np: NU Stage 9 - Locked Out of Heaven

[elchupo]

While I agree with the sentiment about TR teams, I was referring to a stand alone TR user, like how Reuniclus can function in OU.

Provided you have a decent wallbreaker and put them to work early match, I could see the likes of TR Musharna, Duosion or Beheeyem being deadly late game sweepers.

 

[ryan]

Yeah, something ala OTR Reuniclus or Cofagrigus.

I think it's a neat idea. It's almost like Ludicolo as a self-setting Rain sweeper.

I feel like if you were to use it, Beheeyem would be a better bet. While they share the same base SpA of 125, Duosion really needs Eviolite if it wants to live an attack or two, so it's really difficult to run Life Orb. On the other hand, Beyheeyem has respectable bulk and can muscle past things while still taking a hit here or there before it dies. I suppose both have drawbacks though as Duosion doesn't take Life Orb recoil.

Something that I brought up in the Viability Rankings thread that I thought I would throw out here as well is Swellow. I am currently running Scolipede Hyper Offense (which is incredible fun, by the way), and Swellow is often once of my biggest contenders. With such a huge speed stat, it outspeeds all relevant unboosted threats in the tier (bar Electrode, I suppose). It OHKOs all of the speedy drop-downs with either Brave Bird or Facade. In fact, running a combination of Swellow and a few priority moves single-handedly gives my team the freedom not to run a scarfer which is a huge deal. Scarfers often kill initiative in Hyper Offense but remain necessary most of the time.

Also, I am wondering how everyone is feeling about Jynx in the meta so far? I haven't played with it yet because I am really loving my current team (read: I am too lazy to make a new team). What sets are people running with success? I have pretty much only seen Lovely Kiss NP on the ladder. Are people trying out Choice sets to any success? Sub Focus Punch? o3o

 

[DragonBorn]

Munch lax is annoying in the Nu tier i faced a resttalk set yesterday with whirlwind and bloody slam and it completly walled the team. I didnt have a fighting type so that probably helped him. But still it has to good bulk for Nu imo. But Primape and Scolipeade.........the a freakin amazing especially scarfape. Jynx apperantly also doesn't make a good specs user. I also read a comment from someone stating that choice teams will become more viable. I have been using that style to success a good bit recently winning a good 1-1 or 2 ratio with my choice teams.

 

[tennisace]

Yeah Primeape is kind of ridiculously good right now. Definitely not in a "this is broken" kinda way but in a "holy crap if you're using any other fighting-type not named CB molk breaker sawk you are doing it wrong". Primeape is like a little ball of free momentum with U-turn, which by the way NU was kind of severely lacking in good users until these drops.

Also I prefer LK + three attacks on Jynx but all these misses are pissing me off, and its at the point where the free turns i get from Jynx being in are constantly being wasted by missing Lovely Kiss / Focus Blast. I might run Wide Lens or something to bluff choice but I think without LO I miss a bunch of kos, like the 2hko on other Jynx with Psyshock.

Speaking of those two, that 95 speed tier has completely replaced base 80 as "most infuriating to ev for". I feel compelled to run max speed on Kangaskhan just because I want at least a chance at tying Jynx. The Jynx/Primeape ties are also annoying since they can both KO if they go first.

 

[Aasgier]

I do think the base 95's make the metagame less fun as it was before though, and Scolipede adds onto it. The game relies a lot more on annoying Speed Ties between the 95's, sometimes those are even the deciding factor in a match. I never had it happen before the drops (at least not with such a huge degree), but now it happens every few battles that a speed tie seriously matters.

 

[Infernis]

Well, you can always scarf something to beat the 95's, or just use a faster 'mon. There are 35 Pokemon with a higher base speed stat than 95 in NU.

