Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
No Gurdurr? aww.. Well, Aggron doesn't really seem to add much to the table to NU really, as it's way to slow to do anything vs less bulkier builds. It's also not that impressive defensively, as almost all other SR users bar Mesprit win vs it in a 1v1 scenario, seeing as it's 4x weak to Earthquake. Comparing it to Rampardos seems the most logical, as all they do is click Head Smash and get killed shortly after. I'm not sure how it will affect the meta (if at all) since I haven't used it, but it seems like a Pokemon that is hard to justify using on a team, and is hard to build around or with. We'll have to see, though.
Smeargle is interesting. We all know what it does but I think that the standard set, (Sticky Web, Stealth Rock, Spore, Explosion/Nuzzle/Whirlwind) would be better if you were to run U-turn over Explosion/Nuzzle/Whirlwind. This is because.. what would you normally switch in to Smeargle? Xatu? yea. Pair Smeargle with a Skuntank or something else that can take advantage or Xatu or can pursuit-trap it, and have success! I think that Taunt Floatzel will become more popular too vs Smeargle leads, as Taunt (normally) completely shuts it down. U-turning on the Taunt and grabbing momentum with something like Lanturn may get you an advantage in the early-game. Mental Herb could be cool too, I guess, but you would run it only for Floatzel and Archeops as all other Taunters (I think? ) are slower than Smeargle.
Gastrodon, lastly, seems like a cool addition too. It shuts down Lanturn, and can switch in to Steelix, Rhydon, Piloswine, and Regirock with ease. This is great, although it can't really do anything with the free switch since it doesn't get Stealth Rock, unfortunately. I think it will find its place on Balance teams that struggle with Ground-types such as DD Rhydon, as physically defensive Gastrodon can live a +2 Earthquake (70.6 - 83.3%) and can OHKO back with Scald. It's also a great Floatzel answer unless it runs HP Grass (which it will, because everybody and their mom is going to use Gastro in the first couple of weeks), but Focus Blast barely even 3HKOs and good luck landing 3 Focus Blasts in a row..!
anyways, I'm interested in other people's opinions about the new drops and how the meta adapts to it. I don't think NU has gotten a major toss-up, but new Pokemon and tactics are always good to see!
I agree with you about Aggron. I guess the most comparable thing to Aggron is Rampardos, but Rock Head makes Aggron an overall better abuser of Head Smash for that reason. Honestly, the only benefit I see Aggron having is the ability to OHKO M-Audino with CB Heavy Slam whilst dissuading switch-ins into Heavy Slam for fear of Head Smash.
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Mega Audino: 362-428 (88.2 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 288-339 (66.5 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 218-260 (61.9 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This doesn't remotely mitigate the fact that his typing is terrible in this tier and that he's so hard to switch in safely. If this were VR, I would give this Pokemon an initial Ranking of B or B+ (being able to 2HKO 80% of the tier without any recoil is something that is noteworthy about it).
EDIT: One of the only safe methods of getting Aggron into battle is through slow Volt-Turner i.e. Lanturn. Considering that the Gastrodon drop really jibs Lanturn's ability Volt-Turn safely, Aggron switch-in safety is going to be worse than expected.
Now Aggron's shortcomings are really obvious, but I feel its advantages are being downplayed too much, especially with this comparison to Rampardos when the two are very distinct in terms of their raw damage output and spamming capability (of which Aggron is clearly superior). Aggron's defensive typing and bulk also allow it to put a lot of pressure on bulkier builds, with its Psychic and Fairy resistances being useful for it. Not to mention it is a Steel-type with massive holepunching potential (in the form of STAB Head Smash off base 110 Attack), which does render the likes of Mawile and Relicanth a lot more obsolete.
Aggron @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam
- Low Kick
- Double-Edge / Toxic
edit: Pokedots you're not wrong in doubting the value of Double-Edge; this is really just a blanket option to 3HKO Gastro, Poliwrath, and Torterra equally, though the fact that the bulkier variants run recovery and the latter two outspeed if running offensive variants does diminish Double-Edge's worth.
Aside from the holepunching CB set, I've also toyed around with the idea of Stone Plate Aggron.
Aggron @ Stone Plate
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam
- Low Kick
- Magnet Rise
While the difference in power between CB and Stone Plate is a bit too large to effectively bluff, the raw power of boosted Head Smash is still something to behold:
252+ Atk Stone Plate Aggron Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 216-254 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
From there, Aggron has two options: it can use Magnet Rise to surprise would-be checks in Steelix and Rhydon who think Aggron is locked into Head Smash and assume they're home-free, only to have the tables turned on them as Aggron threatens to continue its rampage while their other STABs harmlessly bounce off Aggron's hide. If that's not your cup of tea, Aggron can consider other moves like Rock Polish or Substitute to take advantage of helpless mons like Flying-types, Psychic-types, Skuntank, MAudino, etc.
