Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Chilli Dewd]

Give that to Typhlosion and we can start exchanging numbers.

But in all seriousness, we do not need to suspect Garmanitan. The thing just hits too hard and has too much raw firepower (or ice power if you will.) Even without Tera, I don't see how that thing doesn't skyrocket to Ubers.

Ok, im tired of the classic "pls unban (fav mon locked in ubers) powercreep makes it fain down here, it would be fine and balanced". While this can end up being true in some cases like Darkrai, this wont apply to everyone of them. There is also the issue that we have a TON of strong titans in the tier already. Darkrai, Zamazenta, Roaring Moon via suspect test, Iron Valiant, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Tornadus Therian, Tapu Lele, Ogerpon Wellspring, Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor, Mega Latias, the list goes on. So adding more to the pot might end up ruining the dish(tier). Not that we shouldn't try, but we should be more in depth about it, rather than just "unban my favorite pokemon".

(Also no, Scovillain deserves it more)

 

[Aesiro13]

Ok, im tired of the classic "pls unban (fav mon locked in ubers) powercreep makes it fain down here, it would be fine and balanced". While this can end up being true in some cases like Darkrai, this wont apply to everyone of them. There is also the issue that we have a TON of strong titans in the tier already. Darkrai, Zamazenta, Roaring Moon via suspect test, Iron Valiant, Gouging Fire, Raging Bolt, Tornadus Therian, Tapu Lele, Ogerpon Wellspring, Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor, Mega Latias, the list goes on. So adding more to the pot might end up ruining the dish(tier). Not that we shouldn't try, but we should be more in depth about it, rather than just "unban my favorite pokemon".

I agree with this point. The only way having so many hard-hitting monsters in a single tier would be OK is if we have super chunky mons from Ubers that can take similar punishment, such as , which ultimately spirals into a bunch of unbans and turning NDOU into budget NDUbers.

 

[Patar136]

I also agree with the sentiment that just because something is bad in Ubers doesn't mean we test it in OU. At least, that alone isn't enough. Because Reshiram is pretty terrible but should not be allowed to exist in OU since it just adds nothing that positive. And it is probably broken.

Probably.

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

I agree with the above three comments. I do not like the changes we've seen in the tier in the last few weeks. We don't need yet more [insert ubers HO mon] in this tier. It's unstable enough as is with the sheer amount of offense. We don't need more.

Everything was going fine until we started listening to the people whose goal was to get their favorite Ubers mon unbanned, as opposed to making a healthier tier.

And no, don't bring back Kingambit. The tier instantly got better when it was gone, just like Gholdengo. Broken checks broken is not a good way to run a metagame.

 

[Patar136]

There's something to be said that power creep does eventually mean that things that were Uber "could" eventually become tolerable for OU. But what we all need to remember, this is a trend, not a rule.

Speed Boost Blaziken and Mew were Uber for three generations in a row in various generations, Mega Mawile, Scolipede, Greninja and Celebi for one, Deoxys Defense and Darkrai for several as examples. Eventually, power creep hit these folks and they eventually reached a point where they were no longer overbearing to varying degrees. But they did not all become tolerable for OU at the same time and they all became tolerable at different means, whether that meant being outclassed, nerfed or just not being a presence that warped tiers.

It's not unreasonable to say that in the far future, things like Landorus I, Palafin, Genesect, Chien Pao, Iron Bundle.... they might end up joining OU for real. Power creep does catch up to a lot of Pokemon after a certain point. Something CAN drop to OU after enough time. What it really comes down to is whether or not specific meta game changes allow a certain Pokemon to not be broken. If Palafin for example had to make a kill to change form instead of just switch out, who's to say that it would be nearly as powerful as it is now? What if Chien Pat's ability to lower defenses was nerfed substantially? Maybe Landorus I faces a meta game where a new special wall is everywhere that it can't break reliably. Point is, metas do evolve and eventually it can reach points where something that was dominant no longer isn't.

Does this mean ANYTHING can drop to OU? Most certainly not. Nobody would complain if Mewtwo, Ho-oh, Rayquaza, Arceus, Zekrom, Xerneas..... stayed far far away from OU for the rest of time. Some Pokemon are just designed to not be allowed in OU. They are simply too strong and don't have sufficient checks without irreversibly warping OU into discount Ubers, or UU Ubers if you prefer. I mean, eventually Shaymin-Sky might reach a point where it is ''probably'' fine for OU.... but anyone who has had to play against Shaymin Sky knows how stupid it can be in a meta game, so that demon isn't dropping for a very, very long time, if at all.

