Netbattle just got DPgraded!

[Astamatitos]

I don't get the whole Netbattle vs Shoddybattle comparison.

Seeing NB getting updated is definetely encouraging for everyone of us who once enjoyed playing, or simply being there back in the old days.

 

[obi]

That's no error.

[12:54:42] Bayleef: because it was voted as such by the beta testers and development staff.
[12:54:52] Bayleef: Its ranking might change as the metagame develops.

This is probably my biggest "Huh?" moment in this thread as far as developer comments are concerned. Why does the the development team need to decide our tiers for us? Wouldn't it be better if each server were allowed to do this on their own?

Actually I hate to say it but after they basically built your house and you guys shat in it, I doubt they're too happy with Smogon's work as of late.

I'm afraid I don't understand where you're going with this. If the point is "We're going to do stuff to be 'not Smogon'." then that seems like a pretty flawed mentality. If your saying that Smogon brought down NB or something, then I don't see how that happened. NetBattle insecurity and obsolescence brought down NB.

As for the Cresselia ban...it shows these guys aren't in line with the old Netbattle work yet. I'm actually the one who took up the reins and has been using more formal design methods to maintain a metagame, though support has been admittedly smaller due to the NIH mentality Smogon has always had.

NIH, or "Not Invented Here", does not apply to Smogon. We used to use NetBattle. We currently use Shoddybattle. Neither one originated as a Smogon project.

Maybe we can get them in line with that; our Format 1 is just what your OU will be assuming designers with brains and another six to eight months time. I'm not sure if you'll ever do anything like our Format 2 or we'll have anything like where your UU will end up though, I think your design process is very flawed but your metagame should eventually evolve into something valid.

You'll have to explain this one if you want to use it as a major criticism. However, the way I see it, you have two options. Either what you are saying is irrelevant to NB code (and is just a random 'attack' on Smogon), in which case I have to wonder why you're mentioning it, or else it is relevant to NB code, which would imply that tiers are hard-coded even more than just the uber list.

Which of course brings me to another point of contention: Unless this has changed, the challenge window should not say "This person has X ubers on their team" because that gives away extra information that would normally not be available.

I actually hope they don't implement a ladder system. Shoddy is competitive, and everyone uses the same OU standards because of that. Not complaining here, just saying that NB could be a nice alternative, without everyone trying to be NUMBA 1!!

Competitiveness predates Shoddybattle. If this is how you feel, I can safely state that Smogon is not for you. Do you know what the original Smogon slogan was? "Competitive Pokemon on the internet.". Smogon isn't "Your one stop shop for everything Pokemon related!", it's centered on the idea of making Pokemon competitive. Any time you have competition, people will be competitive. Although Smogon supports this, Smogon is not the cause of this. I can assure you that on NB for ADV and prior, people used "standards" with about the same regularity as now.

I liked Netbattles style. The battles were more fun, and team building was more enjoyable (in my experience).

It seems to me like your argument is not against Shoddy, but rather, against DPP.

NEW=GLITCHES=MORE TIME NEEDED TO FIX=BETA TESTING

I don't take how long a program has been out into account when judging its quality. A program with bugs is a program with bugs.

The team builder was MUCH better than Shoddy

I much prefer having my IVs / EVs / nature all on one page with my other stuff. There's no reason to have that buried behind an "expert" button, as though only power-users need to bother with that. EVs are a requirement for competitive play; they are not optional.[/QUOTE]

I have to point out that they are indeed trying, and that people who are not interested in it shouldn't even be posting here.

Why shouldn't we criticize the program? Without criticism, people will assume the program is perfect, and this is a false assumption. If my criticisms cannot be fully answered, I will not use the program. If they can, I will.

"Do or do not; there is no try." - Yoda

I judge programs by the current product, not by a promise of improvements later or by developer effort.

You know, all of yuor complaints about X in shoddy could be solved by forking it and solving it yourself.

This is an important point that I think a lot of people overlook. Shoddybattle is completely free (as in freedom) and open source; Netbattle is non-free and closed source.

Why does this matter?

It's simple. Shoddybattle can be modified by anyone, anywhere, at any time, for pretty much any purpose. If you think Shoddybattle is missing something, then you can fix it yourself. If it's a real bug, you can submit the code and it will be added to the main branch.

If Doug, for example, decides that your "improvement" is not something we want, then that's OK, too. You can create a fork and release your own version of Shoddy. If it's something as simple as an interface change, you can modify your own client to have the battle messages come out slower, animate the HP bar, or have your own text show up purple on your screen and still connect to unmodified servers like Smogon University. You can distribute this modified client for anyone else to download and use.

With NetBattle, however, you are unable to even seen the source. You have no idea if there are security holes (either intentional back doors or simple oversights). There is no way for anyone to audit the source without permission of the developer. This means you must trust the developers to have done a great job, to fix all important bugs in a timely manner, and to not have left any backdoors for them to exploit later (for instance, putting in some bug in the server code that allows them to crash anyone's server at will, or to give themselves administrative rights on all servers).

