Here's the problem. Walling half the metagame is not centralizing. OHKOing or 2HKOing and outspeeding is. Salamence required an almost dedicated check to revenge kill, or amazing prediction. For instance, I ran a ScarfMie with Ice Beam pretty much to OHKO Salamence after one DD (which, by the way, it failed to do with a Yache Berry). It could then proceed to wreck a team with a diverse movepool, a STAB resisted only by steel types, 400+ attack, and 350+ speed. But I digress. We're talking about defensive "threats".For some reason, whenever I see another
Defensive Centered Metagame: It is much easier to have a capable offensive Pokémon than a defensive one. On Serebii’s list of Pokémon with the highest defensive stat Hippowdon comes in 38th place and Bronzong comes in 39th. Now with higher places are 6 ubers and a few OU’s such as Skarmory and Gliscor and others used for offense rather than defense like Metagross but many of the Pokémon above 38th and 39th place are Pokémon that people would never consider for an OU team such as the rock-steel Bastiodon, the terrible Magcargo, and the flawed Cloyster. A defensive Pokémon is limited not only by stats but by move-set, and of course typing. However when those three aspects come together you have a Pokémon that is truly a wall, nigh unbeatable to what it is supposed to counter.
In fact, there are some Pokémon so defensive that they can counter about half the metagame. Almost no one is getting past Blissey firing off special attack moves and you still have to be pretty dang strong to get past it with physical moves. Hippowdon can shrug off basically any unboosted physical attack and become even more defensive with Curse.
Now I have a hard time really tying this together, but I believe that the metagame is centered around who you have to get past rather than who you have to counter. Let’s try it this way: the offense of one Pokémon cannot limit other Pokémon as much as defense can. The stronger attack of Lucario does not limit a Zangoose with a lesser base stat because if it wins the speed tie, it is knocking out Luke. However a Zangoose is limited by a Hippowdon’s mammoth defenses because unboosted Zangoose cannot hope to do more than half-health. Tying this back to the ice-cube analogy the defensive giants are huge bulky ice cubes that disallow the usefulness of many otherwise capable offensive threats such as Zangoose, Ursaring, Alakazam, etc… The offensive Pokémon on top are there because they fit into the niche of having the tools to get past the big defenders, not necessarily because they are the best attackers.
I’m really getting long-winded now so let’s wrap this up quickly. Now I’m not saying the metagame is biased because I hate all defensive Pokémon. I say it is biased because while we’re OK with banning a Salamence for being able to wreck over half the metagame we hardly consider Blissey when it can counter over half the Pokémon in the game. If you hope to uncentralize the metagame completely I believe you would have to ban Zapdos, Hippowdon, Blissey and Chansey, Bronzong, Celebi, Jirachi, Heatran, Vaporeon, and whoever else is a solid counter to over a third of attackers. With them gone there would be room for lots of attackers to prove their strength and the metagame would not be one of leftovers but one of choice items and life orbs.
Obviously different Pokemon will affect the metagame in different ways, and centralize it to different extents.Thank you, but I knew how Electivire and Infernape work, Sir. And I may repeat: We are not talking about them at all.
No one is arguing that Blissey is broken... (at least not me) >___>
I'm just trying to make people realize how the metagame works and that there always are some few pokemon (or moves or items) that shape it to a great extend. It's just a question of taste which ones you want to shape the metagame and which ones you don't.
EDIT: My objective would be, btw that some people stop telling me stuff like "Lol, XY obviously needs to be banned, because you cannot bla bla bla". That's just bullshit. Say "XY is banned because we didn't like how we needed to play with it" or don't comment at all.
You are either a fucking retard, or a troll. Looks to be option A since you went through all the effort. What you are suggesting is that anything that can sweep is uber. I mean holy fuck, people can sweep with things like Bilbarel under the right circumstances, DOES THAT MAKE HIM UBER?? How the hell do you think this shitty gimmick Beedrill does? I mean really, it did about 60% damage to that Garchomp, who isn't even a wall or incredibly bulky. WOAH SO IMBA, IT CANT EVEN TAKE OUT A SWEEPER.......Not to mention the numerous other things like Skarmory or Rotom-A who are happy to Roar/smash it.A little anecdote before I explain my next theory. I was on Shoddy a while ago during a time when Smogon’s section was out. Most people were forced to use Colin’s. This was after Garchomp was banned and enough players had readjusted their teams expecting its absence. Needless to say Colin got many people asking him why Garchomp was not banned, to which the clever and, well, let’s say high-on-his-horse Canadian replied, “Why is Beedrill not banned?” Now I don’t think that Colin was at all saying Beedrill was as powerful as Garchomp but remember the arguments that banned Garchomp or if you don’t remember think of the arguments that resulted in Salamence being banned: it’s too strong, with only one turn to set up it can destroy my entire team, it’s unpredictable, etc. Well, if you’re clever like Colin you could come up with a similar and very sound sounding argument for banning Beedrill. For example, with access to Substitute, Swarm, Swords Dance, and a Salac Berry it could easily overpower any team (Don’t believe that Beedrill can do such things? YouTube Beedrill sweep).
