NP: Doubles OU Stage 2 - Monster | Mence is banned | Hoopa not Banned

[Hashtag]

ok time to start posting in this thread!

My biggest concern with mence is that it closes more doors than it opens. (at least in terms of teambuilding) I feel that we should vote to keep the metagame more open, and allowing mence restricts players more than it frees them.

I am aware that right now many players are using 4-5 mons that have a decent matchup versus against salamence right now, and while others say that this is overcompensation, i disagree, and i find that if i ever have two mons out which would give mence a free dragon dance, i am liable to lose the game flat. and even with this many answers, the mence player still has a really good chance to win the game.

I really just hate setup sweepers in doubles honestly because the 50/50s they force are always so absolute. it is either "you get this predict right and we keep playing the game," or "you get this wrong and lose flat to the setup." Obviously that alone isnt enough to warrant a ban, but it is a part of what has helped me form my opinion, so i thought i would bring it up.

 

[Checkmater]

ok time to start posting in this thread!

My biggest concern with mence is that it closes more doors than it opens. (at least in terms of teambuilding) I feel that we should vote to keep the metagame more open, and allowing mence restricts players more than it frees them.

I am aware that right now many players are using 4-5 mons that have a decent matchup versus against salamence right now, and while others say that this is overcompensation, i disagree, and i find that if i ever have two mons out which would give mence a free dragon dance, i am liable to lose the game flat. and even with this many answers, the mence player still has a really good chance to win the game.

I really just hate setup sweepers in doubles honestly because the 50/50s they force are always so absolute. it is either "you get this predict right and we keep playing the game," or "you get this wrong and lose flat to the setup." Obviously that alone isnt enough to warrant a ban, but it is a part of what has helped me form my opinion, so i thought i would bring it up.

What kind of doors does it close?

IMO it doesn't stop any team archtype, many of the mence checks were already landorus checks, also tr seems to be thriving in this meta

and I see your point about setup sweepers but the same can be said of bunnies

 

[Hashtag]

What kind of doors does it close?

less with archetypes, in fact trick room is thriving due to mence's pressence. More to do with individual mons-- if it lets mence set up, you probably shouldn't be using it right now at all

bunnies

which i detest lol

 

[qsns]

I'm of the opinion that if you can't prove it's broken then unban it, not the other way around.

Uhh, this suspect test is trying to change the status quo. It's the other way around; it's already been banned once, so it's up to the people for bringing it back to prove why it should. Vague arguments of "it's not overcentralizing guys xd you're ridiculous" isn't really doing that (especially when you're pushing for tier 3 stuff as pretty viable in the mega mence meta!!!).

Anyways, what I think pushes mence over the edge is the strength of its every single one of its attributes. It's got the attacking stats of offensive titans such as deo-a and shaymin-s and the ability to go either physical or special. The speed tier it hits outspeeds the coveted 110 established in OR/AS and the combination of both of these allow it to do obscene things such as knock out hasty mdiancie at +1 with a resisted attack (+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Diancie: 233-274 (96.6 - 113.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO). Its bulk and pre-mega ability give it so many set up opportunities and it becomes a game losing liability to have 2 things on the field that allow Salamence to set up a DD. (-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 138-164 (41.6 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO lol)

Why does it sound like i'm regurgitating arguments from the last thread + earlier posts? because there's literally nothing else to be said. You look at this monster's combination of stats, abilities, and options but it doesn't only have that: it has insane offensive and defensive synergy with mons such as Excadrill and Jirachi. Any sane person would want this out of the tier. It's up to the people pushing for this test, not for the already-proven majority, to explain to us why this monster should be allowed back in the tier.

 

[Empress]

Just like last time, I'm adamantly pro-ban. There is not a whole lot more that needs to be said about Mega Mence's brokenness- talking about its raw power and incredible synergy is basically beating a dead horse at this point. Moreover, if one of the reasons for the retest is the rise of Mega Diancie, as stated in the OP, then that's honestly a rather dumb reason. Mega Diancie was always a viable mon in ORAS DOU and was always a check to Mega Mence. It may be seeing a bit more usage nowadays, but usage =/= viability. In addition, M-Diancie is a rather shaky check to begin with (s/o to qsns for the calc in his above post). And if the Mence user opts for Return and the Diancie user opts for Naive over Hasty:

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 178-210 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So basically, M-Diancie must be at high health in order to even check (not counter) Mega Mence. To re-introduce Mega Mence into DOU because M-Diancie is getting used more often is silly.