Of course, Aggron's matchup against offense is still rather subpar; it checks very few offensive mons, and the only ones it'd check better than Aurorus would are Scyther and non-LO Xatu (technically I wouldn't even qualify this as offensive anymore tbh). However, Aggron still has a pretty favorable matchup against bulkier teams, or at least teams with fat mons; the ability to punish Mega Audino and Musharna, two of the overall bulkiest mons in the tier, while maintaining high offensive presence (sorry Skuntank and Steelix) has got to be worth a look.
Aggron @ Custap Berry
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
30 HP IVS
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Focus Punch
- Substitute
- Magnet Rise
Step 1: Get up a sub on passive stuff, Steelix, Rhydon, Ferroseed and whatever people will switch into.
Step 2: Profit.
Step 3: Just when the sub has been broken and the opponent, in with a faster mon, thinks the sacking has ended... Activate Custap.
The ev spread could be optimized i feel, and I'm not sold on Focus punch over the more reliable low kick, but this Aggron has game vs both defensive and offensive teams.
Gastro seems cool. It should probably be running physically defensive>specially because most Fire-types can 2HKO it with HP Grass, but it'll have the cool effect of making Focus Blast Magmortar and Charizard less viable options, and so stuff like Regirock or Miltank become better Fire checks, and it can still check Floatzel without the investment. Its bulk is barely enough to check stuff like Tauros, and it checks stuff like Archeops and Rhydon decently, too, though any prior damage will make Tauros and +2 Rhydon deadly, and SD Samurott can unfortunately beat it. It's not really game changing, but it's a solid addition to the tier. An offensive set is probably cool, too.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Gastrodon: 191-226 (44.8 - 53%) -- 27.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Gastrodon: 175-207 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Gastrodon: 166-196 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Samurott Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Gastrodon: 221-260 (51.8 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Smeargle will be pretty solid. It's totally walled by Xatu, which is unfortunate, so U-turn + Skuntank might be a good option (right, forgot skill swap was a thing). A good Sticky Web setter's pretty scary, since now you don't have to spend another teamslot on SR.
Lastly, Aggron seems like a great breaker, though it's really pressured by anything faster, and it is walled/checked by some stuff like Gastrodon, Torterra, Ferroseed, and Poliwrath depending on its last slot, and Steelix and Rhydon keep it from spamming Head Smash. I don't really think Double Edge has any use (that I can think of), since it doesn't even 2HKO Gastrodon, but Fire Punch (which also 2HKOes Torterra) and even Thunder Punch will have some use. \
Cool drops all around, and it's cool to see Quagsire gone
How do i play stall now :(
Drops are cool, gastrodon has really good synergy with zard and scyther which is cool, Aggron barely has many switchins but eh, its slow as hell
Smeargle with nuzzle will probably be the main set as it annoys xatu
But without xatu on the opposing side, i can see Smeargle wrecking havoc
I probably wont run spore, i feel like void will be better despite the accuracy as it shuts down grasses
Sorry if this is kinda short, I'm typing it on phone before my class starts.
So if anything, smeargle will run skill swap to get past xatu as nuzzle isnt very reliable. Smeargle is gonna be a lot of fun tho as it's a more effective Crustle imo
Moving onto Gastrodon, I think this Pokemon can still fill the holes that Quag left. Also Gastrodon can run more sets than Quag. I've already tried specs Gastro and the surprise factor + damage output is really nice. rozes already pointed out to me that Barbaracle is still as threatening as ever because +2 return does 60 min to max defense Gastro and can beat Gastro 1 on 1 with shuca. The only thing I could think of to combat this is yawn because hp grass only does like 60-70 and clear smog doesn't stop them from smashing again. Anyway just my thoughts
This set is actually pretty neat as it's a really good lure to Gastrodon, who will usually switch into Barb thinking it will Smash, and take a hit and Clear Smog or Earth Power it or whatnot, since +2 Return or EQ doesn't OHKO. But with Tough Claws Grass Knot, Barbaracle can destroy Gastrodon who don't invest in Special Defense (Which hopefully is all of them because PDef is so much better), OHKOing it with LO after a Shell Smash, or 2HKOing it with Shuca Berry or killing it after some hazards. While there are a lot of things that can deal with Gastrodon that synergize decently with Barbaracle, it's still pretty cool to see it getting lured.
