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Nobody expects the butterfly: Butterfree in NU

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by bobbyvaporeon, Mar 9, 2013.

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What do you think of Butterfree?

  1. Really Good, it's always on my team!

    14 vote(s)
    11.1%
  2. It's ok, but it has it's flaws.

    97 vote(s)
    77.0%
  3. I would never use this pile of crap.

    15 vote(s)
    11.9%
  1. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    [​IMG]
    BUTTERFREE
    Stats: 60/45/50/80/80/70
    Over the past 4 generations, Butterfree has been a Laughingstock in competitive battling. With horrible stats, a terrible movepool, and being completely outclassed by Bug Types such as Venomoth, Pinsir, and even Vespiqueen. When Stealth Rock was introduced, it seemed that Butterfree would never see use again. So what propelled butterfree to being usable, good, even getting a RU analysis?

    There are two reasons for this. The first is that the Dream World granted Butterfree Tinted Lens, giving it an almost unresisted Bug Buzz. THe second was Quiver Dance. If you have been battling at all over the last year or so, you know exactly what Quiver Dance can do for a Pokemon. With the second-best boosting move in the game under it's wings, people looked at Butterfree in a new light. Still having Sleep Powder, Roost, and Substitute with it, Butterfree gained the ability to wreck unprepared teams.

    Butterfree @ Leftovers
    Ability: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe, Timid Nature
    Moves:
    Sleep Powder
    Bug Buzz
    Quiver Dance
    Roost/Substitute/Giga Drain

    This set is simple: Either come in on something that you force to switch out, such as Sawk's Choiced Close Combat, and set up a Quiver Dance, or put something to sleep. THanks to TInted Lens, Butterfree's Bug Buzz is nearly undesisted. The least slot can be used for free setup, or healing. Overall, the original butterfly can pose a huge threat to teams.

    So what do you think of Butterfree? Let me know by replying, and thanks for reading!
  2. The Quasar

    The Quasar
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    First of all, I appreciate those who like you, they take different capabilities, IMHO this is the soul for tier's growth.
    My vote was for the second option, my little cent about: the combination of Substitute and Quiver Dance is perhaps the best for Butterfree, then I'd use that for fourth slot.
    Although I'm aware about Butterfree (perhaps the best Quiver Dance sweeper in the tier is Masquerain), I think that few HP, impossibility to eliminate heavy SR weak and Sleep Power almost guaranteed to debilitate ONE pokemon. Which can be "falling asleep" while the pokemon which switch in can hit Butterfree.
    In fact many pokemon have the right moves to strike it, including those that are most commonly used in NU.
  3. MarshallLeRoy

    MarshallLeRoy

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    I've been really interested in trying Butterfree out and this thread may just be the impetus I needed to do so. When looking at the top threats in the tier, Butterfree seems very anti-meta at the moment.

    Obviously Butterfree needs a spinner, and Rapid Spinning has never felt less advantageous to me in NU. But a well built team, especially one that can lure in choiced Sawk, could really take advantage.

    Plus, a way to potentially steam roll through Musharna and Gardevoir is an option that has to be explored right now. Too few Psychic killers in the tier at the moment.
  4. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    Point with Butterfree is that it has paper defences. With SR up, it can't even take the lightest touch, and unless you use the butterfly in a lead position, Butterfree has less bulk as Pikachu... literally.

    Yes, it is great to use for Double Status and the likes, but I can't see it being useful otherwise since it has trouble setting up QD and is very frail. It is rather slow as well meaning it can't really deal with T-Bolt Gardevoir unless it has two Quiver Dances under its belt, and even then it is not too powerful if you have something at hand to wall it.

    No, Butterfree is not my piece of cake, but I can see it working against unprepared teams.
  5. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    If you're considering a set up set. I'd argue Compoundeyes provide Better utility. Sleep Powder isn't exactly known to be the most reliable move in the game + without it your set up options are rather slim. Because that is Terrible bulk.
  6. Iridescent.

    Iridescent. formerly Bluwing

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    I disagree with this because Tinited Lens works much better when sweeping as Butterfree's STAB is literally none resistant, and will therefore patch up a moveslot for something like Substitute, as this will ease your predicitons without you worry about stuff that resist your STAB move, and then get totally walled. Compoundeyes are indeed good, but are better with something more supportive in my opinion, like double spore as Sleep Powder causes switches and can easely let you paralyze common switch ins like Rotom and Haunter.
  7. jrp

    jrp Waves grow frigid as darkness freezes light
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    tinted lens is the way to go. Only sets that should run Compoundeyes are double powder sets, which aren't the most common thing out there.