This also means you are unable to determine whether you'd be able to fix something before you even try to get the code from the developers (and it's unlikely they'll give it to people outside of their team because the entirety of NetBattle's security relies on people not knowing how it works). Once you do manage to get a hold of the code, any work you do on it is still owned by them. They can decide whether to use it, and if they say "no", that's it. NetBattle authenticates the client, which means even if you had human-readable code and were able to modify it to fix some annoying thing in the interface, you would be unable to connect to an unmodified server, unless they use weak authentication.

Weak authentication has its own problems, however. Authenticating the client usually means that this is an important security layer. You are trusting the client to actually be a real client. Being unable to authenticate means that this will likely open up more security holes (because client authentication was a part of their security strategy).

This is good news for me, I really dislike using Java based programs!

I, too, am not a big fan of Java. From my understanding, however, NB code isn't good, either. If they didn't fix this up, you are left with NB's horrible original code. If they did fix this up, that means that the magnitude of the task was at least equal to (and probably greater than) simply writing a new program.

I honestly don't see why they didn't just work on improving Shoddy's source if they're OK with Java, or make an entirely new program if they want to use a language like C / C++ (or Python if they want to try and compete with Shoddy's portability). As it stands now, they get all of NB's underlying flaws.

But NBS is "cleaner", IMO and more organized. I love The EV changing system, the damage calculator and writing the move's name to find it. I prefer the sort thing of NBS too.

I do like typeable moves, but the rest I disagree with. I prefer typing EVs than sliding. NB's damage calculator is always off by several %. In fact, NB's damage itself is incorrect. The most bizarre thing is that the built-in damage calculator of NetBattle and the actual damage done in battles, although both wrong, are wrong in different ways.

 

[chenman333]

Yeah, I much prefer typing the EVs/IVs. I hated the slides.

Typing names is a lot easier though, though its pretty easy to find most of the OU mons and Ubers. UU can be tough to find though, since many pokemon are on the obscure side.

NetBattle was more aesthetically pleasing, but the lack of ladder really turned me off :/

 

[obi]

I have some similar posts (more security-oriented) in this thread about NB .9.7:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50293

Many of the criticisms are presumably valid for both programs due to their similar heritage.

 

[Aeolus]

You can all stop any discussion about whether or not Smogon will be hosting a server on NBS. If the environment becomes such that hosting an NBS server makes sense, then we will. Until then, we will not.

The End.

 

[Sapientia]

Is there a chance, that smogon tour will be played at nb again? probably even with the old generations?

 

[phalanx]

got NB today and patched it up... doubles will be fun, only played double challange cup so far though... making a doubles team now in fact, hence why i'm on.. to see what exactly to put in as doubles is still 6 pokes

 

[Broth3r]

You can all stop any discussion about whether or not Smogon will be hosting a server on NBS. If the environment becomes such that hosting an NBS server makes sense, then we will. Until then, we will not.

The End.

Of course. But what defines "making sense"? Platinum/Bug Fixing/Admin will?

 

[Sapientia]

I guess making sense depends on the users will. If the admins see, that there are enough people who want a server, they will host one. If there are not many people who want one it does not make sense to host a server...

 

[tape]

So uh, getting away from the argue of NBS/Smogon, has anyone posted a Platinum moves DB mod yet?

I would sorta be surprised if they hadn't by now.

 

[Wiz]

<The truth>

Totally agree with Obi's post. I share the same exact opinions.

I feel that the developers of this new version are just some new-gen Masamunes. They, most likely, kept the horrible quality of the code, and didn't make any considerable improvement in security. NetBattle is still exploitable by anyone who has the source code of the program, which is a definition of insecurity.

I also don't like when people say that Shoddy's interface is bad, considering it's open-source. And I wonder how much time it would take to add the old generations and double battles to Shoddy, compared to adding D/P to NB. Even if it took longer, we would end up with a highly flexible, secure and portable simulator, while NetBattle has none of these characteristics.

 

[Purg]

So uh, getting away from the argue of NBS/Smogon, has anyone posted a Platinum moves DB mod yet?

I would sorta be surprised if they hadn't by now.

Several big servers have indeed begun adding the Platinum moves.

NB is full of brs who are using Garchomp in OU. It's awesome.

 

[Sapientia]

The bigger German Server already have a Platin Mod, I could ask the admins if they would mind to post it here

 

[Broth3r]

The Br's... well, that's unavoidable. But while most of us (me included) were in shoddy, their level inproved tons. There are some pretty damn good brazilians around right now. Of course they're not all... but wasn't it the same when smogon had a server on the original nb?
The use of Garchomp, the Cress ban... we have to understand that, even tough the DP metagame has been developing for the last year, a massive wave of players is only now adapting to it, and thus the metagame is very unstable. Just as for the bugs, Platinum, etc... give NBS 2 months to stabilize, and do the viability analisis then. It's not like shoddy didnt had the same problems...

 

[Mario With Lasers]

NB is full of brs who are using Garchomp in OU. It's awesome.

It's helpened bu the fact that any local tournament here allows you to use Garchomp. so yeah, as long as Garchomp's OU in NetBattle, they will spam it to no end.

