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Kiyo

I'm curious.
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
NU Leader
#1

Out with the old, in with the new.

In case you missed it, Aurora Veil was recently banned by a council vote after some discussion in the Policy Review forum. In addition we had some tier shifts and this is what we gained and lost:

+

+


-

-

-


Be sure to get out there and see what the two new additions have to offer.

Please use this thread to discuss the current metagame, including things you've found success with, things you think are generally under or overrated, and anything else that pertains to the NU meta.

As a general reminder, please no one-liners and be sure your post is one worth reading.
fuck hootie
 
#2
If you wanna talk about the new mons


Froslass@ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt
- Spikes

This is the best Froslass set, in my opinion. Compared to other Ice- and Ghost-types in the tier, Froslass is frankly weak. You're better off using Vanilluxe or Mismagius if you want pure power. However, the thing that makes Froslass shine in this metagame is the fact that it's the only really relevant offensive Spiker that can set/keep up its Spikes up against opposing hazard control. Froslass scares Xatu and Golbat from coming in and its Ghost-typing makes it so that Hitmonlee has to revenge kill it first before getting off a spin. I've been testing this set out a lot and it's actually really surprising how consistently Froslass can set up Spikes in any given game by abusing its high Speed and decent offensive presence. I've been really happy with the impact its left so far on the tier. It's nice to have that diversity in the types of offensive threats we can bring.
 
#3
Mega Audino is a great addition to this tier not only to builds that appreciate its wish passing sets or its crodino sets but also to trick room builds.

Audino-Mega @ Audinite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Knock Off
- Healing Wish
- Magic Coat

Knock off for general utility, Healing Wish to revive an abuser, and Magic Coat to deflect taunt/spikes/rocks/t-wave/toxic are all great qualities of a trick room setter but not only that, this gives Trick Room both a knock off switch-in and a dark check. The few advantages Mega Audino have over Aromatisse are massive as it is not only bulkier but has regenerator pre-mega form, much higher mixed bulk, can absolutely wall Misgmagius, and healing wish which is crucial to keep up momentum in a trick room team. Killing Mega Audino is extremely difficult as even the tier's strongest wallbreakers lack coverage options to break through it's ridiculous bulk allowing it to pivot around and set up trick room multiple times a game even.

Example Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vikavolt Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 160-190 (39.1 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Delphox Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 253-298 (61.8 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 252 SpA Mismagius Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Audino-Mega: 115-136 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Seguing to the state of trick room in the current meta, the loss of Machamp while it sucks losing one of the few physical wallbreakers that can handle Slowbro (after rocks), Hariyama proves to be an effective replacement sacrificing those crucial few attack points for a bit extra bulk. The loss of aurora veil is great as it was hard to fit brick break on any of your sweeper's movesets and defog is not common among trick room builds except for the odd Lurantis.

http://pokepast.es/96ddc13236f3a7b1

I've climbed to around the top 10 of the ladder with this team in particularly as it capitalizes on many meta trends such as the omnipotence of Slowbro-Steelix cores. Uxie is mandatory for rocks and is just overall trick room user that has great type synergy with Mega Audino. Exeggutor-Alola is the Offensive Trick Room user of choice as it handles pretty much every team without a fairy often netting 2+ kills a game. Clawitzer and is a decent breaker capable of deleting grounds alongside Exeggutor and they both pave the way for Choice Specs Vikavolt to annihilate pretty much every threat in the tier. Hariyama simply is worse Machamp but it still packs a hefty punch and being even more difficult to kill.

Side note: The longer we progress in the metagame, the more it seems Slowbro simply dictates how meta trends come and go. It's gotten as bad as running toxic on choice mons, the lower usage of physical attackers that cannot break it (Sawk, Tauros, Medicham, etc.), and the favor-ability of special attackers as a whole (Slowking's decline, rise of Vanilluxe and Vikavolt). It's even making stuff that should be mediocre (for example Z Gallade and Guzzlord) better than they should be. Often higher level matches resort to "who can break Slowbro first?" and the versatility of it is kind of insane being able to bait out its hard counters (such as Sceptile or Guzzlord) with Buginium Z and Firium Z blowing them to hell and back without even a CM boost at times. Not saying it's broken but every team needs to carry a Slowbro check or their goose is cooked.
 
