility of their STABs and coverage options. For example, take Ludicolo. While it has lost 10 BP on its key STAB, it can now use 100BP Scald, Absorb, HP Fighting and Icy Wind - giving it big utility and better sweeping/wallbreaking potential than what it had before. Also, Kabutops now has access to more powerful STABs, a 100 BP Rapid Spin (making the playstyle less reliant on Latias for hazard control and improving the viability of spikes-stacking rain), improved coverage (gains a consistent Fighting-type move in Rock Smash) and a 100% accurate Rock STAB in Rock Tomb.

I'm going to attempt to get the server back up - I have literally no idea why it's gone down. I'll speak to Cannu whenever I see him.

 

[Snaquaza]

I have Move Equality on Aqua already. Have had it for a while due to popular request. gamer boy

 

[Martin]

Acknowledged :) Aqua is now in the OP.

 

[Ghoul King]

I really think the list of moves unaffected by Move Equality should simply be ones with variable BP and/or non-zero Priority. All this stuff that's specially affected by weather or terrains or doubled against Minimize targets or whatever and thus is exempt is really silly and I don't see the logic to it, especially why Charge is exempt, weather's general effects are exempt, etc. Focusing on variable BP seems much more consistent.

... and why is Nature Power listed as an unaffected move? It's not even an attacking move. It just calls other moves, which are presumably affected.

I want my Bulldoze Nidoking dammit. >:(

 

[Martin]

I really think the list of moves unaffected by Move Equality should simply be ones with variable BP and/or non-zero Priority. All this stuff that's specially affected by weather or terrains or doubled against Minimize targets or whatever and thus us exempt is really silly and I don't see the logic to it, especially why Charge is exempt, weather's general effects are exempt, etc. Focusing on variable BP seems much more consistent.

The reason for those exceptions is that it would mean entire types are affected. Having them not act as exceptions means that we aren't left with ≥5 entire types completely uneffected by the mechanics change, which defeats the entire point of the metagame. I shouldn't think that entire types should be left out simply because they are made better/worse by rain/sun/charge/misty terrain/grassy terrain.

... and why is Nature Power listed as an unaffected move? It's not even an attacking move. It just calls other moves, which are presumably affected.

That was meant to be Secret Power. I will fix that. Thanks for pointing it out.

I want my Bulldoze Nidoking dammit. >:(

Grassy Terrain's boosts are not counted as exceptions if they are not grass-type moves, which is a pity - but it is for the sake of consistency/fairness, so RIP Bulldoze :(

 

[Martin]

I have Move Equality on Aqua already. Have had it for a while due to popular request. gamer boy

Sorry to reply to this again, but can I just double-check: is this the old version (Yuelia's thread) or the new version (my thread)? The reason I ask is because I remember the old version was on a server (can't remember which tho) and the mechanics are different, so idk if this is the old or new move equality.

 

[Ghoul King]

The reason for those exceptions is that it would mean entire types are affected. Having them not act as exceptions means that we aren't left with ≥5 entire types completely uneffected by the mechanics change, which defeats the entire point of the metagame. I shouldn't think that entire types should be left out simply because they are made better/worse by rain/sun/charge/misty terrain/grassy terrain.

That was meant to be Secret Power. I will fix that. Thanks for pointing it out.

Grassy Terrain's boosts are not counted as exceptions if they are not grass-type moves, which is a pity - but it is for the sake of consistency/fairness, so RIP Bulldoze :(

That really doesn't make any sense. They don't affect BP, and if you start saying some non-BP changes count and others don't without any real logic to it, it's just arbitrary, and is getting into the territory where one has to wander why STAB is exempt, not to mention Mega Launcher, Strong Jaw, Iron Fist, Reckless... it's just inconsistent.

Secret Power's BP/damage does not vary under any circumstances.

That last point runs into two problems.

It's not consistent.

"Fairness" doesn't mean anything here. How is it "fair" to affect Bulldoze because of Grassy Terrain, and "unfair" to not affect it?