+2 4 SpA Life Orb Tough Claws Barbaracle Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 426-504 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 4 SpA Tough Claws Barbaracle Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 328-388 (76.9 - 91%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
Also Gastro is love and Gastro is life but I'll post on that later
Speaking of Aggron, I was tinkering with it for a bit and I found something cool. While yes, CB and other options are arguably better, but I believe this at least deserves a mention:
Ogre Magi (Aggron) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Metal Burst
- Thunder Wave or (Taunt or something, even low kick)
- Head Smash
(THIS does not play the same as Focus Punch Custap.)
Lead Aggron can be surprisingly effective with its access to Sturdy and SR. With access to Metal Burst, you're also capable of donking mons when they don't expect it, which nets a kill and allows you then to use Custap, to quickly fire off a Head Smash, doing massive damage and retaining momentum. (akin to Custap Skarm in OU which uses BB) Taunt is definitely an option to stop Lix and other folk from using stealth rock. Considering Xatu isn't coming in, you're pretty much free to get rocks up. I mean, you can honestly play around with the other two slots, but Rocks + Head smash is pretty important.
Now here's another variation that slightly works better in ladder.
EY BOSS (Aggron) @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Metal Burst
- Low Kick (or filler)
- Head Smash
But why would I run like negative speed ahuhuhu? Well, this variant allows you to actually be slow enough to donk Golem, EQ Lix, Gastrodon and other slow mons with Metal Burst, whereas the previous version could not. Since it's also running a +Attack Nature, its Head Smash can also definitely work better. Honestly, which version you choose is defintely up to you and your team.
Here's a possible partner for Aggron (in general, not my poopy set) that can definitely lure in Poliwrath/Gastrodon ez.
Physically Defensive Poliwrath or Poli in general is definitely going to rise up in popularity due to its ability to stop Aggron, and the same case applies for Gastrodon (at least the defensive sets). Samurott can terrorize both by using Block (thus trapping them) and crushing both with Grass Knot. Definitely a fun lure that can indeed work.
While Toxic is probably going to be more common in the 4th slot, Curse can effectively turn Gastrodon into an extremely bulky wincon that becomes very hard to take down after it has a couple boosts under its belt. The EV spread lets Gastrodon take on HP Grass Magmortar and Pyroar slightly easier, while also checking other powerful special attackers like Specs Swellow, Haunter, non GK variants of Samurott, Combusken, Poliwrath, and Jynx. Earthquake is also really nice on Gastro to deal substantially bigger amounts of damage to AV Magmortar, Lanturn, Jynx, Hitmonchan, and Grumpig.
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Parting Shot
- Spikes
- Skill Swap / Nuzzle
This Smeargle set functions as a really annoying pivot. You have the choice to put something to sleep, gain momentum with parting shot, or just lay down some spikes. Skill Swap helps against Xatu since Parting Shot forces the opponent to switch rather than getting to switch yourself. Nuzzle is a fine option over Skill Swap if you dont care about Xatu that much.
I don't understand this part; Parting Shot should remain functionally unchanged even if used against a Magic Bouncer, as Magic Bounce does not reverse any effects that affect both combatants. If that was how it worked, people would be attempting to Memento Magic Bouncers to have them kill themselves lol.
I don't understand this part; Parting Shot should remain functionally unchanged even if used against a Magic Bouncer, as Magic Bounce does not reverse any effects that affect both combatants. If that was how it worked, people would be attempting to Memento Magic Bouncers to have them kill themselves lol.
Curious indeed; I guess this makes Parting Shot the lone exception for moves that affect both mons and manages to get reflected by Magic Bounce (which makes me all the more mad that Memento doesn't get reflected by Magic Bounce).
