Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Moyashi]

ogerpon is actually interesting bc while power level is very high it can get walled by a rlly bulky grass type such as ferro or even tangrowth, also can be outsped relatively easily, while it does have respectful bulk theres things that stop it from being overcentralizing; we all thought is was omega broken but honestly there is counterplay.

What defensive counterplay is there? The only bulky grass that's actually consistent as a Oger check is Ferrothorn, Tangrowth is a very fake check as it doesn't do nearly enough damage. And even Ferro is potentially vulnerable to Encore+SD, as if Oger comes in on leech seed it can be locked into it and used as set up.

viability rankings dont determine if something is good or not, its just the opinion of different players and if i see my opponent has a zamazenta it would be pretty easy to preserve the mon that beats it thats just common sense plus pex gets regenerator and yes dondo also walls it rlly hard same with clefable if they are running crunch and moltres just flat out beats it. It shouldnt be susd nor should it be considered broken, I would also like to know how its hard to fit dirge and moltres on a team?? I find that a very subjective claim which can differ how different players like to make their teams

The VR exists as a result of both the input of the overall community as well as the experience of good players who work to make a resource available to everyone that gives a general idea of what is and isn't as viable (or viable at all), and while it's not infallible and prone to miss things because things can go undiscovered or be underrated, it's still a good place to go for information. Dondozo walls Zama but don is restricted to stall teams. Clefable gets slammed by Heavy Slam variants, and Moltres loses to sets with Stone Edge (particularly getting lured and ruined by Rockium Z sets).

Dirge and Molt are difficult to fit. That's not really subjective, that's based on experience with using them. Dirge is a pokemon suited for stall/balance teams, but runs into issues with low initial power, and that it tends to invite certain dangerous threats in rather freely (Heatran, ZardY, MegaDiancie, and more). Plus it has an aversion to knock off, and even things it should check like Mega Scizor or Iron Valiant run knock off which can cripple it. Moltres meanwhile is even more knock prone, and necessitates multiple forms of hazard removal so that it isn't losing 50% of its health when it takes rocks damage, which would heavily hinder its ability to check what it should be checking otherwise. And both fire mons give endless free turns to Gliscor who is not something you want getting free turns;

They're viable, but they're very niche and difficult to build around.

 

[1yr]

The opinions of some of the best players in the tier, with community input, aren't a good measurement for determing a mon's viability?


Let's say your check is Toxapex. A safe check on paper, but what happens if your opponent pairs Zamazenta with Future Sight from Slowking-Galar? Suddenly, your supposed safe check cannot check Zamazenta because it gets blown up by the Future Sight.

Or let's say your check is Moltres/Zapdos? Except your opponent also brought Gliscor, which can soak any status, threaten Toxic/Spikes, and easily recover any damage you do, since you're forced to run a defensive set against Zamazenta.


Pretty hard, considering both offer free turns to the arguably best mon in the tier, Gliscor, as well as failing to check one of the most threatening physical attackers of the tier, Ogerpon-Wellspring. These mons aren't even safe checks to Zamazenta anyways: Tera Fire farms both of them.

ok so now you're pressuposing many things and going into these "what if" situations with every presupposition that you're supposing i can suppose a counter, when you say "well i can just have x pokemon on my team to force out y pokemon" you're applying an advantageous position for yourself. There are different counter measures within a battle i would be able to use against a slowking g using future sight, and i was using pex as an example as a wall for idbp set by the time you get one iron defense up the future sight is landing which makes it extremely easy for me to just switch out and even gain hp back via regenerator and haze not to mention you're presupposing i wouldn't have counter measures on said team already. you cant just give yourself a super advantageous position in this what if battle to try and prove a mon is broken like if i were to say bisharp is broken and use my evidence being "well if im plus 6 what is stopping me" like no thats not how it works lol you cant just pressupose i wouldnt have a counter on that team or that you would have a slowking to begin with and plus future sight wouldnt affect the idbp set at all hence this argument should be dismissed

once again i dont care about these hypotheticals you're proposing because they're irrelevant like this argument is similar to how a 4 year old would treat his favourite lego character you cant just make up these hypotheticals in your head you're making it extremely situational like "what if zamazentas team mates just beat x mon" going by that logic its ambiguous whether or not my teamates would beat zamas teammates and should be dismissed lol

if you run tera fire on zam you get farmed by pex even harder lol which just helps my arg even more and to address the ogerpon shit idk what you're trying to argue here but if you're just saying ogerpon beats both yipee?? like what i dont care ogerpon gets farmed by ferrothorn which is the number 1 most used mon with zapdos and if you're talking about on the same team as zamazenta then we're getting into that situational shit again which i already addressed:)

 

[1yr]

What defensive counterplay is there? The only bulky grass that's actually consistent as a Oger check is Ferrothorn, Tangrowth is a very fake check as it doesn't do nearly enough damage. And even Ferro is potentially vulnerable to Encore+SD, as if Oger comes in on leech seed it can be locked into it and used as set up.



