np: LC - Blackbird, now with Voting!

[Zephyr]

Is voting rights based solely on paragraphs?

Unfortunately seems that way.

 

[Moo]

I probably should've put more effort into my paragraphs then >_<

 

[sax king]

I probably should've put more effort into my paragraphs then >_<

This. But at least I got a chance at voting, because I didn't have time to ladder this time.

 

[Dubulous]

More discussion about the suspects themselves instead of the process, please.

 

[Moo]

Voted Meditite to stay and Murkrow to go.

Meditite has solid counters such as Slowpoke (and ghost pokemon with a little prediction) whereas Murkrow's counters aren't always reliable.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Haven't sent in my paragraphs yet, but I agree. There is no solid check to Murkrow.

 

[SkyNet]

Haven't sent in my paragraphs yet, but I agree. There is no solid check to Murkrow.

There are solid counters to Murkrow depending on the set it is running, the problem with Krow it can run sets that can destroy the others counters and check, so if you make the wrong discussion you can easily lose a poke.

Krow is still perfectly manageable imo but it is healthy for the metagame?

 

[smashlloyd20]

There are solid counters to Murkrow depending on the set it is running, the problem with Krow it can run sets that can destroy the others counters and check, so if you make the wrong discussion you can easily lose a poke.

Krow is still perfectly manageable imo but it is healthy for the metagame?

Exactly what I mean. Its sets may have checks, but as a Pokemon it has no one good check.

 

[SkyNet]

Exactly what I mean. Its sets may have checks, but as a Pokemon it has no one good check.

You can use that argument with any pokemon to a point, for example I could put HP Fire on a Carvannha now I have a means of taking down Ferroseed one of its main counters.

I could put T-punch on Meditite now I can take down Slowpoke. A lot of pokes can interchange moves to take out different checks.

 

[sax king]

Murkrow is just too hard to take out.

Meditite on the other hand really isn't that bad. He's slow and has to rely on wall-breaking to be useful in my opinion. He is revenge killed by anything faster than it and strong (flying and ghost moves aren't that hard to get people). In addition, stong pysically defensive pokemon that resist its STABs can do pretty well against it. Slowpoke can do well, and for those of you who like Thunderpunch, you can be walled by Riguree (believe it or not, Riguree is really good and is almost a perfect Meditite counter). Meditite is a good wall-breaker, but its too slow, too vulnerable, and isn't over-the-top great.

 

[kokoloko]

You can use that argument with any pokemon to a point, for example I could put HP Fire on a Carvannha now I have a means of taking down Ferroseed one of its main counters.

I could put T-punch on Meditite now I can take down Slowpoke. A lot of pokes can interchange moves to take out different checks.

The thing is, HP Fire Carvanha and ThunderPunch Meditite barely 2HKO their intended targets, meaning I can switch back out and save my pokemon for later after taking that first unexpected hit. Murkrow on the other hand, pretty much always OHKO's its targets with its "coverage" move of choice. HP Ice always OHKOs Gligar (unless its SpD Gligar, which still cant hurt Krow), while Heat Wave always OHKOs Komatana and Ferroseed. This means you literally have to guess which coverage move it has, or you will lose a pokemon. Its not like you can scout out its coverage moves, since taking any of its hits once is already hard enough...

 

[Elevator Music]

This is my current stance on Krow:

MixKrow is incredibly powerful and can OHKO or 2HKO most of the metagame (note: By MixKrow I'm assuming a set of Brave Bird/Heat Wave/Sucker Punch/Hidden Power Ice with Life Orb). There are many Pokemon who are badly hurt by practically any combination of moves (ie: Bring in Lickitung on Heat Wave and you still are gonna get pummeled by Brave Bird), which makes playing around it even more difficult.

The easiest way to play around Krow is to take advantage of it's short lifespan. Brave Bird is a move that it really needs to use against most of the Pokemon in the tier (Zuruggu, Dokkora, Pururiru, Munchlax, et cetera), and combined with Life Orb recoil, Stealth Rock damage, and a vulnerability to status and weather, Murkrow is usually only getting one or two kills a match at most. Pokemon like Meditite can spam Fake Out against it to wear it down even further, then switch out to have something take the Brave Bird, and Murkrow should either be dead or in revenge kill range. Pururiru can come in on anything but Brave Bird and Will-O-Wisp it, making it a ton easier to beat. Slowpoke hard counters it. Misdreavus can play mindgames with Thunderbolt/Will-o-Wisp (although iirc it's OHKOed by Brave Bird?). FeatherDance variants of Murkrow can stall it out.