 

[Martin]

That really doesn't make any sense. They don't affect BP, and if you start saying some non-BP changes count and others don't without any real logic to it, it's just arbitrary, and is getting into the territory where one has to wander why STAB is exempt, not to mention Mega Launcher, Strong Jaw, Iron Fist, Reckless... it's just inconsistent.

Secret Power's BP/damage does not vary under any circumstances.

That last point runs into two problems.

It's not consistent.

"Fairness" doesn't mean anything here. How is it "fair" to affect Bulldoze because of Grassy Terrain, and "unfair" to not affect it?

I'm exceptions for things which affect enitre types (i.e. if a field effect boosts an entire type, the type boost is ignored)/base mechanics of the game (e.g. STAB), and part of the fun of it is to try and see how certain abilities thrive (which is why they are also exempt). If I wanted to be entirely consistent, weather would be taken into account for fire and water moves and terrains would be taken into account for dragon, grass and electric moves. However, that leaves five whole types unaffected, and that is just stupid. If STAB is taken into account, the mechanics are literally the same as standard because technically all attacks can be boosted by STAB. If I take abilities into account, then a: 4 types (bug, water, fire, grass) are exempt from the meta's main mechanic (swarm, torrent, blaze, overgrow), b: it takes away a key premise of the meta (i.e. making secondary effects a bigger consideration when teambuilding, as Sheer Force would leave any move with a secondary effect unmodified if abilities were in the equation) and c: it takes away part of the fun of some abilities in this meta (e.g. Strong Jaw Tyrantrum having an effective 4 STABs in Fire Fang, Ice Fang, Crunch and Rock Tomb, Sheer Force removing the secondary effects (big in this meta) in exchange for 130 BP before STAB), and it would result on only a handful of moves having their powers changed (it would mean all punching moves, biting moves, moves with secondary effects (encompasses all biting moves) and moves with ≤60 BP - probably among others - would retain their original power, which takes away a huge number of the best/most fun moves in the metagame (e.g. Draining Kiss, Icy Wind etc.). If moves with variable BP as a result of their key mechanics (e.g. Stored Power, Rollout, Acrobatics etc.) had 100 BP, they would be completely broken and would result in excessive bans. I could make it 100% consistent, but that would come at the cost of fun (i.e. the entire point of why you'd play the meta) - so a semi-consistent system is the compromise that I chose to make for the sake of fun.

If the move's power is modified by a core mechanic of the move (e.g. Rollout, Stomp, Stored Power etc.) or in a scenario which doesn't effect its entire type (e.g. bulldoze), its power is unaffected; if its power is affected as a result of a condition which affects the power of entire types (weather, terrains for their respective types (not Bulldoze, as not all Ground-type moves' powers are affected by Grassy Terrain), Overgrow+variants, Flash Fire and Charge), as a result of the mechanics which affect everything in the game (i.e. STAB, super effectiveness etc.) or as a result of an ability (e.g. Sheer Force and Technician), Strong Jaw etc.), they are affected by the new mechanics for the sake of making the metagame fun.

What this system aims to do is ensure that the metagame is still fun while allowing for maximum consistency without breaching this aim. This system allows for minimal bans, maximum potential for variety and keeping the key parts of what makes the meta worth playing over standard or other metas without altering part of the key thought processes that go into move choice (STAB, coverage and effects) and while ensuring that the exceptions are of genuine benefit to the metagame (not having 6 entire types modified, not affecting the power changes brought on by STAB/super effectiveness and not allowing for elements that increase diversity unaffected is unhealthy while having us lose 100 BP Stomp and Bulldoze isn't). If you don't like it you aren't being forced to play the metagame - I'm not a dictator, and I respect your right to criticise it for whatever reasons you choose. However, I am trying to make if fun for those who do choose to play the metagame (i.e. the main audience I want to please), and, in my opinion, this compromise is necessary for that to be the case. My aim was to change the thought processes which go into teambuilding, and that is what I've done. I have included those effects which are irrelevant regardless (e.g. Stomp's boost after Minimise, Bulldoze losing power in grassy terrain etc.) for the sake of increasing the consistency further and minimising the explanation needed without sacrificing any fun. I'd rather say "abilities, stab/se and conditions which affect the power of an entire type are exempt" than tacking "oh: bulldoze and stomp are unaffected because their power changes are as a result of stuff which is irrelevant anyway" onto the end of it, so it is easier to let it slide than it is to make a big, redundant exception for something which isn't even of much benefit to the metagame in the first place. The exceptions are done in blanket so as to ensure that there is a minimal number of singular exceptions (this is demonstrated by the fact that Bulldoze is not 100 BP (it is weakened by a field effect which doesn't affect its entire type's (ground's) BP) and by how I opted to ban Mud Slap as opposed to having it as another exception).