The VR exists as a result of both the input of the overall community as well as the experience of good players who work to make a resource available to everyone that gives a general idea of what is and isn't as viable (or viable at all), and while it's not infallible and prone to miss things because things can go undiscovered or be underrated, it's still a good place to go for information. Dondozo walls Zama but don is restricted to stall teams. Clefable gets slammed by Heavy Slam variants, and Moltres loses to sets with Stone Edge (particularly getting lured and ruined by Rockium Z sets).

Dirge and Molt are difficult to fit. That's not really subjective, that's based on experience with using them. Dirge is a pokemon suited for stall/balance teams, but runs into issues with low initial power, and that it tends to invite certain dangerous threats in rather freely (Heatran, ZardY, MegaDiancie, and more). Plus it has an aversion to knock off, and even things it should check like Mega Scizor or Iron Valiant run knock off which can cripple it. Moltres meanwhile is even more knock prone, and necessitates multiple forms of hazard removal so that it isn't losing 50% of its health when it takes rocks damage, which would heavily hinder its ability to check what it should be checking otherwise. And both fire mons give endless free turns to Gliscor who is not something you want getting free turns;

They're viable, but they're very niche and difficult to build around.

ok so just because dondozo is good on stall doesnt mean its restricted to it lol u can run dozo on balance and the team can still be good if you run heavy slam on zam for clefable you just get walled by literally every single ghost type in the game and makes the mon useless, idbp never runs stone edge lmfao nor does it run z and if you do you lose out on so much coverage and makes the mon even worse and rockium z??? idk if you know but im arguing against idbp zama which would lose out on its recovery running z and lose out on its coverage plus nobody runs that on idbp sets or in general rockium z isnt even in the top 4 most used items with zamazenta and is sub 2 percent usage lmfao iron valiant also rarely runs knock off and is walled by skeledirge gliscor also risks its recovery switching into skeledirge because of wisp and you literally just contradicted yourself first you say that dirge and molt being difficult to fit isnt subjective then literally admitted it was appealing to PERSONAL EXPERIENCE when that literally is the definition of subjective lol and im gonna avoid posting about council because my last post got edited for talking about it

 

[Moyashi]

i believe no to a certain extent, these "best players" have alo in b- because "its too passive" lmfao and then again half of the players running vr are overrated asf and mediocre so no i dont believe the mons viability should be determined from the opinion of a group lol

Mola is B+ so that tanks your point just by way of showing you didn't even check the VR. Half the of the players running the BR are overrated? And how are you gonna make that claim. What's that based on? Or is it just a you problem.

ok so now you're pressuposing many things and going into these "what if" situations with every presupposition that you're supposing i can suppose a counter, when you say "well i can just have x pokemon on my team to force out y pokemon" you're applying an advantageous position for yourself. There are different counter measures within a battle i would be able to use against a slowking g using future sight, and i was using pex as an example as a wall for idbp set by the time you get one iron defense up the future sight is landing which makes it extremely easy for me to just switch out and even gain hp back via regenerator and haze not to mention you're presupposing i wouldn't have counter measures on said team already. you cant just give yourself a super advantageous position in this what if battle to try and prove a mon is broken like if i were to say bisharp is broken and use my evidence being "well if im plus 6 what is stopping me" like no thats not how it works lol you cant just pressupose i wouldnt have a counter on that team or that you would have a slowking to begin with and plus future sight wouldnt affect the idbp set at all hence this argument should be dismissed

So you'll have counterplay not just to Zama but Zama+FS? If FS goes up, you're much more pinned in trying to check Zama? Also who said anything about IDBP+future sight? Zama has multiple sets and those do pair with FS, which will limit your ability to switch around it. Also your Bisharp example is bad and super disingenuous.

once again i dont care about these hypotheticals you're proposing because they're irrelevant like this argument is similar to how a 4 year old would treat his favourite lego character you cant just make up these hypotheticals in your head you're making it extremely situational like "what if zamazentas team mates just beat x mon" going by that logic its ambiguous whether or not my teamates would beat zamas teammates and should be dismissed lol

