scarf keldeo is probably the best scarf user in the game, but it certainly has exploitable flaws. it's pretty much useless against defensive teams, and i don't think that's a disputable point.
Keldeo is a very good mon, sure, but it also plays an important role in the metagame. Not only that, but its usual checks/counters are still good Pokemon regardless of Keldeo's existence, and its not putting a strain to our teambuilding the way Landorus did. Jellicent is still the best spinblocker in the game; Lati@s, Celebi, Amoonguss/Roserade are good checks to Breloom and other fighting types; Starmie and Tentacruel spins; physically defensive Gastrodon handles Rotom-W and numerous rain and physical threats; Toxicroak is still a solid rain sweeper, and so on.We also shouldn't forget that Keldeo is useful for the Metagame as it can Revenge Kill a lot of powerful threats like Dragonite, Alakazam, Garchomp, Gengar, Jirachi, Volcarona, Gyarados (Icy Wind that drops its Speed) etc. We would really miss it if it finally gets banned.
What kind of offensive pressure did you apply exactly? All I see is you scraping a win vs a guy who didn't make the smartest plays all game (and not the smartest Celebi set for that matter), because he summoned permanent rain and you happen to have a Kingdra. Really the only "relevant" part of that replay is the part where the opponent has a Keldeo. All I learned from that replay is that Kingdra in rain wrecks~I would like to use this mere example to show how a team with checks and offensive pressure can deal with Keldeo:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-40494117
If you think Keldeo is impossible to revenge or switch-in to you're absolutely silly!Keldeo brings nothing positive to the metagame. It makes rain and sand offense overpowered and restricts team building. Its just another ridiculous powerful threat that happens to stand out from the pack by being nearly impossible to revenge kill and switch into. Whether you believe its broken or not its up to you but the fact is its not a good influence to the meta, all it does is make the dominant playstyles even stronger than they are.
@SmashBrosBrawl I wouldn't call that "nothing positive".We also shouldn't forget that Keldeo is useful for the Metagame as it can Revenge Kill a lot of powerful threats like Dragonite, Alakazam, Garchomp, Gengar, Jirachi, Volcarona, Gyarados (Icy Wind that drops its Speed) etc. We would really miss it if it finally gets banned.
X5Dragon said:No, I'm saying is: "I have no counters to Keldeo and can check it and utilize offensive pressure to eliminate it".
Also, no one said Keldeo didn't do well against offense; only that offense also does well against Keldeo.
Maintaining offensive pressure isn't as hard as you try to imply AND offensive teams are built to maintain offensive pressure.
Keeping Stealth Rock isn't too hard. Pairing a Stealth Rocker isn't even complicated in the slightest. But hey, you're the one who hasn't used Stealth Rock on some of your best HO teams, so what would I know. Keldeo doesn't give a shit about priority at all, Mach Punch is basically all it needs to concern itself about unless it is low in Health or the opponent has boosted attack. It is already pretty bulky, and the typing it has just supports itself. Jellicent, Ammoongus, and Cress are all seen on defensive teams. Toxicroak can be 2HKO'd by Specs Secret Sword, and although it is a very underrated Pokemon that usually "checks Keldeo" (srsly its cool try it out), it can definitely be beaten. Venusaur under sun can handle it, although who uses Venusaur outside of it? So in that entire list you compounded 2 Pokemon that can somewhat consistently beat Keldeo that are offensive. Toxicroak, and Venusaur. You left out Lati@s and Starmie, but then again offensive Starmie gets wrecked consistently over time. To be honest you don't really even need to pair that much too support Keldeo to break through its high usage counters. Considering 3 of those are completely weather-reliant you're not using them that often. Ojama put this perfectly in listing Keldeo's counters, and I think I said it more than once KELDEO DOES NOT DO WELL AGAINST STALL AS WELL AS IT DOES AGAINST OFFENSE. This has been said by so many players, I don't know when it will get through to you.needs much more than SR to "break through". It also needs to keep said SR in the field (and have an SR user) and either strong checks to spinners or/and spinblockers. And then it needs all outspeeding pokemon to be dead (no priorities, no bulk investment to tank a hit), be relatively in good health (to escape death to neutral priorities), kill anything that can tank it's hits and threaten to status or damage it (Jellicent, Ammongus, Toxicroak, Cresselia, and Venusaur, etc.) and prevent the opponent from setting up by applying offensive pressure (ironic, right).
Keldeo doesn't like facing defensive teams, it does FAR BETTER against offense. When you can comprehend that then talk to me. Don't laugh yet? I should be the one laughing, your arguments are fucking stupid. Literally, you can't even grasp the concept of "stall teams don't care about Keldeo as much as offense" even after being said so many times. When you can point out WHERE I SAID 7-8 I will maybe consider this sequence of events. I defended the fact that offense does bad against Keldeo. You have said HO handles it well through offensive pressure, you're the one who brings nothing new to the table at all. I don't know who else has to tell you offensive pressure doesn't work that well against Keldeo. Most offensive teams get destroyed by Keldeo, as they are all light checks / counters. Maybe Lati@s can handle it, but really outside of that you can absolutely do work against offense. Ojama is a great player, and he just said basically the same thing I did in how Keldeo does well against offense. Does that mean you'll always win? No, obviously. Also, your last sentiments literally mean nothing at all. You can't apply offensive pressure as easy as you say, just please, stop. Keldeo can absolutely destroy offense if given a bit of an opening. It can manage to 2HKO most offensive teams with ease, and wear them down very quickly. I have a feeling you wouldn't do as well against actual competent players who can use Keldeo correctly.Let's see how this started:
1) X5D begins posting in topic saying Keldeo worries defensive teams more than offensive one, on the ban side fence until I read enough arguments.