 

[StarmanXL]

Okay, so after playing this for awhile, I can say the only real reason to play this over Shoddy so far is double battles, which are fun but the bugs really kill me, like the screwed up turn ends that make Explosion too much of a risk since it can kill 4 pokemon in one turn, not to mention Surf doesn't hit your partner effectively screwing up Ludicolo/Kingdra + Dry Skin or Water Absorb strategies. Still, it's a start.

 

[alive]

its not just the Br's who are spamming chomp, i am taking full advantage of being able to use an Uber in OU

 

[cim]

The use of Garchomp, the Cress ban... we have to understand that, even tough the DP metagame has been developing for the last year, a massive wave of players is only now adapting to it.

If these people actually cared about competitive Pokémon they would not have waited for Netbattle DP.

and thus the metagame is very unstable.

How is "the metagame is unstable" an excuse to theory ban a pretty mediocre Pokémon, or to ignore the tiers based on the very same Pokémon and movesets?

Just as for the bugs, Platinum, etc... give NBS 2 months to stabilize, and do the viability analisis then.

You sound like you're now changing topic mid paragraph to the bugs instead of the tiering. I'm going to assume you aren't, because if you are it's really hard for me to understand and respond to your point. Why would the NB metagame be significantly different than the Shoddy metagame? Why should NB ban things _before_ the metagame stabilizes?

It's not like shoddy didnt had the same problems...

We only theory-banned new things with >600 BST (or Darkrai). I'm not exactly happy that the Shoddy Uber bans were based on theorymon but at least they were based on the already kind of established Smogon DP metagame and not what the developers are guessing would be Uber or OU.

Actually come to think of it Shoddy "wasn't [isn't] much better off" but the ladder that enforced the bans came 6 months later.

 

[Broth3r]

If these people actually cared about competitive Pokémon they would not have waited for Netbattle DP.

You have to understand that even nowdays, if you do a survey with everyone that plays poke (not only competitivly), NetBattle is more known that Shoddy. I personally only knew of Shoddy's existance in August (and I was blessed to have Asta as tutor). You can't discard an intire community just because of that.

How is "the metagame is unstable" an excuse to theory ban a pretty mediocre Pokémon, or to ignore the tiers based on the very same Pokémon and movesets?

It's not an excuse: it's truth in this case. I strongly disagree with the tierings of Chomp and Cress, but as I said, it's an intire new community (including the developers), and I hope that they adopt correct tierings in a short amount of time.

You sound like you're now changing topic mid paragraph to the bugs instead of the tiering. I'm going to assume you aren't, because if you are it's really hard for me to understand and respond to your point. Why would the NB metagame be significantly different than the Shoddy metagame? Why should NB ban things _before_ the metagame stabilizes?

I'm not changing topic, because the topic isn't only the tierings.
And yes, I agree that Nb shouldn't have a different metagame. Just don't expect it to become a clone in less than one week or something.

We only theory-banned new things with >600 BST (or Darkrai). I'm not exactly happy that the Shoddy Uber bans were based on theorymon but at least they were based on the already kind of established Smogon DP metagame and not what the developers are guessing would be Uber or OU.

Actually come to think of it Shoddy "wasn't [isn't] much better off" but the ladder that enforced the bans came 6 months later.

Well, neither of us can do much about it. Let's just hope it doesn't last as long as it did in Shoddy.

You see to want not just not playing it, but to outcast the program and anyone that uses it. Again, and it's the 3rd time in 3 days that i say it, give them some manouvering space. This is the time for constructive, and not destructive, commnents.

 

[obi]

It's not an excuse: it's truth in this case. I strongly disagree with the tierings of Chomp and Cress, but as I said, it's an intire new community (including the developers), and I hope that they adopt correct tierings in a short amount of time.

But why does that matter? Why should the tiers be held hostage by the program developer rather than the server owners?

 

[White Base]

Seeing as how I was updating netbattle before this came out and I dropped it because it was no longer needed, I believe I should be making my own post to defend netbattle from alot of the retarded posts and assumptions.

I'm also going to ignore alot of the stupid posts that were made before the update was released, all I can say is follow the updates and stop your complaining.

I also think you guys should also know a ladder and a statistic grabber like what shoddy has is going to be implemented soon, so more of your pointless and stupid arguements will be ignored.

For all the people complainging "TOO BUGGY BOOHOOHOO", I think you better remember how bad shoddy was when it first come out.

ALE-*swear*-LUIA!
Altough I suspect this isnt going to be pacific... i'll explain: Lil-P was working on this, in cooperation with us (Atq) , but the database was leaked (probably by wiz, i'm ashamed that that guy is also portuguese). My guess s bayleef picked up the leaked database and worked it.
Still kinda bugged, and no pt update, but very good nontheless. IMO, shoddy has nothing on it, the only risk is that this new DPNB selfdestructs... you know what i'm talking about. I just hope it doenst happen.

This was a project that was being worked on since March 08, I had nothing to do with this.

Ladder systems are implementable through server scripting.

Like wizard said, you can make a server script to make a ladder. Just because it is not "Programmed" doesn't mean you cant use it.

And also you can record statistics with +BattleBegin and netbattle scripting, I don't get what you people do not understand.