The fastest one is obviously Ninjask. Expert Belt (and Life Orb) Ninjask can OHKO Primeape instantly with Aerial Ace, and takes little damage from anything but Stone Edge. Both U-Turn and X-Scissor will OHKO Jynx. Aerial Ace removes Scolipede instantly if you have stealth rock or a single layer of spikes up. Ninjask outspeeds every scarfer in the tier after one turn of Protect to get a speed boost. He even outruns all the Chlorophyll and Swift Swim sweepers. (Except Floatzel, but just wait one more turn.)

Beyond that, Ninjask can deal heavy damage to Musharna, OHKO Sawk, OHKO Gardevoir, 2HKO Skuntank, OHKO Ludicolo, OHKO Haunter with Night Slash (Or 2HKO with Aerial Ace) or even beat Misdreavus. (Physically defensive forms of Misdreavus are actually hard for Ninjask to get by, but offensive sets with little defense investment are 2HKO'd, meaning that they can't switch in easily.) Ninjask is no wallbreaker, but he beats many of the dangerous offensive Pokemon of the tier, including all three that we just got from RU. (Munchlax doesn't count.)

Ninjask@Expert Belt
Ability: Speed Boost
EV: 252 Atk / 192 Def / 60 Spe (Just enough to outspeed Scarf Zebstrika before a boost)
-Aerial Ace
-X-Scissor
-Night Slash/U-Turn
-Protect

Scarf Tauros is another fun one to use, since its Double-Edge will always KO Primeape, its Stone Edge will always KO Scolipede after any hazard damage, and it can use whichever it wants to KO Jynx. (Watch out for the Lovely Kiss on the switch, though!)

I'm not overjoyed at the speed creep of this quarter, but the new threats are hardly unstoppable. It just means that those NU Pokemon whose only redeeming qualities are their speed stats (wink wink Ninjask nudge nudge) are worth more.

 

[Punchshroom]

So you're pissed at all those misses from Jynx....think I know the "Next Best Thing" for Jynx. Hehehe....

Don't forget Swellow and Zebstrika, who will be looked at for their great speeds and RU-threat slaughtering potential. Fire-type Scarfers might also get pretty popular.

Edit: True that, but I've newfound respect for Swellow's "Misdreavus-trapping" potential, so there's that.

 

[Infernis]

Swellow has the distinct issue of being OHKO'd by Primeape's Stone Edge or Close Combat, Jynx's Ice Beam, and Scolipede's Rock Slide. While Swellow can OHKO each of them in their slower forms, each of their scarfed forms will wreck Swellow's shit. Admittedly I have not seen many Scarfed Scolipede.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I've been noticing that with the now faster speed tiers, some mons might just as well let go of the competition to use a +att or +sp.a nature and invest a little in bulk leaving just enough to outspeed the lower speed tier. As an example, both physical and special samurott can lower their speed to level of unboosted gorebyss +1 and benefit on another nature, losing only the speed tie to ludicolo who will probably keep max spe to outspeed scarf primeape. Sawk also takes small benefits from running jolly with braviary running nearly exclusively it's sub bulk up set and gardy losing in popularity next to jynx. I was wondering, has anyone had any success with running adamant over jolly or modest over timid with any other mid speed tier mons ?

 

[watashi]

in my opinion bulky samurott with adamant/modest has been better since emboar and absol moved out of the tier. running 120 hp / 196 atk or spatk / 192 spe with a boosting nature gives samurott excellent bulk for an offensive pokemon and still allows it to hit extremely hard and outpace up to gorebyss (you know since you're the one that suggested 192 speed lol)

 

[ryan]

I've been running Adamant Sawk for a while now. Pretty much, I figured Banded Sawk doesn't want to risk a speed tie with anything else in its tier that much anyways, so I would typically rather switch out against any base 85-er into something that can handle it better. Helps get the 2HKO against Alomomola after some hazard damage, so that's always nice. I don't know about anything else though. I think Jolly may fail to OHKO Regirock or another hazard setter, but I may be wrong on that.