On a side note, you were right about Secret Power; that was a mistake on my part (I had it in my head that it was either strengthened or weakened. It will be removed from the list.

 

[canno]

The way I see it, currently you have it so that only some outside modifiers to the BP are affected (see: Bulldoze) while keeping other (see: every Water-type attacks) arbitrarily, which seems kind of silly. You say that not giving Bulldoze 100 BP is "consistent" but its honestly the complete opposite - you've said Fire / Water attacks can stay with their 100 BP while Bulldoze cannot even though they are boosted in BP the same way.

I think the best way to go about things is to have it so self BP boosting effects do not get 100 BP (So Pursuit would not get boosted because Pursuit itself boosts its own BP. Meanwhile, Water-type attacks are still 100 BP because they themselves do not reduce / boost their BP under certain weather - the weather itself does). As far as I know, this only affects Bulldoze (as much as I would like for Stomp and Hurricane to have 100 BP, technically they do power themselves in very specific situations). However, with this ruling, you do not have to exclude STAB, Abilities, and Weather since none of these factors are things that the move does itself to boost its power - rather, they are outside forces. This would also mean that Bulldoze is no longer arbitrarily locked (as Bulldoze doesn't nerf its own power during Grassy Terrain - Grass Terrain is nerfing Bulldoze's power)

Also why is Body Slam and Smack Down on the list? As far as I know, Body Slam doesn't hit Minimized targets and Smack Down doesn't get boosted when hitting a Flying / Bouncing Pokemon - it just smacks them back down.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Body Slam is boosted if it hits a target that has used Minimize, while Smack Down and Thousand Arrows will be boosted when hitting a target using Fly.

 

[Ghoul King]

I'm exceptions for things which affect enitre types (i.e. if a field effect boosts an entire type, the type boost is ignored)/base mechanics of the game (e.g. STAB), and part of the fun of it is to try and see how certain abilities thrive (which is why they are also exempt). If I wanted to be entirely consistent, weather would be taken into account for fire and water moves and terrains would be taken into account for dragon, grass and electric moves. However, that leaves five whole types unaffected, and that is just stupid. If STAB is taken into account, the mechanics are literally the same as standard because technically all attacks can be boosted by STAB. If I take abilities into account, then a: 4 types (bug, water, fire, grass) are exempt from the meta's main mechanic (swarm, torrent, blaze, overgrow), b: it takes away a key premise of the meta (i.e. making secondary effects a bigger consideration when teambuilding, as Sheer Force would leave any move with a secondary effect unmodified if abilities were in the equation) and c: it takes away part of the fun of some abilities in this meta (e.g. Strong Jaw Tyrantrum having an effective 4 STABs in Fire Fang, Ice Fang, Crunch and Rock Tomb, Sheer Force removing the secondary effects (big in this meta) in exchange for 130 BP before STAB), and it would result on only a handful of moves having their powers changed (it would mean all punching moves, biting moves, moves with secondary effects (encompasses all biting moves) and moves with ≤60 BP - probably among others - would retain their original power, which takes away a huge number of the best/most fun moves in the metagame (e.g. Draining Kiss, Icy Wind etc.). If moves with variable BP as a result of their key mechanics (e.g. Stored Power, Rollout, Acrobatics etc.) had 100 BP, they would be completely broken and would result in excessive bans. I could make it 100% consistent, but that would come at the cost of fun (i.e. the entire point of why you'd play the meta) - so a semi-consistent system is the compromise that I chose to make for the sake of fun.