We don't hold National Dex beholden to allow niches for Ubers folks that fall to power creep. It's more that it could happen if enough conditions allow for it.

 

[boppydop!]

Will you assume there will be a point where GF realizes how bad the powercreep is? In this scenario, you're saying GF just keeps making more gens more offensive that the next, but in my opinion I think at some point they will cut back on the offensive generations and create something a little more passive. However, I'm not particularly sure about Lando I or Bundle's power in general(as I wasn't there during the time they were allowed), but I can understand why you would think that.
Realistically though, if GF makes a mon tankier than Eviolite Chansey, we all won't be playing anymore; at that point the franchise has completely shifted to catering to power for fans and not competitive standards and I think that aspect will die out by then.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0+ SpD Eviolite Chansey: 237-281 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(edit: didn't notice i had chan evs wrong but w/o boosts this is still rlly strong)

I think you have completely forgotten the idea that trends can fall. Obviously, a company's economics can skyrocket and continue rising in a trend, as you say, but the inevitable market crash will probably happen "at some point" and will absolutely plummet it's worth. Everything has an end, and that is the true rule you're ignoring.
All the mons you'v mentioned as examples is when the Pokemon meta wasn't necessarily as offensive, and now they're balanced. Mega Mawile is set back by its bad speed, bad defenses to setup and common weaknesses(meaning it can't really setup safely anyway). Gren is honestly quite mid now, mostly because of better defensive mons such as pex and the Battle Bond nerf. I don't really know about the other ones but Scolipede being Ubers has to be a joke, right?
In the idea that certain Ubers pokemon will be nerfed is based entirely on prediction, and from our experience we can't predict GF about competitive viability at all. You can't say we should unban whatever just because maybe it'll get a nerf. That's unreasonable as a statement itself.
In consensus, powercreep in pokemon is very real( haha), but eventually there will probably be a limit, and you can't really make the argument of unbanning obviously broken Ubers pokemon by backing them up with the fragile statement that they eventually will.

 

[Patar136]

I think you missed my point. I'm not suggesting that we should just test obviously broken Pokemon for the sake of it. Like I don't want Mewtwo in OU just because there might potentially be some OU Pokemon that could deal with it. That isn't enough. Like there are NU Pokemon that can probably blank some Ubers folks situationally but that are otherwise doo doo garbage.... looking at you Parasect.

Also the idea that Ubers Pokemon can end up nerfed is not entirely based around prediction. Look at both Aegislash and Darkrai. Both of which were nerfed and ended up falling into OU. It's not unreasonable to suggest it can happen again.

Also no, Scolipede was not a joke. It was banned from OU in XY. Look it up.

Of course Game Freak could suddenly decide to make less offensive Pokemon, but I somehow doubt that. Offensive power creep seems more likely to spread than defensive power creep. But even if it did somehow become more defensive, that only means that indeed Pokemon that were overbearing once could indeed become tolerable in the future.

With some limits though, on that we can agree. I don't need to see the Pelipper/Torkoal weather war get replaced by the Groudon/Kyogre weather war, as funny as that sounds. At a certain point, logic has to take precedence.

 

[Avira]

I think you missed my point. I'm not suggesting that we should just test obviously broken Pokemon for the sake of it. Like I don't want Mewtwo in OU just because there might potentially be some OU Pokemon that could deal with it. That isn't enough. Like there are NU Pokemon that can probably blank some Ubers folks situationally but that are otherwise doo doo garbage.... looking at you Parasect.

Also the idea that Ubers Pokemon can end up nerfed is not entirely based around prediction. Look at both Aegislash and Darkrai. Both of which were nerfed and ended up falling into OU. It's not unreasonable to suggest it can happen again.

Also no, Scolipede was not a joke. It was banned from OU in XY. Look it up.

Quoted for posterity. You can never back out of this.

Look here and see the UUBL tag: https://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/scolipede/

This shows you weren't even playing the tier during Gen 6, so you shouldn't make up stuff that never happened. Scolipede having an Uber analysis didn't mean it was literally an Uber mon, just that it had limited, if any, niche in OU.

Landorus-Incarnate as is right now is far above the power level of OU and is nowhere even close to being one of the best Uber candidates to drop to any version of Natdex OU, especially current gen Natdex OU where it gets Nasty Plot and would be even stronger than ever.

 

[Patar136]

Well shit, I guess it actually wasn't.