They're not just hypotheticals. They're common gameplay examples that happen, they're scenarios you should be prepared for which is why Firewizard brought them up.

ok so just because dondozo is good on stall doesnt mean its restricted to it lol u can run dozo on balance and the team can still be good if you run heavy slam on zam for clefable you just get walled by literally every single ghost type in the game and makes the mon useless, idbp never runs stone edge lmfao nor does it run z and if you do you lose out on so much coverage and makes the mon even worse and rockium z??? idk if you know but im arguing against idbp zama which would lose out on its recovery running z and lose out on its coverage plus nobody runs that on idbp sets or in general rockium z isnt even in the top 4 most used items with zamazenta and is sub 2 percent usage lmfao iron valiant also rarely runs knock off and is walled by skeledirge gliscor also risks its recovery switching into skeledirge because of wisp and you literally just contradicted yourself first you say that dirge and molt being difficult to fit isnt subjective then literally admitted it was appealing to PERSONAL EXPERIENCE when that literally is the definition of subjective lol and im gonna avoid posting about council because my last post got edited for talking about it

It isn't that it's good on stall. It's that it's only really good on stall. Dozo is a terrible momentum sink and has horrid longevity with a lack of reliable recovery, being forced to rely on rest which is very abusable and only really something that can be covered for efficiently on stall. On balance it's just a poor choice over good bulky waters like Pex and Mola, who bring more to those teams either with pivoting or the ability to spread status.

Heavy Slam Zam is walled by ghosts? Good thing we don't have any viable ghosts in the tier. Oops. Also lol @ citing natdex ladder usage stats like they're worth anything most of the time. This is the same ladder that has left TornadusT, a terrific pokemon, out to dry in UUBL while somehow trapping garbage like Mega Banette in the tier, or also trapping junk like Glimmora. Ladder tends to spam cheesy set up strats on mons when they're available which is what IDBP style sets fall under. Ival knock off sets are very much relevant, as the mon is hyper versatile and thus it's something you must account for when building teams which is why Dirge isn't super reliable all the time into it. Gliscor has nothing to fear from Dirge lmao, because it's literally status immune with poison heal.

 

[1yr]

Mola is B+ so that tanks your point just by way of showing you didn't even check the VR. Half the of the players running the BR are overrated? And how are you gonna make that claim. What's that based on? Or is it just a you problem.



So you'll have counterplay not just to Zama but Zama+FS? If FS goes up, you're much more pinned in trying to check Zama? Also who said anything about IDBP+future sight? Zama has multiple sets and those do pair with FS, which will limit your ability to switch around it. Also your Bisharp example is bad and super disingenuous.



They're not just hypotheticals. They're common gameplay examples that happen, they're scenarios you should be prepared for which is why Firewizard brought them up.



It isn't that it's good on stall. It's that it's only really good on stall. Dozo is a terrible momentum sink and has horrid longevity with a lack of reliable recovery, being forced to rely on rest which is very abusable and only really something that can be covered for efficiently on stall. On balance it's just a poor choice over good bulky waters like Pex and Mola, who bring more to those teams either with pivoting or the ability to spread status.

Heavy Slam Zam is walled by ghosts? Good thing we don't have any viable ghosts in the tier. Oops. Also lol @ citing natdex ladder usage stats like they're worth anything most of the time. This is the same ladder that has left TornadusT, a terrific pokemon, out to dry in UUBL while somehow trapping garbage like Mega Banette in the tier, or also trapping junk like Glimmora. Ladder tends to spam cheesy set up strats on mons when they're available which is what IDBP style sets fall under. Ival knock off sets are very much relevant, as the mon is hyper versatile and thus it's something you must account for when building teams which is why Dirge isn't super reliable all the time into it. Gliscor has nothing to fear from Dirge lmao, because it's literally status immune with poison heal.

