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NP: Doubles OU Stage 2 - Monster | Mence is banned | Hoopa not Banned
- Thread starter Arcticblast
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This meta was my first time seriously playing Doubles; I don't feel Mence was any more overcentralizing than the rest of doubles, but I also don't think a centralized doubles is comparable to a centralized singles metagame.
I think Mence is clearly broken. That being said, I almost never felt like most Mence players on the ladder had any idea what they were doing, and teams often looked like Mence + Jirachi + 4 fillers with no synergy. And that's really where it became clear to me that Jirachi + Mence singlehandedly carries bad teams played by bad players. I often felt like I had to rely on luck to beat this core even when I had mons. And while I could usually prepare for the DD set, some weirder sets completely bodied me. I often felt like I needed my Sylveon and Jirachi to be completely healthy to have a chance at taking on this core, and I came into the meta prepared to counterteam it. I strongly considered running HP Ice on Zard-Y because I felt like Ancient Power (is this bad? I don't know) wasn't cutting it. I battled a lot of people who were using Blizzard and Icy Wind on all sorts of things where it just didn't seem appropriate, and I saw almost no flying-weak pokemon, which didn't seem right considering the viability rankings.
I also, notably, saw almost no Mega Diancie or Aegislash, not like they actually have an amazing matchup against Mence anyway but it surprised me because they both seemed to do sort of decently against the core relative to a lot of things I saw.
I think Mence is clearly broken. That being said, I almost never felt like most Mence players on the ladder had any idea what they were doing, and teams often looked like Mence + Jirachi + 4 fillers with no synergy. And that's really where it became clear to me that Jirachi + Mence singlehandedly carries bad teams played by bad players. I often felt like I had to rely on luck to beat this core even when I had mons. And while I could usually prepare for the DD set, some weirder sets completely bodied me. I often felt like I needed my Sylveon and Jirachi to be completely healthy to have a chance at taking on this core, and I came into the meta prepared to counterteam it. I strongly considered running HP Ice on Zard-Y because I felt like Ancient Power (is this bad? I don't know) wasn't cutting it. I battled a lot of people who were using Blizzard and Icy Wind on all sorts of things where it just didn't seem appropriate, and I saw almost no flying-weak pokemon, which didn't seem right considering the viability rankings.
I also, notably, saw almost no Mega Diancie or Aegislash, not like they actually have an amazing matchup against Mence anyway but it surprised me because they both seemed to do sort of decently against the core relative to a lot of things I saw.
Yeah the fact of the matter is that Mence is incredibly good at creating favorable matchups for itself and can use that momentum to set up fairly easily. If it switches in freely or relatively freely (neither of which are terribly difficult things to do; Intimidate and a whole bunch of resistances make Mence very bulky) then you either lose a Pokemon trying to prevent it from setting up OR you switch to your counter and then boom there's the turn Mence has to set up.
Also, the boosted calcs are used to show how easy it is for Mence to muscle past even its bulkier checks like Heatran / Rotom (though I already covered in my last post that neither can deal much damage back anyway). Mega Mence doesn't even need to boost to be able to outspeed and OHKO literally everything in the 101-110 Speed tier, which is literally an insane and unprecedented amount of Speed / power. And, as we've already covered, one of the best physical checks in the meta (Landorus-T) cant beat it one on one either.
And again, Thundurus checks literally anything not immune to Thunder Wave, so that argument is kind of moot. Using that logic, we could unban Mega Mewtwo Y because it's even easier to take down than Mega Salamence when it's paralyzed. That said, Thundurus isnt exactly the easiest Pokemon to just slap on any team, either.
Also, the boosted calcs are used to show how easy it is for Mence to muscle past even its bulkier checks like Heatran / Rotom (though I already covered in my last post that neither can deal much damage back anyway). Mega Mence doesn't even need to boost to be able to outspeed and OHKO literally everything in the 101-110 Speed tier, which is literally an insane and unprecedented amount of Speed / power. And, as we've already covered, one of the best physical checks in the meta (Landorus-T) cant beat it one on one either.
And again, Thundurus checks literally anything not immune to Thunder Wave, so that argument is kind of moot. Using that logic, we could unban Mega Mewtwo Y because it's even easier to take down than Mega Salamence when it's paralyzed. That said, Thundurus isnt exactly the easiest Pokemon to just slap on any team, either.
While I haven't made reqs yet, I figured I'd post some of my thoughts on Mega Salamence (I can't play at work but I have a ton of downtime). I'm not exactly sure how many of these arguments are just things other people have said, as I haven't been reading the thread too much (there's hardly any actual discussion from what I'm seeing, just people posting their thoughts). I'll take some time soon to read and respond to people's arguments.