If implementing a ladder is possible via scriptin, why could you not make ubers defined via scripting by the server owner?

You can define ubers by script, just because it says "Uber" doesn't mean you have to define it as an uber in your server.

Windows only... Shoddy is not windows only... Shoddy>netbattle.

Enjoy your wasted money on terrible specs and little customability.

Also for linux users, you can run netbattle with WINE, just a heads up.

I don't know if he just doesn't realize it, or if he's just choosing to ignore it, but the metagame's been developing for almost 2 years now. Did him and his staff just get into DP or something?

Did colin and his staff get to shape the metagame?

See two quotes up too. You do not have to follow netbattle's definition of "Ubers"

I'd play it for doubles, but Shoddy is generally superior for platinum, and CAP.

Thorns you dissapoint me. Platinum will come out later.

I've downloaded the program and found it to be EXTREMELY buggy for D/P. If it ever becomes a viable alternative to Shoddy, we will consider hosting a Smogon server there. Until then, Smogon has no support for this program.

That's ok raiding servers =/= support anyways.

Woo! I don't care! Netbattle is pretty much ten times worse than ShoddyBattle anyway, which is probably going to be ten times worse than Competitor. I can't run NetBattle on my computer... seriously what reason does anyone have to run NetBattle for DP instead of ShoddyBattle?

which is probably going to be ten times worse than Competitor
ten times worse than Competitor
worse than Competitor
Competitor

Besides the fact you've probably never played netbattle, I stopped reading right there, and your intelligence does not even deem you the rights to a response.

Oh NetBattle... Its been awhile, good times.

Will it allow people to keep track of usage statistics or ladders like Shoddy? Also what other foreseeable future features do you think it'll have?

Like I said, those are scriptable, and yes according to bayleef and the developing team they should come out later in server-features.
You can go to the "What's new" page on the netbattle supremacy website, and built in tournaments are being developed. I also gave bayleef my source code. So you may see a "find battle" option, and more scriptable options, which could possibly include working with the raw data.(which is similar to having open source.)

Yeah, they did. They didnt sleep for two years, only working in this thing. they've never seen smogon (their old supproters)
Well, i hope they fix that

Sorry I missed this retarded post, but I just need to say learn your facts before you go running your mouth.

Actually I hate to say it but after they basically built your house and you guys shat in it, I doubt they're too happy with Smogon's work as of late.

As for the Cresselia ban...

You do not have to follow the netbattle qualifications of "Uber".

Obi and Jump already responded, I don't believe I need to go any further.

Adding the lack of a ladder turns me off

Lack of intelligence turns me off.

If you've read this, user "Bad Ass", I don't need to explain anymore.

First when I saw this I thougt: Atlast a D/P double battle simulator. But the problem is that it does not work like PBR or D/P double battles. Dark Void is useless, All use level 100 pokemon. Aslong it doesn't simulate the normal double battle rules it's not worth using, Shoddy is alot better.

Boohoo go play PBR/Wifi, use level balance, or set your poke levels to level 50 and ask your friends to do the same.

I liked Netbattles style. The battles were more fun, and team building was more enjoyable (in my experience). Shoddy carries a ladder though, and of course I am not the kind to ever challenge anyone, which is terrible for people like me. If Shoddy got doubles then the only reason to use Netbattle (for me) would be the style, which I can survive without.

There will be a "find battle" option//ladder.

I can't register :/
I get the confirmation email, but when I click the link I get a 404 error.

You don't need to register to download it, lol.

this actually frustrates me as I actually like ADV much more than DP; unfortunately now it is near impossible to get an ADV battle... I've been online for about an hour and have gotten one... last week I would get one every five minutes

Just ask if anyone wants to play ADV, trust me alot of people will play adv. I'll play too ;)

the only problem i see is, that there's still the old (rby,gsc,386) game mechanik
(= you can "steal" turns of your opponent by sacrificing a pokemon to recoil/spikes/whatever)

It was somewhat fixed, I already let bayleef know.

The updates are nice and all, I still don't see this really being successful yet.

There's no "find tab" equivalent, so we have to go through the process of challenging, 90% of the time the person rejects you or is away. If they do accept it just happens to be someone who's completely incompetent at battling or they have 3+ ubers on their team (or what the server devs define as "uber"). At least on shoddy we don't have to go through a stupid process just to battle someone.

Also, the server's community is completely unfriendly, if they're not a bunch of brazilians who you can't understand, then it's a group of douchebags who have a condescending attitude. Yesterday I pointed out a bug in chat to see if I could get some help, I was called an idiot and was told I was using the wrong generation to build my team when it was clearly not a case of me doing something wrong. Without a nice, clean server to play on (smogon won't support this endeavor, they've made it clear) then I'm pretty much done with this.

Sorry, I gave it a shot.

You're stupidity also repulses me and does not deserve a dignified reponse.

The turn mechanics have not been fixed correctly.

Thanks bk, I let bayleef know.

I have to point out that they are indeed trying, and that people who are not interested in it shouldn't even be posting here. If you prefer Shoddy over Netbattle, go ahead, so why are you all even posting in this thread where people actually care about Netbattle? Leave these guys alone, they're trying as hard as they can to make another program for DP.

