Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Patar136]

I'm hesitant about Mega Metagross as well. While there are a lot of fire types in this tier, none of them exactly love switching into Metagross. DarmanitanDLuffy is also right in that there aren't a ton of ghosts and grounds, who haven't been banned, who can handle Metagross. Gengar can speed tie it and has good attacking prowess but it's not very good otherwise in this tier, is frail and vulnerable to Bullet Punch.

But the real problem I can see with Mega Metagross is agility. This is where it goes from dominant to overwhelming in my eyes. After an agility, Mega Metagross outruns most of the meta game (no pun intended.) With just three moves in STAB steel coverage, either Meteor Mash or Bullet Punch, Earthquake and a choice for last move.

Thunder Punch for Gyarados, Charizard, Dondozo, Greninja, Alomomola, Corviknight and Tornadus among others

Ice Punch for Landorus, Dragonite, Zapdos and Gliscor

Knock Off for opposing psychics, ghosts and for neutral coverage against most things with the benefit for item removal.

Psychic Coverage like Psychic Fangs or Zen Headbutt to really hit Great Tusk, Mega-Lopunny, Zamazenta, Urshifu.

Stone Edge to really destroy Charizard and Moltres while retaining good damage on Tornadus, Zapdos and others.

Fighting coverage for the few darks in this tier that might survive a Meteor Mash + Ursaluna.

A lot of so called, checks, will die to a coverage option or at the very least be crippled since it's immune to toxic and with Bullet Punch not even Paralysis is safe. The best status to use is Burn but that is risky to pull off reliably since you hit will o wisp setters really hard, and again, Stone Edge smacks Moltres into oblivion while Knock Off removes its boots and thus makes it vulnerable to Stealth Rock.

The only thing I can see holding Mega Metagross from being outright broken is that it can't Tera, doesn't hold another item and only gets four moves. But the sheer power of this thing makes me very suspicious to say the least.

 

[Illouri]

We should sus test mega metagross again. It sure is extremely fat but it would help check broken stuff like Iron Crown and Ogerpon for offensive teams.

absolutely not LMAO. Ignoring the 700 BST that's well distributed to all of its stats, SV gave it several moveset buffs that make it even better than it was in gen 8 in the form of Psychic Fangs, Heavy Slam, and Knock Off. All of which made regular Metagross rise to UU, imagine if these were all buffed by tough claws

 

[Patar136]

Mega Metagross also just doesn't die easily. At all.

Sure, Alomomola probably doesn't die to it very quickly but it does jack all back to you since it would be forced to run Scald just to weaken it, maybe, with a burn. And Toxapex is in the same ballpark but worse. Not only does STAB Psychic Fangs destroy you, but you have Earthquake in case you don't wanna run that. Failing that, Thunder Punch to at least maintain some super effective coverage. Again, all Toxapex and most waters can do back is fire off a weak Scald and hope for a burn.

To play devil's advocate though, Mega Metagross does suffer somewhat from four moveslot syndrome. An argument, not a particularly great one but one nonetheless, is that Metagross can be checked with enough bulky Pokemon. If it lacks Hammer Arm, Ferrothorn is an annoyance. If it lacks Thunder Punch, Skarmory and Corviknight are annoying as well with the latter draining your power points. Hilariously, you can use Hidden Power Fire to deal with these since your special attack is a respectable 105 but that's not the best (but the option is pretty epic.) Without Ice Punch, defensive gliscor and landorus become problems (the latter now able to both intimidate you and weaken you further if it holds Rocky Helmet.) Without Psychic Noise, Dondozo becomes a nuisance and even if you have thunder punch is quite bulky. Against defensive teams, an argument could be made that you can withstand the assault given the right partners and assuming Metagross lacks the correct moves.

However, my counterargument to the above is that because Metagross CAN in fact have the move to beat almost any check, it exerts a tremendous strain in the teambuilder that would most likely warp the tier around it. It would easily become S ranked, no question. The strongest all out attacker in all probability. And if that isn't enough, against offensive teams, forget about it. The moment that Metagross gets a free turn the game will likely snowball since it has the stats to wipe out a vast VAST majority of frail offensive targets that probably get OKHOed at worst and irrevocably damaged at best.

Oh yeah, did I mention it gets Grass Knot too? Yeah, bye Dondozo.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

47 | Greninja | 4.482%|
Ehm
FUCKING FINALLY
What the hell were y'all doing keeping this shitter up here. Good riddance.

 

[DarmanitanDLuffy]

47 | Greninja | 4.482%|
Ehm
FUCKING FINALLY
What the hell were y'all doing keeping this shitter up here. Good riddance.

Battle Bond is pretty good on rain tbf.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

Battle Bond is pretty good on rain tbf.

No... Its really quite overrated plz just run like manaphy or something, gren is so fucking useless period.