I am not convinced that Mega Salamence is broken in a battle scenario. I acknowledge that Mence + Jirachi/Exca is a very powerful duo. However, as with any two-Pokémon combination in battle, it's not infallible. It isn't hard to force the opponent into a situation where one Pokémon of the two can't come in for fear of being crippled or KO'd, and even when the two are on the field together they can be checked. MenceRachi struggles to get past Thundurus and Aegislash and isn't a huge fan of opposing Heatran or Bisharp, while MenceDrill is threatened by Suicune, Rain, Icy Wind Keldeo, Ice Beam Cresselia, and Aegislash again (is there anything Aegislash can't do?) as well as a few other things depending on the Excadrill build and field conditions (Sand Rush Excadrill hates rain etc). Even without these and other specific checks, Mega Salamence suffers in battle from some of the same ailments as Mega Kangaskhan - it's usually a single-target physical attacker.* While it can subvert Intimidate and Will-o-Wisp with Substitute, this wears it down more quickly, and without Sub it is vulnerable to these and other debuffs (such as the oft mentioned speed control). Battle scenarios as a measure of brokenness are a bit different in Doubles anyway, where a wrong prediction can get your Excadrill smoked by a Heatran.
What I am much more concerned with is Mega Salamence's impact on teambuilding, namely how drastically it changes the status quo of what's viable and to what extent. While some Flying-weak Pokémon may be given a new niche (Conkeldurr and Breloom are almost better now to hit Excadrill with strong priority, and Keldeo is a great check to many more prominent Pokémon like Darkrai, Mamoswine, and Excadrill), many other Pokémon vulnerable to Mega Salamence such as Amoonguss and Shaymin-Sky are much worse off in the current metagame; without a way to meaningfully hit Mence hard without getting destroyed by Jirachi while also getting stomped on by a Return, it's very hard for them to function. Many former top Pokémon are experiencing harsh competition, including several Dragon-types and even Landorus-T (although forcing many Landorus-T to drop Rock Slide for Stone Edge might be a benefit). I unfortunately haven't had much time to build in this metagame and as a result haven't seen the full extent of Mega Mence's impact on teambuilding (outside of the ladder overpreparing for it at times).
I don't believe that "forcing you to run weird sets" is part of this teambuilding impact, however. Aside from random Blizzard and Icy Wind on everything (both of which are unnecessary overreactions in my opinion), many slight set changes are simply the result of what happens when a new threat is introduced into a metagame. We've seen max Speed Steel Wing Talonflame and HP Steel Mega Gengar pop up as a result of Mega Diancie's rise to prominence, and slower Pokémon often lurk around 176 Speed now to get the jump on Mega Metagross and Diancie under Tailwind. I'm not convinced that Hidden Power Ice on specific Pokémon (such as Aegislash, Jirachi, and to an extent Shaymin-Sky**) is a sign that Mega Salamence is broken, but rather certain Pokémon adjusting their sets to a new threat.
As it stands right now, I will be voting to unban Mega Salamence.
On a non-Mence related note, I apologize for my low activity as of late. I've been busy with full-time work and a night class, as well as a brief but intense foray into Battle Spot (I'll be back for you soon, Rotations ladder) and generally being tired always. Rest assured I haven't forgotten about my responsibilities as Doubles OU leader!
*Mixed sets are threatening as well with Double-Edge / Draco Meteor / filler and there's a few full special sets as well, but Dragon Dance is the most dangerous set to play against. Hyper Voice is garbdicks anyway lol does it even KO Keldeo
**Don't use HP Ice Skymin unless you can smack Heatran/Aegislash/Bisharp hard with multiple other teammates, it's not worth it otherwise
I am not convinced that Mega Salamence is broken in a battle scenario. I acknowledge that Mence + Jirachi/Exca is a very powerful duo. However, as with any two-Pokémon combination in battle, it's not infallible. It isn't hard to force the opponent into a situation where one Pokémon of the two can't come in for fear of being crippled or KO'd, and even when the two are on the field together they can be checked. MenceRachi struggles to get past Thundurus and Aegislash and isn't a huge fan of opposing Heatran or Bisharp, while MenceDrill is threatened by Suicune, Rain, Icy Wind Keldeo, Ice Beam Cresselia, and Aegislash again (is there anything Aegislash can't do?) as well as a few other things depending on the Excadrill build and field conditions (Sand Rush Excadrill hates rain etc). Even without these and other specific checks, Mega Salamence suffers in battle from some of the same ailments as Mega Kangaskhan - it's usually a single-target physical attacker.* While it can subvert Intimidate and Will-o-Wisp with Substitute, this wears it down more quickly, and without Sub it is vulnerable to these and other debuffs (such as the oft mentioned speed control). Battle scenarios as a measure of brokenness are a bit different in Doubles anyway, where a wrong prediction can get your Excadrill smoked by a Heatran.