 

[realiti]

After testing a lot with Mega Salamence and attaining reqs, I can safely say that Mega Salamence is way too overcentralizing and needs to leave the metagame. One of the many reasons why I think Mega Salamence needs to leave the metagame is because of how easy it is to set up with Mence. Most of the time, you only need 1 DD to sweep the opponents team, even before endgame. The process of setting up a DD is extremely easy and doesn't take much effort at all; all you really need to do is use Follow Me on Jirachi, take advantage of Salamence's natural bulk, or bring in another mon to deal with the other two. Mega Mence has very few counters, and most of those can easily be dealt with because of Jirachi's Follow Me/Iron Head and help from other mons. We also have to remember that Mega Mence and Jirachi aren't the only mons on the team; you still have 4 left to deal with the opposing team, whether it be striking offensively or taking blows defensively. You really can't find a weakness with Mega Mence that can't be fixed. Mega Mence's stats are also crrazy. 145 Atk with Aerilate boost is insane, crushing most of the metagame without any effort. As you can see from these calcs, even some pokemon who can OHKO mence can't really counter or check it due to being wrecked by Return/Frustration

44+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 319-376 (114.7 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 44+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 163-193 (51 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 246-289 (77.1 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
44+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Sylveon: 231-273 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even without max attack, Salamence can easily deal colossal damage to the mons that can OHKO it. With prior damage, Mega Salamence can deal with nearly every single mon in the metagame. On top of that, Mega Salamence has massive defenses that are made even better with Intimidate. When intimidated, Adamant Landorus-T can't even break a Mega Salamence's substitute with Rock Slide.

-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 152 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 78-92 (21.1 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Mega Salamence also has a solid special defense so it can take some hits when needed. Mega Salamence also hits an amazing speed tier: 120 speed. With 120 speed, you can outspeed the musketeers, Metagross, base 100s, and much more (basically 90% of the metagame). You can adjust your speed and bulk to make your Mega Salamence according to your team's needs.

Mega Salamence is also ridiculously easy to support. Aside from Jirachi, Excadrill also works as an amazing supporter for Mega Salamence, dealing with the Fairies and Steels that threaten Mega Mence. Literally anything that can deal damage relatively well and has decent bulk is a great supporter to Mega Salamence. Offensive and defensive synergy is also nice as well which is easy to provide. Mega Mence can be used at any time, which makes it so threatening (mostly used in endgame tho) and it can threaten a sweep at any moment.

Overall, Mega Salamence is powerful, bulky, an amazing set up sweeper, fast, and easy to support. This mon of way too overcentralizing, and many players have to change their teams , some of them entirely to deal with this monster. Every teams need AT LEAST 2 mons to deal with Mega Salamence, and most have more, which proves how overcentralizing this thing is. Mega Salamence HAS to leave the metagame, it's just too powerful.

 

[Martin]

I mostly play VGC, but from playing the tier I have found that Mega Salamence isn't actually overly hard to deal with - only landing itself in A rank there. While I understand that there are differences between the metas (namely everyone and their mother using Sylveon in VGC - unless I am just looking at the wrong usage stats (too lazy to check if its DOU and change if it isn't)), there are large portions of the metagame which are very capable of handling it, and the prevalence of Trick Room isn't exactly helping its cause, with Cresselia commonly carrying Ice Beam to deal with Landorus-T and M-Mence. I won't say anything else as I'm not going to get too deep into this suspect, so best of luck to anyone going for reqs :)

 

[AuraRayquaza]

I mostly play VGC, but from playing the tier I have found that Mega Salamence isn't actually overly hard to deal with - only landing itself in A rank there. While I understand that there are differences between the metas (namely everyone and their mother using Sylveon in VGC - unless I am just looking at the wrong usage stats (too lazy to check if its DOU and change if it isn't)), there are large portions of the metagame which are very capable of handling it, and the prevalence of Trick Room isn't exactly helping its cause, with Cresselia commonly carrying Ice Beam to deal with Landorus-T and M-Mence. I won't say anything else as I'm not going to get too deep into this suspect, so best of luck to anyone going for reqs :)