I'm quite interested in this for the Challenge Cup though.

Besides Jumpman's post, most intelligent post in the thread.

LonelyNess made some very intelligent posts, however

The slide bar is bad design. Why can't I just type my EVs in and go? Also, why do I have to 'lock' my EV bar in order for it to not change the EVs just in case I accidentally go over my alloted number of EVs? Then I have to go back to my SpA and readjust it because I accidentally put 140 Spe instead of 120 and my SpA bar went back by 20 EVs. It's all just one big cluster fuck. I can see why you might like it for "leftover" EVs being able to just bring the slide bar over until it stops, but for those of us who know our EV spreads, or for those getting them directly from a Smogon analysis, the slide bar is a hassle and unnecessary.

It goes both ways. If someone doesn't know their evs it will be easier for then and for someone who does well then I'm pretty sure the extra 3 seconds of your life won't be wasted because you "SLIDE BAR SO HARD I HAVE TO LOCK!!!". To be honest I think shoddy's EV system is terrible, the fact you can go over the 510 cap when you're trying to EV something.

To even go off the EV topic, the fact you have to do stupid shit like "TO USE HP ICE SOMENATURE ZAPDOS YOU NEED A 9 ATTACK EV THEN YOUR 30 DEFENSE IV" is just fucking stupid. And I see people all the time forgetting to set a move or an item or something like that.

Deal with it or ask bayleef if he could incorporate them both.

But in shoddy, if you cant memorize your opp team, just pass your mouse over the pokeballs, which is a MUCH better thing.

This SHOULD be coming later

But the worse things in NBS are the Team Builder that unallow battles, and the 2 windows in team builder.

You can open another netbattle/Two windows is nothing to complain about.

If anyone remembers the first shoddy release there were 4 fucking tabs per pokemon, and noone who has actually played netbattle before besides obi is honestly complaining about it.

Get over it.

Shoddy also has the advantage of better battle window info.

Shoddy is hard as fuck to follow, and it does not log the entire battle, only like 5 turns.

If your opponent has a status, their pokeball will be filled in. Also, you can mouse-over both pokemon to find out what status effects or field effects are in play.

Uh you can do this by hovering over pokemon, plus you can see your stats/stat modifications, and spin doesn't clear up spikes, and netbattle has fucking pictures to see status instead of having to remember everything on a "clusterfucked" battle window that is so hard to fucking follow it's just stupid.

Though I do like doubles mode.. which is the only clear advantage NB has over shoddy.

God actually play netbattle/get your facts staight you before you run your mouth.

Originally Posted by Fat Gen. Empoleon View Post
I liked Netbattles style. The battles were more fun, and team building was more enjoyable (in my experience).

It seems to me like your argument is not against Shoddy, but rather, against DPP.

No I believe he was talking about netbattle not the generation.

Originally Posted by Fat meteor64 View Post
NEW=GLITCHES=MORE TIME NEEDED TO FIX=BETA TESTING

I don't take how long a program has been out into account when judging its quality. A program with bugs is a program with bugs.

However alot of people do. I'm pretty sure you remember how buggy/terrible the first shoddy release was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat bearsfan092 View Post
The team builder was MUCH better than Shoddy

I much prefer having my IVs / EVs / nature all on one page with my other stuff. There's no reason to have that buried behind an "expert" button, as though only power-users need to bother with that. EVs are a requirement for competitive play; they are not optional.

[/quote]

I'm pretty sure noone complained when netbattle was around for years about having to click a button to go to the EV/iv page, also if you read my whole post I think I made my arguement pretty clear and the whole "EVERYTHING ON 1 PAGE IS SOOO MUCH BETTER" arguement is pretty dumb.

Besides the fact I think even a retard could figure out how to modify their evs/know that they are required to battle competatively.

I judge programs by the current product, not by a promise of improvements later or by developer effort.

Then you shouldn't have given shoddy the respect when shoddy came out.

This is an important point that I think a lot of people overlook. Shoddybattle is completely free (as in freedom) and open source; Netbattle is non-free and closed source.

And look what happened to netbattle every time the source was leaked.

9.4 boah bots were made, i wont get into more info here because it would start a shitstorm bigger than this thread.
9.6 exploits causing autocrash + development of x (x being too many to list).

reason shoddy can be open source is because it the client is based off of the server, not unlike netbattle where the client and server are seperate.

This means you must trust the developers to have done a great job, to fix all important bugs in a timely manner, and to not have left any backdoors for them to exploit later (for instance, putting in some bug in the server code that allows them to crash anyone's server at will, or to give themselves administrative rights on all servers).

Netbattle does not have any "exploit backdoors". ALL "crashing" was done by data being send to an empty packet, and due to a lack of like 4 lines it caused an infinite loop causing the server to overload and then crash. This is fixed now by the people that discovered the exploit.

All exploits known and unknown are fixed.

Also "netbattle bots made to [D]DoS the server" are now blockable, which shoddy lacks.