What I am much more concerned with is Mega Salamence's impact on teambuilding, namely how drastically it changes the status quo of what's viable and to what extent. While some Flying-weak Pokémon may be given a new niche (Conkeldurr and Breloom are almost better now to hit Excadrill with strong priority, and Keldeo is a great check to many more prominent Pokémon like Darkrai, Mamoswine, and Excadrill), many other Pokémon vulnerable to Mega Salamence such as Amoonguss and Shaymin-Sky are much worse off in the current metagame; without a way to meaningfully hit Mence hard without getting destroyed by Jirachi while also getting stomped on by a Return, it's very hard for them to function. Many former top Pokémon are experiencing harsh competition, including several Dragon-types and even Landorus-T (although forcing many Landorus-T to drop Rock Slide for Stone Edge might be a benefit). I unfortunately haven't had much time to build in this metagame and as a result haven't seen the full extent of Mega Mence's impact on teambuilding (outside of the ladder overpreparing for it at times).
I don't believe that "forcing you to run weird sets" is part of this teambuilding impact, however. Aside from random Blizzard and Icy Wind on everything (both of which are unnecessary overreactions in my opinion), many slight set changes are simply the result of what happens when a new threat is introduced into a metagame. We've seen max Speed Steel Wing Talonflame and HP Steel Mega Gengar pop up as a result of Mega Diancie's rise to prominence, and slower Pokémon often lurk around 176 Speed now to get the jump on Mega Metagross and Diancie under Tailwind. I'm not convinced that Hidden Power Ice on specific Pokémon (such as Aegislash, Jirachi, and to an extent Shaymin-Sky**) is a sign that Mega Salamence is broken, but rather certain Pokémon adjusting their sets to a new threat.
As it stands right now, I will be voting to unban Mega Salamence.
On a non-Mence related note, I apologize for my low activity as of late. I've been busy with full-time work and a night class, as well as a brief but intense foray into Battle Spot (I'll be back for you soon, Rotations ladder) and generally being tired always. Rest assured I haven't forgotten about my responsibilities as Doubles OU leader!
*Mixed sets are threatening as well with Double-Edge / Draco Meteor / filler and there's a few full special sets as well, but Dragon Dance is the most dangerous set to play against. Hyper Voice is garbdicks anyway lol does it even KO Keldeo
**Don't use HP Ice Skymin unless you can smack Heatran/Aegislash/Bisharp hard with multiple other teammates, it's not worth it otherwise
I used the wrong word. My point still stands
Stratos
Banned deucer.
mence is busted
it has the raw power to ohko basically every offensive poke in the tier. 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 331-391 (100.3 - 118.4%). And it has base 120 speed. This on its own would not necessarily make it super broken, but what pushes it over the edge is that you absolutely cannot afford to give it a free turn. The only other Pokemon which can make so much out of a single free turn is Azumarill, but Azu has...tons of flaws, and Mence has none.
I said in the last suspect that I thought Mence was handleable in actual battles, and I still think that's true. However, I realized that "handling" mence in actual battles, since it can ohko everything and giving it a free turn is so devastating, is basically just threatening to cripple it with a mon that it can ohko if it chooses to set up instead of ohko your mon, and then having your mence revenge killer in the back to force it out if it does go for the ohko. Bringing in your mence counter gives you momentum for a short time, which you use in order to make holes in your opponent's team; once the mence gets an opportunity to come in again (which it will, because it has fantastic resistances) then you're back to playing free OHKO chicken. These matches can be interesting on occasion when someone has a weakness to a threat which the opponent happened to bring, but the fact that mence forces this in basically every match is pretty clear proof to me that it's broken.
Notice i didn't even say a word about rachi because even though they're a great core mence is still broken without rachi, all rachi does is turn a lot of mence's "easy ohko but not setup bait" and "check" pokemon into setup bait
it has the raw power to ohko basically every offensive poke in the tier. 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 331-391 (100.3 - 118.4%). And it has base 120 speed. This on its own would not necessarily make it super broken, but what pushes it over the edge is that you absolutely cannot afford to give it a free turn. The only other Pokemon which can make so much out of a single free turn is Azumarill, but Azu has...tons of flaws, and Mence has none.
