np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

[WebBowser]

When something is banned, it cant get retested until the next gen

I'm pretty sure this is blatantly false. I know for a fact that in recent memory, the other way around happened with Deo-S (not getting banned the first time it was suspected, but was resuspected and banned).

But the reason I say this is false is that the OU council, in their own words, "can do whatever the hell they want". If they wanted to retest aegis, then I can assure you that they will do so.

Of course, this is neither here nor there...

Though I would like to see an aegis retest.

*edit*

The more I play with Giratina-O the more I come to the conclusion that not only is it not broken, its not particularly good. This isn't to say that it's an awful Pokemon, because it isn't, but I honestly find it aggressively mediocre and actually kind of hard to seriously justify using on a team.

Giratina-O hits just weakly enough to be walled by the standard balance, I'm finding. Ferrothorn, Clefable, Hippo, AV Torn-T, Mega Altaria, SpD Talonflame, Chesnaught (which is super fucking underrated) are all in that sweet spot where they just don't get 2hkoed by anything the normal Giratina-O has, ignoring SpD drops with Shadow Ball. This means that when you're putting Giratina on HO, it really struggles to do anything until the very late game, and most of the time it just kind of... sits there. I know it's bulky, spin blocks, has a good mixed attacking movepool, checks a lot of shit, and has good support options, but what exactly does it do? It's too weak to wallbreak, it has no recovery to be a set up sweeper, it can't change it's item to go scarf or anything of the sort, it kind of just... sits there.

Putting Gira-O on balance also has a lot of issues. Yes Gira-O checks a lot of things, but do to having 0 recovery, common weaknesses, and typically not being able to invest much in bulk, it's very easy to wear down. This means that while Gira-O checks a lot of things, it can't switch into many things (a lot like a scarfer). It also means that Gira-O is easy to overwhelm if you try and use it as your Keldeo/Lando/Zard-Y/Mega Metagross/Mega Lop/etc. catch all. This inability to really switch in makes it strangely mediocre on balance, which wants either Pokemon that serve a clear offensive purpose, or can switch into things that threaten the offensive core.

I'm not going to talk about stall because I haven't played any, and I'm not really a big stall user.

Honestly, I just find Gira-O hard to put on a team. Ignoring all the hype around it, most of the time, you're better off with something else. Balance is more pressured by Gengar (and it's a bit too slow for opposing offense), which I think is typically the better option for HO. Balance typically doesn't like it because its incredibly easy to pressure and wear down. I'll probably try fitting it on a bulky offense next, but so far, I'm not impressed.

I know I probably don't have much room to talk since you just got done wrecking me on ladder (**** Hippo imo), but Giratina-O is perfectly capable of investing in whatever the heck he wants. With 150 base hp, putting him at over 440 without investment, he is free to invest in his defenses, offenses, or whatever else he darn well pleases. With the right EV investments, he is perfectly capable of swapping into whatever you want him to swap into and doing stuff. Furthermore, with duel 120 offenses, he doesn't need a whole lot of investment to put in work (mine doesn't run any). While lack of reliable recovery is an issue, it can be remedied (though perhaps I overdo it a bit with duel wish support, but I swear it wins games).

Anyway, I wouldn't sign off Giratina-O yet, because as big as this topic is and as much use as he's been getting, we've just barely scratched the surface of what he's capable of.

 

[56k]

The meta actually seems well prepared to handle giratina already.

The things that people were using to combat sableye teams (fairies, heatran, charizard, keldeo, manaphy, talonflame, pinsir, kyub) really do a number on giratina as well. A given giratina set can choose to wall and counter about 1/3 of those it's supposed to "blanket check".

Whenever it switches in to do it's job of walling something, it gets chipped down into range of the other thing. For example a core of char-y/ttar/excadrill char lures in giratina and does 35% with a fire blast. This brings it into range of scarf tar or, depending on hazards, possibly excadrill iron heads. Alternatively you can just keep roping it in with charizard and hitting it for 12%rocks + 35%fireblast. Keldeo similarly does 35% with specs and manaphy just beats it if set up.