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Cresselia92

formerly Darklatias92
#4
I know that Aurora Veil has been banned in this tier, but perhaps this new information could be somewhat relevant:

Pokemon Sun/Moon Battle Mechanics Research

As mentioned here, Aurora Veil and the screens can't stack. That means that even if they all are active, the Pokémon behind both the veil and the screens takes half damage, rather than a quarter. So, things like Aurora Veil + screens won't be an effective strategy anymore.

Not sure how relevant it is or if this news would be enough to not consider Aurora Veil (as) broken, but I found it important information.
 
#5
I've been using Mega Audino lately, and it's been really good. Some people thought it would be outclassed by Aromatisse, but if anything I think it's the other way round - Audino is faster and much bulkier. I think its best sets are CM RestTalk and CM + 3 attacks - as a pure wall and Wish passer, it faces competition from Vaporeon who also has Scald and can pass bigger Wishes. That said, M-Audino is much bulkier than Vaporeon, and it has Regenerator pre mega, so it's still viable.
 
#6
i've been playing a bit lately (got about 25 games under my belt in the new meta). right now i'm using hyper offense with froslass/drudd as my hazard dudes because of how well they handle xatu, and both have been really good. ice beam/taunt/wisp/spikes froslass is probably the best set. wisp is really good vs most common stealth rockers because they can be difficult to wear down on hyper offense. burn wears them down + makes them easier to set up on/attack repeatedly later in the game. on drudd i've been using mold breaker with sr/dragon tail/toxic/glare. it's a soft check to a lot of problematic pokemon, and mold breaker lets you get up rocks against xatu and toxic it if necessary.

also mega audino is really fat but i'm not a huge fan of it or aromatisse. the most common offensive nukes do a ton to both (specs vanilluxe, cb emboar, vikavolt, etc.) and they don't offer much defensive synergy to the team. both take on sneasel well, but i'd rather run something like emboar + another offensive check to sneasel because they're better vs. most everything else. they also both tend to give a free switch to the aforementioned nukes, which is about the worst thing you can do in this meta.

sd rott is really good too. bad vs. rotom-mow and virizion, but it's pretty insane vs. everything else.
 
#7
i believe froslass will be the preferred spiker on hazard stack teams because it blocks most of nu's good spinners and threats most of nu's defoggers. it also has a good speed tier and utility as a lead with moves like w-o-w, dbond, icy wind, and taunt.
mega audino isnt as good also last gen because their are more set and stone walls that fit teams better. its still a good wish passer with the ghost immunity over aromatisse and superior bulk. The sweeper set can be good at times and bad at others as it really doesnt hit hard after boost.
 

Earth

out of my head
is a Community Contributor
#8
i wanna talk about a really good Pokemon in the metagame right now that has been hyped a little more lately


Barbaracle @ Rockium Z
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash
- Razor Shell
- Stone Edge
- Return / Grass Knot

Barbaracle is a really amazing smasher, and people have been realizing it. While it was already pretty good in ORAS, it became absolutely terrifying in SM with the introduction of Z-Moves, becoming insanely hard to check -- still manageable with mons that are able to revenge kill it but it's an amazing cleaner and sweeper once you get rid of the Scarf / priority mons that could potentially threaten it (such as Hitmonlee). It has very few reliable defensive answer that generally aren't really common Pokemon aside from Seismitoad, and other bulky waters which can get lured by the somewhat rare Grass Knot, although they’re still decent checks. Overall, Barbaracle is just a really potent Pokemon and I'm glad people are using it more!
 