The difference between vgc and DOU is that we allow the use of jirachi, which makes salamence infinitely harder to deal with. Now cress cant simply ice beam because that gives salamence a free turn (follow me) and makes it much easier to for mence to set up a DD and go ham. While pokemon like sylveon and gardevoir can bypass this redirection with hyper voice, they need relatively heavy support (redirection, tailwind, tr) to get a hit off before mence ohkos them

 

[teal6]

By the end of getting reqs I was a bit peeved to see how spammable the Salamence/Jirachi cores were. However, if it were just the two of them, it honestly wouldn't be that bad. The cast players around that core are what make it so difficult. Someone above had pointed out how they knew Icy Wind would become popular, able to avoid redirection and still hit Salamence 4x SE. However, Bisharp puts an end to that plan, it's so simple to switch him in and immediately have a +2 priority move on the field.

I will likely vote Ban, the first time I've ever done so in suspecting, because it's legitimately just not fun to play against Mega Salamence due to how much you have to account for it. I don't have the level of experience a lot of other voters do, but I've played mons for quite some time and my gut, as well as the games I've played, tell me that Mega Salamence is not good for the tier. The HO team I was using (the Finally Sun Offense team..literally the first one in the sample thread) had a tough time with that combination of three, and Salamence in particular. After 1 DD it OHKOd everything on my team sans Rhyperior, who, if intimidated, was generally useless afterward. I guess Shaymin Sky also lived with a sash haha.

But all things considered I think the amount that a player must account for this monster means it's just not super fun for teambuilding and centralizes strategies. The goal of any given tier should be to encourage creativity and number of options within a reasonable framework, and to my best knowledge Salamence is anathema to that.

 

[zaaya]

Welp. During this suspect i tested out quite a few teams/strategies during this suspect to see how well they can function with Mence on the loose and like i expected some just can't function properly at all. Having a meta with Mence around seems to put a lot of pressure on how you teambuild because of how good the thing is. Then again its not something impossible to beat but it is quite a huge threat >< currently leaning either way rn. -sucky post is sucky x_x -

 

[Heliosan]

Just got my reqs yesterday using a very borked team that was passed to me by my friend GRAND EMPRESS.

Some of the wins that I got on the way to reqs was using an old Charizard Y team that I built, but most of the games was played with this team. From what I gather in the 5 losses that I picked up, the things that gave me trouble were mainly Icy Wind paired with a Pokemon that threatened my potential switch-ins. A well supported Substitute Kyurem-Black team also gave me issues and was one of the losses.

As for whether to ban or not ban, still thinking about it and will see what other people have to say. I think it's easier to beat in practice than on paper, but that's just what I think.

I got his permission to post this team, so feel free to use it, change the EV spreads, change the nicknames (like I did), whatever to your heart's content:

Rise of Malevolence

Malevolence (Salamence-Mega) (F) @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 60 HP / 172 Atk / 84 Def / 4 SpD / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Frustration

Io (Jirachi) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 80 SpD / 108 Spe
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Follow Me
- Thunder Wave
- Iron Head

Krakatoa (Heatran) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Earth Power
- Heat Wave

Windrunner (Shaymin-Sky) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Earth Power
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare

Tom (Azumarill) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough

Jerry (Raichu) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fake Out
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
​

 

[deoxys speed]

The main problem that I have with Mega Mence isn't that Jirachi and it form a pretty hard to break offensive core which is only really troubled by Excadrill in sand, Heatran(both beaten by EQ Mence), Mega Abomasnow, Mega Mawile(both need trick room up to be truly effective), Rotom-Heat, Thundurus, Aegislash, and opposing Jirachi with icy wind(all easily beaten with two of my favorite Mence partners Bisharp and Kyurem-B).

The problem I have with it is that it limits team building like crazy. Mence almost requires you to run 3+ counters on your team to keep it from being overwhelming . It has Shaymin-Sky like speed, Cresselia like bulk, and Landorus-T like offenses all with an amazing set up move, reliable recovery, and a great pre-evolution ability, intimidate. Doubles has always been a tier where any play style could be used effectively(barring stall) Mega Mence makes Balance, Sun, and Rain to an extent almost nonviable. When Mence gets up one dragon dance the amount of offensive pressure it has is truly remarkable being able to OHKO and 2HKO a majority of the meta. I don't understand when Kyle says trick room hasn't gotten any better when it is one of the best ways to pressure Mence.