i said mola was b- based off recollection lol i was basing my claim off of my battles with them but like i said im not gonna talk about it because my last post got edited for talking about it lol

can you provide epistemic reasoning to why my bisharp example is disanalygous? if you cant ill just dismiss it lol

when arguing with the stall dude we were talking about idbp zama because thats obv the best set which is why i was specifically referencing counters to idbp zama lol u need to re read it

there isnt only one dozo set theres the protect leftovers set aswell lol even if we use the curse set its good at stopping sweepers for example if i identify my team loses to something like zama or dragonite or another phys sweeper i can add dondozo to stop those phys sweepers from beating me

see how you cherrypick one small point from the discussion im having with the stall dude about his hypotheticals? pls refute the pressupositions i mentioned aswell lol instead of cherrypicking out of context things and not refuting the reasoning

idk if u read that properly but if a fresh gliscor switches into a will o wisp what happens? you lose your ability to get the poison orb sir and your gliscor loses its recovery not to mention numerous doubles you can make when dealing with gliscor heavy slam also gets walled by ceruledge and none other than skeledirge which are viable pokemon lol same with aegislash and iron val runs knock 20 percent of the time and its on swords dance sets which lose to skele aswell once it teras lmao and i dont care about your opinion on mons like glimmora because its irrelivent and doesnt devalue or discredit how much a mon is used lol

 

[Sulo]

Gonna formally request that we stop this back and forth here, since it's really not leading to anything productive and we're just gonna end up insulting each other anyways.

 

[Moyashi]

Gonna formally request that we stop this back and forth here, since it's really not leading to anything productive and we're just gonna end up insulting each other anyways.

Will do. Sorry about that.

Well to get on something more productive, what are everyone's thoughts on Ogerpon Wellspring at the moment? Feels like the most potent breaker of bulky teams right now and I'm finding it rather difficult to really account for when building those teams, given its flexibility and rather wide movepool. I think at worst it's one of the best mons in the tier and brings a unique offense while also having rather remarkable defensive utility thanks to its ability. For those of you building balance, what are your go to Wellspring checks?

 

[Ineros]

Will do. Sorry about that.

Well to get on something more productive, what are everyone's thoughts on Ogerpon Wellspring at the moment? Feels like the most potent breaker of bulky teams right now and I'm finding it rather difficult to really account for when building those teams, given its flexibility and rather wide movepool. I think at worst it's one of the best mons in the tier and brings a unique offense while also having rather remarkable defensive utility thanks to its ability. For those of you building balance, what are your go to Wellspring checks?

Well uh I basically build balance almost exclusively so I can probably answer this question. So basically recently I’ve been really into mega latias; twave sets are a good way to slow it down. Ferrothorn is…. Ok into encore sets but for sure isn’t walling it, even if it does carry encore. Another way I’ve usually checked wellspring to an extent is slapping fly z torn + pivot + speed control to pressure it, as it’s almost impossible to check defensively. Those are my main ways, but there are some other options as well. Sometimes I’ll run defog kart just for a good matchup into wellspring and at other points I’ll use a physdef oriented pex to haze away its boosts and have a semi shot at beating it. It’s even become so restricting to the point where my best option into it is my own waterpon + a Tera dragon mon like idk Corv or even Lando (if I’m running Tera dragon Lando for waterpon you know something’s bad).


Are these reliable answers? Not by a chance. This mon is broken and is able to cleave through all of its “checks” one way or another. But, even so, we still have to hold it off somehow and eh ways to beat it are better than none, for the time being. But even so please ban waterpon LOL

 

[xTimeCrystal]

Will do. Sorry about that.

Well to get on something more productive, what are everyone's thoughts on Ogerpon Wellspring at the moment? Feels like the most potent breaker of bulky teams right now and I'm finding it rather difficult to really account for when building those teams, given its flexibility and rather wide movepool. I think at worst it's one of the best mons in the tier and brings a unique offense while also having rather remarkable defensive utility thanks to its ability. For those of you building balance, what are your go to Wellspring checks?

So I tried using a team with a six-mon core of Unaware COUNTER Clef (SD) + Lando-T (intimidate) + Rotom (water sponge) + Ferrothorn (punish whip into rotom + type coverage) to live hits, and use Dragon Slowking-G as emergency, even with TTar-M to pressure its main teammates that help beat its checks, YET I still haven't been able to check it. This team already struggles with some other threats (doesn't crumble to them but doesn't really beat them either, same with wellsprint) not including ogerpon-w, so being able to check oger must make a team highly susceptible to other mons.
Please suspect test it.

 

[Nish the Great]

So I tried using a team with a six-mon core of Unaware COUNTER Clef (SD) + Lando-T (intimidate) + Rotom (water sponge) + Ferrothorn (punish whip into rotom + type coverage) to live hits, and use Dragon Slowking-G as emergency, even with TTar-M to pressure its main teammates that help beat its checks, YET I still haven't been able to check it. This team already struggles with some other threats (doesn't crumble to them but doesn't really beat them either, same with wellsprint) not including ogerpon-w, so being able to check oger must make a team highly susceptible to other mons.
Please suspect test it.