Well, it has been a while since I played Gen VI OU. In any case, Hoopa Unbound was banned from OU in XY. So hey, that takes Scolipede's fictional place.

Even so, no need to be a jerk about it.

 

[boppydop!]

I think Hoopa's ban was maybe because the meta back then wasn't so offensive(please, do correct me if I'm wrong). Perhaps Hoopa's monstrous 160 and 170 offensive stats could be put into better use, but now, in NDSVOU, it's speed tier is smashed into bits. This does further prove powercreep's effect, but I don't think there will be a point to where stuff like Genesect could be put into normal OU(coverage galore!).
(Maybe just personal bias but I think Lando-I sus would be cool., not on a competitive level but it seems largely fun to play.)

 

[Patar136]

TBF, various people are right about why we should be cautious around Lando I.

Because it is a very potent balance breaker. It smashes through balance teams pretty effectively. Until more special walls, good special walls, get added to the game it's uncertain if we could reasonably test it in OU.

 

[boppydop!]

Mons that can afford running 4A are usually immense balance breakers, like say boots/band Zama and Mega-Diancie. They crush balance because of their ability to have a move for everything, and can hit everything at least effectively. Lando-I would be no exception. I was just saying, he looks really fun to play(as most 4A mons are; you just click).
On another note, and gladly changing the subject, Oculars mentioned this in NDOU chat the other day:

Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Waves
- Toxic

Originally the last two moves were different, but I didn't see a need for them. You could run Outrage, Superpower or Stone Edge if you're worried about losing Thousand Arrow's pp.

Thousand Arrows, the main move it'll be spamming, is extremely effective versus the aforementioned likes of balance, because of its affect. It hits ungrounded pokemon for neutral on their first hit, and then applies the Smack Down effect. Besides middling defensive grass types(which we don't have in this tier currently), it can spam the move because it really has no switch ins. It hits ground immunes like , , and , common balance/bulky mons like and and has huge chip on and , which don't have reliable recovery.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Landorus-Therian: 130-154 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 204-242 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ground Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 44+ Def Ferrothorn: 170-202 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This mon is a beast. I've been wholly fascinated by it in the past week because of how effective it is. If you manage to build a strong core around it, you can allow it to Tera Ground first turn every game, which truly unleashes havoc alongside it's above average speed tier. In no way am I a good builder, but I've been using this so far and it's been doing great: https://pokepast.es/c76eb207edbb5bf5

Zygarde is a total counter to any slow or balance centered playstyle. What do you think?
Load this against Ineros

 

[Oculars]

On another note, and gladly changing the subject, Oculars mentioned this in NDOU chat the other day:

Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Waves
- Toxic

Love this mon, I slightly prefer ada over jolly as it turns those barely 3hko rolls into clean 2hkos in a lot of scenarios, such as vs defensive lando with rocks up and a bit of chip, mixed def mola and ferrothorn with no hazards up. Being at 329 is also a nice speed tier barely outspeeding +nature base 100s, jolly is also valid despite being slightly weaker as it can outrun the base 110s and even things like serperior.

The tier right now lacks a lot of the defensive grasses like tangrowth that used to be around in gen8 making it prime to be picked apart by zydog. Your only real switchins to this mon in the tier are dondozo, and rillaboom (tangrowth and hydrapple too but these mons are fake). Full pdef Landorus Therian can check it from full hp only, However after taking rocks once (88%) it now is guarantee 2hko'd by tera ground tarrows + rocks, making it a very shaky check especially considering how youre going to use your lando for more than just checking zydog in a game. Apart from tarrows being rediculously hard to switch into, having banded extreme speed is always super nice and being able to freely slot great utility such as glare/toxic for the rare cases where you do fight a defensive grass, yeah rillaboom and the odd hydrapple might be able to come in on tarrows but neither one appreciates having to eat a toxic and get put on a timer. This mon is the textbook definition of a glass cannon but its easier than ever to enable with how common regen slow pivots are and dont even get me started on trying to switch in to a banded tarrows + future sight cause that simply isnt happening. This is a mon that can force meaningful progress every single time it hits the field dont sleep on it.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I have played some nice HOs Recently but idk, Raging bolt feels odd to me. Speed tier isn't great, but it offensively hits a whole damn lot of things. Because power creep havent done It's Job properly, There is no real fast, meta and splashable Pokémon that has An easy day against it. Clod is a nice counter, but dies *painfully* to a CM dragonium Z set, And if unaware, it just gets dmeteor'd on again And again. Proto spa Is eeeevil and basically kills anything, EVEN UNDER LIGHT SCREEN, and this Is unacceptable. Speed not great Is the only thing keeping this thing From qb but bulk + 70 BP STAB prio makes this mon pretty broken. Imo. I mean, when you're testing a former uber mon, It's not supposed to be a second-choice Dragon in Sun or Screen teams. when it Is not running Dragonium, Tera reinforces its defensive profile. Tera fairy mostly, but Also water sometimes, make this thing Too much to handle. And if you're running some passive tox thing, it DOES run sub so you're dead anyways. Also, the eventual Eterrain rising voltage + tclap sucks, Too. And the Scarf volt switch. And specs volt switch. Bro doesnt Even need coverage (i dont remember if it has any) to free win, ways Too often