I said in the last suspect that I thought Mence was handleable in actual battles, and I still think that's true. However, I realized that "handling" mence in actual battles, since it can ohko everything and giving it a free turn is so devastating, is basically just threatening to cripple it with a mon that it can ohko if it chooses to set up instead of ohko your mon, and then having your mence revenge killer in the back to force it out if it does go for the ohko. Bringing in your mence counter gives you momentum for a short time, which you use in order to make holes in your opponent's team; once the mence gets an opportunity to come in again (which it will, because it has fantastic resistances) then you're back to playing free OHKO chicken. These matches can be interesting on occasion when someone has a weakness to a threat which the opponent happened to bring, but the fact that mence forces this in basically every match is pretty clear proof to me that it's broken.
Notice i didn't even say a word about rachi because even though they're a great core mence is still broken without rachi, all rachi does is turn a lot of mence's "easy ohko but not setup bait" and "check" pokemon into setup bait
I used an offensive team that centered around m-mence and the only redirector was amoong. Needless to say, my stance has remain largely unchanged since the last suspect test and i still think that it should stay banned.
Mence is naturally extremely overcentralizing. It has been mentioned to death that the mencerachi core is extremely effective and thanks to rachi's well designed typing and mence's strong firepower, the duo is actually pretty hard to break. You need, at the very least, 2 mons just to beat that core and this is disregarding the fact that your opponent probably has 2-3 mons at the back ready to answer your answer to the core. When I used the team against teams that had little to no answer (e.g having 1 check/counter and 1 loose check) to mence, it was really simple to set up win conditions as all you needed to do is to either break the counters (most of them lacked reliable recovery) and then drop your redirector in and start the game going. Whenever i played against an opponent with a mence, it all came down to who best played their mence and that is just not the best way a metagame should be heading.
Mence's offensive stat is threatening but when you compare it to things that share similarities to it, for example, m-pinsir has the same "-ate" ability as mence and even has a higher base atk and priority to boot, it is not immediately obvious why mence is much more overwhelming and powerful than something like say m-pinsir or even m-altaria. but when we look at it's base 95 HP and base 130 defense and coupled with the infamous ability intimidate, that is what pushes it beyond the line. It has so much bulk to fall back on to the point where it can even act as a strong defensive threat if it fits your team. Most of the time, one DD is all you need to be able to break down teams so that other mons can clean up or for Mence to just win from there.
Mence also has very few legit counters. What steel types are there really that can do something to deal with the common cores that mence is paired up with? Heatran can't retaliate unless you're running HP ice and even then, mence can carry Earthquake to deal with it. Things like Aegi boils down to mind games and even Gross can be dealt with by redirection.
tldr - fuck mence
Mence is naturally extremely overcentralizing. It has been mentioned to death that the mencerachi core is extremely effective and thanks to rachi's well designed typing and mence's strong firepower, the duo is actually pretty hard to break. You need, at the very least, 2 mons just to beat that core and this is disregarding the fact that your opponent probably has 2-3 mons at the back ready to answer your answer to the core. When I used the team against teams that had little to no answer (e.g having 1 check/counter and 1 loose check) to mence, it was really simple to set up win conditions as all you needed to do is to either break the counters (most of them lacked reliable recovery) and then drop your redirector in and start the game going. Whenever i played against an opponent with a mence, it all came down to who best played their mence and that is just not the best way a metagame should be heading.
Mence's offensive stat is threatening but when you compare it to things that share similarities to it, for example, m-pinsir has the same "-ate" ability as mence and even has a higher base atk and priority to boot, it is not immediately obvious why mence is much more overwhelming and powerful than something like say m-pinsir or even m-altaria. but when we look at it's base 95 HP and base 130 defense and coupled with the infamous ability intimidate, that is what pushes it beyond the line. It has so much bulk to fall back on to the point where it can even act as a strong defensive threat if it fits your team. Most of the time, one DD is all you need to be able to break down teams so that other mons can clean up or for Mence to just win from there.
Mence also has very few legit counters. What steel types are there really that can do something to deal with the common cores that mence is paired up with? Heatran can't retaliate unless you're running HP ice and even then, mence can carry Earthquake to deal with it. Things like Aegi boils down to mind games and even Gross can be dealt with by redirection.
tldr - fuck mence
I'm not really sure what to say; I got reqs a little late and most things I saw have already been posted, but here goes.