 

[skylight]

I think Jolly may fail to OHKO Regirock or another hazard setter, but I may be wrong on that.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regirock: 338-402 (92.85 - 110.43%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO

Not even Adamant 100% OHKO's it :'( Jolly has an 81% chance of OHKOing it after rocks though, so that's something I guess?

But yeah I've run Jolly in the past, however at this point I just don't really use Sawk anymore with all the ways to "stop" offensive threats being so common (aka Weezing/Misdreavus and I've seen quite a bit of Drifblim, too) and I'd just rather use Ape because it has U-turn, which Sawk lacks (and with a Guts user like Swellow it works well if you predict right!)

Sawk is no doubt still strong but it's less relevant now with Primeape being somewhat more useful and the fact that the metagame is now faster makes it harder for Sawk to keep up. :(

 

[Infernis]

I was wondering, has anyone had any success with running adamant over jolly or modest over timid with any other mid speed tier mons ?

Absolutely. I've been running a Sawk set like this

Sawk (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Stone Edge

It misses out on passing Timid Gardevoir, but otherwise works just fine. Timid Gardevoir is waning in usage, so that's okay. (Since Gardevoir is usually not offensive anymore unless scarfed.) Expert Belt is very, very good for nailing switches with a super effective move. Weezing thinks you've been locked into Close Combat, but the Earthquake hits anyway. I honestly think this set is as useful (and competitive!) as the Choice Band set.

On the subject of Primeape and its speed dominance, I would direct you to go to view turn 33 of this battle. That right there is a Ninjask hard countering a Primeape. The only way for Ninjask to lose to it is if you switch in to Stone Edge. I keep forgetting to save the replay links for it killing Scolipedes and Jynxes and whatnot, but it's a stone cold killer.

EDIT: This battle includes my Ninjask, a Jynx, and a Scolipede. The Jynx was forced out for fear of X-Scissor/U-Turn, and the Scolipede was simply slain instantly.

 

[jake]

So we're going on two weeks with the new tier shifts. Anyone have any particularly good Pokemon they've used that they'd like to share? My favorite I've used this meta definitely has to be this man right here:

Carracosta @ Life Orb
Ability: Solid Rock
Adamant nature
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
- Shell Smash
- Stone Edge
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall

Carracosta gets a plethora of setup opportunities in the current meta, and is probably the best late-game sweeper in the meta against both offensive and defensive teams. It has a handful of "counters", which are all required to be at full HP to beat it; Gurdurr, Alomomola, Tangela, and Seismitoad are the only true outright counters. Serperior outspeeds Adamant Carracosta after a Smash (not Jolly), and can OHKO it. Of the Pokemon that are faster than Carracosta after the boost, only Floatzel, Serperior, Tauros, Eviolite Electabuzz, Miltank, Simisage, and Simipour can take a +2 Aqua Jet, and several of those can't even OHKO it in return (plus a lot of them aren't even good in this metagame).

If you get up a Shell Smash and have the opposing team even just slightly weakened (like having switched into SR before), Carracosta can cleanly sweep any time and every time. It's just SO GOOD I don't even know how people can stand not using it. Swellow check, Scolipede check, outspeeds Jynx after a boost, OHKOes Scarf Primeape 50% of the time with +2 Aqua Jet after just one round of SR damage... not to mention, most of its "counters" are doing poorly in this metagame. Carracosta is fantastic.

side note: do not use if you are mad at stone edge, rock slide doesn't cut it here

 

[vibrafoen]

Defensive Musharna is pretty irrelevant with the drops. The defensive Mushy I run is really struggling with all the u-turns and megahorns. Has anybody found a good replacement for it yet?