 

[Patar136]

I just want to mention that while I don't think Raging Bolt is broken it is very good and definitely my favorite of the DLC Pokemon added to OU. My favorite set to run is Substitute Three attacks because you get lots of opportunities to set up a substitute and turn a lot of Pokemon into set up fodder. But other awesome sets include Dragonium Z with Calm Mind which forces its way through a lot of stuff, Calm Mind three attacks, various Tera abusers and I swear I saw somebody use Heavy Duty Boots on Raging Bolt on ladder. This dinosaur can cook, just needs the right partners.

Also worth noting that none of the ground types are entirely 100% safe fighting this Pokemon at full HP and that if given the right tools it can break past its checks. Iron Threads and Clodsire are probably the best since the former has the Mega Steelix typing (who itself while niche is also good against Bolt) that allows you to resist both STABs and against non Dragonium Z sets Clodsire can hold off Raging Bolts attacks (but repeated draco meteors sting since unaware makes you take extra damage, and under sun it's even worse.)

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 228-268 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The ability to match up against a lot of relevant threats in the metagame plus its good characteristics means that Raging Bolt plays a very valuable role in OU that must be accounted for. Let's also not forget that things that you would think can beat it like Clefable, Blissey and Ferrothorn are vulnerable to getting taunted... though at least Clefable stacks moonblast to deny free set up non-unaware sets.

In terms of teras, there are also a lot more possibilities mentioned. Fairy is great defensively since it makes you immune to enemy dragons while flying provides a ground immunity and fighting resistance (since scarf Urshifu has to use close combat to do meaningful damage to win the unfavorable match up otherwise), Tera Grass gives a ground resist and means that against rain teams you can now beat the one enemy that gives you trouble, Mega Swampert, Tera Fire allows you to fry Ferrothorn instantly, Tera Ice gives bolt beam coverage and can be used to strategically remove certain enemies like Landorus, Gliscor and Garchomp among others, Tera Steel ensures you can beat most variants of Tapu Lele and finally Tera Electric or Dragon can be used at the cost of defensive utility to instead power up your STAB types.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

Roaring Moon has not been unbanned. Anyways moving forward I don't see too many needed suspect tests besides dream stan Ogerpon-wellspring as it just is very restrictive.

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

Roaring Moon has not been unbanned. Anyways moving forward I don't see too many needed suspect tests besides dream stan Ogerpon-wellspring as it just is very restrictive.

Thank god. I can finally enjoy the tier again.

I mostly agree with the above comment in that I don't see the need for many more suspect tests at the moment. And I certainly think we don't need any more unban suspect tests. I just went through the list of NDUbers mons and I do not believe any of them belong in NDOU.

This madness where we are trying to unban Ubers mons has got to stop before we do irreversible harm to the tier. Our actions have very real consequences for the metagame's health, and just because you (the proverbial reader, for clarity) want to have a clickmachine that 6-0s off of team preview doesn't mean that everyone wants to fight against it. Everything in Ubers was put there for a reason.

Something being bad in Ubers means nothing for its fitness for NDOU. Bad in ubers means bad compared to what? Primal Groudon? Mega Rayquaza? Zacian-Crowned? Is that really the litmus test you want to use to determine NDOU fitness? This argument for unbanning is ridiculous.

Roaring Moon was the least bad thing we could have tried to unban, and it was still extremely broken for the tier. We don't need to go further.

I can see why you'd want to ban. It feels really dumb to play against it and everything that walls it is really passive. I don't feel super strongly about a ban for it one way or another, honestly. The tier is playable with it here, but I think the game might be a little bit better without it. And I don't think banning it would cause some great harm to the tier. I could be on board with a suspect for it for sure.

