Data New Playstyle: Sequence Discussion and Testing

Deck Knight · Mar 25, 2012

A big thanks to Destiny Warrior for providing the idea behind this new system. I've always loved the more tactical elements written into ASB, and this system maximizes both timing and versatility.

What is a Sequence?

A Sequence is a series of moves used after one another that boost the power of the next move in the sequence. Think of it like a combination in a fighting game, where one move sets up another move for a KO. An example would be Fire Punch -> Mach Punch. Since both attacks are punching moves, Fire Punch could begin a sequence that ends with Mach Punch.

There are three varieties of sequence:

Ground Sequence: A Sequence that chains together moves on the ground. In general these moves will all be non-Flying type Contact attacks.

Aerial Sequence: A Sequence that chains together aerial attacks. In general these moves will all be Flying-type Contact attacks.

Ranged Sequence: A Sequence that chains together ranged attacks. All of these moves are non-contact.

What does a Sequence Do?

Sequences add to the BAP of subsequent attacks using the following values: +3, +6, +9, +12. So in a sequence of say Fire Punch ~ ThunderPunch ~ Mach Punch ~ Hammer Arm, Fire Punch is unboosted, Thunderpunch gets +3 BAP, Mach Punch gets +6 BAP, and Hammer Arm gets +9 BAP.

Ending a Sequence

The above sounds powerful, but note that only one Pokemon can be in a Sequence at a time, and sequences can be broken. With rare exceptions, Sequences can only be started or continued with damaging attacks or stat boosters. The Pokemon that starts a sequence first will have it in effect until it is broken, they miss with an attack, or that Pokemon uses a Sequence Ender.

Sequence Ender: A move that ends a sequence. With rare exceptions these are attacks with greater than ten (>10) BAP.

Sequences are broken once a Pokemon repeats a move already used in a sequence, exerts either 22 EN in a sequence, receives 16 or more damage with an appropriate Sequence Breaker. Repeated moves in a sequence gain no BAP bonus regardless of placement. The sequences end immediately in the case of damage, and after the attack that goes over the 22 EN threshold in the case of EN usage. There are two kinds of Sequence Breakers:

Ground / Ranged Break: Attacks that break up a Ground Sequence or a Ranged Sequence used by a grounded Pokemon. With rare exceptions, most ground breaking moves are the same moves used in Ground Sequences. Ground Breakers cannot break Aerial Sequences.

Air / Ranged Break: Attacks that break up an Aerial Sequence or a Ranged Sequence used by an airborne Pokemon. With rare exceptions, most air breaking moves are moves used in aerial sequences and ranged sequences. Air Breakers cannot break Ground Sequences.

Unfocused Status:

When a Sequence is broken, during the next action that Pokemon is in an unfocused state and cannot begin a sequence. Unless the move that broke the Sequence is a Sequence Ender for an opponent, the move that breaks one Pokemon's Sequence is the starting move of the opponent's sequence.

Ex.: If a Pokemon used Thunder to Air Break a sequence, it would not be considered the start of the Thunder using Pokemon's Ranged Sequence. If they used Thunderbolt, it would.

Combinations and Sequences:

Combinations do receive any BAP boost utilized in a sequence. Every combination is a Sequence Ender, and the Unfocused Status lasts during the cool down and the action afterward, meaning the Pokemon cannot start a new sequence until two actions after the combination.

STAB and Sequence:

General Notes:
Pokemon using a a STAB move (including stat boosters) in a sequence of the current Sequence Type will always continue / start the same kind of sequence. (e.g. Dragon Pulse to Flamethrower when either is STAB)

Pokemon using a move of the same type as the previous move in the sequence will continue a sequence, even if the move is of a different Sequence type (e.g. Fire Punch to Flamethrower regardless of STAB). The Applicable Sequence type will change based on the most recent attack's Sequence type.

Pokemon using a move of the same Sequence type after using a STAB move will continue / start that sequence. (e.g. Brick Break to Iron Head if either is STAB.)