Thundurus' T-Wave is a cripple for Mega-Salamence; I ran [Substitute, DD, frustration, tect] Sala and that worked pretty well. Trick Room seems to be a problem for Mega-Salamence if you're not prepared, though Sala can do chunks of damage to the setter before it goes up. Heatran seems to be good against Sala (I've run ancient power Tran), unless Sala has Earthquake (which I've frequently seen). Huh. Oh. Aegislash was a definite problem. Rain was a huge stopper to Mega Salamence if it didnt DD yet; Jirachi on the opponent's side was also a problem. I liked Mega Salamence for dealing with Amoonguss, and even Mega Kangashkan at times (sort of). Mega-Salamence doesn't seem to be overcentralizing the meta, but it's a threat to watch out for!
EDIT: Rereading my post a couple days afterword, I realized that I sound like I'm talking about singles haha. 1v1 the above Pokemon are either troublesome, no problem, or a threat to Mega Salamence, respectively to how I described them. I would like to add, in order to sound remotely intelligent, that how you teambuild and who you pair Mega Salamence with (in battle), can largely eliminate the threats to Mega Salamence. In my opinion, having Mega Kanga and Mega Salamence in the same meta seems like too much. Dealing with Mega Kangaskhan is already a large problem. However, that may not be the case at higher levels of play for the DoublesOU/Smogon Doubles meta.
Overall, this is pretty interesting for my first experience with Suspect Testing. :]
Thundurus' T-Wave is a cripple for Mega-Salamence; I ran [Substitute, DD, frustration, tect] Sala and that worked pretty well. Trick Room seems to be a problem for Mega-Salamence if you're not prepared, though Sala can do chunks of damage to the setter before it goes up. Heatran seems to be good against Sala (I've run ancient power Tran), unless Sala has Earthquake (which I've frequently seen). Huh. Oh. Aegislash was a definite problem. Rain was a huge stopper to Mega Salamence if it didnt DD yet; Jirachi on the opponent's side was also a problem. I liked Mega Salamence for dealing with Amoonguss, and even Mega Kangashkan at times (sort of). Mega-Salamence doesn't seem to be overcentralizing the meta, but it's a threat to watch out for!
EDIT: Rereading my post a couple days afterword, I realized that I sound like I'm talking about singles haha. 1v1 the above Pokemon are either troublesome, no problem, or a threat to Mega Salamence, respectively to how I described them. I would like to add, in order to sound remotely intelligent, that how you teambuild and who you pair Mega Salamence with (in battle), can largely eliminate the threats to Mega Salamence. In my opinion, having Mega Kanga and Mega Salamence in the same meta seems like too much. Dealing with Mega Kangaskhan is already a large problem. However, that may not be the case at higher levels of play for the DoublesOU/Smogon Doubles meta.
Overall, this is pretty interesting for my first experience with Suspect Testing. :]
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scene
Banned deucer.
I don't think mega mence should be unbanned. For a start, it's super bulky on the physical side, especially combined with Intimidate, giving ample opportunities to switch in when you also take into account its myriad resistances by virtue of its typing. Nor is the thing paper on the special side (95/90), so there's plenty of scope for soaking up a hit. And that's something you really, really don't want to let mence do, because its offensive capabilities are absurd. Good calcs have been posted earlier in the thread (Lando-T, +1 on M-Diancie etc), but suffice to say if it's not a defensively inclined mon it's just dead in a single turn to an aerilate double-edge or return. That's not even mentioning the setup capabilities it has, either using its aforementioned defensive stats or its terrific synergy with bulky steel-types. A big movepool means there's always the option to carry a move (fire blast, eq, aqua tail) to eliminate a common switchin. Mega Salamence has too much going for it to be in DOU currently, dealing with so many threats and having so much impact with so few downsides.
i think Mega-Salamance is not ban worthy. To me it is on the same "level" as Mega-Kangaskhan as an offensive threat. Mega-Salamance has a very common attacking weaknesses. if you allow the dragon dance ones to set up then yes you have a problem, but that is the same as any sweeper. who wants to face a +2 anything? so far running my own Salamance team the biggest counter/check as a team that i have found is is trick room, it has the bulk and attacking power to defeat Salamance and other speedy offensive threats.
Pastelle
we're all star stuff
Mega Salamence has better overall stats than Kang, only falling slightly short in Special Defense and HP. It is far faster and hits much harder than Mega Kangaskhan, thus making it a more feared offensive threat.
Just because it has weaknesses to common attacking moves doesn't mean its not powerful. These weaknesses, specifically those to Ice, Electric, and Rock, are easily stopped by simple team support, as well as redirection. Also it doesn't matter what its weak to if its fast enough to KO almost anything anyways.