So i wrote a long quality post few hours ago that took me at least half an hour and just when I was about to post it, I accidentaly clicked refresh page and guess what happened ._. Anyway, im really exciting about new drops so yeah, im actually writing this from beggining again lol, so heres my thoughts
-With Quagsire leaving in OU, we got another pokemon with great defensive Water/Ground typing which gives it a lot of resistances and leaves it with only 1 weakness, making gastrodon a great fit for more balanced/or defensive builds like stall, allowing it to check plenty of threats like kabutops/omastar/barbaracle/DD Rhydon which are all very threatening to balanced teams without a dedicated check, it also checks prominent threats like archeops and tauros for bonus(even though tauros has very small chance of 2-koing it,gastrodon still isnt concidered as normal check so having something to deal with scythers/other normal types is a must have), it easily switches into steelix and has the opportunity to scald burn something and evades 2-KO from choice banded Aggrons head smash which is crucial in this metagame. Gastrodon has the great ability in storm drain which gives it water immunity and boosts its sp.atk which is already somewhat decent, NU kinda lacked scald/water checks and gastrodon is one of the better rain counters as well, so theres that ( Just a quick note here, I saw few people talking about Sticky Hold being useful for not knocking its leftovers, but storm drain is what makes gastrodon good and sticky hold should never be ran over it)
Having the water immunity, Gastrodon is also a voltblock which is very useful for teams, however it fears the coverage of pokemon like Manectric/E-vire which always carry HP Grass for ground types like rhydon, so pokemon like thick fat Miltank/Hariyama look good as gastrodon partners on paper, they can also check fire types like magmortar/pyroar/zard for gastrodon as long as they dont carry focus blast for miltank, which definitely wont be that common with gastro arriving in tier.
Gastrodon movepool and stats are also very promising, and even though defensive set is easily the best one, offensive ones equipped with Choice specs or either 3 atks+recover are definitely viable options to try.
Most common set consists of scald/earth power/recover and either toxic to cripple some of its switchins or hit pokemon like mantine that counters it, while Ice beam hits grass types like shiftry/lilligant that think can freely set up vs it or switch into gastro, Curse set is also a viable option but definitely less common set than others since a lot of things threatens it out.
While gastrodon has its qualities, it has really low speed leaving it vulnerable to anything faster with coverage moves, its also somewhat passive leaving it limited to mostly balanced builds, status moves like toxic can hurt it so having a cleric from pokemon like vileplume/miltank/musharna are good options to consider, while on stall Audino fills this role the best.
This thing is a different story, its a pokemon that will most likely have more disscusion than other 2 drops, being more deadly than both and bring fear into NU. I knew aggron is gonna join NU at some point so I kinda hoped for it to drop this month, being curious how it would affect the metagame, and while im still not sure about if its a healthy pokemon here ( we will definitely need some days to adapt), I already formed wide opinion about it.
When you take a first look on Aggron stats, you notice a mediocre HP, huge attack and gigantic defense stat, followed by not so good sp.def and enough speed for a wallbreaker. While some may think Aggron can utilize the defensive wall set with either impish/careful nature + stealth rocks, that is not the case as its typing leaves it weak to common coverage moves like EQ which its 4x weak to, fighting weakness is also huge and it cant really check psychic types despite resisting it since sp.def stat is rather low. Steelix and other stealth rockers outclass aggron as defensive pokemon as steelix has huge physical bulk, decent HP and big number of resistances without being 4x weak to anything, it can also check things like musharna better. However, offensive stealth rocks set with sash+sturdy and metal burst is still usable, but thats not the set ill focus on right now. Aggrons best quality is definitely in having a combination of monstrous attack+ rock head+ head smash which allows it to Ohko/2 KO everything not resisting it, while even 2Ko-ing some of its checks which makes them being able to switch only once on aggron, and Aggron team support should always be pokemon that switches into its counters and have a strong defensive backbone since a lot of fast/offensive things can threaten it out which makes it matchup vs offensive teams a bit harder.
-However, dont let that discourage you, as aggron bulk is still good and can easily switch into pokemon like swellow locked in boomburst, scyther ,and other pokemon that cant 2 KO it since lack of coverage moves to hit aggron and it can get at least 1 kill vs offensive teams, mesprit is also common stealth rock user on offensive and defensive mesprit serving as fighting check cant do much vs aggron so it can pretty much get a free switchin and bop something. Despite aggron not having the best matchup vs offense, its terrifying vs more balanced/defensive things since whenever it gets in(pokemon like musharna/audino gets destroyed by aggron and it can even predict things like mantine/pelipper and get a kill on something if opponent doesnt have a hard check/counter like gastrodon/torterra/poliwrath which are probably the most reliable one, I can also see torterra getting more usage this month and gastro will naturally be used a lot since its a new pokemon here, Poliwrath is tricky one and i prefer special set over bulky one with restalk since i dont think it rly fits balanced builds best,especially ones without hazard support in spikes. From checks and counters lets move on to the good partners for aggron. Having something speedy that can clean up late game and benefit from aggron wallbreaking is definitely gonna be useful, so fast things from tauros/swellow to pokemon like archeops makes for great partners, Volturn support is also a good option to bring aggron safely in, and defensive pokemon like torterra/gastrodon/weezing are good partners since torterra can lay stealth rocks and other 2 checks aggron weaknesses during match having some sort of recovery.