STAB Bonuses and Sequence:
Normal: May continue a Sequence with any moves that share a like Sequence Type (ST).
Bug: May continue a Sequence with any multi-hit move.
Dark: May start or continue any Sequence with Taunt.
Dragon: May continue a Sequence with Fire and Water moves that share a like Sequence Type (ST).
Electric: May continue a Sequence with any Bug moves that share a like Sequence Type (ST).
Fighting: May continue a Sequence with any move classified as a Ground Sequence (GND).
Fire: Ignore the Sequence Ender designation of Solarbeam. May continue a sequence with any Ground move that shares a like Sequence Type (ST).
Flying: If the species is capable of learning the move Fly, Roost, or Wing Attack, have all contact moves considered Air Sequences (AER) and treated as both Ground /Ranged Breakers (GRB) and Air / Ranged Breakers (ARB).
Ghost: May continue a sequence with any Psychic moves that share a like Sequence Type (ST).
Grass: May continue a sequence with any Normal-type non-attacking move. If the move is a Sequence Ender, their Sequence will still end.
Ground: May continue a sequence with any move classified as a Ground / Ranged Break (GRB).
Ice: May continue a sequence with any Water moves that share a like Sequence Type (ST).
Poison: May continue any sequence with any Burn, Confusion, Paralysis, Poison, or Sleep inflicting non-attacking move.
Psychic: May continue any sequence with any Grass moves that share a like Sequence Type (ST).
Rock: May continue a sequence with any Ground move that shares a like Break Type (BT).
Steel: May continue a sequence with any Rock move that shares a like Sequence Type (ST).
Water: May continue a sequence with any Ice move that shares a like Sequence Type (ST).

Seismic Attacks and Sequence:
Bulldoze, Earth Power, Earthquake, and Magnitude are always Ground / Ranged Breaks.

Levitate, Magnet Rise, and Sequence:
Levitating (naturally or via the Command) Pokemon, or under the effects of Magnet Rise will have their contact attacks considered as Air Sequences and Air Breakers unless specified at the beginning of the Sequence. (Ex. you have a Carnivine trying to break the ground sequence of an Electivire, if it uses Power Whip you can specify it as a Ground Breaker even though Carnivive has Levitate.)

Smack Down, Gravity, and Sequence:
When affected by Smack Down or Gravity, all of a Pokemon's Aerial Sequence attacks become Ground Sequence attacks and are subject to Ground Breaks.

Sequence Flow in Battle:

Here's an example sequence flow in a battle:

Hitmonchan (Adamant, Figy Berry, Iron Fist):
R1: Mach Punch (9, 3) ~ Fire Punch (10, 6) ~ Thunderpunch (10, 6)
R2: Ice Punch (10, 6) ~ Hammer Arm (15, 6) ~ Mach Punch (9, 3)

Hitmonlee (Jolly, Mago Berry, Reckless):
R1: Double Kick (9, 3) ~ Brick Break (11, 5) ~ Hi Jump Kick (18, 7)
R2: Jump Kick (15, 6) ~ Low Kick (11, 5) ~ Hi Jump Kick (18, 7)

R1 A1: Hitmonchan hits first with Mach Punch, setting up its sequence first. Hitmonlee uses Double Kick, but doesn't do 16 damage, so Hitmonchan's sequence stays intact.

R1 A2: Hitmonlee's Brick Break also doesn't do 16 damage, so Hitmonchan's Fire Punch continues its sequence, getting a +3 BAP boost.

R1 A3: Hitmonlee's Hi Jump Kick strikes and does more than 16 damage, immediately ending Hitmonchan's sequence. Hitmonchan's Thunderpunch gets no sequence bonus. However, because HJK is a Sequence Ender, it can't be the first move of a new sequence.

R2 A1: Hitmonlee moves first, hitting with Jump Kick and starting up a sequence. Hitmonchan's Ice Punch doesn't do 16 damage, so Hitmonlee's sequence continues.

R2 A2: Hitmonlee's Low Kick continues the Ground Sequence, getting +3 BAP. Hitmonchan's Hammer Arm does more than 16 damage, and ends Hitmonlee's sequence. Because Hammer Arm is not a sequence ender, Hitmonchan's Sequence begins immediately.

R2 A3: Hitmonchan strikes first again with Mach Punch, getting the +3 BAP boost for being part of a sequence. Hitmonlee's Hi Jump Kick connects, doing more than 16 damage and ending Hitmonchan's sequence once more. Because Hitmonchan's sequence ended after it attacked, Hitmonchan cannot set up a new sequence, even if it uses Bullet Punch instead of Mach Punch next action.