Tbf, your team puts pretty much zero offensive pressure on it and is completely unable to revenge-kill it, which is clearly going to result in a mon that learns SD+ Encore/taunt running you over.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

So I tried using a team with a six-mon core of Unaware COUNTER Clef (SD) + Lando-T (intimidate) + Rotom (water sponge) + Ferrothorn (punish whip into rotom + type coverage) to live hits, and use Dragon Slowking-G as emergency, even with TTar-M to pressure its main teammates that help beat its checks, YET I still haven't been able to check it. This team already struggles with some other threats (doesn't crumble to them but doesn't really beat them either, same with wellsprint) not including ogerpon-w, so being able to check oger must make a team highly susceptible to other mons.
Please suspect test it.

I agree it needs a suspect, however your team really puts zero pressure on it and is a bit slow you need to put offensive pressure to beat it, you really don't beat a pokemon like waterpon in the way you seem to be trying to.
On a side note people who think mmeta should be unbanned do yourself a favour and do some calcs first and don't make a fool of yourself it's insanely broken.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

ok so just because dondozo is good on stall doesnt mean its restricted to it lol u can run dozo on balance and the team can still be good if you run heavy slam on zam for clefable you just get walled by literally every single ghost type in the game and makes the mon useless, idbp never runs stone edge lmfao nor does it run z and if you do you lose out on so much coverage and makes the mon even worse and rockium z??? idk if you know but im arguing against idbp zama which would lose out on its recovery running z and lose out on its coverage plus nobody runs that on idbp sets or in general rockium z isnt even in the top 4 most used items with zamazenta and is sub 2 percent usage lmfao iron valiant also rarely runs knock off and is walled by skeledirge gliscor also risks its recovery switching into skeledirge because of wisp and you literally just contradicted yourself first you say that dirge and molt being difficult to fit isnt subjective then literally admitted it was appealing to PERSONAL EXPERIENCE when that literally is the definition of subjective lol and im gonna avoid posting about council because my last post got edited for talking about it

I really don't get this post, and I hate to have to keep the discussion going but this post just...doesn't understand what IDBP Zama does or what it can do when paired with teammates.

I have literally never seen a Dondozo on balance. You cannot slap it on a team since it's such a massive momentum sink. Sure, it's bulky, but it's not doing much with that bulk. Dirge and Molt are low and difficult to fit for good reasons: they're deathly afraid of Knock Off from stuff they would otherwise check like Rillaboom and SD Val, and overall they don't contribute enough immediate offensive pressure in this metagame, leaving them outclassed but for a few niche situations. IDBP Zama has a few counters, yes, but over the course of the game they get worn down very easily and any good IDBP Zama team will deal with Pex before trying to outright win.

Anyways.

Waterpon is hella annoying and potentially broken, although it struggles to fit everything it needs to beat its counters. This is a dilemma that's come up a lot, and most of the time (IIRC) mons like this have been banned. I'll make a table of everything that checks what.

4th moveslot​	Checks​
Encore​	, (partially), (partially), (partially), (partially)​
Superpower​	, ​
Play Rough​	, ​

Now of course I could be missing a lot of checks and most probably am, but these are the list of things that check it without Tera. Tera adds a lot more to the list, but overall forcing a tera or potentially straight-up losing based on the set seems like an unhealthy dynamic to me.

 

[Moyashi]

Late night musings while getting ready to snooze



Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Psychic
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Psyshock

I know it's generally agreed that Lele is the best speed control around, but it just feels so appreciable in a metagame where so few good scarfers exist and Booster Energy mons fail to be reliable longterm options for such a role. It's especially nice that tera psychic or fairy gives it some extra oomph to ease cleaning potential late game, or just allow it to push past certain pokemon easier. It's definitely one of the most reliable mons, and honestly one of the best mons in the tier atm. At least I think so.


Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Salt Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Dragon/Water/Fairy
Careful Nature
- Salt Cure
- Curse / Iron Defense
- Recover
- Protect

Garg is good of course but I personally think this is one of the best ways to run it. It lets it have extra longevity and potential to stay on the field longer while also acting as a potential wincon and it can sometimes aggressively take over games if the opponent fails to respond to it quickly, or lacks ways of moving it. I'm mainly listing Iron Defense because I've seen some people put it to use, but I think Curse is better for denying Gliscor more while also wearing down pokemon faster with stronger Salt Cures. Tera type I think is just team preference and what you're running to cover weaknesses for it, but yeah. Especially after playing a game where the opponent also had this set and it basically became a PP stalling fest until one side ran out of recovery.