Aggron @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam
- Superpower
- Fire Punch
-Thats mostly it, I probably forgot some details but this is mostly what i think of both so far
Gastrodon @ Life Orb / Mystic Water
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Recover
Since everybody has gone over the other viable Gastrodon sets (PDef, Curse) I'll go over my favorite Gastrodon set, offensive Gastrodon. While 92 Special Attack isn't terribly good, boosted by Life Orb and a potential Storm Drain boost, Gastrodon's attacks become surprisingly and hard to switch into. With reliable recovery in Recover, Gastrodon can keep itself alive to keep dishing out hits, and while it isn't the strongest wallbreaker or anything like that, it's still a pretty nice bulky offensive set that can also check threats such as Aggron and Lanturn. Imo Gastrodon is a really good mon due to having a good amount of viable sets, blanket checking a good amount of the tier, and having reliable recovery to top it off as well, and it's gonna be a great asset to balance and stall teams in this meta.
Bouffalant @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe or 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Earthquake
Bouffalant's a mon that seems to have gone under the radar lately, especially since Sceptile came to the tier, lessening it's viability as a Grass check due to Focus Blast. But now that Sceptile is gone, Bouffalant can finally be one of the better offensive Grass checks, as it counters Lilligant and Tangela, and checks Vileplume and Roselia (Also switches into Sleep Powder from Vivillon), and it's a pretty good bulky win condition thanks to Swords Dance and it's number of set-up opportunities. It also forms a sweet core with Gastrodon, as it checks most Grass-types bar Gourgeist, and Gastrodon deals with things Bouffalant doesn't especially like, such as Rhydon and Steelix. The EV spreads above are of your choice, the first one outspeeds Lanturn and Adamant Rhydon and ensures Prinplup (lol) won't break it's Sub, while the second one decreases bulk for the ability to outspeed Jolly Rhydon and dent it with Earthquake. Overall, Bouffalant is a pretty decent mon nowadays with the rise of Grass-types and is a nice alternative to other Sap Sippers like Miltank and Sliggoo for it's increased offensive presence.
Just going to add my little bit on Aggron. As many people have expressed, it has very few things in the tier that it can't 2HKO with banded head smash, and pretty great move pool around that too. From what I have experienced since the drops, most teams switch ins consist of Steelix, Rhydon etc. meaning it's things that rely on it being locked into head smash. Although it seems gimmicky at first, Punchshroom 's magnet rise set can force damage on other mons that you don't want to be damaged which can be crucial. Anything slower than Aggron that can't OHKO it back or at least 2HKO seems like dead weight on teams now. It completely destroys balance, but can be very mediocre vs offense especially with a few sets I've experimented with since it dropping. A few examples-
I think focus blast will just be a staple on Garbodor now, since it can OHKO Aggron (even with it's usual impish nature and no investment) whereas drain punch does very little. Not sure how necessary 132 speed will be in the long term, but it's obviously to outspeed jolly. 0- SpA Garbodor Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 312-368 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hear me out on this one. I genuinely think Diglett could be useful in this meta. If rocks aren't up it completely prevents Aggron from destroying your team by trapping it and a guaranteed OHKO with earth power with this set. If rocks are up, it can at least take it out once a mon drops. 32 SpA Diglett Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 288-340 (102.4 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO It can still memento on a lot of the tier with it's decent speed and can consistently get rocks up if you aren't facing Aggron. Worth trying out imo since it can free up the rest of your team to not have to worry about Aggron.
Overall I think Aggron is amazingly good in this meta, not sure if it's borked yet since it's still early days but definitely needs to be considered greatly when building teams. Gastrodon seems to have a lot less impact, but is definitely a viable choice, especially with (rip) Quagsire leaving us. I haven't played around much with it though, so I'll post more on that once i have more of an informed opinion.
so starting off w/ the drop that i'm most excited for w/ smeargle. the only reason im so happy that we are getting smeargle is that it means webs can be a viable playstyle again. this opens up the field a bunch of underrated threats like flareon, marowak, and other slow hard hitters to take the field again. smeargle also allows for hazard stack to be a lot more popular due to the fact skill swap allows it to get past xatu. w/ stealth rock and spike support a lot of things become more threatening and in general i feel like smeargle just make nu a lot more hazard based and will make defoggers more popular due to our lack of good defiant mons / ability to stop defoggers while spin blockers on the whole are still pretty popular and can stop any attempts are removing webs / hazards.