Even if Murkrow does get a kill, that's just about all it's getting. You can then bring in a Pokemon at full HP, or at the very least enough to beat Murkrow. The list of things it OHKOes is much smaller than the list of things it 2HKOes. Furthermore, while Murkrow does have a very powerful Sucker Punch, it won't OHKO all faster Pokemon with it, so just running a Scarfed mon that can hurt it (Kojofuu, maybe some Snover, etc) will generally keep it from doing too much damage. Forcing Murkrow out isn't exactly beating it, but because it has so little survivability, it's at the very least halfway there.

"But this isn't the only Murkrow wah wahhh!"

While diversity is so important to Murkrow on paper, is the set that you should assume when you first see Murkrow. Period. No other Murkrow set poses as much of an immediate threat as MixKrow. CM FeatherDance is still solidly beaten by Gligar and Komatana (and others). More defensive versions of Krow shouldn't even be relevant in this discussion so that's all I'm going to say on that.

tl;dr-- Murkrow is a very powerful Pokemon that can kill almost any Pokemon in Little Cup, but dies very quickly itself. I'm not sure if this is too hard to play around or not. That opinion will probably differ from person to person so whatever.

 

[Darkamber8828]

The thing is, HP Fire Carvanha and ThunderPunch Meditite barely 2HKO their intended targets, meaning I can switch back out and save my pokemon for later after taking that first unexpected hit. Murkrow on the other hand, pretty much always OHKO's its targets with its "coverage" move of choice. HP Ice always OHKOs Gligar (unless its SpD Gligar, which still cant hurt Krow), while Heat Wave always OHKOs Komatana and Ferroseed. This means you literally have to guess which coverage move it has, or you will lose a pokemon. Its not like you can scout out its coverage moves, since taking any of its hits once is already hard enough...

Playing devil's advocate, you can double-switch.

Or use Protect.

This doesn't work out so well when they forgo Roost or Substitute, like EM said...and run both.

 

[Al_Alchemist]

Meditite has solid counters such as Slowpoke (and ghost pokemon with a little prediction) whereas Murkrow's counters aren't always reliable.

With Evolution Stone:
28 Atk vs 25 Def & 28 HP (75 Base Power): 12 - 16 (42.86% - 57.14%) - Average of 50.00%

Not exactly solid in my opinion, predict wrong, get a ThunderPunch to the face, and it isn't hard to predict a Slowpoke switch in at all. After that hit, the ball is in Meditite's court as to whether you switch to something else, predicting another ThunderPunch, or stay in to recover, expecting a Drain Punch or something. If Slowpoke does anything except Recover, it will be 2HKOd. Sure it has Regeneration, but your other Pokemon do not.

Meditite on the other hand really isn't that bad. He's slow and has to rely on wall-breaking to be useful in my opinion. He is revenge killed by anything faster than it and strong (flying and ghost moves aren't that hard to get people). In addition, stong pysically defensive pokemon that resist its STABs can do pretty well against it. Slowpoke can do well, and for those of you who like Thunderpunch, you can be walled by Riguree (believe it or not, Riguree is really good and is almost a perfect Meditite counter). Meditite is a good wall-breaker, but its too slow, too vulnerable, and isn't over-the-top great.

Meditite isn't as frail as you're making him out to be, it usually only is OHKOd by Murkrow and Misdreavus, one of whom a suspect themselves. For example, a Scarf Chinchou or Snover's Hydro Pump or Blizzard respectively, only does:

15 Atk vs 18 Def & 21 HP (120 Base Power): 12 - 15 (57.14% - 71.43%)

While Meditite will OHKO them both back with Drain Punch (or with Bullet Punch after that, if they're some odd super Bulky version), which puts Meditite's HP back slightly above 70% eager to destroy another Pokemon.

Things like Murkrow take this much from a Bullet Punch, assuming they have neutral nature Defense and 0 HP / 0 Def EVs and no Evolution Stone:
28 Atk vs 10 Def & 22 HP (40 Base Power): 8 - 10 (36.36% - 45.45%)

So basically after they Brave Bird something, they're dead. Misdreavus on the other hand, only has a chance being OHKOd with Zen Headbutt, when it doesn't have an Evolution Stone:
28 Atk vs 12 Def & 22 HP (80 Base Power): 19 - 24 (86.36% - 109.09%)

However, with an Evolution Stone (and sometimes Oran assuming it doesn't get High Damage Rolled) it nearly dodges the 2HKO from Zen Headbutt and Bullet Punch. Any prior damage will take it down though, and with Pokemon like Munchlax around and no recovery, Misdreavus would likely only be able to switch into Meditite once.