This is actually incorrect. Take Rampardos, with the second-highest Attack stat in the game, and the highest in OU - an Adamant, max Attack Rampardos fails to OHKO Blissey with STAB 150BP Head Smash without stealth rock, or with stealth rock and two turns of leftovers (on the switch-in + protect). Or take Infernape, with STAB SE Close Combat off 104 base Attack. On the specially-based mix set, it fails to OHKO Blissey, even with SR, if it has lost its LO (Knock Off support). So since Blissey is merely 2HKO'd by most non-fighting type physical moves (since I'll admit the previous scenario is somewhat unlikely), it can use Wish on the switch-in, then either cripple the physical attacker with either T-wave or Toxic and heal of a lot of the damage with Wish, then switch out, or switch out straightaway, passing Wish to a teammate. Blissey takes zero skill to play, as if you're up against any kind of special attacker bar Crocune or similar, or SubCM Jirachi or similar, said special attacker will be forced to switch out. And since Crocune/SubCM Jirachi etc take time to set up, Blissey can still perform any support roles required of her (i.e. pass Wish, cure status with Aromatherapy, or whatever).No, blissey can't really kill anything, and you can easily switch in something and just use ANY PHYSICAL ATTACK EVER (exaggeration but you know) to kill it.
That's how it plays out for Hypno. Again, which one is a better counter? Cress to Mence, or Hypno to Breloom?I am a 252/252 Bold Hypno! I am the only true counter to Breloom!
Oh shit! A Hypno who can't be Spored and OHKO's with Psychic! i better let someone else handle this!
PSYCHIC'D!
Psych fool. My trainer already called me back. You're in for a suprise.
YEAH! MY TURN! RAWR!!! Oh crap. It used psychic. lololol stupid pedophile doesn't realize im immune to that weak stuff. looks like trainer his trainer has to call him back and you know what THAT means.
Shit!!! NO NO NO NO!!! Please don't pursuit!!!!!!! no! why did i listen to those people in that thread who said i was more of a counter than cress?
This is actually incorrect. Take Rampardos, with the second-highest Attack stat in the game, and the highest in OU - an Adamant, max Attack Rampardos fails to OHKO Blissey with STAB 150BP Head Smash without stealth rock, or with stealth rock and two turns of leftovers (on the switch-in + protect). Or take Infernape, with STAB SE Close Combat off 104 base Attack. On the specially-based mix set, it fails to OHKO Blissey, even with SR, if it has lost its LO (Knock Off support). Obvious troll is obvious. On how many occasions do you see your Infernape get its item Knocked off? I probably see this move once in every 50 or so battles. Knock Off would have been a great move, but the metagame is currently too fast paced to make this move worth a slot on most teams. I mean you going to say Gengar can beat Scizor with Hidden Power [Fire] with Knock Off support removing his Choice Band, and consider this a viable argument? The point is, Infernape is going to have its Life Orb, and will OHKO [extremely close to 100%] even 252 HP / Def Bold Blissey with no Attack EVs. So since Blissey is merely 2HKO'd by most non-fighting type physical moves (since I'll admit the previous scenario is somewhat unlikely), it can use Wish on the switch-in, then either cripple the physical attacker with either T-wave or Toxic and heal of a lot of the damage with Wish, then switch out, or switch out straightaway, passing Wish to a teammate. Blissey takes zero skill to play, as if you're up against any kind of special attacker bar Crocune or similar, or SubCM Jirachi or similar, said special attacker will be forced to switch out. And since Crocune/SubCM Jirachi etc take time to set up, Blissey can still perform any support roles required of her (i.e. pass Wish, cure status with Aromatherapy, or whatever). Except Blissey not only gets walled badly as Thunderwave or Toxic leaves you open to things like Swampert or Steels, who freely set up on you, as you do pathetic damage back. Oh, lets not forget how he does against SubCM Jirachi, or Bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados. Blissey becomes pure set up fodder, and quite possibly loses you the game.
I am assuming you are trolling? (o)___(x)Why are we discussing the viability of ScarfCress? It's uncounterable, and that's all that matters
Well, that is subjective enough. ;)Obviously different Pokemon will affect the metagame in different ways, and centralize it to different extents.
You seem to be implying that banning Salamence for unpredictability and power was an excuse to change the metagame because people "didn't like how we needed to play with it." That's probably true; people didn't like having an un-checkable threat.
But that's no different from allowing something like Mewtwo or Kyogre in OU. They are banned because people would not like the fact that they would be un-checkable.
There are reasons why Pokemon aren't fit for the metagame, and people won't like the metagame for those reasons. And that's why stuff is banned, to make an ENJOYABLE METAGAME.