i think the main set is going to be: dark void | skill swap | stealth rock | spikes / stick webs. a lot of people seem to be sleeping on how good skill swap is going to be due to the fact it can put magmortar to sleep, mess w/ weather sweepers, and most importantly get past xatu. there are also some other cool options that people have mentioned itc like nuzzle / u-turn which can be other options to deal w/ the opposing team though i think skill swap will be the main move run in that slot. magic coat is another really cool option in order to get by things like skunk / archeops w/ taunt and even bouncing back hazards from other leads and hazard setters. overall i think smeargle is going to have a really big impact on nu, shifting it to an even more hazard based metagame and i wouldn't be surprised if we saw a suspect for it coming in the near future.
aggron is another really cool addition, and its definitely going to be a top tier mon for the duration of its stay in nu. we've already seen a taste of what a solid rock stab in nu can do with mons like cb relicanth and cb archeops picking up a bit of popularity over the past few months in nu and aggron just takes that power even higher. due to aggrons great coverage and decent stabs its going to be near impossible to switch into, with a few things like poliwrath / torterra / gastrodon being able to deal with its stabs and its coverage moves. with low kick to get past things like steelix and rhydon, there really is going to be a heavy centralization around rock resists in this meta. it also appreciates smeargle dropping down at the same time as it, as all of its common checks are easily worn down by spikes and rocks which smeargle is able to get up from turn 1. it also appreciates webs support, as with choice band head smash being able to threaten faster teams which can no longer rely on things like floatzel and tauros to revenge kill it due to aggron outspeeding them with webs support. i also feel that sooner or later non-choiced sets will be a lot more popular due to the power that aggron has even w/o its band and the power it has to switch up moves. i have a feeling the lead set w/ metal burst is also going to be really good due to how well it can pressure xatu and metal burst being able to basically guarantee a kill if you play it right.
have a feeling at the start choice band w/ head smash | heavy slam | low kick | toxic / fire punch. this coverage only really misses out on poliwrath / gastrodon / and torterra if not running fire punch and toxic is able to cripple them all. pairing it with things like garbodor / smeargle / mesprit in order to get up hazards is killer as mesprit and garbodor also provide the team with a fighting resist, and mesprit to ground as well. it will work really well on volt turn cores as well, as having a strong physical attacker to switch into is always good for volt turn.
lead sets with metal burst | stealth rock | head smash | taunt / low kick / explosion with custap + sturdy also give teams another cool suicide lead that can also punish attackers w/ metal burst + sturdy being a really hard combo to take down.
rock polish could also have some merit with rock polish | head smash | heavy slam | low kick and lum / lo / resist berry for the item in order to clean up faster paced teams late game. though i feel a lot of the time aggron would rather hit those teams with a head smash from choice band as it will have little to no switch ins, and this set is still hit /hard/ by moves like mach punch and aqua jet while aggron itself isn't that strong without some form of a boosting item so i dont think this set will catch that much momentum and will be one of the more niche aggron sets.
even though i mainly talked about the positives of aggron, there definetly are a few flaws that can't be overlooked. one is that it basically forces you to run a secondary normal checks, as common normal types like tauros / kangaskhan / etc all are able to hit it really hard with earthquake, basically ohkoing it every time unless it has shuca or an air balloon. its also very slow which doesn't help against the fast paced metagame that was have right now, though running max speed does alleviate this to an extent. overall i think aggron is going to be a really big threat in nu, but i still dont think its enough for it to be suspected.
going to use the last part of this post in order to bring something up to the council / everyone's attention. chicken pass to xatu is one of the cheapest and easiest ways to get wins in nu. there is very little that can stop this combination, as a xatu with speed and a lot of boosts is almost impossible to check. here are a few of replays showing how good the strat is: 1 / 2 / 3. there are definetly a lot more, and it was able to get a shit ton of players reqs as well during the suspect test as its a very hard strat to beat. i would personally like to see some sort of a quick ban on passing speed boosts or some kind of ban that is able to ban the combination of combusken + xatu being able to just dominate teams due to how impossible it is to prepare for them. ill leave the team that ive been using with chicken pass lately for you guys to try it out, and im asking everyone to please just try it out at least because it really is one of the most broken strategies in nu and really makes the tier a lot less competitive and fun.
Does anyone have an opinion on sand teams right now? I've been toying with the standard Hippopotas, Sandslash, Stoutland core and it puts in work. I just wanted to try out the arche type real quick so my team around them is probably subpar (Mixed defensive Wishpasser Megadino, Scarf Ludicolo, Focus Sash Lead Omastar), and while it's obviously not the most reliable way to play NU right now, it's a lot of fun and still puts in some work. The recent Aggron drop and the everlasting popularity of Steelix make stab earthquakes better than ever before, and they hurt a lot coming from adamant LO Sandslash.