From my understanding, however, NB code isn't good, either. If they didn't fix this up, you are left with NB's horrible original code. If they did fix this up, that means that the magnitude of the task was at least equal to (and probably greater than) simply writing a new program.

The netbattle code is not "terrible", I honestly do not see why you guys complain about it, besides the fact it does not matter since you are playing netbattle and not the programmer, which does not give you the right to complain about "how shitty the source code is therefore it is a terrible program regardless to the fact that nobody cares and just want to play pokemon."

Also if the magnitude of the task was "SOOO HUGE", where is competitor? I don't see it.

I honestly don't see why they didn't just work on improving Shoddy's source if they're OK with Java, or make an entirely new program if they want to use a language like C / C++ (or Python if they want to try and compete with Shoddy's portability). As it stands now, they get all of NB's underlying flaws.

Why start from scratch when you can continue on something already made?


Now Wizards post will be hands down the reply I will have the most fun replying to.

Totally agree with Obi's post. I share the same exact opinions.

I feel that the developers of this new version are just some new-gen Masamunes.

An assumption that is most likely false.

They, most likely, kept the horrible quality of the code, and didn't make any considerable improvement in security.

Ok mister "security through obstruction = fixed security"

NetBattle is still exploitable by anyone who has the source code of the program, which is a definition of insecurity.

If you read my post about how ALL exploits were preformed, you will take back this statement.

Edit: Also a mass of certain packets or an overflow of certain packets, such as battleall and sometimes PM-All, it will cause RTE stream overflows.

I also don't like when people say that Shoddy's interface is bad, considering it's open-source. And I wonder how much time it would take to add the old generations and double battles to Shoddy, compared to adding D/P to NB.

Ok then if it didn't take so long then why didn't someone do it?

Better yet where is your "Almighty simulator".

Even if it took longer, we would end up with a highly flexible, secure and portable simulator, while NetBattle has none of these characteristics.

How is shoddy "Flexible"?

You cannot change much even with an open source for the client only, text and color is about it.

And if you make changes to the server, good luck getting people on it. I see smogon top 100% of the time, no matter what features you add.

Netbattle has indefinate customizability to the server (via the netbattle scripting language), and now it has MANY, MANY more features to both client and server.

If these people actually cared about competitive Pokémon they would not have waited for Netbattle DP.

All the people that played netbattle did not like shoddy, and play ADV competativelly. I like how you are so fresh to only 1 gen, you probably never set foot in another generation to understand all gens are way more competative (save MAYBE rby) than this current one.

How is "the metagame is unstable" an excuse to theory ban a pretty mediocre Pokémon, or to ignore the tiers based on the very same Pokémon and movesets?

Think REAL hard, bud.

Why would the NB metagame be significantly different than the Shoddy metagame? Why should NB ban things _before_ the metagame stabilizes?

If you read my whole post, I would not have to explain it here.

But why does that matter? Why should the tiers be held hostage by the program developer rather than the server owners?

The server owner does have the power, via scripting.

____________________________________________________________

Now that I'm done reply to all the posts in this thread that I felt dignified a response, Now I'm going to post my own opinions that I expect will be jumped on by many people.

Since the biggest shitfest arguement I've seen is "no ladder" and "NO PLATINUM", if you have patience it will come out.

Which the "no platinum" arguement is something I find ironic, since I've seen alot of "PLATINUM KILLED DP!!!!!!" on shoddy before.

Shoddy used to be so bug-fucked it was pathetic. Also who remembers how terrible the first update was?

No PM's
No ladder
Bug-fucked
Horrible interphase (still horrible)
6 tabs for a pokemon, and 4 tabs per pokemon in the team builder, 6*4 = 24 fucking tabs. I don't see why nobody took that into consideration when they are complaining "BOOOHOOOOO 2 TABS".

But people were giving it a chance.

Now you get a 4 gen sim and you dont give it a chance because it has some stupid shit you honestly think shoddy is better for? It makes me sick. (I bet this statement right here will get alot of "LOL UR OPINION DONT MATTER" and "WHO R U???")

I have not much to say about the pokemon side, except for if you were around when netbattle was the "hip and popular simulator", half your arguements would not even be said, besides the fact most of you dont understand you are getting 4 generations, not 1 like shoddy.

If you compare the ways vb6 runs compared to java 6 and actually understand and KNOW how they run, you would already understand how awful java is.

You allocate specific memory just for java and run of it? What a hog. Java is terribly slow, even when netbattle is [d]dosed, it is MUCH more considerably faster than shoddy.


To close my arguement let me just compare//contrast.

First with some battling aspects:

Shoddy: Only part of the battle, cannot check the whole battle.
Netbattle: Shows whole battle.

Shoddy: Very messy team builder, You can easily forget things, Ivs have to be lowered (See my hp ice zapdos example) to use hidden powers on certain pokes. IV restriction in general is fucking stupid and a waste of time. "Typing in EVS/IVs" is possibly the only thing shoddy has over netbattle.
Netbattle: Much cleaner, hard to forget things except maybe hidden powers, which people forget on shoddy anyways. Illegal move restrictions (Pursuit + SD snorlax is the most common example i've seen). "Sliding EV bar" is "bad and waste of time boohoo", EVs is restricted to 510 max unlike shoddy where you can go over.