    I rather like Butterfree, it's a really cool mon and it's nice that something so... deceptively weak looking can terrorize a good portion of the tier after a single turn of set up

    I really wouldn't run roost on it though, even after boosting it's incredibly frail
  8. Nyara

    Nyara

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    Butterfree with Compoundeyes: You're gonna do something 39 of 40 times.
    Butterfree with Tinted Lens: You're gonna do something 3 of 4 times.

    I don't know, but I prefer to stop any Stealth Rock lead, any lead plan generally, and being able to sweep or at least do damage most of the time on place of just some matches, if you miss Sleep Powder you'll gonna play a 5vs6 battle, and that's not a good thing.

    Yeah, Tinted Lens is cool, but Butterfree's Bug Buzz is already not too much resisted on the tier and if you're really dying for unresisted stuff, Hidden Power Flying and go. Usually, Tinted Lens doesn't change the fate of a sweep, when Compundeyes make you sure you'll gonna sweep on certain circunstance o you're gonna battle a 6vs6 battle all the time.

    Anyway, I love Butterfree, I sweep an aprox. of the 30% of the teams on just the first few turns, once Cinccino leaved the Tier now the only thing that stop Butterfree from making at least some havoc is the 2,5% miss rate of Sleep Powder with Compundeyes, and when Butterfree is being blocked by bad sleeps and stuff... well, a sleep will make it a 5vs5 battle, anyway.

    Double Powder is also good for supporting and stuff, but it's not so easy to put on good practice. But well, in my opinion, Butterfree is one of the best leads on the tier.

    BTW, Butterfree is a lot better suited as a lead, so, you're not gonna really need spinner support, but some people had already a lead plan on its hand, so, yeah, use a spinner if you're not gonna lead with Butterfree, but I don't advice that as it's harder to put on practice. By the way, your team should have a plan against common sleep talkers and Pokémon who absorb Sleep Powder like Miltank.
  9. Cloudz

    Cloudz

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    Butterfree is strong but the problem with her is she has to hit the sleep powder to start QD up. Also after rocks sawks close combat is a 2 hit ko. Which would force you to spin and possibly lose the chance you were looking for. Unless you let the pokemon to die to sawk to get in for a QD setup. Also lead golems would terrorize her as there are many that run lum berry and would massacre you with rock blast. Several of the common walls can just easily paralyze you and let you kill yourself or stall you out.
  10. Governess

    Governess A Beautiful Blossom Waiting to Bloom
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    I voted the 2nd option; agreeing with what Cloudz said, hoping for Sleep Powder doesn't seem worth it in some situations. But I can't list the number of times that when it was successful, Butterfree managed to land quite a few KOes. And yeah, I wouldn't use it outside of a lead; even with a Rapid Sin user, SR is a pain.

    It's sort of sad of how some of the NU players I've played doubt Butterfree's capablities. It is a great Pokemon to use, if you use it correctly, that is.
  11. bobbyvaporeon

    bobbyvaporeon

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    Why are people still posting on this lol
    Anyways, I now agree that Compoundyes is the better ability. Although I don't use Butterfree on my main NU team anymore, I still use him on other teams and he works well.
  12. Laga

    Laga Drinking is borrowing happiness from tomorrow
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    This is an interesting discussion that you have produced, and I must say that Butterfree definately can work in NU. As we can see, almost everyone answered: It's ok, but it has it's flaws. in fact, over 75% did. This is clear, because Sleep Powder + Quiver Dance is of course frightening, and it has 2 great abilities, though the notable flaw is of course it's horrible unexisting bulk, especially on the physical side.

    But I do think that there is another set to compete with the set you have posted; the Compundeyes + put something to sleep with good accuracy :^D Here is the set I have in mind:

    [​IMG]
    Butterfree @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Compoundeyes
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Sleep Powder
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Giga Drain / Hidden Power [Ground]

    I find that this is just as good a set as the main QD set; your set. I think a good discussion could be which set is the most effective. Of course, the set I post here is more effective at coverage and hitting Sleep Powders, as it also carries the sash to get off almost a guaranteed Sleep Powder. Though I must admit, it's much weaker to priority, and provides no recovery like your set.