Tbh, sand imo really is the weakest HO variant of weather we have available in NU (i'm not including hail, as it's not really HO) with only 1 reliable setter, and can't even rely on prankster mons like liepard or meowstic to set it up. Stoutland is outclassed by our current normal types, especially once sand has gone, and sandslash doesn't really do much that i wouldn't use another ground type instead. Sand force is also one of the worst weather abilities, only giving a LO damage boost to ground, steel and rock; which is just meh. Even in OU with excal, it's still meh post-gen 5 imo. And the spd boost honestly isn't a selling point for rock types, as very few can use it correctly especially on HO, as it's defensive. Both sand rush abusers are physical too, meaning that if a dedicated wall is available, they're not doing much. In terms of anti-weather, hail is also far better as it stops it and doesn't potentially boost the defences of your opponent in the process (which sand does to things like oma and kabutops); with two viable setters that don't require support like hippo.
Tbh, sand imo really is the weakest HO variant of weather we have available in NU (i'm not including hail, as it's not really HO) with only 1 reliable setter, and can't even rely on prankster mons like liepard or meowstic to set it up. Stoutland is outclassed by our current normal types, especially once sand has gone, and sandslash doesn't really do much that i wouldn't use another ground type instead. Sand force is also one of the worst weather abilities, only giving a LO damage boost to ground, steel and rock; which is just meh. Even in OU with excal, it's still meh post-gen 5 imo. And the spd boost honestly isn't a selling point for rock types, as very few can use it correctly especially on HO, as it's defensive. Both sand rush abusers are physical too, meaning that if a dedicated wall is available, they're not doing much. In terms of anti-weather, hail is also far better as it stops it and doesn't potentially boost the defences of your opponent in the process (which sand does to things like oma and kabutops); with two viable setters that don't require support like hippo.
Ya I definitely agree in that it is the weakest variant of the weather teams, I just wondered if it has gotten better in comparison to where it was before the drops or even earlier. I wouldn't play sand in any serious environment, but sometimes you wanna mix things up and I'm sort of running out of sleeper sets to try, so I wanted to give it a shot.
Speaking of which, any unusual mons or sets you guys have been using effectively recently, anything you wanna share that does well in our current meta? I've played a bit with SD Pinsir recently and while it's not exactly super unusual, it's relatively uncommon - but it's really good against the current meta with a Lum berry because it sets up on Weezing and OHKOs with Earthquake after a boost. I've seen a lot of Weezing/Vileplume/Steelix as dedicated physical walls, and all of those get OHKOd by Pinsir after rocks and just a bit of chip damage. It sits in an awkward speed tier, but first of all, we just got an amazing sticky webs setter and Pinsir eats every single defogger alive, while rapid spin can easily be played around with a spin blocker. Second of all, the speed tier is not too bad for a late game cleaner, as there are plenty of ways to handle slower threats.
As far as Gastrodon goes, this is a set I've been using:
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Recover
- Hidden Power Fire
Bulky offensive Gastrodon has done pretty well for me. It still has the bulk to check some physical and special attackers while also being an amazing switch in to pretty much any water type in the tier. Obvious STABs and recovery, the last slot is to hit grass types. HP Fire makes it a great Ferroseed lure and hits Abomasnow very hard, which are both normally free switch ins. Sludge Bomb and Ice Beam hit some grass types harder, but the value of luring in Ferroseed is generally more useful to me. Vileplume is a pretty good partner, being a fairly reliable switch in to grass types not named Abomasnow, and can provide Aromatherapy support to remove status like Toxic. Obviously it doesn't deal with Aggron super well so you'll need something else for that, but it still checks a lot of attackers and is pretty strong.
going to use the last part of this post in order to bring something up to the council / everyone's attention. chicken pass to xatu is one of the cheapest and easiest ways to get wins in nu. there is very little that can stop this combination, as a xatu with speed and a lot of boosts is almost impossible to check. here are a few of replays showing how good the strat is: 1 / 2 / 3. there are definetly a lot more, and it was able to get a shit ton of players reqs as well during the suspect test as its a very hard strat to beat. i would personally like to see some sort of a quick ban on passing speed boosts or some kind of ban that is able to ban the combination of combusken + xatu being able to just dominate teams due to how impossible it is to prepare for them. ill leave the team that ive been using with chicken pass lately for you guys to try it out, and im asking everyone to please just try it out at least because it really is one of the most broken strategies in nu and really makes the tier a lot less competitive and fun.