What distinguishes Mence from other setup sweepers is how little setup it actually needs. Even at +1, it can be enough to sweep through entire teams. And considering how easy it is to setup at least once, either it be from a free turn or from redirection, this is defiantly an issue. The only other setup sweeper I can think of that has comparable power to Mence is Azumarill, and Azumarill has dozens of obvious flaws. It's Mence's fantastic natural bulk, attacking force, and general ease of setting that makes it broken as a setup sweeper. Also Mence at +1 is basically any other sweeper at +2.
Trick Room is halted by simply running a fast Taunt user alongside Mence, or Fake Outting the setter, having Mence DDance that turn, then KO'ing it before it even has the chance to set. Unless you're using Mental Herb Cresselia as a setter, in my opinion Trick Room isn't a reliable Mence check.
Don't take this as a personal attack on your logic, I just wanted to use your post to make a few more points about Mega Salamence
tldr- mence is still broken wow breaking news
Ok so my thoughts on Mega Salamence.
It's not really broken by itself but it's very easy to break the game with. The mence team I posted above was the one I found the most consistency in, but I did build others with Mence. In all of them, Mega Mence was ALWAYS a very SOLID win con, it could just come in chunk something eat up a hit and come out, or if I had the chance just DD, spam Return and then Roost when possible. If given proper support mence can be an unstopable force.
just ban it the meta was fine without it anyway (even though I started playing like one week pre mence suspect ladder came up)
It's not really broken by itself but it's very easy to break the game with. The mence team I posted above was the one I found the most consistency in, but I did build others with Mence. In all of them, Mega Mence was ALWAYS a very SOLID win con, it could just come in chunk something eat up a hit and come out, or if I had the chance just DD, spam Return and then Roost when possible. If given proper support mence can be an unstopable force.
- It has stupid bulk backed by intimidate pre-mega, so you can choose when to mega to preserve intimidate which makes some good mind games.
- It hits stupidly hard, nothing can really switch in on him without getting chunked besides steels.
- If you leave a single opportunity for mence to setup the game just might be over.
- Most intimidate users can't really touch mence if intimidated aswell
- Mence + Jirachi is just stupid lol
- edit: Mega Salamence restritcs teambuilding by a ton, since you have to keep him in constant check while not being weak to other things such as kanga and diancie.
just ban it the meta was fine without it anyway (even though I started playing like one week pre mence suspect ladder came up)
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even though pastelgameboy alr addressed most of the issues i just want to add a bit onto what he said.
here's the first problem. it can not only be an offensive threat but because it has an insane level of bulk, a phletora of useful resistance (ground immunity and fire resist are some useful ones to mention) and it has a rly good pre mega ability in intimidate. it also has a rly powerful speed boosting move as well as a reliable recovery move (if you opt for it) which are things that kang lacked. kang does have priority but overall mence is on a level that is much higher than that of kanga.
stab rock slide doesn't kill if you have bulk investment and with intimidate factored in. random blizzards and icy wind are becoming more common on random things mainly because of mence (with the latter being more common simply because of it's speed dropping utility). dragon stab is usually forgone and running random dragon pulse on mons like zard y is a pretty strong indication that mence has to constantly be checked.
unfortunately in doubles, it's not as easy as we hope it would be simply because of existence of redirectors. rachi, kiss, amoong are some of those random redirectors i can think of off the top of my head and those work rly well with mence. all mence needs is just one turn. one turn of slip up and you may end up losing the game. is that the metagame we want for DOU? this is different from other sweepers because other sweepers have cons that allow them to be exploited. mmence's cons are not as easily exploitable compared to other sweepers (like m-diancie and m-gross)
it doesn't even need to reach +2 to shit on you unfortunately.
trick room and hail as an archetype are definitely good ways to deal with mence teams, however, that does not mean that mence has any qualities that make it less broken than it is at the moment. if you need to tell yourself "hey if i dont run tr/hail, i'll have to pack 2 or more checks for mmence or else i would have a good chance of getting broken down by mmence", then it might be a strong indication that mmence is extremely overcentralizing and should stay banned.
You've already been quoted multiple times, so I'll just put the problem with your post here
"To me it is on the same "level" as Mega-Kangaskhan as an offensive threat."
Ok I'm actually not entirely sure how much power I have to redirect this thread, but I seriously can't be the only one getting annoyed about the comparisons to Mega Kangaskhan. I realise I shouldn't have counter argued the first guy saying this, but let me explain why this logic doesn't apply.
Comparing this thing to Mega Kangaskhan is useless, because the fact that Kangaskhan is almost as threatening does not mean mence isn't broken; means that having both unbanned breaks the metagame. Everything has to be super fast and has to be able to kill both of the two dominant setup megas as well as KO all the viable FM / RP users, as these will almost surely be used alongside kanga/mence. Salamence's presence in the metagame makes it so Kangaskhan is harder to deal with overall, as you can't focus two mons on Kanga-checking anymore (that would either ruin your team synergy or make you super weak to mence).