After R2:

Normally:

Hitmonchan:
(12 + 14 + 21 + 18 [Figy +15] + 14 + 21 = 100)
90+15-100 = 5 HP
100-30 = 70 EN

Hitmonlee:
(14 + 15 + 15 + 15 + 20 + 14 = 93)
90+15-93 = 12 HP
100-33 = 67 EN

With Sequences:

Hitmonchan:
(12 + 14 + 21 + 18 [Figy+15] + 17 + 21 = 103)
90+15-103 = 2 HP
100-30 = 70 EN

Hitmonlee:
(14 + 18 + 15 + 15 [Mago+15] + 20 + 17 = 99)
90+15-99 = 6 HP
100-33 = 67 EN

The difference does not appear substantial, but remember if either Pokemon had managed to put a third attack in their sequence, it would have received +5 BAP. In Hitmonchan had combined Bullet Punch with Hammer Arm, the move would have 23 BAP [12 + 3 (STAB) + 2(IF) + 6(Sequence Bonus) to total 22 BAP]. Had Hitmonlee been able to take the initiative in Round 1, it could have finished Hitmonchan even through Figy Berry. Now I didn't calculate critical hits or status on these, so they could have made a difference as well. Any crit on Hitmonchan's punches would have broken a Hitmonlee sequence for example.

It also doesn't account for SE attacks, which amplify BAP boosts. The effect in neutral matchups is not large, but in matches where one opponent has a severe type weakness, breaking the opponent's sequences is crucial.

There will be more details coming soon as to moves with special properties, this is an introduction for your review.

Attack List for Sequences:

The comprehensive list of every attack's sequencing properties, in the following format:

Sequence Type: | Break Type: | Sequence Ender: | Special Attribute:

Sequence Type (ST): Aerial (AER), Ground (GND), Ranged (RAN), Any, or None. (Moves that start Any Sequence are susceptible to both Ground and Air Breaks)

Break Type (BT): Air / Ranged Break (ARB), Ground / Ranged Break (GRB), or None.

Sequence Ender (SE): Yes or No.

Special Attribute (SA): Any unique characteristics the move possesses.

- - - - -

This is currently a WIP since not all moves are codified, and some moves like Sky Uppercut will have unique breaking features, but otherwise most of the system is operational.

LouisCyphre · Mar 25, 2012

So, is this some sort of alternative game mode?

smashlloyd20 · Mar 25, 2012

LouisCyphre said:
So, is this some sort of alternative game mode?

No, I'm pretty sure this is just an implementation for ASB as a whole...

Glacier Knight · Mar 25, 2012

i'm sure though if it is a implementation for asb as a whole, if some people don't like it they can simply just put "No sequence shenanigans" in their battle challenge description, alongside the other details.

LouisCyphre · Mar 25, 2012

The construction of a seperate list of pure Sequence parameters for every move gives me hope.

I want to play this, but I don't want to play this every match or explain it to every new member.

The Wanderer · Mar 25, 2012

This...actually sounds kind of awesome.

That said, I do think it'd be a good idea to make this optional.

Flamestrike · Mar 25, 2012

Echoing the fact that this seems pretty cool, but really difficult to explain to new people. Making it optional seems strange though, and tbh I'd rather see it in than out.

Galladiator · Mar 25, 2012

I don't know about this, tbh. It looks like it turns ASB a bit too much from an adaption of battling in the Pokemon anime (which, I might add, was the original inspiration iirc) into a fighting game. I don't see something like this--essentially Street Fighter with Pokemon--becoming too big.

Complications · Mar 25, 2012

This is very well-though out, and I like the new element of strategy it applies. Suddenly moves like Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, and Ice Punch seem much more useful for things other than coverage, but I agree that this should be optional.

Gerard · Mar 25, 2012

My only concern is that while most pokes have a secuence STAB regarding a particular type, Fighting can use every contact move, which makes up for a huge part of their movepools (elemental punches, fighting attacks, slash, claw and even recoil attacks, etc...) which seems a bit unfair compared to other pokes STABs

waterwarrior · Mar 25, 2012

Honestly, since the only time I've seen these in action is that example in the OP, I can't really make a conclusion about this. However, I think that these should be made optional, a lot like switching (as in "combos = ok" in the battle tower post).