 

[skylight]

Weezing and Misdreavus are pretty much the better defensive Pokemon at this point. While Weezing can't switch into Jynx safely, it can hit it with Fire Blast/Flamethrower and destroy it, and can take attacks from most of NU's Pokemon and Pain Split away the damage or WoW the opposing Pokemon (and can do a lot to Ape, Scolipede, etc). Missy on the other hand can do the same but has the added bonus of not being touched by CC at all. Missy also has access to Heal Bell, which can give it a similar role to Mushy in terms of being a supportive defensive mon. Missy can also use NP and set up on opponents too which is also pretty awesome (and has access to tbolt to hit Swellow, and so does Weezing - which Musharna doesn't have). Both also have Taunt to stop Scolipede from setting up on them, too, as well as Jynx if they wanna risk it (and various other things that try to set up on them).

 

[Infernis]

I see a lot of Misdreavus around, but it's 2HKO'd by Swellow and a couple other newly important wallbreakers. Weezing is really good if you don't have a Mold Breaker Sawk or Gardevoir or some other psychic type. For physical walls, I've found Alomomola to still be as much of a bastard as it always was. Torkoal actually does pretty well against Primeape, only being 4HKO'd by Stone Edge. The lack of recovery kinda bites, but you can at least Yawn or set up stealth rock or whatever. Sawk can obliterate it with Earthquake in two turns, though.

 

[ryan]

I think the issue is that you can't really replace Musharna. Its niche in the metagame is stifled significantly by the omnipresence of Scolipede, not to mention that Primeape is U-Turning into checks/counters and Skuntank is still hanging around.

Anyways, as have been mentioned, you can use Misdreavus and Weezing to some effect; just realize that it won't have the same effect that Musharna did last stage.

Also zeb, that Carracosta set is surprisingly effective. I remember playing against you on the ladder when you were running it, and it caught me off guard and set me back a lot just in one turn. I tried out the set a few times the other day, and it was a lot better than I expected. You would think its poor speed would really hold it back, but it's really not that big of an issue due to priority Aqua Jet. And it just hits so hard!

 

[Sidfrid]

I gonna make a mention about king serp:

On the viability Ranking thread, FLCL make a proposition to move Serperior to A-rank. The thing is that serp is becoming a real nightmare for Jynx, Scolipede and Primeape. With a base 113 speed, is only outrun by max speed Jolly scolipede, in the meantime he can sub/glare his opponent reducing their utility (in primeape case) and sweeping opportunitys (in Jynx and some scolipede variants case).

The one that gives me more problems is the sub variant since I don't carry any multi-hit moves, and behind a sub he can do anything he want until it broken. Meaning Jynx and scolipede got hitted hard without dealing actual damage to serperior. I still need to find a way to deal with it in an effective way (icicle spear pilo maybe?)

 

[Infernis]

Scarf Zebstrika can slay it with Overheat, with residual damage. Scarf Rotom-S can kill it with air slash with residual damage. Ninjask OHKO's with X-Scissor, though needs some residual damage to guarantee it. Scarfzard, rare as it is, outruns it and kills it with Fire Blast/Flamethrower. Basically anything with a scarf and a super effective attack can beat it. It's practically a non-entity if you can deal enough damage fast to avoid it getting up a sub.

The problem is it setting one up while you switch to your counter, of course. Watch out for that. Slow U-Turn users, including Non-Scarf Primeape, can break the sub on the switch and let your counter in.

 

[Leafshield]

Serperior certainly has found a good place for himself in Stage 9, outspending Adamant Scolipede, Jynx, and Primeape, and guaranteeing KOs on the first two right off the bat with HP Rock. Its SubCM set is very effective, allowing it to set up multiple boosts before the opponent's Scolipede/Jynx can Megahorn/Ice Beam your sub, and clean sweeping the majority of the opponent's team.

Unfortunately, sure answers to Serperior are common and very good in the current meta. For instance, Rotom-S and Zebstrika completely shit on Serperior, doing irrecoverable damage after Stealth Rocks, crippling Serperior for the remainder of the match. But, these mons are fairly simple to cover, as Ground-Types are already good partners for Serperior, soaking up stray Electric-, Flying-, and Fire- type attacks, allowing him to do his job more effectively.