In my eyes, the two simply cannot co-exist in a desirable metagame, which is what we are trying to create, council and voters alike. Mence would almost certainly not be broken if Kangaskhan didn't exist, and Kangaskhan is not broken without mence in the metagame; this can be seen by two full suspect tests of the mon. The fact that they may be equally broken does not and should not mean that we have to either ban both or keep both; keeping both breaks the metagame into an offensive frenzy, and will narrow down teambuilding (denying this is wrong, everyone playing on the ladder legit has more than 3 things that specifically deal with mence) to much less than it is now. Banning both goes against past Kangaskhan suspect tests, and if you believe that both mons ARE broken, you can push for a third Kanga suspect and watch it not get banned once again.
"To me it is on the same "level" as Mega-Kangaskhan as an offensive threat."
Ok I'm actually not entirely sure how much power I have to redirect this thread, but I seriously can't be the only one getting annoyed about the comparisons to Mega Kangaskhan. I realise I shouldn't have counter argued the first guy saying this, but let me explain why this logic doesn't apply.
Comparing this thing to Mega Kangaskhan is useless, because the fact that Kangaskhan is almost as threatening does not mean mence isn't broken; means that having both unbanned breaks the metagame. Everything has to be super fast and has to be able to kill both of the two dominant setup megas as well as KO all the viable FM / RP users, as these will almost surely be used alongside kanga/mence. Salamence's presence in the metagame makes it so Kangaskhan is harder to deal with overall, as you can't focus two mons on Kanga-checking anymore (that would either ruin your team synergy or make you super weak to mence).
In my eyes, the two simply cannot co-exist in a desirable metagame, which is what we are trying to create, council and voters alike. Mence would almost certainly not be broken if Kangaskhan didn't exist, and Kangaskhan is not broken without mence in the metagame; this can be seen by two full suspect tests of the mon. The fact that they may be equally broken does not and should not mean that we have to either ban both or keep both; keeping both breaks the metagame into an offensive frenzy, and will narrow down teambuilding (denying this is wrong, everyone playing on the ladder legit has more than 3 things that specifically deal with mence) to much less than it is now. Banning both goes against past Kangaskhan suspect tests, and if you believe that both mons ARE broken, you can push for a third Kanga suspect and watch it not get banned once again.
#suspectKang
the point of the comparison of kang/mence is to show that arguments that apply to #banmence also apply to kang, which currently stands unbanned.
"One cannot live while the other survives" is a horrible way to justify banning mence and keeping kang, they aren't the same mon, they're not just repainted versions of each other with different resists.
Those aren't legitimate "counters" to tr. Any tr team will have easy answers or prepared answers to taunt, fake out, etc.
You can't just say "taunt the setter"...
What i was trying to say as that they where on the same level is that they both are strong offensive threats that fall under low risk/high reward. Why wouldn't anyone want to use either one of these megas, unless you are running something like trick room. With Salamance being used and people running majority of there team to check/counter it, it leaves their team weak to Mega-Kangaskhan.
looks like we're at the stage where even the tier leader just skims the longer-than-a-line posts...
to sum up what i meant, mence requires more countering than kanga per team, and it restricts teambuilding to have both in the metagame at once, as very few team builds accomplish dealing with both and keeping synergy. That post was nothing even close to a comparison, which it seems to me you read it as.
to sum up what i meant, mence requires more countering than kanga per team, and it restricts teambuilding to have both in the metagame at once, as very few team builds accomplish dealing with both and keeping synergy. That post was nothing even close to a comparison, which it seems to me you read it as.
Unban
I don't find M-Mence that particularly threatening. It is strong, but it is a mega :S after all.
For me, I've been able to manage M-Mence with the utilization of:
For me, the whole thing with M-Mence + Redirector is that you also have a teammate of your own...
I don't find M-Mence that particularly threatening. It is strong, but it is a mega :S after all.
For me, I've been able to manage M-Mence with the utilization of:
- Stuffs that tear it apart: Sylveon's Hyper Voice, Conk's Ice Punch, Anything's Ice Beam, etc.
- Stuffs that can manfight: (M)Tyranitar, (M)Diancie, Azumarill etc.
- Speed Control: T-Wave, Icy Wind, Rain, TrickRoom, Fake out etc.
- Other random craps: Focus sash, Rotom-W, M-Aggron, protect, Will-o-wisp, transform, wide guard (for spa), redirection etc.