For these reasons I do not think the bulky sets are ideal. Instead it is better to play like a kyurem (but using ghost/dragon/ground coverage instead of ice/electric/ground). Naturally bulkier and defensive typing and perfect coverage, but weaker than cube and hitting less things for Super Effective. Combined with some wish support and it's a nice tank.

I'm using sylveon on my teams to soft counter giratinas/latis/dark-types as well as provide cleric support for my own giratina (who really wishes it had roost).

Since giratina is a pokemon with mixed offenses, I have been using pokemon with mixed defenses as my switch in: sableye, tangrowth, sylveon, chansey, hippowdon, and tornadus are all safe switches to see what giratina has in mind. But I usually try to go sylveon on turn1 so that the +1 +2 shadow balls don't start doing too much damage.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I must admit. At first, I didn't think this was a good idea at all. Bringing a cover legendary like Giratina-O down to OU just didn't seem all that intelligent. Giratina's combination of bulk and power seems overwhelming on paper, but after playing against a few Giratina teams and using one of my own, I'm not even convinced that Giratina is S rank worthy in OU. First off, Giratina can't run leftovers or choice scarf. This takes a little of the bulk and unpredictability out of this mon. At 90 speed, most offensive threats can outspeed it. With weaknesses to ice, ghost, fairy, dark, and dragon, Giratina really needs to be able to outspeed a lot of these offensive threats to really be effective since just about everything that outspeeds it has one of the above types as coverage or a STAB. Obviously, with Giratina's impressive 150/100/100 bulk these hits often fail to OHKO, but it rarely has the power to OHKO back and it's lack of lefties make it tough to keep healthy.

However, having Giratina O has been really nice for keeping certain Pokemon in check. Things like Keldeo, M-Metagross, Landorus (both I and T), etc have been much easier to handle. I've been loving the ability to run a spin blocker that isn't either bad or a glass canon as well. Been loving Giratina O so far! Thank you to whoever brought this up! If it had been up to me, I'd have tried to get Aegislash retested, but this seems like a more balanced or at least more fun metagame than that of a Aegislash metagame.

To be honest, Giratina-O is kind of ridiculous at this point. To start, it has people thinking about using something obscure, like Mega Audino for god's sake. Also, is this calc for real?
252+ Atk Giratina-O Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 69-82 (16.8 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO

Anyway, that is besides the point. The main thing is that Giratina-O is like many different suspects we've had before. It's like Greninja because of its great movepool and because it has no definite counters to all of its sets(Unaware clefable is a 50/50 depending on which type of defensive it is). It is like Aegislash because of its typing, and base stats. It is like Megamence because it has people thinking about obscure counters like Mega Audino.

Even if you refute one of these statements, the facts dictate that it carries traits like previous suspects. Just the fact that this is happening should be enough to not allow it in OU.

Tons of things check Giratina, so I have no idea why you'd have to run mega Audino to counter it. Stall has an iffy matchup against Giratina, but Sableye generally deals with it and Mandi I believe straight up counters it.

 

[MattyBrollic]

From playing on the suspect ladder, I've really enjoyed the OU meta with Giratina in it so far. It's stabs when fully invested pack a serious punch, for sure, but offensive sets are easily worn down as it has very few recovery options and does not even benefit much from some wish passers such as clefable, sylveon, and even defensive mega gardevoir. It is also viable defensively with its great stats and solid defensive typing, but certainly not broken as rest talk sets struggle to deal a lot of damage and can be complete taunt bait. On another note, Gira-O can fill some cool niches as it has access to defog and ghost typing which allows it to spin block. It checks many of the most threatening Mons in the tier as previously stated hundreds of times. In my opinion, Giratina-O is a fantastic addition to the OU meta game and I applaud those who were able to formulate the idea. #Giratina-OU :)

 

[Valentine]

first, i think you really have to applaud gr8astard, bloo and the rest of the council for coming up with an interesting suggestion for the metagame. this suspect really shows they are thinking outside of the box for solutions, and putting time, thought and effort into a tier most consider shit. that being said, i think that this particular suspect should have been shot down when it was a suggestion. you don't have to look too far to realize a full blown suspect is a complete waste of time. giratina-o is a lot more broken then the stuff it's coming over to try and balance out.