Shoddy: No built in calculator
Netbattle: Built in calculator

Shoddy: The stupid fuck feature of needing to select the option "Use this team" in order to preserve the team you want to use.
Netbattle: Uses the team you just loaded and keeps it like that.

Shoddy: iirc you cannot set terrain, therefore nature power will not work
Netbattle: Will work

Shoddy: No automatic Save logs, often forget
Netbattle: Can auto-save logs

Shoddy: No self-KO clause
Netbattle: Always had a self-KO clause

Shoddy: Sprites may or may not load, I've seen this care for not only myself, but other people have said it too.
Netbattle: Sprites always load unless you delete your temporary image file.

Shoddy: Has a "modify-able" database for pokemon for anyone
Netbattle: Has a modifyable database, only for moves however. Scripting can fix the other part, i.e. ubers and etc.

Shoddy: ladder + statistics built in
Netbattle: Ladder and statistics are scriptable, with the latter being able to be scripted in about 30 minutes maximum. Both will be added later in the future.

Shoddy: Disconnect = battle loss
Netbattle: Disconnect = able to continue battle if you come back. Which is a VERY important fucking feature, I don't get why shoddy does not have it.

Shoddy: 1 generation
Netbattle: all generations + things such as true gsc, 200, and rby with trades

Shoddy: Has the find battle tab.
Netbattle: No find battle tab, but noone complained about this 3 years ago now did they?

Now non-battling compare/contrasts.

Biggest thing:

Shoddy: NOT ABLE TO STOP [D]DoS ATTACKS.
Netbattle: BUILT IN FIREWALL TO STOP [D]DoS ATTACKS. Programmer some reason took away the auto-block feature, however he will put it back in.

Rest:

Shoddy: No floodcheck to prevent chatspam. Someone loads a macro in main chat: gg
Netbattle: Does what above doesnt

Shoddy: You cannot scroll UP THE CHATBOX, because if someone says something in main chat it goes to bottom.
Netbattle: CAN FREELY SCROLL CHAT

Shoddy: If something happens: I.e. Someone leaves/joins the server, and you have someonr right-clicked(To pm or something), it cancels what you were dong.
Netbattle: doesn't happen.

Shoddy: Ban's are so easily bypassed by simply having a dynamic IP address/Proxying + making a new account. Lack of SiDBanning is to blame.
Netbattle: SidBanning ads more security to your bans. It's much harder to change your Sid than it is your ip (And the sidchanger (or maybe known as gg.exe) only works for xp and under, and with the mass amount of people starting to go to vista/windows 7, it is becoming worthless and unused.)(Besides the fact making an account is fucking stupid, it's such a waste of time + wastes time if you want to use another name.)

Shoddy: Does not have simple things such as /ignore player, cannot ignore battle chat.
Netbattle: Does have these things.

Shoddy: Instead of having a scripting module for easier use, you have to program it into the server, and then hope people will use your programmed method//hope people join your server.
Netbattle: Scripting module allows custom-made methods and allows more variability without the need to hard-code methods.

Shoddy: Slow interface
Netbattle: Clean and fast interface.

Shoddy: Clogs up your taskbar
Netbattle: takes up 1 slot, and you can easily switch between windows.

Shoddy: No voice chat
Netbattle: Voice Chat



Anyways

If anyone finds a bug, please report it to me, via pm.

 

[RBG]

To close my arguement let me just compare//contrast.

First with some battling aspects:

Shoddy: Only part of the battle, cannot check the whole battle.
Netbattle: Shows whole battle.

Can be a problem sometimes, but not a big problem.

Shoddy: Very messy team builder, You can easily forget things, Ivs have to be lowered (See my hp ice zapdos example) to use hidden powers on certain pokes. IV restriction in general is fucking stupid and a waste of time. "Typing in EVS/IVs" is possibly the only thing shoddy has over netbattle.
Netbattle: Much cleaner, hard to forget things except maybe hidden powers, which people forget on shoddy anyways. Illegal move restrictions (Pursuit + SD snorlax is the most common example i've seen). "Sliding EV bar" is "bad and waste of time boohoo", EVs is restricted to 510 max unlike shoddy where you can go over.

Since we are trying to stay true in in game mechanics, we have decided to use restricted IVs for pokemon who can't be gotten through breeding.

Oh, and you cant use a team if it has more than 510 Evs on a pokemon.

Shoddy: No built in calculator
Netbattle: Built in calculator

There are some online, I don't see how this feature makes it "better"

Shoddy: The stupid fuck feature of needing to select the option "Use this team" in order to preserve the team you want to use.
Netbattle: Uses the team you just loaded and keeps it like that.

I don't see how this is a problem. Sometimes, I am editing a team from 1 tier whilst playing in another tier. Plus I have multiple OU teams and like to look at them all at once.