I think we have bigger fish to fry, but I'd rather fry a small fish than fry no fish.

 

[about15guys]

moon's gone

anyways I'm honestly pretty happy with how ND meta is currently, there's some stuff that's definitely stupid (cough cough waterpon) but I don't have any major issues with the tier. however that doesn't mean I don't want any suspects currently, as there's some pokemon I think deserve to be looked at


This pokemon's pretty stupid. Grass/Water is respectable defensively, and its able to set up on like half the tier with swords dance and just start clicking buttons. The last slot on this guy is pretty crazy and can drastically change what its checked by, on top of just being able to nautrally outspeed a large portion of the metagame and deal insane damage with cudgel + mask boost.


yeah we did this one before but I could fathom a world in which we sus zama. I'm not annoyed that its in the tier, but since we just nuked like half our ghost types it feels like idbp runs over a lot of teams on preview, especially with good use of tera

honestly that's about it, for the most part I think the tier's in a good spot, and I could definitely live with this current meta for the forseeable future. I think the current ubers list is good and there's nothing I think would be remotely balanced in ou, so please focus on dealing with some stinky mons before adding any more

 

[Payasiko]

I would like to discuss the current state of Moody and hear your opinion on whether it should remain banned in this tier.

Since gen8, Moody no longer affects evasion, which was the main reason it was considered anti-competitive in the past. The removal of the Dynamax mechanic, which allowed for increased boosts, also doesn't favor Moody users.

In the current meta, as long as Baton Pass remains banned, I don't see how Moody can be a problem. First of all, every Moody user is RU right now. Besides, power creep has introduced many mons that can immediately respond to a Moody user, including those with Quark Drive/Protosynthesis and Zamazenta, which receive an instant boost. Furthermore, there are other offensive alternatives, such as moves that ignore stat changes (Surging Strikes in Urshifu, Sacred Sword in Boulder, Kart, and H-Samu, Flower Trick in Meowscarada...).

On the defensive side, there are numerous responses. Gen9 has brought reliable new unaware users (Clodsire, Dondozo, Skel), and there are still good phazers (Ting, Skarm). Additionally, in the current meta, several Pokémon can use Haze (like Clod, Pex, or Fini).

Unlike other abilities like Speed Boost, there are no Moody users that can learn Stored Power or Power Trip (except Smeargle), significantly reducing the possibility of abusing stat boosts. Moreover, classic Moody sets have a lesser impact in this tier. Disable may be effective against choice items, but it doesn't affect booster energy users too much. On the other hand, new multi-hit moves like Tachyon Cutter help deal with Substitute.

In conclusion, I believe Moody in NatDex is not as threatening as to justify its ban. What are your thoughts?

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

I would like to discuss the current state of Moody and hear your opinion on whether it should remain banned in this tier.

Since gen8, Moody no longer affects evasion, which was the main reason it was considered anti-competitive in the past. The removal of the Dynamax mechanic, which allowed for increased boosts, also doesn't favor Moody users.

In the current meta, as long as Baton Pass remains banned, I don't see how Moody can be a problem. First of all, every Moody user is RU right now. Besides, power creep has introduced many mons that can immediately respond to a Moody user, including those with Quark Drive/Protosynthesis and Zamazenta, which receive an instant boost. Furthermore, there are other offensive alternatives, such as moves that ignore stat changes (Surging Strikes in Urshifu, Sacred Sword in Boulder, Kart, and H-Samu, Flower Trick in Meowscarada...).

On the defensive side, there are numerous responses. Gen9 has brought reliable new unaware users (Clodsire, Dondozo, Skel), and there are still good phazers (Ting, Skarm). Additionally, in the current meta, several Pokémon can use Haze (like Clod, Pex, or Fini).

Unlike other abilities like Speed Boost, there are no Moody users that can learn Stored Power or Power Trip (except Smeargle), significantly reducing the possibility of abusing stat boosts. Moreover, classic Moody sets have a lesser impact in this tier. Disable may be effective against choice items, but it doesn't affect booster energy users too much. On the other hand, new multi-hit moves like Tachyon Cutter help deal with Substitute.

In conclusion, I believe Moody in NatDex is not as threatening as to justify its ban. What are your thoughts?

For a moment, I would like you to imagine your Tachyon Cutter failing to break sub on the first hit because your opponent got a lucky special defense boost the turn prior, and now the stat boosts snowball into an unwinnable nightmare. Your Haze mon gets OHKOed by the lucky SpA boost and now, you lost this game by no fault of your own.