there are a lot of things that make giratina-o unsuitable for the overused environment. it's hard to wall, it's hard to kill, and it's hard to trap. it's above average defenses leave very little that ohkos it, which allows you to play very safely to guarantee damage in every match up. it's passable 90 base speed coupled with wow gives it the tools it needs to avoid being pursuited successfully. it's deep movepool, stabs, item, and attacking stats make it a nightmare to switch into, especially since you don't know which side of the spectrum it's coming from initially.

a lot of people are talking about how giratina-o has a lot of viable sets, but i don't even see the point of that argument. you really only need to showcase a few sets to make the argument that it's broken. i can see the standard set becoming something along the lines of

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 56 Atk (/ HP) / 252 SpA (/ Atk) / 200 Spe
Rash / Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Ball / Shadow Force
- Aura Sphere / Earthquake
- Will-O-Wisp

266ish speed gives you what you need to outpace bisharp (and random mega tyranitar), to wow before they have a chance to hit you with super effective stabs. the sucker punch mind game doesn't even exist because you can just click wow, and the best thing bisharp can do is like, night slash. that's shit. shadow balls from a max giratina-o slightly outdamage aegislash, and aura sphere is really attractive coverage that hits tyranitar, heatran, bisharp and ferrothorn. the only real appeal of draco meteor is ohkoing stuff like lando, but shadow ball+sneak do the trick anyways. dragon stab seems bad in general, since you already have ghost to spam, but draco seems especially bad since it leaves you vulnerable to stuff that sets up. the thing i'm really interested in is shadow force. we've never had a physical ghost move this powerful in the metagame, and i think this is one of giratina-o's best options. nothing on offense can really take advantage of the charge turn, the only things i can really think of would be encore sub mega lopunny, and scarf tyranitar. both of these seem pretty shitty, though, since they only force 50/50s. do you encore, or do you predict the switch? do you pursuit, or do you try to put on the crunch damage? the sand damage is nice, though, don't get me wrong.

balance teams also have trouble, because they're not exactly sure if you're specifically or physically based. sure, stuff like physically defensive hippo, lando-t, ferrothorn are annoying for the shadow force set, but not the shadow ball one. even the shadow force set can just burn them and wear them down over time. running a grass to limit leech seed doesn't seem like a bad idea to speed up the process. stall obviously has an easier time against this set, but if you run into subcm it's basically over from team preview. i feel like stall is forced to run spdef unaware clefable just to deal with that. and forget about countering gira-o, what even checks it? the first time you bring latios in on rocks, then take life orb from dracoing a switch, you're going to die from sneak the next time around. same with gengar. adamant scarf chomp ohkos, but in a metagame filled with steels and fairies trying to deal with gira, your locked attacks are easy to take advantage of. lo kye-b is admittedly not a bad option, but obviously it can be worn down a lot faster than giratina given it's weakness to rocks, no levitate, and life orb recoil. mega diancie in theory should become really popular since it's actually one of the only viable options to deal with this shit. it just seems to me like it's too easy to trade giratina-o off for 200% of your opponent's team.

oh, and twave+hex does offense the super dirty. shoutouts fren ben for that disgusting shit.

 

[NotSoClutch]

first, i think you really have to applaud gr8astard, bloo and the rest of the council for coming up with an interesting suggestion for the metagame. this suspect really shows they are thinking outside of the box for solutions, and putting time, thought and effort into a tier most consider shit. that being said, i think that this particular suspect should have been shot down when it was a suggestion. you don't have to look too far to realize a full blown suspect is a complete waste of time. giratina-o is a lot more broken then the stuff it's coming over to try and balance out.

there are a lot of things that make giratina-o unsuitable for the overused environment. it's hard to wall, it's hard to kill, and it's hard to trap. it's above average defenses leave very little that ohkos it, which allows you to play very safely to guarantee damage in every match up. it's passable 90 base speed coupled with wow gives it the tools it needs to avoid being pursuited successfully. it's deep movepool, stabs, item, and attacking stats make it a nightmare to switch into, especially since you don't know which side of the spectrum it's coming from initially.

a lot of people are talking about how giratina-o has a lot of viable sets, but i don't even see the point of that argument. you really only need to showcase a few sets to make the argument that it's broken. i can see the standard set becoming something along the lines of