Just wanted to post to say that I completely agree with suspecting Speed Boost + Baton Pass. Combusken basically just needs an opportunity to force something out (which it can do thanks to decent offenses and high-powered STABs), get a Substitute, and then the counterplay is so limited that it's basically impossible to stop Xatu (or Malamar) from getting the Speed boosts. Xatu bounces Roar and Whirlwind back (which are very uncommon anyways), Substitute + Will-O-Wisp blocks Dragon Tail, and most priority attacks aren't strong enough to deal with phys def Xatu or a boosted Malamar. While Combusken is obviously the best user of this combination, Ninjask could also potentially set up a similar situation, albeit with less consistency. The reward of Speed Boost and a passive set focused on accumulating and passing boosts is too high, as the risk of Combusken not being able to use the boosts effectively is completely mitigated once they are passed to the appropriate receiver (which there are lots of in the tier). This strategy isn't that common but frankly I think that's because most players who know about it realise how easy it makes the game and don't fancy getting rude messages from their opponents. A suspect test would help establish whether there was sufficient counterplay for it to be allowed in, and popularise these methods so that this combination doesn't become too overwhelming, or just ban it outright if it isn't an option. I don't want to ban Speed passing altogether as something like Agility Pass Floatzel clearly isn't broken; it has to spend turns generating the Speed before it can pass it, increasing the risk of it being stopped. And I don't want to ban Combusken as Swords Dance and Special Attacker sets are fine and fun.
I've seen chat talk about this most of today so I hope there's some official discussion going on about this.
This thing is kinda cool, being able to beat both Gastrodon and Aggron with Freeze-Dry and HP Fighting, respectively. Having a relatively high special attack and special defense, and speed allows it to switch in on quite a few things with ease. It can also run a few different hidden powers, adding to its unpredictability. It can run hp ground, fighting, and fire effectively and all three have their own uses. Being able to remove hazards is also just another plus, as is having recover so it can repeatedly switch in to the special attackers said above. Overall I think the drops helped Cryogonal in a way and heres to hoping it eventually gets some use.
252 SpA Never-Melt Ice Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gastrodon: 520-616 (122 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Cryogonal Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aggron: 320-380 (113.8 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cryogonal: 99-117 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Cryogonal Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Magmortar: 124-146 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO <- offensive mag w/out av
Another thing that just got better with the recent drops. Not only is it fast with three immunities thanks to Levitate, but its support options are amazing. With access to taunt, thunder wave, WoW, hex, pain split and a few others, mismagius makes its mark as one of the better ghost types in nu. It serves as a useful fighting check thanks to colbur berry and the fighting immunity. Smeargle dropping helped it in two ways as well. Now Mismagius has a consistent thing to taunt against, and it also has been pretty good on webs (offensive mismag of course).
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Toxic
- Recover
One of the recent drops, Gastrodon is pretty unique. With a really nice 111 hp, and decent 68/82 defenses, it'll make its mark as one of the premier balance/stall mons. Another thing that I've been trying out is specs Gastro. Not as effective and harder to fit on my team, its still a neat option that hits suprisingly hard with nice coverage options. Another thing that sets Gastrodon apart from a few others is is has storm drain and recover, something a few mons could only dream of. Great addition to the tier for sure! :)
Aggron @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Head Smash
- Heavy Slam
- Low Kick
- Fire Punch
In my opinion the least useful of the three drops, Aggron has a few noticeable flaws that prevent it from functioning at its full potential. 1) Its really low speed allows it to be easily outsped and played around, and I have seen Trick Room maybe once in NU. 2) Its low special defense makes it extremely susceptible to getting ohko'd by almost any super effective special move. 3) having a 4x weakness to two of the most prominent offensive types being fighting and ground hinders it dearly. I will admit that it hits pretty hard, but there are checks and ways to get around it like revenge killing it. This'll for sure be a good mon, but certainly won't be the best.
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Dark Void
- Nuzzle / Skill Swap / Explosion
Obviously this is an interesting drop, having access to every relevant move in the game. Smeargle has always been a suicide lead, and its going to stay this way, so at least its niche is the same in every other tier. I think this will make Sticky Web more viable, I'm not saying its the best playstyle, but its going to be more viable and used for sure. I'm interested to see what this does for hyper offense and makes more teams run hazard control because you do NOT want sticky web, stealth rock, a sleeping mon and your opponent having momentum if they have explosion and manage to get it off. I don't really see Smeargle doing anything else besides passing belly drums s/o Kiyo. Once again, I'm interested in seeing how this one will turn out
tl;dr, good drops, all three will be good, a few other mons will gain viability and sticky web will be a more viable playstyle