I also highly agree with Qsns, this mon has already been banned. It is not the people who think Mence should stay banned job to convince everyone why it is broken, it should be the people that want it released job to convince us otherwise.

 

[Astounded]

I have been laddering for reqs the last 3 days and i have tried almost every playstyle from Hyper Offense to Bulky Offense and now i have a pretty clear idea about the Mega-Salamence in the current metagame.

Mega-Salamence makes the metagame worse. As it currently stands, I do not believe it is broken outright. However, I believe it is powerful enough that there is very little downside to using it, and even against an opposing team with "counters and checks," it will usually net more than one pokemon's worth in value and potentially much more and its existence forces you to prepare for it in such a way that the metagame has become coinflip-esque: if you prepare hard for it and they don't bring it, you're screwed, and if you only pack a soft check or two and they bring it, you're screwed. That, in my opinion, is not a good metagame.

What constitutes an enjoyable meta is ultimately subjective, and will differ from person to person. For instance I did not enjoy the suspect ladder metagame because I felt the prominence of balance teams on the ladder was overwhelming, as was the presence of Mega-salamence on a lot of teams and the way it restricted teambuilding in my eyes.

Of course, if you use an offensive playstyle / like a metagame characterized as offense/hyper-offense, naturally Mega-Salamence wouldn’t seem overbearing. I see this mon as I top threat and I honestly don't think that something like this should return in the doubles OU metagame.

Ban

 

[dramadrama]

The main problem that I have with Mega Mence isn't that Jirachi and it form a pretty hard to break offensive core which is only really troubled by Excadrill in sand, Heatran(both beaten by EQ Mence), Mega Abomasnow, Mega Mawile(both need trick room up to be truly effective), Rotom-Heat, Thundurus, Aegislash, and opposing Jirachi with icy wind(all easily beaten with two of my favorite Mence partners Bisharp and Kyurem-B).

The problem I have with it is that it limits team building like crazy. Mence almost requires you to run 3+ counters on your team to keep it from being overwhelming . It has Shaymin-Sky like speed, Cresselia like bulk, and Landorus-T like offenses all with an amazing set up move, reliable recovery, and a great pre-evolution ability, intimidate. Doubles has always been a tier where any play style could be used effectively(barring stall) Mega Mence makes Balance, Sun, and Rain to an extent almost nonviable. When Mence gets up one dragon dance the amount of offensive pressure it has is truly remarkable being able to OHKO and 2HKO a majority of the meta. I don't understand when Kyle says trick room hasn't gotten any better when it is one of the best ways to pressure Mence.

I also highly agree with Qsns, this mon has already been banned. It is not the people who think Mence should stay banned job to convince everyone why it is broken, it should be the people that want it released job to convince us otherwise.

lol how mence does make rain unviable? by beeing a sun check, inimidate and a phenomenal grass killer? think for a sec before you post sth

 

[Derivatives]

lol how mence does make rain unviable? by beeing a sun check, inimidate and a phenomenal grass killer? think for a sec before you post sth

Actually both Rain and Mence usually lose to lots of forms of speed control (tr, tailwind, twave spam) and I believe he meant to say that it was hard for a rain team to beat, since Jirachi redirects every Ice Beam that I doubt would KO Mence easily and lets Mence set up without any struggle at all. Mence really ruins the whole archetype of Rain, which now that I think about it this makes me more want to ban :/

 

[deoxys speed]

lol how mence does make rain unviable? by beeing a sun check, inimidate and a phenomenal grass killer? think for a sec before you post sth

I'm not saying Mega Mence doesn't fit on a rain team, I'm saying it gives rain teams a lot of trouble. Also rain isn't as good as it used to be at the moment so putting another mon(Mence) into the meta that gives it a hard time definitely wouldn't benefit it.