For me, the whole thing with M-Mence + Redirector is that you also have a teammate of your own...
I guess someone like this guy getting ladder reqs is inevitable. Glad posting reqs exist.
In order to perhaps sway your vote, if you get a vote at all, a ton of your points are flawed. For one, mence hits sylveon for ridiculous damage, and conk is bad, can't ohko mence, and also can't take a hit. Even your supposed "counters" get beaten by rachi or are setup bait for mence after an intimidate. Sash and protect aren't really counters to mence. You could say that mewtwo gets countered by sash and protect in the same way, but he's not getting freed anytime soon.
Also, you make it seem like you have to save two or three mons in your roster just to stop a mence sweep. I'm sure you can see how restrictive to teambuilding and gameplay mence is if you have to sack three mons to stop a sweep.
mence doesnt OHKO sylveon, sylveon OHKO mence
some conk build can OHKO @-1, other req little prior damage
I guess youre the type of people who just sends them out right off the bait... use your brain man
who even said countering...i said you can fight
who said sack...you should know which of your poke are important from the enemy's team preview
and its not that restrictive if you use some thought
I like you btw :)
"Also, you make it seem like you have to save two or three mons in your roster just to stop a mence sweep"
^ LOLLLLLLL
and i do have a vote
some conk build can OHKO @-1, other req little prior damage
I guess youre the type of people who just sends them out right off the bait... use your brain man
who even said countering...i said you can fight
who said sack...you should know which of your poke are important from the enemy's team preview
and its not that restrictive if you use some thought
I like you btw :)
"Also, you make it seem like you have to save two or three mons in your roster just to stop a mence sweep"
^ LOLLLLLLL
and i do have a vote
It's time I start posting. Now, first off saying that "it is strong, but it is a mega after all" means close to nothing. Yes it is a mega, but a very powerful one... you say that yourself. But how does that make it any less threatening? It doesn't; despite taking up your mega slot, (which isn't a problem considering what it does) it gets the job of depleting your opponents mons done very well, and it does that even better with redirection from Jirachi.
Second of all, it can ohko a fair few things unboosted, it's just that a lot of what you will see may be built to take a few hits. Contrary to that last statement, though, many of what it cannot ohko is either 2hko'ed, or, occasionally, 3hko'oed. Now let's not forget that most of the time these mons are unable to get the kill on Mmence before it gets the kill on them.
Finally, I would like to talk about your "other random craps". For one, MAggron is not to good, and even if it can handle Mence, people won't use it. If they do, the player with mence will just send out a counter to the MAggron. Another thing is that wide guard in the case of hyper voice will not be much considering the rarity of special or mixed MMence and that even if you wide guard, your ally may not be able to finish Mence depending on Mence's HP. It is true that wide guard could he used against EQ Mence, but when people have access to Rachi+Mence (chances are majority of Mence teams on ladder will be this), EQ will likely not be that prominent as the standard Mence for that core, for give me if I'm wrong, is Return, DD, Roost, Tect. I suppose EQ could often be in place of Roost, but my point still stands. And Paint is right, you do make it seem as if you have to bring at least 2 to 3 counters on your team, which even though it may not be that dramatic, it is over centralizing in the fact that most people likely will just to be safe from Mence + Rachi.
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252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 56 HP / 200 Def Sylveon: 282-333 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^that's not even counting Helping Hand boost/chip damage from Salamence's partner/Double Edge
-1 152+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 228-272 (68.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The only build that OHKOs 4 HP Mence at -1 is Life Orb Sheer Force and even then, Mence outspeeds OHKOs with Return
Not sure what that even means so I'm just gonna respond with what I think it means. So what I got from it is to just let Mence set up and then send out the supposed counters? Or are you saying that you need to bring in those supposed counters safely. If latter, that's p much saying you're sacking a mon to send in a counter for mence
lots of things can "fight" mence but the problem is, can they beat it
sounds like that to me
Not trying to bash on you or anything, just trying to change your opinion. It'd also be nice if you had more backup evidence on why Mence should be unbanned instead of saying vague things like "it's not that restrictive if you use some thought."
Pastelle
we're all star stuff
You're not necessarily guaranteed a vote by making reqs and posting. This is pulled directly from the original post (I can't properly quote it cause I'm on mobile)
"These reqs are subjective, meaning that the leadership can decide that you didn't meet them, even if you posted, if your posts aren't up to par. That means your post needs to make legitimate points (no "it's not broken if you can use it too") and show good metagame knowledge."
Just thought I should bring to your attention that unless you can make a detailed, accurate no-ban post that shows that you have knowledge of the meta game, you most likely won't be able to vote.
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