2) Someone angry starts saying offense suffer against Keldeo
3) Joins discussion defending offensive teams against Keldeo
4) PDC backs up claim that offense sucks against Keldeo
5) X5D continues defending offensive teams against Keldeo
6) PDC accuses me of saying HO handles Keldeo well therefore not broken (don't laugh yet)
7) X5D points out to number 1
8) PDC backtracks and says I said it some time ago and insists I go back to defending HO again
Your statement about offensive teams only being able to use offensive pressure to beat Keldeo implies that offensive teams are effective WITHOUT offensive pressure. Offense barely need counters to beat Keldeo. They just need sturdy checks and offensive pressure to do the job.
Is that some sort of fucking paradox? Keldeo does fine against offense, it is the other way around. YOU said Keldeo didn't do well against offensive, it does well against stall. YOU said that Keldeo can be beaten apparently so easy with offensive pressure, even when facing "good players." Let me get this fucking straight. Your replay was facing a scrub. Shutugal's haxxed a player while applying basically no real offensive pressure at fucking all. If anybody is backtracking, its you.No, I'm saying is: "I have no counters to Keldeo and can check it and utilize offensive pressure to eliminate it".
Also, no one said Keldeo didn't do well against offense; only that offense also does well against Keldeo.
Well no fucking shit they are. I never would have figured that out by myself. But it is harder against Keldeo than it is against so many other threats that you can apply more simple offensive pressure too. Keldeo has great coverage, great power, and does overall very well against offense. IT IS HARDER IN PRACTICE THAN IN THEORY. Can you win against Keldeo with offense? Of course you can, but you have to realize you are at a bit of a disadvantage.Maintaining offensive pressure isn't as hard as you try to imply AND offensive teams are built to maintain offensive pressure.
They are still at a pretty decent disadvantage. My posts already argued this so many times, offensive teams ARE at a disadvantage, offensive pressure doesn't always beat Keldeo. Just like Keldeo can't always 100% destroy offense, but still, Keldeo has a very distinct advantage. undisputed, VN, and Ojama have both pointed it out.Then stop saying these bizarre comments, if offensive teams can win by applying pressure against Keldeo that means it working just fine.
Shurtugal crit his Jirachi. You faced a player who wasn't very good, he didn't even have Recover on his Celebi, which is just plain stupid. Your replays mean nothing. Shurtugal asked for the replay to be removed btw, so I guess she wasn't so proud of it. gr8stard said this perfectly, why don't you listen to him?I faced someone who couldn't support his Keldeo, Shurtgal forced her player to give up Keldeo after he failed to support it and couldn't keep it out of harms why while she had 2 outspeeding checks. You interestingly haven't shown anything so far that demonstrates how powerful Keldeo is against a well built offensive team. Care to share or is CAPsing and loling your only strengths?
Yes I am putting Amoongus or Gastrodon on my offensive team. Or NP celebi lol. Latias maybe, but if I don't run max HP than I just get crushed by Keldeo and still doesn't solve Ttar issues. Also specs jelliI don't know if you have played OU or read the thread at all but lati@s and dragonite are not the only answers to keldeo.
Alright give me an example of these offensive teams because I guarantee they have some smart answer for keldeo. Note that you never really can completely stop some threats. You can't legitimately stop terrakion. It can always go for stone edge OR close combat and basically 2hko the entire game at minimum. I don't understand the idea that you always have to have a hard counter for everything especially with the clusterfuck of shit introduced in gen 5. I personally think keeping weather only exasperated this clusterfuck but that is a different story. Tell me... How the flying fuck do you beat a banded or scarfed darmanitan in the sun with your weatherless team? Besides something like heatran what can legitimately step in a kill it? Don't say keldeo.Curtains, he is speaking as an offensive player and none of keldeo counters fit in such teams, as such he is restricted to use soft checks (if they switch into icy wind, they lose).
You are thinking about the game to linearly. You are essentially talking about a team that is all dragons/sweepers right? That's not a good team bro. You have a ton of shit that can prevent a keldeo sweep. Toxicroak, alakazam, sun and the plethera of pokemon that resist it's main moves can stop of force keldeo out to regain momentum. Also know the fact that keldeo has to switch in most of the time or come in on the revenge.... So if you damage it early then it becomes way easier to handle in the endgame. if you work your resist and scout the way you are suppose to then you can find ways to beat it.Dude every single sweeper out there can revenge kill darm not to mention its sun reliant and suicides everytime it attempts to wallbreak. Terrakion can be revenged easily by scarfers or priority because its weak to like everything. Keldeo doesnt has any of these issues, thats why this thing is on a whole new level, over all the other sweepers in the tier. Scarf latios and to some extent dragonite are the only reliable offensive answers for keldeo.