 

[Stratos]

dear every1: pls stop making a shitpost, remembering ur not allowed to shitpost, and then going ILL EDIT ACTUAL THOUGHTS IN HERE. this is like the fourth time ive had to delete that shit

 

[GRAND EMPRESS]

Well I guess I should go ahead and speak my mind on this now, hm? ^_^


Well for starters, I believe Mega Salamence is definitel a MASSIVE force in the metagame. Beig very hard hitting able to 2HKO most of it's prey with Return/Frustration, being able to boost it's already high offenses and speed with Dragon Dance, a nice base ability in Intimidate, and great overall natural bulk. IT can take hits, deal massive damage, and be used as Intimidate utility before meg evolving. Now personally, I think Salamence can fit back into the current metagame. IT definitely rocks certain team styles and fits very well on hyper offense and offensively based balance teams (like mine),, but it isn't without it's own flaws and it isn't without its own weaknesses. It has weaknesses to very common moves within the metagame like Rock Slide, Icy Wind, takes neutal damage from Discharge, Blizzardoblitertes it, and unless running a special set does NOT want to handle a burn coming from a Zard Y or Heatran's Heat Wave. And with these moves, notice they are al spread moves that bypass the highly common redirection carried on 90% of teams running mega Salamence.


Now with this comes a few mons that can keep it relatively in check. For starters, Landorus-Therian. One of the two mons in the S-tier for Viability and one of the most commonly used mons in the meta. Landorus can come in on this monster and Intimidate it from the start, putting it at an immediate setback. Afterwards, nothing really stops it from shooting off a Rock Slide to rack up damage and possible flinches. Next up is a mon known as Thundurus-Incarnate. This thing can freely fire off a Thunder Wave, perminantly crippling Salamence’s amazing Speed as well as a chance to not move for a turn. Thundurus also resists Salamence’s main STAB and almost always carries Hidden Power Ice that ill hit for x4 damage and will net an easy 2HKO on the behemoth. Another couple I’ve seen are Mega Metagross that run Ice Punch. The Clear Body ability blocks the Intimidate first turn and unless running Earthquake (which from what I’ve seen 95% of Mega Salamence don’t), Metagross will be nothing but tickled by its Frustration and be able to rock it with a Tough claws boosted Ice Punch. Even without Ice Punch, Zen HEadbutt and Iron head can hit Mega Salamence decently hard for a nice 2-3HKO along with the threat of being double targeted by the partner. Along with Mega Metagross, Salamence is also threatened heavily by common Sand Offense and will eed team support to deal with these threats. Tranitar and Excadrill both can do a good number to it. Excadrill’s Rock Slide can still hit for a nice chunk of damage even after an Intimidate, and Tyranitar’s Ice Beam will net a 2HKO on Mega Salamence and possibly an OHKO depending on the spreads being run. Bulky Steel types such as Heatran, Aegislash, the aforementioned Metagross-Mega, and Jirachi wil heavily wall the common mega Salamence as well as be able to rack up respectable damage on the monster. Bisharp, though not many seen on the latter, would love to catch the Intimidate from Salamence and strike back hard with a Sucker Punch or an Iron head if possible, dealing a good load of damage on the thing. These are just a few things that keep the monster in a pretty tame position. This isn’t counting for Wash Rotom and Sableye who both can fire off a Will-O-Wisp on it, Trick Room teams in general tend to stomp on Mence HO completely, largely by things such as HP Ice Mega Camerupt, Mega Abomasnow, Mega Mawile, and Mega Ampharos. And any Pokemon that can freely spam Icy Wind such as Suicune, Milotic, Keldeo & Gengar (to an extent), Cresselia, and Darkrai. And of course, finally there are Hail offense teams tend to make Salamence fly away with its tail between it’s stubby legs.

Now here I’ll show the team that went 34-7 on the Suspect latter and got me my reqs, which I also lent to my good friend, Heliosan

Rise of Malevolence

MALEVOLENCE (Salamence-Mega) (F) @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 60 HP / 172 Atk / 84 Def / 4 SpD / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Frustration

BLESSING (Jirachi) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 80 SpD / 108 Spe
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Follow Me
- Thunder Wave
- Iron Head

★FURNACE★ (Heatran) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
- Protect
- Substitute
- Earth Power
- Heat Wave

★GRACIA★ (Shaymin-Sky) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Earth Power
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare

BONNIE (Azumarill) (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Protect
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough

ピカ (Raichu) (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fake Out
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