Elgym really is the only Hard Counter atm (or other obscure things such as Shelmet, which are hard to fit on a team), although it isn't exactly easily slipped into a team. In terms of walling, it is a far worse Slowpoke in just about every other situation, except for stopping Meditite. But even then, Meditite with a Life Orb and Return, although very rare, can always 2HKO it with Stealth Rock, even if it has a +Def Nature 252 HP / 252 Def EVs. So if Elgym ever does rise in popularity (I have only ever seen it once before in Gen 5 LC), Meditite can still take on its arguably best counter.

Here's some calcs:

Meditite (M) @ Evolution Stone / Life Orb
Trait: Pure Power
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd
or 196 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spd (with Life Orb)
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Drain Punch
- ThunderPunch
- Ice Punch / Zen Headbutt / Return
- Bullet Punch

Vs.

Elgym (Riguree) (M) @ Evolution Stone
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 236 HP / 236 Def / 36 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
(I don't know about the set, really only thing I could think of for an anti-Meditite set, but still being useful for other things.)

With Evolution Stone:
28 Atk vs 24 Def & 25 HP (75 Base Power): 7 - 9 (28.00% - 36.00%)

28 Atk vs 24 Def & 25 HP (102 Base Power): 9 - 11 (36.00% - 44.00%)

With Life Orb:
28 Atk vs 24 Def & 25 HP (75 Base Power): 9 - 11 (36.00% - 44.00%)

28 Atk vs 24 Def & 25 HP (102 Base Power): 11 - 14 (44.00% - 56.00%) - Average of 48.00%

The thing is, HP Fire Carvanha and ThunderPunch Meditite barely 2HKO their intended targets, meaning I can switch back out and save my pokemon for later after taking that first unexpected hit. Murkrow on the other hand, pretty much always OHKO's its targets with its "coverage" move of choice. HP Ice always OHKOs Gligar (unless its SpD Gligar, which still cant hurt Krow), while Heat Wave always OHKOs Komatana and Ferroseed. This means you literally have to guess which coverage move it has, or you will lose a pokemon. Its not like you can scout out its coverage moves, since taking any of its hits once is already hard enough...

You act as if you can simply tank a hit from Meditite with another Pokemon, especially since with Team Preview, it isn't that hard to predict a Gligar / Misdreavus switch in or whatever, and then react accordingly.

 

[kokoloko]

We really should keep prediction out of this debate, because arguments involving it always end up running around in circles (I predict your prediction, etc). That being said, the parts you bolded do sound very ironic, considering Meditite hits just as hard, if not harder, than Murkrow. Perhaps I should have been more clear. In Meditite's case, its easy to switch something into a resisted move and force it out, mostly due to its lower Speed stat. While in Murkrow's case, even if you switch something into a resisted move, you'll probably still have to win a speed tie/mindgame.

 

[SkyNet]

The thing is, HP Fire Carvanha and ThunderPunch Meditite barely 2HKO their intended targets, meaning I can switch back out and save my pokemon for later after taking that first unexpected hit. Murkrow on the other hand, pretty much always OHKO's its targets with its "coverage" move of choice. HP Ice always OHKOs Gligar (unless its SpD Gligar, which still cant hurt Krow), while Heat Wave always OHKOs Komatana and Ferroseed. This means you literally have to guess which coverage move it has, or you will lose a pokemon. Its not like you can scout out its coverage moves, since taking any of its hits once is already hard enough...

HP Ice from a 84 SAtk Naive Krow does (76.9% - 92.3%) to Max HP Evo Stone Gligar with no SpDef investment.

16 SpAtk vs 20 SpDef & 26 HP (70 Base Power): 20 - 24 (76.9% - 92.3%)

HP Fire from an Adamant Carnvanha with no SpAtk investestment does (54.5% - 72.7%) to a Careful 84 HP / 148 SDef Ferroseed

11 SpAtk vs 27 SpDef & 22 HP (70 Base Power): 12 - 16 (54.5% - 72.7%)

Thunder Punch from Meditite will always 2HKO Slowpoke with SR up as Al_Alchemist has proved with calcs, if you are going to make claims its best if you back them up with facts.

 

[kokoloko]

Gligar with no SDef investment only has 19 SDef after Evo Stone, while the typical Ferroseed runs 23 HP / 18 (27) SDef, so your calcs are actually off. Also, cool Slowpoke can take a ThunderPunch and then switch out and get ~60% of the damage you did back due to Regeneration. Besides, even if what you had posted was accurate, it doesn't disprove my point.