If the move's power is modified by a core mechanic of the move (e.g. Rollout, Stomp, Stored Power etc.) or in a scenario which doesn't effect its entire type (e.g. bulldoze), its power is unaffected; if its power is affected as a result of a condition which affects the power of entire types (weather, terrains for their respective types (not Bulldoze, as not all Ground-type moves' powers are affected by Grassy Terrain), Overgrow+variants, Flash Fire and Charge), as a result of the mechanics which affect everything in the game (i.e. STAB, super effectiveness etc.) or as a result of an ability (e.g. Sheer Force and Technician), Strong Jaw etc.), they are affected by the new mechanics for the sake of making the metagame fun.

What this system aims to do is ensure that the metagame is still fun while allowing for maximum consistency without breaching this aim. This system allows for minimal bans, maximum potential for variety and keeping the key parts of what makes the meta worth playing over standard or other metas without altering part of the key thought processes that go into move choice (STAB, coverage and effects) and while ensuring that the exceptions are of genuine benefit to the metagame (not having 6 entire types modified, not affecting the power changes brought on by STAB/super effectiveness and not allowing for elements that increase diversity unaffected is unhealthy while having us lose 100 BP Stomp and Bulldoze isn't). If you don't like it you aren't being forced to play the metagame - I'm not a dictator, and I respect your right to criticise it for whatever reasons you choose. However, I am trying to make if fun for those who do choose to play the metagame (i.e. the main audience I want to please), and, in my opinion, this compromise is necessary for that to be the case. My aim was to change the thought processes which go into teambuilding, and that is what I've done. I have included those effects which are irrelevant regardless (e.g. Stomp's boost after Minimise, Bulldoze losing power in grassy terrain etc.) for the sake of increasing the consistency further and minimising the explanation needed without sacrificing any fun. I'd rather say "abilities, stab/se and conditions which affect the power of an entire type are exempt" than tacking "oh: bulldoze and stomp are unaffected because their power changes are as a result of stuff which is irrelevant anyway" onto the end of it, so it is easier to let it slide than it is to make a big, redundant exception for something which isn't even of much benefit to the metagame in the first place. The exceptions are done in blanket so as to ensure that there is a minimal number of singular exceptions (this is demonstrated by the fact that Bulldoze is not 100 BP (it is weakened by a field effect which doesn't affect its entire type's (ground's) BP) and by how I opted to ban Mud Slap as opposed to having it as another exception).

On a side note, you were right about Secret Power; that was a mistake on my part (I had it in my head that it was either strengthened or weakened. It will be removed from the list.

I'm offended at the implication that you think I'm not interested in playing the meta. I'm providing these criticisms precisely because I was teambuilding for this meta.

I absolutely understand the two core tenets: variable BP moves being affected would raise all kinds of icky questions (Does Acrobatics go from 55+55 to 100+100 or 100+55? How does Gyro Ball calculate its BP?) and furthermore for most variable BP moves the entire point of the move is that it has variable BP. Fixed BP Water Spout would just be Surf with less PP. It's just better all around to exclude those moves.

I also absolutely understand ignoring modified priority moves. Increased priority moves would be overcentralizing/broken as hell (Imagine Mega Pinsir Swords Dance sweeping with +2 priority functionally 130 BP ignores Protect spam in the form of Feint) if they got pushed up to 100 BP, and even reduced priority moves would tend to either suffer (Focus Punch) or become obnoxiously powerful. (Dragon Tail, Circle Throw) It's, again, better all around to ignore them.

But that some moves whose damage -not BP- is affected under some circumstances while other moves are excluded that have identical considerations -you don't count spread moves dropping to 75% in Double and Triple battles as a cause for exemption but you do count Bulldoze being halved by Grassy Terrain and don't tell me it's because it doesn't matter because Minimize is banned so Stomp and so on being doubled against Minimized targets also doesn't matter while the point can be made that nobody ever uses Dig, Fly, Bounce, or Surf competitively rendering those cases irrelevant and they don't modify BP anyway- is just arbitrary.

It's not a consistent application of an underlying rule, full stop.