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Hootie

is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
C&C & NU Leader
#9
Hello, discussion on this thread is a bit on the inactive side, so I wanted to bring up something that should spark some discussion. As you all know, this metagame is still filled with many threats, which can make teambuilding an issue at times. There's been some Pokemon that have been brought up recently like Emboar, Slowbro, and Vanilluxe as potential issues, but I'd like to touch on a Pokemon that I feel as though is overwhelming in a lot of aspects, more than any other in this tier: Barbaracle. If you play this tier enough, you know what Barbaracle does; sets up Shell Smash and cleans up mid- to late-game. Normally something like this isn't much of an issue for the tier, but Barbaracle is unique in a lot aspects that push it above and beyond in this current metagame. Barbaracles sheer power and fantastic coverage make it so efficient at what it does and several changes this gen make it so much better than ORAS NU, mainly the introduction of Z moves, more Pokemon that support it than ever, and a fast paced metagame filled with teams easily swept once it sets up. The state of the current metagame in particular is one the key reasons why Barbaracle is good right now, as previously good Pokemon in ORAS NU, like Ferroseed and Gurdurr as a couple of examples, find themselves having a much harder time fitting onto teams for this current gen due to the metagame being favorable to more offensive archetypes.

The main issue I have with Barbaracle is how it essentially functions as a sweeper and a breaker in one, with it being able to OHKO most of the metagame with little prior damage and 2HKOing supposed checks like Seismitoad, Slowbro, and Vaporeon (if Z Move it's able to OHKO the latter two provided it gets mindgames right). I find that this is quite problematic because not only is it the strongest setup sweeper by a significant margin, but it's also very bulky and has the typing to make certain Pokemon a complete liability, like Scarf Emboar and Sneasel for instance. Just the presence of it being on the opposing side alone forces certain Pokemon to played in a certain way to avoid giving Barbaracle a free setup opportunity and what usually results in it winning the game. If you run Jolly (which at this point should be the only nature used, even on Sticky Webs teams) there's very little that actually revenge kills Barbaracle save for Hitmonlee's Mach Punch which needs prior damage anyways. All of these traits make this Pokemon in my eyes, one that should be looked into the most. hate earth for bringing up barbaracle in this thread before i finished writing this smh
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#10
Since discussion is dead again, I want to talk about something that's basically exactly what Hootie said but I think we really need to shine light on, because it's an issue that's only growing by the minute. That issue is Barbaracle.


I'm sure a lot of you already know what this does, but if you don't, it clicks Shell Smash then 6 moves (99.5% of the time). The thing that makes this different from other Shell Smash sweepers is it's nearly impossible to check. Like Hootie mentioned, would-be checks aren't checks with a little prior damage, and the only "real" check is Seismitoad but you have to get the 30% burn chance to be all set (some run Grass Knot but I, and most others, prefer Return). Also, Slowbro dies to Z-Move, and while you can just out-predict and swap, you have to win that 50/50.

While that's already bad enough, you could just kill it with priority right? Unfortunately, no, you can't, and the best priority to kill it is Mach Punch with Hitmonlee and you need some prior damage on Barb to kill. Edit: CB Hitmonlee is not a set lol.

So, the main problem in all is that even if you play perfectly, this Pokemon will still end up sweeping. For that, we should really suspect test Barbaracle, and I'm definitely not the only one who thinks that. Get on that NU!
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#11
(double post approved by Eternally)

Ok so after some discussion in the NU room, it's clear that Barb may not be as unbeatable as it seems. Surprisingly enough, there are quite a few answers to Barbaracle, and I'm here today to showcase them, for all of you who keep on trying so hard but falling flat on the ladder.

Gastrodon
Gastrodon is one of the best answers to Barbaracle there is right now. For one, most Barbs don't run Grass Knot anymore, so it's usually safe to use Gastro as an answer. It resists Stone Edge, and, thanks to Storm Drain, it soaks up Razor Shells. The only thing that remotely threatens Gastrodon on Barb's move set is Return, which does 60% max. Gastro threatens Barbaracle with a 2HKO from Scald, as well as a chance to burn. If you so choose, you can also click Toxic, if you think they may try to switch out. Gastro can also run Clear Smog as an option to stop stat changes as well.