​

The team is a bit standard for Mence HO, with the standard Salamence-Jirachi core. I have Azumarill as a secondary setup sweeper that could also benefit from redirection from Jirachi and serves to act as a nice offensive core and part of my Fire-Water-Grass core with Shaymin-Sky and Heatran. Heatran’s main purpose is to wall out opposing Salamence as well as break down any opposing steel types that attempt to wall out my own Salamence. Substitute also gives me a nice option to apply a good amount of offensive pressure to opposing teams rewarding my good predictions or switch forcing. The Raichu is on this team to provide fast Fake Out against the likes of Kangaskhan and the rarely seen Infurnape as well as provide Lightning Rod support to redirect Thunder Waves and Thunderbolts from Thundurus-Incarnate and be able to hit back against threats with Thunderbolt of its own and Hidden Power Ice for pesky Salamences or any other Dragons/Grounds/Flyers such as Garchomp, Talonflame, or Landorus-Therian. It also serves as a soft check to Rain offense. Along with Shaymin-Sky and Azumarill.


Feel free to try the team out and see how it fares yourself. Change EVs if you like. All I ask is you keep the nicknames as they are as they be special to the Empress ^_^ <3


Also, feel free to ask me any questions you may have ;)


Oh, and proof of my reqs ^_^ User "Grand Empress", Obviously :P

I apologize for the poor quality.

Arcticblast edit: there were weird links so I removed them

 

[Shaka Brah]

my biggest problem w/facing salamence in doubles OU is that it's just a huge snowball of force and momentum thats nigh-impossible to stop after its ingrained on the field and begins boosting w/o sacking over half your team, and even that might not be possible if your opp. has that damned goggles jirachi paired up with mence, since it covers its weaknesses so perfectly and is really annoying to kill in and of itself; to walk away from that combo with your team being unscarred involves, imo, either inhuman levels of mindreading or a suitable two mons on the field at the exact moment they come in to shut down rachi and threaten mence reasonably. the fact that mence's bulk lets it tank tons of 2x SE hits and roost them off like they're nothing doesn't help, nor does the fact that even without time to set up DDs hes still blazing fast and can deliver aerilate-boosted stabs to KO a plethora of mons without having to worry about being picked off easily. i don't see the tier heading in a healthy direction if salamence is unbanned because of its influence on this game.

 

[VCrakeV]

Well, I have to make this post to get my reqs, despite that we've been beating a dead horse (which has already been said). Anyway, here goes:

First of all, let's look at those stats: 95/145/130/120/90/120

For what is usually used as a sweeper, Mega Salamence has respectable bulk. Combine his base defense with its pre-mega intimidate, and anything physical has no chance, even the likes of Weavile and Mamoswine. A base SpD of 90 is considerably well, even as the lowest stat. Even my modest Zapdos couldn't OHKO it with HP Ice (I’m not sure what its investment was, but I doubt it was specially defensive). Bulkiness isn't even what Mega Salamence excels at. With 145/120/120 offensive stats, this guy can sweep physically, specially, or mixed.

On that note, Salamence has a colorful movepool, especially with aerialate. It has access to Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Return, Heat Wave, Hyper Voice, Rock Slide, Roost, Draco Meteor, and more. Those stats with those moves is just ridiculous.


Now we can discuss how he works on the battlefield. Almost any physical attacker that is in before it mega evolves is essentially useless. It can use Protect to wait for its increased speed, while its partner sets tailwind, screens, or even goes for Icy Wind. This puts Mega Mence in a safe spot. It could also go for DD right of the bat, and have its partner use Follow Me (I'm looking at you Jirachi). This would only make it vulnerable to Sylveon's Hyper Voice, or Blizzard in a hailstorm, or with gravity in use (which is really centralizing). Even then, you’d need either two checks, trick room, or your own form of redirection to prevent your “check” from getting OHKO. If you don't have at least two members just for Mega Mence, then you'll have to sacrifice a few Pokémon just to get rid of that one Pokémon. That puts you at a huge disadvantage, and if Mega Mence is teamed with Mew, you'll have to deal with two of these monsters. That's game over.

I've managed to win a few times against the monster, but it was with hax and/or lucky prediction every time. I once burned it with heat wave, which meant I could sponge a hit and defeat the weakened 'mon. Another time, after my HP Ice wasn't enough, I swapped in my Rocky Helmet Garchomp, which took a Return and took away Mega Mence's remaining health.