    I see this latest post, that you have given in. Don't, for Tinted Lens is a good ability too. People are still posting on this because they want to discuss it. So let us discuss :]
  13. Harbinger of Peace

    Harbinger of Peace

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    Tinted lens is still a very good ability for Butterfree as it lacks a lot of much-needed coverage without it. Sleep powder becomes very accurate with Compoundeyes, but Butterfree lacks coverage moves to sweep as effectively.
  14. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I like Butterfree, but the main issue I see are Sap Sipper mons that threaten Butterfree like Zebstrika for instance
  15. dragonpokeZ

    dragonpokeZ

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    Tinted Lens is a cool option, but seriously, Butterfree can't survive if something destroy it because a missing Sleep Powder. Butterfree can provide good coverage with Bug Buzz and HP Flying anyways, and the extra accuracy on Sleep Powder is a safer strategy than a Sleep Powder with even less accuracy than Stone Edge (and all of us saw at least once a SE failing, either on our side or in the opponent's)
  16. Robust Raichu

    Robust Raichu

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    I think Butterfree is a poke which either does a lot or nothing at all (granted in some games a sleeping Poke is basically a dead Poke). It's frailty and average initial attacking power necessitates its need for at least one QD to pose a threat to non-psychics and grass types. Very much so a high risk, high reward insect. On this note it's hard to say whether Compound Eyes or Tinted Lens is a better ability. I think if you want to be more conservative and ensure that Butterfree will always have utility without the sweep, use Compound Eyes, but then again if you're that conservative of a battler, maybe you shouldn't be using Butterfree in the first place. Hmmm...
  17. Kentucky Fried Colonel

    Kentucky Fried Colonel

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    Why would a sap sipper mon threaten it?
    I've used Butterfree before, and It worked a couple of time really well, but other times it fell flat on it's face. This was however, when i was new to NU. The main problem really is it's x4 weakness to rocks, but that isn't a killer if you know what you're doing. With quiver dance and a x4 rocks weakness, it coulld be compared to a weaker volcarona (without fire type of coures). It's a big risk reward mon, as it absolutely need 1 quiver dance to do anything and 2 to have a chance to sweep. It also takes skill and finesse to work, but it is arguably one of the top set up sweeper in NU, up with Carracosta and Scolipede, if played right.
  18. Jajub123

    Jajub123

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    Butterfree faces competition from really on poke only: Masquerain. They each have different qualitative aspects that set them apart from eachother. Masquerading aims to be more of a team player whereas Butterfree aims to sweep for itself (or can preform a support set with double powder but that is typically innefective due to there being better paralysis inducers). Masquerain has the rare feature of having QD and BP together which makes it a staple on most BP teams. Also both have helpful abilities that help them achieve what they want to do. Masquerain has Intimidate which increases its physical bulk so it can BP and stay around longer. Butterfree has CE which gives it awesome coverage with just Bug Buzz which is quite the feat. In my personal opinion I like Masquerain better but that's just my opinion.

    @Robust Raichu:

    The only risky thing I see about Butterfree is Stealth Rocks. Obviously you need a spinner to negate this but if your spinner is dead...well things aren't looking bright for Butterfree. NU also lacks a reliable spinner. Armaldo for example is a premier spinner but as you can already tell it's flawed. It can act as an offensives spinner as it has insane attack but (ironically) it has a weakness to SR. Getting back on topic my point is SR is really the only gambit with it.

    Butterfree can easily sub if it forces something out and then put whatever comes in to sleep (if it isn't a wall that has trouble breaking your sub). Then it can reliably set up QD's and proceed to sweep.

    For the ability I personally think TL is way better. It is much more beneficial for a sweeper which Butterfree naturally assumes. CE is better for support but due to Butterfree's lackluster defense Stat and its 4x weakness to SR is really harming.

    All in all I think Butterfree can be a great Pokemon if used correctly.

    Edit:

    @Kentucky Fried Colonel:
    You have a point that Butterfree does suffer from SR greatly but it really isn't that hard to set up. Only Pokemon with strong priority such as Manta's duel priority can take it down or pokemon with sturdy such as Golem. Golem can OHKO with Rock Blast but otherwise it's fairly reliable.
  19. skylight

    skylight the cold never bothered me anyway
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    Because they can easily come in on Sleep Powder, outspeed and OHKO.