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 56 Atk (/ HP) / 252 SpA (/ Atk) / 200 Spe
Rash / Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Ball / Shadow Force
- Aura Sphere / Earthquake
- Will-O-Wisp

266ish speed gives you what you need to outpace bisharp (and random mega tyranitar), to wow before they have a chance to hit you with super effective stabs. the sucker punch mind game doesn't even exist because you can just click wow, and the best thing bisharp can do is like, night slash. that's shit. shadow balls from a max giratina-o slightly outdamage aegislash, and aura sphere is really attractive coverage that hits tyranitar, heatran, bisharp and ferrothorn. the only real appeal of draco meteor is ohkoing stuff like lando, but shadow ball+sneak do the trick anyways. dragon stab seems bad in general, since you already have ghost to spam, but draco seems especially bad since it leaves you vulnerable to stuff that sets up. the thing i'm really interested in is shadow force. we've never had a physical ghost move this powerful in the metagame, and i think this is one of giratina-o's best options. nothing on offense can really take advantage of the charge turn, the only things i can really think of would be encore sub mega lopunny, and scarf tyranitar. both of these seem pretty shitty, though, since they only force 50/50s. do you encore, or do you predict the switch? do you pursuit, or do you try to put on the crunch damage?

balance teams also have trouble, because they're not exactly sure if you're specifically or physically based. sure, stuff like physically defensive hippo, lando-t, ferrothorn are annoying for the shadow force set, but not the shadow ball one. even the shadow force set can just burn them and wear them down over time. running a grass to limit leech seed doesn't seem like a bad idea to speed up the process. stall obviously has an easier time against this set, but if you run into subcm it's basically over from team preview. i feel like stall is forced to run spdef unaware clefable just to deal with that. and forget about countering gira-o, what even checks it? the first time you bring latios in on rocks, then take life orb from dracoing a switch, you're going to die from sneak the next time around. same with gengar. adamant scarf chomp ohkos, but in a metagame filled with steels and fairies trying to deal with gira, your locked attacks are easy to take advantage of. lo kye-b is admittedly not a bad option, but obviously it can be worn down a lot faster than giratina given it's weakness to rocks, no levitate, and life orb recoil. mega diancie in theory should become really popular since it's actually one of the only viable options to deal with this shit. it just seems to me like it's too easy to trade giratina-o off for 200% of your opponent's team.

oh, and twave+hex does offense the super dirty. shoutouts fren ben for that disgusting shit.

Honestly, before testing the metagame, I would have agreed with you, but Giratina has so very many viable checks in the metagame that it's barely even a top level threat. 90 speed may not be a death sentence, but when you are weak to 5 common offensive types and to two of the better Pokemon in the tier in mega Diancie and Altaria, it's not good. With prior damage it's easily worn down to the point where it can be KOed and it really has no viable way to stay healthy other than wish support (which let's be honest isn't that easy to abuse against offense). Honestly, Giratina to me is a lot like Metagross with much less offensive pressure and more support oriented movepool and a worse typing defensively. It's just not all that overwhelming. Honestly, without the ability to choose an item for Giratina O, it just becomes a solid bulky attacker with a great movepool and a few interesting niches.

 

[JoshHarmony]

My apologies, I was actually going for just-plain regular aggressiveness. :P

I had to highlight this simply because I think this was the most hilarious think I've ever read. I get what you're saying, don't get me wrong, Giratina is an absolute beast, but there's a difference between talking about Giratina-O and playing it, and I simply can't agree with you. On paper, Giratina-O looks devastating to the tier, but playing with/against it, I think it's a whole different story. It's most likely because I play Hyper O, but it has been absolutely no issue to me.
But thank you for making me lol man.

 

[zachmac]

To be honest, Giratina-O is kind of ridiculous at this point. To start, it has people thinking about using something obscure, like Mega Audino for god's sake. Also, is this calc for real?
252+ Atk Giratina-O Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Audino: 69-82 (16.8 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO

Nope.
252+ Atk Giratina-O Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 138-164 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Giratina still loses this one anyway, though.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Guys, instead of using really useful Megas like Metagross, Altaria, Sableye, etc. we should use Mega Audino that's only good property is to counter a broken mon while doing nothing else!