All in all, I say that Serperior is deserving of A-Rank

nevermind that, wrong thread :P

 

[vibrafoen]

Scarf Zebstrika can slay it with Overheat, with residual damage. Scarf Rotom-S can kill it with air slash with residual damage. Ninjask OHKO's with X-Scissor, though needs some residual damage to guarantee it. Scarfzard, rare as it is, outruns it and kills it with Fire Blast/Flamethrower. Basically anything with a scarf and a super effective attack can beat it. It's practically a non-entity if you can deal enough damage fast to avoid it getting up a sub.

Yeah, but it's not hard to force a switch with Serperior, like on a defensive poke. You get a sub up, you can easily get rid of a scarf user with his fair defenses.

Rotom-S is beaten if Serperior gets the sub on the switch. Not to mention Air Slash has low BP, so if you run a slightly more defensive set, it gets owned.

Zebstrika isn't really spectacular to begin with, and like I said, if you get the sub, then it doesn't stand much of a chance.

Not to mention Scarf and a super effective attack beats basically ANY setup sweeper.

 

[Infernis]

Icicle Spear Piloswine does an extraordinary job of killing Serperior, from damage calcs. Scarfipede is very rare, but does some killer damage with Megahorn. (I've only seen a couple, but it's quite a shock.) Swoobat has base 114 to beat Serperior's 113, and can do enough damage with Air Slash to prevent a sub from coming up. CB Sneasel can OHKO with Ice Punch. LO Sneasel has a good shot at doing the same. Persian can break the sub with Fake Out and then prevent a sub from coming up with either U-Turn or Return for 45-60% damage. Swellow can break the sub and then KO with Facade or Brave Bird. (Brave Bird even before Guts activates.) Serperior can't actually OHKO Swellow with HP Ice or Rock, so long as Swellow comes in at full health. (Though if it already has a sub and Calm Mind, it will.) Electrode can deal enough damage with Signal Beam to prevent a new sub after breaking the first.

Fast things, man. Fast things.

 

[jake]

Timid LO Serperior outspeeds Scolipede and 2HKOes it with HP Rock after SR damage. It also OHKOes Swellow after SR with no boost and has a 50% chance to OHKO even without SR. Leftovers Serperior is for sissies. >:(

 

[vibrafoen]

Icicle Spear Piloswine does an extraordinary job of killing Serperior, from damage calcs. Scarfipede is very rare, but does some killer damage with Megahorn. (I've only seen a couple, but it's quite a shock.) Swoobat has base 114 to beat Serperior's 113, and can do enough damage with Air Slash to prevent a sub from coming up. CB Sneasel can OHKO with Ice Punch. LO Sneasel has a good shot at doing the same. Persian can break the sub with Fake Out and then prevent a sub from coming up with either U-Turn or Return for 45-60% damage. Swellow can break the sub and then KO with Facade or Brave Bird. (Brave Bird even before Guts activates.) Serperior can't actually OHKO Swellow with HP Ice or Rock, so long as Swellow comes in at full health. (Though if it already has a sub and Calm Mind, it will.) Electrode can deal enough damage with Signal Beam to prevent a new sub after breaking the first.

While you're right about Piloswine, I doubt we'll see Scarfipede very much. It doesn't really make sense on the majority of teams, and outside of Serperior, Scarf Primeape near completely outclasses it. Persian is also a good counter, but like I said about Scarfipede, it doesn't make a lot of sense on most teams.

Your other points hold up pretty well, but sweepers from A to S rank has similar means of being countered. Every poke requires smart play to be effective. If you can manage to grab the sub BEFORE the scarf user comes in, then all the counters you listed (with the exception of Piloswine) fail to do the job you describe. Grabbing a sub isn't hard either; Serperior forces many switches from common defensive mons like Alomomola, Golurk, and Golem. In that sense, Serperior is very good at what it does.