Seismitoad
This is for the most part the same thing as Gastrodon, but takes a little extra from Return, a little bit more viable, as well as threatening a lot harder with Earth Power. Not much else to say about this except that it's probably better to use than Gastrodon for safety's sake, but if you want recovery and you can't use Seismitoad for whatever reason, Gastrodon is a fine Pokemon of choice.

Poliwrath
Poliwrath is a Pokemon that has a few options to check Barbaracle. For one, we have a defensive Focus Blast set, which checks slightly better than the other set. For one, you take about 55% from Return, and you OHKO with Focus Blast, as well as almost 3HKO with Scald. If you manage to miss with FB, it's not over, because this set also includes Protect and Toxic, which gives you another chance, being able to take advantage of your Leftovers. The other set takes about 50% from Return, clicks Circle Throw and sends it out. The set is RestTalk.
Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Protect
- Focus Blast

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Circle Throw
- Rest
- Sleep Talk


Ferroseed
I didn't want to include this Pokemon since Xatu just switches in and negates it, but it's still a viable Barbaracle check, and even manages to counter. Barbaracle can't touch this, doing absolutely 0, and then Bullet Seed OHKOs back. So, this is pretty much the best Barb answer there is, but it's very unviable because of Xatu's existence.

Pyukumuku
This Pokemon is really bad outside of stall, but on stall, it stops Barb from sweeping, thanks to Unaware. It clicks Toxic, stalls you out, and bye-bye Barb. Not much else to explain here.

So, all in all, there are quite a few Barbaracle answers under the surface, and even though 4/5 of them are usually bad, they do exist, and should be brought up in the conversation.

Z+V
Allstar
rhydonphilip
Eternally (ferroseed lol)
Yui.
neomn (ProtToxic Poliwrath)
PursuitOfHappiny

If I missed anyone, lmk, I always love to give credit :D
 
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#12
Because of the rising talk about Barbaracle: https://pastebin.com/20dymLjj
I made this pastbin some time ago because of the rising ask people had for answeres to barb and to point out why you shouldn't rely on scarf delphox to check barb aka why you should run/can afford to run jolly barb.

Contrary to what you might assume from how many things are listed as ''shaky'' and some less effective things down the list, most of the metagame relevant defensive answeres are pushed there because you are required to have the Z-stone edge lured. I did honestly make a full post about how Z-move improved set up sweepers into a high advantaging possition forcing the opponant to make a disfavored lure to sack something in order to check the set up threat better(often it's even better to anticipate that with barb as they can't keep sacking to your return or you setting up another time). If I were to be honest, that's my boon with Z-moves even though I like how they shook up the way the game previously was.

As for the offensive answeres, lol, you got like lee and scarfers no one wants to run(pls run scarf raichu-A, it's good I swear)
One of the main playstyles the metagame would be heading no matter how you look at it is hazard stack offense, for the simple reason that we don't have many hazard removers/preventers, have 5 viable spike setters(Froslass, Garbodor, Qwilfish, Accelgor, Omastar). Having pokemon such as Scarf Emboar and other choice locked pokemon only further forcing set up pokemon, in this case Barbaracle, to stand strong.

While this list is actually realistic for a pokemon, it still heavily boils teams down. Not to say the fact people can chip damage on a number of these pokemon because, just for the heck of it, run e-belt boar + barb and see the number of defensive answeres melt like snow on the surface of Magcargo.
I did honestly prefer to see a suspect of Boar in the future because, barb needs to offensively set up and shit, you don't for boar. Boar just forces you to coin flip if the opponant has a proper team that needs scarf there or has the freedom to run e-belt. But I can still see most people's concern for Barb and how it restricts from the beauty of teambuilding(we all know ladder is everywhere shit anyway).
 
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