So, in summary, you can use Mega Mence yourself, focus on countering him when team building, pray for hax, pull some lucky moves, or just run when you see him. Otherwise, you'll lose. Mega Salamence just puts too much pressure on the player, during teambuilding and play.

 

[shaian]

So after laddering extensively, and using Mega Salamence on various team builds, and with all kinds of different partners, my initial conclusion is that it's not healthy for the metagame. In the short time that it's been allowed in doubles (both during the initial suspect, and the current one) it's had a negative impact on the metagame as a whole, forcing teams to shape themselves towards stopping it through the use of multiple checks, many of which would be deemed fringe in the non-Mence metagame. And despite this trend, it's still able to easily dominate against teams that are prepared for it due to the ease in which it can be supported, and through its own capabilities. It's already been covered quite a bit but just the sheer ease of supporting Mence in the metagame, and during my ladder tests I've found this to hold up quite well, working excellently on HO, rain, sand, semi-room, defensive teams, etc.

One thing I did notice, and it's also been covered a bit in the thread, is that that Trick Room teams work excellently against Mence, as well as sand being more viable than before. The increased viability of full Trick Room is related to what I found to be one of the more enjoyable aspects of this test, which is Amoonguss (at least from observation) being used less, being less splashable than normal and when it was used it was more readily punished due to being setup fodder versus Mence and certain Mence checks. As for sand being better, this is largely due to Tyranitar and Excadrill both being amongst the better checks to Mega Mence, and of course, Mence reducing the viability of every Fighting-type due to simply existing.

As for Mence, it's fairly easy to tailor it towards whatever your team needs, and it will always work well. I've used most of the conventional ones, such as the Adamant / Jolly bulky Roost sets, the Sub sets, mixed, DD 2 attacks, as well as some of my own. My personal favourite is a physically defensive Impish set:

Salamence (M) @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Atk / 208 Def / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Double-Edge
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
- Roost

The general idea here was to crank up Mence's defense letting it setup on physical attackers which would be considered checks to it even without having to rely on the Intimidate drop, such as Stone Edge Lando-T, and Rhyperior, thus removing a lot of the mindgames that are involved in setting up Mence. The investment in defence lets it always live 2 +0 Adamant Kangaskhan Returns, and turns Lando-T's Rock Slide into a pitiful "possible 6hko" at -1. Meanwhile the investment in Atk and Spe lets it outrun Adamant Scarf Lando-T at +1 and always OHKO 4 HP Mega Kangaskhan at +1. If the opposing teams specially offensive checks to Salamence were gone and this thing got into the game my opponent almost always had to rely on either flinching, crit'ing, or burning Mence to even stand a chance because it could just setup on anything and close out the game.

As it stands right now, I think mega Salamence has proven itself to be far too powerful and far too difficult to properly counter without sacrificing the integrity of a team, and should be banned because of that. And on another note, there is still quite a bit of time left before the suspect period is over, so we should continue to test out and experiment with the Mence meta, and see how the metagame develops by the end of it before we claim anything as truly conclusive.

 

[finally]

hello, i want to talk about the pokemon mence has made more viable and less viable according to the viability rankings http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/new-doubles-ou-viability-rankings.3535930/
im rating this in a relative vacuum with salamence+jirachi as the main part of a salamence team

aegislash- gets better.
amoonguss- gets a lot worse.
char-y- gets worse. salamence resists and can set up
cresselia- gets better. ice beam, icy wind, and trick room
mega diancie- gets better
mega kanga- stagnate. people can not run mega kanga if they are running mega salamence (debuff), but teams become more kanga prone if they tech too hard to beat salamence (buff)
keldeo- gets worse
landorus-t- gets worse because it has to compete for the intimidate flying spot with salamence.
rotom-w- gets better slightly. sub mence is rising in popularity and makes rotom-w setup baity
shaymin-sky- gets slightly worse, air slash flinches only go so far