 

[adem]

We should sus test mega metagross again. It sure is extremely fat but it would help check broken stuff like Iron Crown and Ogerpon for offensive teams.

sure, just give some reasons on what changed to make it balanced now instead of more broken

I think base Zama is definitely broken in the traditional sense. It has 4 viable sets that all play differently. It’s nearly impossible to revenge kill due to its ridiculous speed tier and box legendary bulk. Tera gives it free turns to kill your checks. Also, this is the single best mon in the tier at forcing tera. IronPress sets straight up win a lot of games unless you pack tera ghost. Also, guessing the 4th move on IronPress is an absolute nightmare. This mon needs a suspect.

band and boots have the same sets, and some of its checks also overlap. the only 2 real coverage moves on idpress are crunch and slam, you also dont need tera ghost to not to lose to it lol, and you also seemed to forget its also probably the biggest tera hog, needs tera to win games properly

 

[Patar136]

I don't have much of an opinion on Zamazenta but I know it can be a very annoying win condition. Basically, if you don't have a faster psychic/fairy attacker, a ghost type to wall it or a way to overpower it quickly then it can indeed just win games if given room for set up. That being said I have seen this thing get walled by Clodsire of all things, while other Pokemon like Skeledirge and Sinischa who are less common just destroy it with Skeledirge even ignoring substitute while Sinischa just becomes unkillable if given wiggle room.

It's more of an anomaly of a Pokemon really, essentially having the BST of Reshiram and Lugia if memory serves me but just being palatable enough for OU. Wouldn't be surprised if it got optimized and banned though.

 

[Strat8246]

Mega Metagross also just doesn't die easily. At all.

Sure, Alomomola probably doesn't die to it very quickly but it does jack all back to you since it would be forced to run Scald just to weaken it, maybe, with a burn. And Toxapex is in the same ballpark but worse. Not only does STAB Psychic Fangs destroy you, but you have Earthquake in case you don't wanna run that. Failing that, Thunder Punch to at least maintain some super effective coverage. Again, all Toxapex and most waters can do back is fire off a weak Scald and hope for a burn.

To play devil's advocate though, Mega Metagross does suffer somewhat from four moveslot syndrome. An argument, not a particularly great one but one nonetheless, is that Metagross can be checked with enough bulky Pokemon. If it lacks Hammer Arm, Ferrothorn is an annoyance. If it lacks Thunder Punch, Skarmory and Corviknight are annoying as well with the latter draining your power points. Hilariously, you can use Hidden Power Fire to deal with these since your special attack is a respectable 105 but that's not the best (but the option is pretty epic.) Without Ice Punch, defensive gliscor and landorus become problems (the latter now able to both intimidate you and weaken you further if it holds Rocky Helmet.) Without Psychic Noise, Dondozo becomes a nuisance and even if you have thunder punch is quite bulky. Against defensive teams, an argument could be made that you can withstand the assault given the right partners and assuming Metagross lacks the correct moves.

However, my counterargument to the above is that because Metagross CAN in fact have the move to beat almost any check, it exerts a tremendous strain in the teambuilder that would most likely warp the tier around it. It would easily become S ranked, no question. The strongest all out attacker in all probability. And if that isn't enough, against offensive teams, forget about it. The moment that Metagross gets a free turn the game will likely snowball since it has the stats to wipe out a vast VAST majority of frail offensive targets that probably get OKHOed at worst and irrevocably damaged at best.

Oh yeah, did I mention it gets Grass Knot too? Yeah, bye Dondozo.

mmeta is def too strong but ladder would be funny with it during the sus so should drop it for 2 weeks

 

[jus]

mmeta is def too strong but ladder would be funny with it during the sus so should drop it for 2 weeks

why would we do that dude

 

[Strat8246]

why would we do that dude

I mean it would def get rebanned but it would shut up all the mmeta hopefuls lol

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I mean it would def get rebanned but it would shut up all the mmeta hopefuls lol

that's Just losing time. mgross is broken, deal With it

 

[Strat8246]

that's Just losing time. mgross is broken, deal With it

most recent test was also a very useful use of time right

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I Did Not support it, though.

 

[Moyashi]

most recent test was also a very useful use of time right

yes actually. RM had been banned for most of the generation and never really got a truly fair shake especially as the tier changed over time. It was a good idea to test it and put theories about it being balanced or not to rest. Meta meanwhile has historically been too good for the tier, and only got better this gen with amazing new movepool addition while gaining almost nothing as checks outside like Dondozo (stall exclusive) and maybe Ting-Lu. And the latter has limited longevity and just would get overwhelmed by it long term.

There are better things to be doing than testing obviously broken mons.

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Like fixing bugs (looking directly At NDAAA ladder) or Look At what's problematic, like zama. Or Raging bolt. Or ogerpon-w.

 

[1yr]

ngl even though the meta is kinda boring its still healthy asf like there arent any broken mons walking around and metagross would just destroy everything cuz its broken BUT tera should get banned and all the fun mons should come back >:)

 

[Patar136]

Banning Ogerpon I can understand but banning Raging Bolt?

why?