    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Miltank Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Butterfree: 477-563 (182.75 - 215.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Butterfree: 351-413 (134.48 - 158.23%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Butterfree: 469-554 (179.69 - 212.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    All of them can also OHKO without Sleep Powder too so it's essentially a free switch in if Butterfree opts to sleep the opponent rather than QD.
  20. Kentucky Fried Colonel

    Kentucky Fried Colonel

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    Ok, didn't realize that :p But still, good predicting and you could get off some damage
  21. Robust Raichu

    Robust Raichu

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    Um... That doesn't really argue with my point that it's a Pokemon that will either sweep or abjectly fail. I'm not saying it's unfeasible or not competitive to use, but with SR, strong priority moves, SP misses, and sap sippers you have one risky Pokemon that needs a whole lotta love to shine.
  22. Jajub123

    Jajub123

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    Well you do have a point on if it will either sweep or just...well...fail. But doesn't this apply to most sweepers? Take Jynx for example. Butterfree is practically in the same boat as most set up sweepers such as Carracosta or the aforementioned Jynx. You also do have a point on the fact that Free is susceptible to priority as things like Kangaskhan and Swellow. Carracosta can also give trouble through AJ. This can all be somewhat alleviated through Substitute. Your other points are really not that big of an issue because:

    Rocks-Spinning Support
    SP missing-CE but really the accuracy isn't terrible (it's more-or-less like saying you shouldn't use moves that could miss)
    SS-ers-Most decently competent can predict a switch and go for the attacking move

    Also I'm still not so sure what your defenition of "risky" is (offensives pokemon?)

    One last final note is the fact that it can accomplish various things besides sweeping such as spreading status through its powders and it can also revenge kill to a certain extent even though it has some mediocre speed.
  23. Robust Raichu

    Robust Raichu

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    Aye, friend, no, and this is the point I'm trying to get at. While Jynx certainly appreciates the chance to set up she doesn't need to in order to seriously threaten fighting or grass types with her STAB moves and her simple presence on the team deters the use of water moves. Thus even in a fast paced situation where there is little chance to set up Jynx can still pull her weight. I'm not so sure the same can be said about Butterfree. Without a setup how many Pokes are really threatened by an unboosted Bug Buzz?

    As to your other arguments I agree! I'm in no way saying Butterfree can not or should not be used (in fact I've seen it used very well) but as your laundry list points out, the proper support is very necessary for her success.
  24. Jajub123

    Jajub123

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    While of course Jynx is deterring to see on an opposing team (everybody should know that since the recent tier shift) it doesn't mean that it can always pull her weight. Withought a boost she is walled by so many things (I.e. Grumpig;Metang;Lickilicky(if not carrying FB);Flareon(especially for mono-attacking sets);etc.). Jynx's main claim to fame is how easy it is to set up with her (and relatively the same thing for Carracosta; Costa just requires a bit more prediction). So same thing for Butterfree. And saying that without boosts Jynx can threaten certain types is quite vague; you should list things that she specifically threatens. And even if so your point is invalid because can't Butterfree threaten "specific types) without a boost as well? (As I also said Butterfree can still assume a support role by spreading status and revenge killing certain walls which it can even set up on.)
  25. Robust Raichu

    Robust Raichu

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    OK, sorry to others for the tea party here.

    Let's not get into obvious generalizations like everything has walls and counters. The name of the game is speed, coverage, and power. With a middle-of-the-road speed (75), typical limitation of only having Bug Buzz, and a weaker attacking power (80), when BBfree comes in she can only really threaten the status and the sweep. Compare this to other faster sweepers like Jynx who have higher speeds, already threatening attack power, and decent to great coverage, they can come in threatening up to half of the opponents team with OHKO's or 2HKO's. The potential power boost is just an added threat against walls there really, not a necessity for their utility. Thus when you have a Jynx on your team, it is less high risk high reward (granted Jynx needs a nuanced player at its frailty) because it threatens fast coverage in addition to its potential boost.

    Fighting types are too general? Choice banded or mixed Sawk. Extremely common and very threatening. Out sped and OHKO'ed by Psyshock. But that's the last I say about Jynx on a Butterfree thread :)

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