bisharp- gets better. as a salamence teammate to help beat tr. also can take advantage of enemy salamence intimidate
heatran- stagnate. sure it resists mence, but unless you are running wow or hp ice, youre not going to be doing too much back to it
hydreigon- gets worse. has to compete for the dragon slot and also gets smacked by faster salamence
jirachi- gets better as a salamence teammate and enemy salamence check
kyurem-b- gets worse. has to compete for the dragon slot. can beat salamence, but its a check, not a counter
latios- gets worse. has to compete for the dragon slot. cannot beat salamence intrinsically
mega metagross- gets better. resist mence and kill it
talonflame- slightly better. gale wings helps beat the growing hyper offencive metagame.
terrakion- stagnate (dosent intrinsically beat salamence, but still can do chip damage)
thundurus-i- gets better as a teammate for salamence to help beat rain and trick room and opposing jirachies (use taunt). also helps beat enemy salamence with twave and hp ice

rotom heat, suicune, darkrai, mamoswine, excadrill, weavile, genesect all get better. the rest of the viability rankings will have trouble with mence.

the reason why i posted this was to show that a lot of the metagame got worse because of mega mence. also wanted to show how mence restricts teambuilding. most of the things that get better run the risk of being too niche and making your team weak to other things like kanga, diancie, metagross, char-y. yup thats all. http://puu.sh/hUlm5/a07d735bf2.png

 

[Pastelle]

I believe we as the Doubles community, or any tier for that matter, have an overall objective; to create a fun, challenging metagame that is as fair and balanced as possible. Almost everything we do on the forums and on PS! is to get closer to achieving that goal. With that being said, I don't believe allowing Mega Salamence in the tier is helping us achieve that, but rather pushing us a step back. Its hard to formulate another argument as to why Mega Salamence should be banned, as nearly every logical point has been said already, both here and in the last suspect. There are going to be reiterated points, and I apologize. I think we're all struggling for new arguments at this point. Regardless, there are several reasons as to why I personally believe Mega Salamence should be banned.

Mega Salamence, to put it simply, is an absolute monster. It has almost every desirable trait you could possibly want out of a Pokemon; amazing Attack with great dual STAB, fantastic stats across the board (most notably Defense and Speed), and a myriad amount of spread and moveset options. Even that list is only scratching the surface of what makes Mega Salamence great. Its greatest though merit comes with the pure lack of support it requires to demolish teams. Simply bring redirection and a teammate to check a few of its typing weaknesses, and that's pretty much all you need. Jirachi + Salamence is an incredibly good core that is very hard to break. Once those two are on the field and begin to gain momentum, its almost impossible to stop unless you have very specific mons, or are willing to sack at least a third of your team to attempt to KO at least one of them.

I know all of these points have been beaten into the ground by now, but its undeniable that the impact that Salamence is having on the meta is insane. Its revolutionizing how teams are being constructed and played. Though it may be increasing the viability of certain play-styles like Trick Room or Sand, its greatly harming the viability of virtually everything else. A properly built Mega Salamence team can sack almost any other play-style. Salamence on its own destroys Rain, which has already been discussed. Charizard Y Sun teams can easily be stopped by sacking Char Y with a simple Rock Slide support mon like Landorus, then allowing Salamence to set up and destroy everything else. Opposing Trick Room can be stopped with basic Taunt support, and the list goes on and on.

Our goal as the DOU community is to create a fun, challenging, metagame that is as fair and balanced as possible. Mega Salamence is obviously not allowing this to happen. It's become the center of the entire tier, dominating how everyone builds and plays the game. Becoming focused on countering one two mon core personally takes the fun out of creative teambuilding and trying new ideas, and I can't be the only one who thinks so. This in turn takes away the fun challenge of a Pokemon match, and replaces it with a tedious challenge of trying to find a way to counter this thing. Mega Salamence is causing little good, and creating far more bad in the entire metagame.

If I see an amazing anti-ban post, perhaps my mind will be changed on the matter. But for now, I feel that Mega Salamence needs to stay banned.

 

[Bughouse]

mega diancie- gets better

just wanted to respond to this one, cuz not even really. Mence is faster and if it has Aqua Tail, EQ, or heck just Double Edge and a bit of chip beforehand (or if it already got +1), Diancie is dead.

Diancie is an exceptionally shaky Mence check.

 

[Joim]

After playing a bit again, I'm actually thinking about this. So, consider this: The main problem with MMence is redirection. Heck, it's Jirachi's redirection, because the things that pwn Megamence also pwn Amoon and kiss (strong Ice-attacks, hail+Blizzard).

So, consider this: Salamencite + Salamence + Jirachi complex ban.