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

Banning Ogerpon I can understand but banning Raging Bolt?

why?

bulk, High BP priority, good combo of stab, And tera, And Dragonium, Or tra

 

[1yr]

Like fixing bugs (looking directly At NDAAA ladder) or Look At what's problematic, like zama. Or Raging bolt. Or ogerpon-w.

raging bolt is NOT broken same with zama and ogeron dude ogeropn lit gets walled by rilla it gets outsped by half the tier zama gets shit on by skeledirge, pex and ival forces it to tera raging bolt gets walled by treads and slowking pivots into something that can kill it also spdef gliscor cooks it garchomp outspeeds and fries it shit has like 75 base speed its not that good. not to mention it cant click thunderclap in psy terrain and gets cooked by lele. all in all the meta is rlly healthy rn and its stupid to try watering it down by banning the only mons keeping it alive when they arent even broken.

 

[boppydop!]

did any of yall not read my post dawg i spent like 20 mins composing that
what the fuck are these takes. bolt, still on mmeta(??), zama, oger. bro. while some of these mons have issues w/ the ladder i feel like they are managable. The only take i see being somewhat relevant is idbp zama,; bolt is just , ogerpon is actually interesting bc while power level is very high it can get walled by a rlly bulky grass type such as ferro or even tangrowth, also can be outsped relatively easily, while it does have respectful bulk theres things that stop it from being overcentralizing; we all thought is was omega broken but honestly there is counterplay. zama is a beast rn LOL idbp sets, band, 4a boots, fuck this mon whenever i play against it it feels like theres a nearing pressure collapse that will suck me and my family down a time-transcending black hole

 

[1yr]

did any of yall not read my post dawg i spent like 20 mins composing that
what the fuck are these takes. bolt, still on mmeta(??), zama, oger. bro. while some of these mons have issues w/ the ladder i feel like they are managable. The only take i see being somewhat relevant is idbp zama,; bolt is just , ogerpon is actually interesting bc while power level is very high it can get walled by a rlly bulky grass type such as ferro or even tangrowth, also can be outsped relatively easily, while it does have respectful bulk theres things that stop it from being overcentralizing; we all thought is was omega broken but honestly there is counterplay. zama is a beast rn LOL idbp sets, band, 4a boots, fuck this mon whenever i play against it it feels like theres a nearing pressure collapse that will suck me and my family down a time-transcending black hole

just run molt or zap and scout to see if its stone edge fr and just run pex for the idbp set ngl or skeledirge both work

 

[FayaWizard]

just run molt or zap and scout to see if its stone edge fr and just run pex for the idbp set ngl or skeledirge both work

Dirge is B- on the viability rankings and Moltres C+, and both are pretty hard to fit on a team. While Zapdos and Pex are easier to fit on teams(A-), they also have to check the multitude of threats in the tier, meaning over the course of a game they will get chipped heavily and when Zamazenta comes in they might not have the HP/recovery left to wall Zamazenta, especially since it can Tera to avoid Toxics/Hurricanes. Furthermore, a lot of teams also just don't have Pex/Zapdos, as they are 43rd and 25th in usage, respectively.

Does Zamazenta have counterplay? Sure, and there's some mons that hard wall it, like Dondozo. But it's also a massive threat to the more offensive teams of the tier, able to outspeed the majority of them and pick up kills left and right, while IDBP sets can easily clean lategame once its checks have been sufficiently weakened. While I haven't decided on whether it's broken or not, I think it certainly doesn't hurt to examine its place in the meta.

 

[1yr]

viability rankings dont determine if something is good or not, its just the opinion of different players and if i see my opponent has a zamazenta it would be pretty easy to preserve the mon that beats it thats just common sense plus pex gets regenerator and yes dondo also walls it rlly hard same with clefable if they are running crunch and moltres just flat out beats it. It shouldnt be susd nor should it be considered broken, I would also like to know how its hard to fit dirge and moltres on a team?? I find that a very subjective claim which can differ how different players like to make their teams

 

[FayaWizard]

viability rankings dont determine if something is good or not, its just the opinion of different players

The opinions of some of the best players in the tier, with community input, aren't a good measurement for determing a mon's viability?

if i see my opponent has a zamazenta it would be pretty easy to preserve the mon that beats it thats just common sense

Let's say your check is Toxapex. A safe check on paper, but what happens if your opponent pairs Zamazenta with Future Sight from Slowking-Galar? Suddenly, your supposed safe check cannot check Zamazenta because it gets blown up by the Future Sight.

Or let's say your check is Moltres/Zapdos? Except your opponent also brought Gliscor, which can soak any status, threaten Toxic/Spikes, and easily recover any damage you do, since you're forced to run a defensive set against Zamazenta.

I would also like to know how its hard to fit dirge and moltres on a team??

Pretty hard, considering both offer free turns to the arguably best mon in the tier, Gliscor, as well as failing to check one of the most threatening physical attackers of the tier, Ogerpon-Wellspring. These mons aren't even safe checks to Zamazenta anyways: Tera Fire farms both of them.