Metal Bagon · Mar 25, 2012

I think this is just an attempt to make ASB more fresh when in actual fact I think it's making it more complicated.

I personally wouldn't want it and if it was implemented I certainly would try to avoid battles that allow it as much as much as possible.

Its_A_Random · Mar 26, 2012

From my understanding from being present on IRC when these were discussed, It's not going to be implemented immeditately, it's going to be trialled first, see if people like it. So...yeah, new mechanics...Yay...

Deck Knight · Mar 26, 2012

This is going to be tried out for now. I have no intention of making this mandatory until it's a: finished and b: tested, and even then I'd have it as an option. It adds all sorts of wrinkles into the system, and it's very difficult to follow.

Basically I consider it to be something of an "expert mode" that would result in more compensation for refs and battlers. The matches would be more difficult to ref because of monitoring sequence flow, but they'd also be over more swiftly.

So just to reiterate:

This will not be mandatory. This is a test of a system that will start out seperately to see if people enjoy it or if it becomes too complex, but it achieves goals related to combating move SPAM and in general rewarding not only what moves you have, but when and how you use them.

zarator · Mar 26, 2012

I like the aspect of these mechanics, but I think they should be restricted to Singles, Doubles, and any other format which allows three orders per round for any given Pokémon. In formats like Triples, with only two orders per round, it'd be very ugly flavor-wise and not so practical, IMO.

MrcRanger97 · Mar 26, 2012

Anyone for Hadoukens and Shoryukens?
Anyways this looks great and can't wait to try it out.
good thing im good at the fighting games :)

Objection · Mar 26, 2012

Well it's a nice way of giving weaker moves some use (I know there's also the combo effects for some of them, but most of the time those aren't worth it), and it adds a layer of strategy beyond "use single most powerful move".

<~Onion_Bubs> I give sequences a 10 out of 10 right now.

Elevator Music · Mar 26, 2012

I don't know, I guess my only real complaint regarding this is that it seems to move us further away from ASB's original concept [of Anime Style Battling], as Galladiator pointed out. I also think it's a little overcomplicated and might deter newbies....

That being said, I can see why people would want this, since it's a relatively cool concept.

Complications · Mar 26, 2012

@Elevator Music

Well, in theory, in real life (or anime) it's harder to take a kick or a punch etc. if you're already injured, so it is applying that factor.

Maybe someone could write a simplified version for said newbies? I personally don't think it's conplex, but I'm sure plenty do.

TheWolfe · Mar 26, 2012

So far from what I read, it certainly adds a new dimension of strategy to battles, especially in neutral matchups where there's no significant type disadvantage between combatants. However, it also sounds very convoluted to keep track of, especially in large scale battles as zar mentioned. This is because it is probably the first mechanic that's not adapted from any part of the Pokemon canon or any other ASB out there, as well an additional factor to keep track of when it comes to selecting moves, and more importantly, how to use them properly.

Ultimately, the best choice is to test this thoroughly to see if it works in practice.

Objection · Mar 29, 2012

OK, Lord Jesseus and I had a sequences battle and my first thought is that the speed stat of a pokemon suddenly becomes much more important, especially if you have few moves that can reliably break the opponent's sequence. Priority also becomes considerably more important. Meanwhile, high attack and special attack make it easier for a pokemon to break an opponent's sequence, while high defence and special defence make it easier for a pokemon to maintain a sequence.

Something else I mentioned to Destiny Warrior is that the whole "unfocused" thing is very, very, very hard to understand. When does it happen? When does it decay? What happens after it decays? So I would suggest removing the unfocused status and simply having the sequence counter reset to 0 whenever the unfocused status would happen.

Data New Playstyle: Sequence Discussion and Testing

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.

smashlloyd20

Glacier Knight

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.

The Wanderer

Flamestrike

Galladiator

Complications

Gerard

waterwarrior

Metal Bagon

Its_A_Random

A distant memory

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!

zarator

^_^

MrcRanger97

Objection

Elevator Music

63194

Complications

TheWolfe

Objection

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