Ogerpon-Wellspring @ Wellspring Mask
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Water
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Power Whip / Horn Leech
- Superpower / Play Rough / Encore

It's not exactly an unpopular opinion but I think Wellspring is arguably the best breaker in the tier, and I think the versatility it has is both good and bad for the tier. Good because it makes it remarkably splashable, and it's really something special how something this offensively inclined has such excellent defensive utility thanks to its ability. Bad however because it sometimes feels like it can sort of BS its way past a lot of its defensive checks. I've seen this mon even get past Ferrothorn with Encore, which really says a lot about how effective it is.

 

[NightEmerald]

View attachment 613628
Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Salt Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe

dumb question but did you mean SpD instead of Spe? i can see the merits of some speed, but forgoing serious def or SpD investment in favor of a stat that doesn’t matter that much on a wall, and gets reduced by curse anyway just seems weird to me

 

[Epicgamergod69]

dumb question but did you mean SpD instead of Spe? i can see the merits of some speed, but forgoing serious def or SpD investment in favor of a stat that doesn’t matter that much on a wall, and gets reduced by curse anyway just seems weird to me

Well, considering the proximity of the keys e and d on the keyboard, and the fact that garganacl has a base speed of 35 I can say with great confidence that it is in fact meant to be Special defense.

 

[Aesiro13]

Well, considering the proximity of the keys e and d on the keyboard,

By performing advanced albaquerque, you can subtract where it is from where it isn't to where it isn't from where it is, then divide the result by 0 to conclude that the missile constructed from a baseplate of prefamulated amulite does indeed know where it is.

 

[Eighty-EightShohs]

Hi everyone, is it okay if someone rates my main Showdown team, please? It's kind of cobbled together, here is the team: Dream Team (pokepast.es)
Thank you!

 

[FayaWizard]

Hi everyone, is it okay if someone rates my main Showdown team, please? It's kind of cobbled together, here is the team: Dream Team (pokepast.es)
Thank you!

Unfortunately this isn't the place to ask for team rates, you'd be better off asking in either the National Dex Discord #rmt channel, the #Natdex OU thread in the Smogon Discord, or SV Other Teams in the Forum RMT, link here.

 

[1yr]

Idk why nobody is talking about this mon it’s by far the best in the meta and it beats every spdef wall in the meta, this big giraffe needs to be susd ASAP.


Raging bolt calcs

+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 223-264 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 256-303 (88.5 - 104.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 178-211 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 228-268 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads in Sun: 292-344 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

not to mention it’s defensive prowess walking mons like Ogerpon, Zapdos(offensive) and Zard y

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt in Sun: 156-185 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 162-191 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 96-114 (21.1 - 25.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

 

[FayaWizard]

Idk why nobody is talking about this mon it’s by far the best in the meta and it beats every spdef wall in the meta, this big giraffe needs to be susd ASAP.


Raging bolt calcs

+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 223-264 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderclap vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 256-303 (88.5 - 104.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 178-211 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 228-268 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads in Sun: 292-344 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

not to mention it’s defensive prowess walking mons like Ogerpon, Zapdos(offensive) and Zard y

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt in Sun: 156-185 (34.3 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 162-191 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 96-114 (21.1 - 25.1%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

When Ogerpon-W is running around the tier spamming Encore, Tapu Lele shutting down Thunderclap entirely, Landorus-Therian threatening powerful Earthquakes, and Ferrothorn well, existing, I really don't think Raging Bolt is a suspectable threat. Is it powerful? Undeniably. But it's poor speed and reliance on Thunderclap opens it up to some easy checks/counters, and it's never really felt overwhelming to me in the same way that Wellspring and Zamazenta have felt at times.


Also, you forgot Ting-Lu and the fat pink blobs of Blissey and Chansey exist, all of which completely wall Raging Bolt. Sure, they can't be easily fit on most teams, but to claim that Raging Bolt can break through "every special wall in the metagame" when these mons exist?

 

[1yr]

When Ogerpon-W is running around the tier spamming Encore, Tapu Lele shutting down Thunderclap entirely, Landorus-Therian threatening powerful Earthquakes, and Ferrothorn well, existing, I really don't think Raging Bolt is a suspectable threat. Is it powerful? Undeniably. But it's poor speed and reliance on Thunderclap opens it up to some easy checks/counters, and it's never really felt overwhelming to me in the same way that Wellspring and Zamazenta have felt at times.