 

[SkyNet]

K, with your Ferroseed Spread the damage input is still (52.2% - 69.6%)

And with Gligar SpDef Stat fix'd the damage input is still (76.9% - 92.3%)

So it does disprove your point.

 

[kokoloko]

K, with your Ferroseed Spread the damage input is still (52.2% - 69.6%)

Barely a 2HKO, just like I said in the post you're trying to disprove.

And with Gligar SpDef Stat fix'd the damage input is still (76.9% - 92.3%)

After SR and with minimum damage you're at ~12% and have to win the speed tie / mind game, in order to hurt Murkrow.

So it does disprove your point.

No, it doesn't.

Responses bolded in quote.

 

[SkyNet]

All I was doing was proving that your statements where void, which was all I intended to do.

HP Fire Carvanha and ThunderPunch Meditite barely 2HKO their intended targets......HP Ice always OHKOs Gligar (unless its SpD Gligar, which still cant hurt Krow)

 

[Nails]

That requires you switch in gligar on a sucker punch or a revenge kill, with any residual damage you die. If you lose the speed tie or stone edge misses, and you don't get koed, you're crippled at best, with min damage from hp ice and rocks up you become death fodder, as you can't switch back in because you'll be dead from the rocks. Doesn't seem like a good answer.

 

[SkyNet]

That requires you switch in gligar on a sucker punch or a revenge kill, with any residual damage you die. If you lose the speed tie or stone edge misses, and you don't get koed, you're crippled at best, with min damage from hp ice and rocks up you become death fodder, as you can't switch back in because you'll be dead from the rocks. Doesn't seem like a good answer.

Well Gligar isn't a good answer to LO HP Ice Krow, I was just proving a point.

Nothing can really switch into Mix'd LO Murkrow set as its Brave Bird does hit like a tank, the best way to deal with it imo is via checks, biggest one being Stealth Rocks as LO krow doesn't enjoy the 25% Health lost due to switching in coupled with BB + LO recoil it takes itself down rather quickly. Scarf Mite can check LO Krow if it doesn't switch into a Heatwave and Scarf Snover can revenge with Ice Shard if Krow has taken damage which is likely.

 

[Heysup]

I recently changed my opinion on Murkrow to be broken, but I still haven't changed my opinion on its effectiveness. Murkrow is good at one thing: KOing something else, but more specifically, almost always KOing something important. If you actually let Murkrow KO more than one of your Pokemon, you're doing it wrong. Murkrow (LO) is only broken because it can and will bust holes in a persons team or it can be saved for a late game sweep, however, it can only do one of the above in one given match because of Life Orb, Stealth Rock, and massive Brave Bird recoil.

Meditite on the other hand is almost impossible to not lose a Pokemon to in addition to having quite impressive longevity. Meditite KOes almost the same amount of Pokemon Murkrow does (albeit, prediction required versus some counters), but it isn't necessarily forced out by a bad move where as Murkrow can be switched around and actually fail to complete it's goal. The risk:reward ratio is definitely in Meditites favor, much smaller risk for a merely slightly smaller reward. If you hit Slowpoke with Drain Punch instead of ThunderPunch, the chances of it being able to do something to you in return are quite small. If you Drain Punch Gligar, you straight own him anyway with Ice Punch as he fails to KO you with Earthquake / AAce. If you Brave Bird Def Gligar, Magnemite, or any Rock-type then you've taken roughly 40% damage from BB, LO, and SR and if you happen to be forced out (ie Scarf Magnemite) you're now down to 35% from switching into SR again. And now note that switching into Heat Wave or HP Ice is a joke. With Meditite, again, it heals from making a correct Drain Punch attack and also survives most of the common switch-ins' attacks.

 

[kokoloko]

All I was doing was proving that your statements where void, which was all I intended to do.

Good for you, you managed to completely miss the point of my post if you really think proving my statements "wrong" (I still don't think I'm wrong, but whatever) disproves my point.

 

[Al_Alchemist]

Since your guy's main beef with MixKrow seems to its survivability, thanks to SR, LO, and BB Recoil; would it be too much out of the ballpark to suggest it possibly running roost? Of course the player would have to predict sometimes when and where to use it, there will be opportunities on walls / Defensive Pokes and people that think MixKrow is just about to kill their Gligar / Pawniard / Grass-type or whatever, and you can freely Roost back just enough HP for another round of killing.

@Kokoloko: What does "Barely a 2HKO" even mean? If it 2HKOs all the time it's just a 2HKO, barely in my mind means it 2HKOs with only average damage roll and higher, like on Meditite's TPunch on Slowpoke w/o SR.

On a side note, Meditite can run Recover, just for shits and giggles.