Thats not overcentralzing at all. The only real counter is Audino, which is funny. the rest of the fairies (besides clef probs) cant switch in for shit. Not only is being a blanket check to most of the meta (i think people are tired of hearing 2/3 so im just gonna say most lol) overcentralizing, but having a pretty sexy offensive presence is too.

I'm probably not gonna go for reqs because

a. ladder is complete cancer
b. reqs end tomorrow (2 days for some people) and i cant get reqs in a day

 

[JoshHarmony]

So I always play Hyper O. It is without a doubt my favorite playstyle. I usually get up hazards, and immediately start hitting hard.

That being said, Giratina-O has never been a problem for me. I love using mons that are usually beating Gira, I don't mind losing Pokes to secure a safe end game, and I'm usually keeping up too heavy of an offensive presence to allow for defogging or team support in general.

My play-style absolutely wrecks Gira.
I can't say that for anything/anyone else though, and I can see why Gira would be an issue. I would love to keep it because I have no issue with it and I think it's incredibly cool. Seeing as I intend to continue playing the way I do, I never will have an issue with it.

Sadly though, I will not obtain reqs, because I don't see it as fair to judge a Pokemon that I happen to so specifically have no issue with.

I will leave this though-
The pokes that I normally run giving me such ease with this meta:
Sash/LO Weavile
Modest LO Hydreigon
Scarf Kyurem-B
SD Shadow Sneak M-Gallade
Cotton Guard DD M-Altaria
BD Azu (still gets burned but does good damage)
Sash Garchomp
LO Clef
MegaZam
Sub CM Raikou
Specs/LO Starmie (sounds weird but Ice Beam hits hard especially with Analytic after a priority shadow sneak and baits Gira in threatening a rapid spin)
Mega Sharpedo
Mega Absol (especially with protect which helps scout Gira's set)
Bird Spam with Mega Pidgeot and/or Staraptor (Mega Pidg for confusion lolz and shadow sneak won't hit either of them)
Sash Haxorus
Specs Meloetta
Sash Froslass
Specs/Sash Gengar
Lucario (I normally run special with Nasty Plot and Shadow Ball)
Rain with multple ice beam users (I love Sub Waterfall Ice Punch Earthquake Mega Pert)
Fast Offensive sleepers (prevents Cro-Gira from getting the health on Rest)
Timid Sash Vivillon (Again, I love offensive sleepers)
Sash Breloom (Again, prevents Cro-Gira from getting rest health/outspeeds nearly any Cro-Gira set since Cro-Gira never invests in speed)

 

[Random Passerby]

.

Sash/LO Weavile (Obviously can't switch in. Then, Giratina can just switch out)
Modest LO Hydreigon (Aura Sphere or Dragon STAB means it can't switch in. Then, Giratina switches out)
Scarf Kyurem-B (Dragon STAB / Aura Sphere means it can't switch in )
SD Shadow Sneak M-Gallade (LOL)
Cotton Guard DD M-Altaria (Are you trolling?)
BD Azu (gets burned by WoW as Giratina switches out)
Sash Garchomp (Lead set which is unviable due to MegaEye)
LO Clef (Iron Head 2HKOes even 252HP/ 252 Def + with Rocks up)
MegaZam (Shadow Sneak OHKOes with Rocks up)
Sub CM Raikou (Can't switch in due to Draco Meteor. Also, loses to CroTina. )
Specs/LO Starmie (Specs Starmie is unviable. Can't switch in. Also, Shadow Sneak OHKOes after Rocks and one round of LO recoil)
Mega Sharpedo (Can't switch in on WoW, Draco Meteor or Aura Sphere. Giratina then switches out)
Mega Absol (Sucker Punch can't OHKO while Draco Meteor does)
Bird Spam with Mega Pidgeot and/or Staraptor (Draco Meteor OHKOes)
Sash Haxorus (can't switch in due to WoW and Draco Meteor)
Specs Meloetta (LOL)
Sash Froslass (Lead set)
Specs/Sash Gengar (Shadow Sneak OHKOes after Rocks)
Lucario (I normally run special with Nasty Plot and Shadow Ball) (Are you trolling?)
Rain with multple ice beam users (So, you are trading a few mons to take down Giratina. Not broken at all)
Fast Offensive sleepers (Can't switch in. Also, it can click Sleep Talk and OHKOes your "offensive sleeper")
Timid Sash Vivillon (Again, I love offensive sleepers) (LOL)
Sash Breloom (Giratina speed creeps Bisharp so good luck sporing it once your Sash got broken by Rocks)

Replies in bold.