Also, you forgot Ting-Lu and the fat pink blobs of Blissey and Chansey exist, all of which completely wall Raging Bolt. Sure, they can't be easily fit on most teams, but to claim that Raging Bolt can break through "every special wall in the metagame" when these mons exist?

First of all raging bolt literally beats Lando lol. Lando can’t switch in or even ohko it and it just gets 2hkod by dragon plus or Draco meteor 2hkod in its 1v1 not to mention raging bolt can also run Tera flying really easily even being the recommended Tera.

Even though encore is rarely used on Waterpon I’ll still entertain it, the only way Ogerpon will annoy raging bolt with encore is if raging bolt had clicked either calm mind or thunderclap the previous turn you can easily switch out and back in on Ogerpon because it walls it and when you come back in even if they swords dance you tank and thunderbolt twice killing it and if they want to Tera to get more damage it’s even better not to mention you can z move through encore. Addressing lele it doesn’t even beat it either after 1 calm mind LMFAOOO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. +1 80 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 342-404 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 289-342 (102.8 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And even if I WERE to grant you both of those counters let’s make a little comparison, hmmm what other mon abused priority and was threatened out by encore and lele kingambit and it still got banned not to mention lele or Ogerpon can’t even 1v1 raging bolt

+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 295-348 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 246-290 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So ting Lu also gets fried and look at the treatment Chansey gets lol I can just do +3 raging bolt because Chansey is setup fodder butttt I’ll just do 2

+2 252+ SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 462-544 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 307-363 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

so it just sets up once and mauls it easily

And it gets run on sun teams enough so that Ferrothorn isn’t a reliable counter

252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 632-748 (180 - 213.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It almost gets 1hkod two times over, yikes.

this Mon is next to impossible to prep for and play around and always has a way to beat everything with common sets it’s should get suspect tested right after wcop ends it’s literally a gambit 2.0

 

[FayaWizard]

First of all raging bolt literally beats Lando lol. Lando can’t switch in or even ohko it and it just gets 2hkod by dragon plus or Draco meteor 2hkod in its 1v1 not to mention raging bolt can also run Tera flying really easily even being the recommended Tera.

Even though encore is rarely used on Waterpon I’ll still entertain it, the only way Ogerpon will annoy raging bolt with encore is if raging bolt had clicked either calm mind or thunderclap the previous turn you can easily switch out and back in on Ogerpon because it walls it and when you come back in even if they swords dance you tank and thunderbolt twice killing it

The fact that you can easily force Raging Bolt out, burning its Booster Energy while also chipping it is pretty valuable

and if they want to Tera to get more damage it’s even better not to mention you can z move through encore. Addressing lele it doesn’t even beat it either after 1 calm mind LMFAOOO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. +1 80 HP / 0 SpD Raging Bolt: 342-404 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 289-342 (102.8 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lele isn't switching in on Raging Bolt unless it's a revenge kill, so it actually does beat it with Moonblast, and I was referring to Lele shutting down its Thunderclap with Psychic Terrain, not Tapu Lele 1v1ing it.

And even if I WERE to grant you both of those counters let’s make a little comparison, hmmm what other mon abused priority and was threatened out by encore and lele kingambit and it still got banned not to mention lele or Ogerpon can’t even 1v1 raging bolt

Ogerpon 1v1s if it catches Bolt on the Thunderclap/Calm Mind, same with Lele. Kingambit was also much stronger due to having Swords Dance, Supreme Overlord giving it 1.5x to its attacks, abused Tera to a far greater extent, and didn't have a priority move that could be blanked by one of the best types in the tier.

+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 295-348 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 80 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt: 246-290 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So ting Lu also gets fried

Now you're just misrepresenting stats completely. I'm going to assume that you understand how Draco Meteor works, so if you do the right calc, not the one that fits your narrative, you'd see that
+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 397-468 (77.2 - 91%) -- not a KO
it's not even a KO.

and look at the treatment Chansey gets lol I can just do +3 raging bolt because Chansey is setup fodder butttt I’ll just do 2

+2 252+ SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 462-544 (65.7 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Raging Bolt Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 307-363 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

so it just sets up once and mauls it easily

Chansey clicks Toxic then stalls you out with Soft Boiled, so much for "mauling it easily". And if you try to prevent the Toxic by clicking Z after 1 Calm Mind, when Chansey would presumably switch in? +1 252+ SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 346-408 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO.
.