Shoddy: iirc you cannot set terrain, therefore nature power will not work
Netbattle: Will work

1. You can't state it is an advantage if it doesn't work yet.
2. We use Nature Power as it works on Wi-fi.

Shoddy: No automatic Save logs, often forget
Netbattle: Can auto-save logs

Seems useful, since I like to look back on my matchs

Shoddy: No self-KO clause
Netbattle: Always had a self-KO clause

ok, i can't say anything here

Shoddy: Sprites may or may not load, I've seen this care for not only myself, but other people have said it too.
Netbattle: Sprites always load unless you delete your temporary image file.

I have never had a sprite problem with Shoddy Battle.

Shoddy: Has a "modify-able" database for pokemon for anyone
Netbattle: Has a modifyable database, only for moves however. Scripting can fix the other part, i.e. ubers and etc.

Don't fully understand this

Shoddy: ladder + statistics built in
Netbattle: Ladder and statistics are scriptable, with the latter being able to be scripted in about 30 minutes maximum. Both will be added later in the future.

Ladder wasn't built in, it has to be made for each server. Also, stats aren't built in. All that happens is that at the beginning of the battle, unseen to both players, the server saves their teams with their battle log, from which doug's script goes through to make the stats.

Shoddy: Disconnect = battle loss
Netbattle: Disconnect = able to continue battle if you come back. Which is a VERY important fucking feature, I don't get why shoddy does not have it.

This has been a problem, but isnt the biggest worry ever

Shoddy: 1 generation
Netbattle: all generations + things such as true gsc, 200, and rby with trades

OK, and how much longer has Netbattle been around to have those things built in?

Shoddy: Has the find battle tab.
Netbattle: No find battle tab, but noone complained about this 3 years ago now did they?

No, but it is a nice feature

Now non-battling compare/contrasts.

Biggest thing:

Shoddy: NOT ABLE TO STOP [D]DoS ATTACKS.
Netbattle: BUILT IN FIREWALL TO STOP [D]DoS ATTACKS. Programmer some reason took away the auto-block feature, however he will put it back in.

Rest:

Shoddy: No floodcheck to prevent chatspam. Someone loads a macro in main chat: gg
Netbattle: Does what above doesnt

Anti-flood-bot says "Hi"

Shoddy: You cannot scroll UP THE CHATBOX, because if someone says something in main chat it goes to bottom.
Netbattle: CAN FREELY SCROLL CHAT

you dont need to use caps to make your point

Shoddy: If something happens: I.e. Someone leaves/joins the server, and you have someonr right-clicked(To pm or something), it cancels what you were dong.
Netbattle: doesn't happen.

Or, you could use commands like "/msg"

Shoddy: Ban's are so easily bypassed by simply having a dynamic IP address/Proxying + making a new account. Lack of SiDBanning is to blame.
Netbattle: SidBanning ads more security to your bans. It's much harder to change your Sid than it is your ip (And the sidchanger (or maybe known as gg.exe) only works for xp and under, and with the mass amount of people starting to go to vista/windows 7, it is becoming worthless and unused.)(Besides the fact making an account is fucking stupid, it's such a waste of time + wastes time if you want to use another name.)

ok

Shoddy: open source, granted you cannot do much with it unless "DougJustDoug" wants to use your slim # of lines of source code.
Netbattle: Closed source.

and how does that make Netbattle better? I've always viewed open source as better.

Shoddy: Does not have simple things such as /ignore player, cannot ignore battle chat.
Netbattle: Does have these things.



Shoddy: Instead of having a scripting module for easier use, you have to program it into the server, and then hope people will use your programmed method//hope people join your server.
Netbattle: Scripting module allows custom-made methods and allows more variability without the need to hard-code methods.

OK

Shoddy: Slow interface
Netbattle: Clean and fast interface.

Shoddy's interface is very fast and clean for me

Shoddy: Clogs up your taskbar
Netbattle: takes up 1 slot, and you can easily switch between windows.

Nope, doesnt clog up my taskbar

Shoddy: No voice chat
Netbattle: Voice Chat

I don't want to talk to the people I fight

Also, I happen to like Macs and the fact that you seem to not care about me means that I have lost some respect for you. Don't insult others computer preference when they have their own reasons. I know for a fact that My mac gets everything I need to done and i do not see a need to get a Windows just to use a pokemon simulator

 

[the opponent]

Correct about everything? Anything that he couldn't respond to, he called retarded and claimed that retarded things weren't worth his time. By this logic, all I have to do is point out one typo and his entire argument falls apart. He assaults people for posting something contradictory to his argument despite the fact that he posted far after them.

Oh, and to claim that we are being unfair to NB because we gave Shoddy time to improve actually is retarded. If NB came out years ago, and had absolutely no competition that was already developed very well, it may be worth our time. The difference is, if we wanted competitive Pokemon at all, Shoddy was our only option. However, if we want a Pokemon sim now, we can choose the far superior Shoddy to NB, unless of course we want double battles, which everyone already acknowledged to be NB's only advantage.

 

[Resum]

Shoddy: open source, granted you cannot do much with it unless "DougJustDoug" wants to use your slim # of lines of source code.
Netbattle: Closed source

I don't see how you can't do anything with the source of shoddy. Please explain.

 

[Matthew]

It seems to me like your argument is not against Shoddy, but rather, against DPP.

Yeah, that is probably true Obi.