This is the reality you are suggesting. Moody is too unpredictable and causes wins and losses based on RNG as opposed to player skill. I don't think that sounds like a fun metagame.

But if now is the time for ultra hot takes, I would like to participate.

I think we should suspect because AFAIK has no counters. I will rescind my argument if someone can provide me some viable ones.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

I would like to discuss the current state of Moody and hear your opinion on whether it should remain banned in this tier.

Since gen8, Moody no longer affects evasion, which was the main reason it was considered anti-competitive in the past. The removal of the Dynamax mechanic, which allowed for increased boosts, also doesn't favor Moody users.

In the current meta, as long as Baton Pass remains banned, I don't see how Moody can be a problem. First of all, every Moody user is RU right now. Besides, power creep has introduced many mons that can immediately respond to a Moody user, including those with Quark Drive/Protosynthesis and Zamazenta, which receive an instant boost. Furthermore, there are other offensive alternatives, such as moves that ignore stat changes (Surging Strikes in Urshifu, Sacred Sword in Boulder, Kart, and H-Samu, Flower Trick in Meowscarada...).

On the defensive side, there are numerous responses. Gen9 has brought reliable new unaware users (Clodsire, Dondozo, Skel), and there are still good phazers (Ting, Skarm). Additionally, in the current meta, several Pokémon can use Haze (like Clod, Pex, or Fini).

Unlike other abilities like Speed Boost, there are no Moody users that can learn Stored Power or Power Trip (except Smeargle), significantly reducing the possibility of abusing stat boosts. Moreover, classic Moody sets have a lesser impact in this tier. Disable may be effective against choice items, but it doesn't affect booster energy users too much. On the other hand, new multi-hit moves like Tachyon Cutter help deal with Substitute.

In conclusion, I believe Moody in NatDex is not as threatening as to justify its ban. What are your thoughts?

I'd like to point out the main reason moody is banned is not due to being broken (even though it is) it is banned due to being insanely uncompetetive get the right moody boost and you do basically whatever you want and it's just not good for the tier, no one wants more bullshit cheese that wins games that it shouldn't, we have enough of that already.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

But if now is the time for ultra hot takes, I would like to participate.

I think we should suspect because AFAIK has no counters. I will rescind my argument if someone can provide me some viable ones.

yo dude uh it dies to a big bite from Caterpie. In less joking fashion it's bulk is just terrible... It dies to basically any strong neutral hit you can't really beat it defensively but it's just that against any offensive team it just doesn't do much.

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

yo dude uh it dies to a big bite from Caterpie. In less joking fashion it's bulk is just terrible... It dies to basically any strong neutral hit you can't really beat it defensively but it's just that against any offensive team it just doesn't do much.

Given the definition of a counter being

Has the longevity to switch into repeated attacks and force it out

I can't think of any in NDOU. Doesn't feel healthy to negate whole teamstyles with a mon since there's no defensive counterplay. To be clear, I don't think it's necessarily overpowered, I just don't like how it completely shuts down all forms of a core playstyle.

But like I said. It was a really hot take, and I understand that the majority of people are not going to agree. I 100% respect that and am still very open to changing my opinion here when provided new evidence.

If nothing else I hope that this discussion leads to someone posting a viable counter I can use for this thing. I hate fat teams feeling like a matchup fish because of it.

 

[S0A0M0I0]

For a moment, I would like you to imagine your Tachyon Cutter failing to break sub on the first hit because your opponent got a lucky special defense boost the turn prior, and now the stat boosts snowball into an unwinnable nightmare. Your Haze mon gets OHKOed by the lucky SpA boost and now, you lost this game by no fault of your own.

This is the reality you are suggesting. Moody is too unpredictable and causes wins and losses based on RNG as opposed to player skill. I don't think that sounds like a fun metagame.

But if now is the time for ultra hot takes, I would like to participate.

I think we should suspect because AFAIK has no counters. I will rescind my argument if someone can provide me some viable ones.

How are we gonna suspect a mon thats not even on the VR...

 

[Eve L. Duehr]

How are we gonna suspect a mon thats not even on the VR...

I'm fully aware that it's a pipe dream. I'd like it banned, yes, and I think that would be good. But I know it almost certainly won't happen so I'm not gonna scream about it forever and ever. I'm gonna be focusing my effort on discussing the more realistic problems to solve, but I did want to at least say my piece about it, hear what others had to say, and maybe understand better why people feel the way they do about it.