It's also not an obvious net positive for the balance of the meta -there is literally no benefit to making Whirlpool, Twister, Gust, etc stay at their sub-par BP. It doesn't obviously un-break any Pokemon, or prevent the meta from overcentralizing around certain moves -for starters, I'd sooner expect you to render Storm Throw and Frost Breath as exemptions, since they're functionally 150 BP spammable moves that ignore the target's defensive boosting. It can't possibly be about balance, because there are far better targets to be picking on if you're concerned about balance that you're letting through scot-free.

Also, the OP:

All attacks which have fixed base powers (i.e. do not change under any circumstances other than STAB, super effectiveness, as the result of an ability, or under a condition which affects every move of its type) have 100 BP. However, if an attack deals static damage or if the priority is not equal to +0 on the damaging hit, it does not change its power.

This lists three circumstances in which a move is exempt: variable BP, does not use BP for damage ("static damage"), and non-zero priority.

The OP does not claim that modification of damage matters. It claims modification of BP matters.

Those cases where the move's damage can be modified and it's not a BP modification are not following on the rules in the OP, full stop.

 

[thesecondbest]

Change that surf in your list to dive but a few objections to that list: gyaras uses bounce and fly is usable on lando-t. But I agree with the rest of the post.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Fly is terrible on Lando-T and you should never use it. Bounce is barely usable on Gyarados as a lure for Venusaur and even then you're probably better off Megaing and getting STAB Crunch, the more useful option in most scenarios (+1 Crunch 2HKOs 100% of the time vs full physdef mega venu)

 

[Martin]

I'm offended at the implication that you think I'm not interested in playing the meta. I'm providing these criticisms precisely because I was teambuilding for this meta.

I absolutely understand the two core tenets: variable BP moves being affected would raise all kinds of icky questions (Does Acrobatics go from 55+55 to 100+100 or 100+55? How does Gyro Ball calculate its BP?) and furthermore for most variable BP moves the entire point of the move is that it has variable BP. Fixed BP Water Spout would just be Surf with less PP. It's just better all around to exclude those moves.

I also absolutely understand ignoring modified priority moves. Increased priority moves would be overcentralizing/broken as hell (Imagine Mega Pinsir Swords Dance sweeping with +2 priority functionally 130 BP ignores Protect spam in the form of Feint) if they got pushed up to 100 BP, and even reduced priority moves would tend to either suffer (Focus Punch) or become obnoxiously powerful. (Dragon Tail, Circle Throw) It's, again, better all around to ignore them.

But that some moves whose damage -not BP- is affected under some circumstances while other moves are excluded that have identical considerations -you don't count spread moves dropping to 75% in Double and Triple battles as a cause for exemption but you do count Bulldoze being halved by Grassy Terrain and don't tell me it's because it doesn't matter because Minimize is banned so Stomp and so on being doubled against Minimized targets also doesn't matter while the point can be made that nobody ever uses Dig, Fly, Bounce, or Surf competitively rendering those cases irrelevant and they don't modify BP anyway- is just arbitrary.

It's not a consistent application of an underlying rule, full stop.

It's also not an obvious net positive for the balance of the meta -there is literally no benefit to making Whirlpool, Twister, Gust, etc stay at their sub-par BP. It doesn't obviously un-break any Pokemon, or prevent the meta from overcentralizing around certain moves -for starters, I'd sooner expect you to render Storm Throw and Frost Breath as exemptions, since they're functionally 150 BP spammable moves that ignore the target's defensive boosting. It can't possibly be about balance, because there are far better targets to be picking on if you're concerned about balance that you're letting through scot-free.

Also, the OP:



This lists three circumstances in which a move is exempt: variable BP, does not use BP for damage ("static damage"), and non-zero priority.

The OP does not claim that modification of damage matters. It claims modification of BP matters.

Those cases where the move's damage can be modified and it's not a BP modification are not following on the rules in the OP, full stop.