 

[1yr]

The fact that you can easily force Raging Bolt out, burning its Booster Energy while also chipping it is pretty valuable


Lele isn't switching in on Raging Bolt unless it's a revenge kill, so it actually does beat it with Moonblast, and I was referring to Lele shutting down its Thunderclap with Psychic Terrain, not Tapu Lele 1v1ing it.


Ogerpon 1v1s if it catches Bolt on the Thunderclap/Calm Mind, same with Lele. Kingambit was also much stronger due to having Swords Dance, Supreme Overlord giving it 1.5x to its attacks, abused Tera to a far greater extent, and didn't have a priority move that could be blanked by one of the best types in the tier.


Now you're just misrepresenting stats completely. I'm going to assume that you understand how Draco Meteor works, so if you do the right calc, not the one that fits your narrative, you'd see that
+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 397-468 (77.2 - 91%) -- not a KO
it's not even a KO.



Chansey clicks Toxic then stalls you out with Soft Boiled, so much for "mauling it easily". And if you try to prevent the Toxic by clicking Z after 1 Calm Mind, when Chansey would presumably switch in? +1 252+ SpA Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 346-408 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO.
.

Wtf are u talking about with burning it I’m so confused

So whenever psychic terrain is down every single mon is just cooked? Like what and it can Tera and kill it.

And I already addressed Ogerpon you repeating yourself doesn’t defeat my point whatsoever and with gambit and the bolt comparison, bolt has a much better defensive typing than gambit and a much greater defensive prowess and gets a 1.3x boost from proto synthesis and not to mention electric priority is muchhhh better than dark priority especially when most the phys attackers in the tier are fighting type plus iron valiant. It also doesn’t matter if raging bolts priority can’t hit ground types when there aren’t near as many fighting types that beat gambit then ground types that beat bolt the only one that actually causes it a little trouble that are relevant are garchomp and great tusk which both get fried after it Tera’s and I don’t think swords dance on gambit matters that much because of raging bolt getting calm mind that makes sure nothing can kill it rather to gambit kinda getting bitched by most fighting types unless u run Tera flying or fairy which was rarely ran (Tera dark was ran most because of the treatment it gave stall and a more powerful sucker punch ect)

And I meant z plus Draco fries it and look at this
+1 252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Devastating Drake (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 450-531 (64 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So in sun u get torched badly

I believe the variety of sets and teams you can run this Mon is what makes it crazy along with it being impossible to prep for and having no walls I think it should be banned similar to how gambit was

Side note I’m in school rn and writing on mobile so if there’s any formatting errors mb

 

[CappyThePulpy]

I was just about to make a post talking about raging bolt, looks like someone got there before me. I think a suspect test is very reasonable. Raging bolt has good bulk, great stab combo, powerful stab priority (maybe unreliable but we will get to that later), calm mind and tera to top it all up.
While I don’t see the above calcs as relevant and consider chansey and ting lu counters, I believe that the average team has a very hard time prepping for raging bolt. The meta’s ground types have pretty meh special bulk and are neutral to dragon and lose the 1v1 after tera fairy. The exceptions to this are unaware clodsire, iron treads and ting lu, all of which are true counters but may have a hard time against bolt over the course of the game due to the roles they have to fulfill (like hazards and checking other mons) while all but clod lack proper recovery.
Since the place of those mentioned above in the meta is questionable, ferro is the only truly meta mon which reliably beats bolt (not weather ball sun). Of course, ferro has unreliable recovery and is generally tasked with answering other threats.
Everything besides chansey and the mons mentioned above are at best good matchups into bolt, not actual counters. Generally, bolt is one good prediction or tera away from running with the game. Dragonite (tera normal), mscizor or gouging fire may have the advantage but a good bolt team has an easy time applying the needed pressure to turn the matchup around.
My analysis only considers the tera fair dragon pulse set, which I have been using for a while. I think zmove is a bait as you lose the most valuable asset you have, which is tera.I prefer dpulse over draco to double down on the cleanup role even if it gives up some breaking power. Other notable options which work are the sun set and the electric terrain rising voltage one.

Overall, if your acual reliable answers to a mon are so few and far between, with the apparently good, meta dominating checks losing to tera, a suspect test is honestly in order.

 

[CappyThePulpy]

Also forgot to mention, its sooooo easy to click thunderclap most games. I honestly find myself in a 50/50 thunderclap prediction battle far less often than I remember was the case with kingambit.