I didn't mean to offend you, I am sorry that I did, and it was just me misinterpreting your post. Anyway I have just read The Reptile's post, and it has clarified a number of things for me (I didn't know that BP wasn't directly affected by weather for example). His solution seems far better/efficient and allows my dream of artwork featuring Excadrill on a bulldozer to come into fruition >:D, and it accounts for all of the scenarios which I tried to avoid/was not fully read-up on, and you have also seconded those clarifications. I apologise for dragging this on unneccesarily, and I am grateful for you being patient with my ignorance. I am now fixing the OP so that it accounts for these changes.

As for Frost Breath and Storm Throw, the reason they are not banned ATM is due to their poor distribution. If they ever prove overcentralising/broken, I will ban them alongside Mud Slap, but I want to see how big an effect they have on the viability of 'mons like Jynx, Pangoro and Regice before I bring them up as suspect points (atm, the things I listed in my post about suspects are of higher priority for discussion imo until the meta has evolved a little more).

Pikachuun could you modify your code so that it matches what is layed out in The Reptile's post here (this shouldn't take much work as it only effects a handful of move(s), but idk how you implemented the original code/which bits of the code are affected by the change). Thank you :)

===============================================================================

As a side note and a piece of good news, Nineage has put the metagame on his server at eos.psim.us, so there is another place that it can now be played! I will tag both you and Snaquaza when I hear back from Pikachuun regarding the change so that you can implement it onto your respective servers.

 

[Ghoul King]

Let me just write up a revised, more organized list.

Revised and organized list

Moves unaffected because they have increased priority
Quick Attack
Mach Punch
Aqua Jet
Bullet Punch
Ice Shard
Shadow Sneak
Vacuum Wave
Sucker Punch
ExtremeSpeed
Fake Out
Feint
Water Shuriken

Moves unaffected because they have decreased priority
Focus Punch
Avalanche
Revenge
Circle Throw
Dragon Tail
Vital Throw

Moves unaffected because their BP is variable
Rollout
Ice Ball
Magnitude
Fling
Brine
Stomp
Steamroller
Body Slam
Dragon Rush
Flying Press
Phantom Force
Wake Up Slap
Smelling Salts
Hex
Venoshock
Pursuit
Stored Power
Knock Off
Payback
Assurance
Punishment
Weather Ball
Return
Frustration
Spit Up
Beat Up
Triple Kick
Trump Card
Eruption
Water Spout
Gyro Ball
Electro Ball
Acrobatics
Fury Cutter
Echoed Voice
Round
Present
Natural Gift
Low Kick
Grass Knot
Heavy Slam
Heat Crash
Wring Out
Crush Grip
Flail
Reversal
Fire Pledge
Water Pledge
Grass Pledge

Moves unaffected because they ignore the normal damage formula
Super Fang
Psywave
Sheer Cold
Fissure
Guillotine
Horn Drill
Counter
Mirror Coat
Metal Burst
Bide
Seismic Toss
Night Shade
Dragon Rage
Sonic Boom
Endeavor
Final Gambit

For reference, I specifically removed Earthquake (which is kind of silly to mention anyway, since it's already 100 BP), Bulldoze, Hurricane, Solar Beam, Gust, Thunder, Twister, Smack Down, Surf, and Whirlpool, since those are the only moves removed from the list if you scale it back to "modifications to BP".

Hell, I can change the code. It just needs the removed exceptions removed.

 {
        name: "Move Equality",
        section: "Other Metagames",
        ruleset: ['Pokemon', 'Standard', 'Team Preview', 'Swagger Clause', 'Baton Pass Clause'],
        banlist: ['Uber', 'Soul Dew', 'Gengarite', 'Kangaskhanite', 'Lucarionite', 'Salamencite', 'Metagrossite', 'Landorus', 'Mud Slap'],
        onModifyMove: function (move, pokemon) {
            //Account for all moves affected by minimize, terrains/weathers, or two-turn moves (besides earthquake and dragon rush as they're already 100 BP)
            var forbid = ['stomp', 'steamroller', 'bodyslam', 'flyingpress', 'phantomforce', 'shadowforce'];
            if (!move.priority && !move.basePowerCallback && !move.onBasePower && move.basePower && move.category !== 'Status' && forbid.indexOf(move.id) === -1) move.basePower = 100;
            if (!move.priority && move.multihit) {
                if (typeof(move.multihit) === 'number') {
                    move.basePower = 100/move.multihit;
                } else {
                    move.basePower = 100/move.multihit[1];
                }
            }
        }
    },

Done! Hey Snaquaza new version of the Move Equality code.

----

Something I've talked with the Reptile a little bit about already is that PP is going to tend to be a lot higher in Move Equality, since weaker moves tend to have more PP and here the only reason to not use one of these high PP moves is if you want the side effect of a lower PP move more. For instance: why run Giga Drain when Absorb has more than twice the PP?

 

[Martin]

Tagging Nineage. The new code can be found in Ghoul King's post above this one.

Also yeah. If you have an equivalent with more PP, it invalidates other moves. There are a handful of 'mons which get Giga Drain but not Mega Drain or Absorb, which is kinda annoying.

Pressure will be good in this meta for that reason I think. If you can make your opponent use an extra (1*(no. turns alive)) PP, its great as it means they have less uses of a 64 PP move. I could see stall wars lasting a lot longer due to there being no struggle wars to deal with for much longer.

Trapping with Fire Spin, Infestation and Whirlpool is much more common now due to them being some of the better moves, and this is definitely of benefit to all playstyles (stall gets 100BP move which traps, damages turn-for-turn and means that you can condition things which can't beat you but heal up on you to not heal up, and I can see a far greater rate of stallbreaking as well a-la Magma Storm Heatran). I'm interested to see what other developments there are.

 

[Skankovich]

Durant seems pretty nice in this meta, as where in standard metas it doesn't hit harder than normal wallbreakers due to the low BP of its moves, here competing wallbreakers have had their power reduced while Durant's has increased. For example:

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Rock Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's pretty huge. Only has one answer in the form of like, phys def Mega Scizor with a set of bug bite/iron head/rock smash/crunch, and even then it's 2hko'd after rocks if Durant gets the 50% chance of a Rock Smash def drop. Also if it really wants a reliable move it can run Aerial Ace, which still hits pretty hard with hustle- that is, about as hard as Talonflame's STAB Brave Bird. Too bad it's just below 110 speed, but still very speedy for such a powerful wallbreaker.

 

[Akumeoy]

Something I've talked with the Reptile a little bit about already is that PP is going to tend to be a lot higher in Move Equality, since weaker moves tend to have more PP and here the only reason to not use one of these high PP moves is if you want the side effect of a lower PP move more. For instance: why run Giga Drain when Absorb has more than twice the PP?

Indeed; this is going to make things even harder on stall, I suspect -- beyond the higher damage-per-move in this meta, they're no longer trying to stall out PP on Close Combats and Fire Blasts and Stone Edges, but Power-Up Punches, Hidden Powers, and Rock Tombs; against teams that run a fair amount of recovery, this puts a big dent in stall's ability to outlast the opponent.

Pressure will be good in this meta for that reason I think. If you can make your opponent use an extra (1*(no. turns alive)) PP, its great as it means they have less uses of a 64 PP move. I could see stall wars lasting a lot longer due to there being no struggle wars to deal with for much longer.

The only 'mons with Pressure that have the bulk and typing to actually drain a significant amount of PP are Suicune and Zapdos, and I really fail to see how a dramatic increase in available PP makes Pressure better, because while they might feasibly fully drain out a low-PP move before, now they often need to last an exceedingly long time to do that. Zapdos is still probably good -- hell, its unique STAB combo could let it run Tbolt+Air Cutter+Heat Wave+HP Ice for a bulky attacking set, or removing one of those for Roost, idk -- but Pressure is definitely not more relevant in this meta.

Anyways, on the topic of threats: If you want to run something on your team other than Mega Venusaur to act as a reliable Keldeo switch-in, your best bet is probably Cresselia:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Cresselia: 163-193 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage

^ Avoids the 2HKO even accounting for Scald burn damage. It can also avoid the OHKO from one of Beedrill's Bug-type moves:

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Cresselia: 364-432 (81.9 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In return, its Psyshock deals heavy damage to both, or it can catch Mega Beedrill on the swich with Thunder Wave.