Furthermore, a Pokemon having checks and counters doesn't mean it is not broken (I believe this has been stated many times). Fact is Giratina is a "low-risk, high-reward" Pokemon in the sense that there is almost no downsides in using it. Any team without Giratina will be better once you slot Giratina in. Giratina warps the metagame in the sense that if you don't have a Super Effective STAB against it, then you will have a very hard time beating it. Furthermore, Giratina can run many different sets, which allows it to pick it's own counters (and if you happen to bring in a wrong counter, you're screwed). Notice the similarity with BW2 Keldeo or ORAS Greninja here? While Giratina may not be as fast as those two, it's stats and movepool allows it to do whatever it wants effectively while also checking 2/3 of the meta. This will cause the whole OU to revolve around supporting and countering Giratina, which is unhealthy for the metagame.

To add on to my point, if HO is the only playstyle viable when we introduced Giratina into OU, then we are merely changing the trend of BO into HO and have not solved the problem at all; we have just changed it. Remember, we banned Greninja because it crushes balance and forces people to play HO or extreme stall in order to not be 6-0 by it. Now, with the tools at Giratina's disposal, it looks like Giratina can do almost the same thing as balanced struggle to KO it or switch into it. HO can whittle it down but will need to trade mons to get damage on it. While full Stall can handle most of Giratina's set, it gets demolished by CroTina (unless stall runs SpD Unaware Clefable, which can be removed with something like Gothliette).

 

[Mr. Hothead]

You know a tier is fucking shit when HO is the best playstyle.

 

[NotSoClutch]

You know a tier is fucking shit when HO is the best playstyle.

A: not necessarily
B: I'd honestly say BO is the best style of play right now
C: This metagame has been more fun and interesting than anything I've played since early XY.

 

[JoshHarmony]

Replies in bold.

Furthermore, a Pokemon having checks and counters doesn't mean it is not broken (I believe this has been stated many times). Fact is Giratina is a "low-risk, high-reward" Pokemon in the sense that there is almost no downsides in using it. Any team without Giratina will be better once you slot Giratina in. Giratina warps the metagame in the sense that if you don't have a Super Effective STAB against it, then you will have a very hard time beating it. Furthermore, Giratina can run many different sets, which allows it to pick it's own counters (and if you happen to bring in a wrong counter, you're screwed). Notice the similarity with BW2 Keldeo or ORAS Greninja here? While Giratina may not be as fast as those two, it's stats and movepool allows it to do whatever it wants effectively while also checking 2/3 of the meta. This will cause the whole OU to revolve around supporting and countering Giratina, which is unhealthy for the metagame.

To add on to my point, if HO is the only playstyle viable when we introduced Giratina into OU, then we are merely changing the trend of BO into HO and have not solved the problem at all; we have just changed it. Remember, we banned Greninja because it crushes balance and forces people to play HO or extreme stall in order to not be 6-0 by it. Now, with the tools at Giratina's disposal, it looks like Giratina can do almost the same thing as balanced struggle to KO it or switch into it. HO can whittle it down but will need to trade mons to get damage on it. While full Stall can handle most of Giratina's set, it gets demolished by CroTina (unless stall runs SpD Unaware Clefable, which can be removed with something like Gothliette).

I think you totally missed what I said. I won't be voting simply because I don't see Gira as an issue but I feel like this is a very ME specific sort of thing, and all of those things work for me for reasons you clearly ignored in bold.

As I said, I play Hyper Offense. I don't counter things, I attack things.

And all of the sets are very viable, and have been used and tested fully by myself and I find them to my liking. I'm sorry you don't like them but I see them fit to use.

I'm also sorry that an underused set translates to unviable for you btw. Your teambuilding must be rather sad and limited. I guess I'm also expecting a lot from someone that thinks cotton guard dd m-altaria is a joke.

At no point did I say, "Let's keep Gira" and you replied as if I was recommending Gira for C rank. You need to relax friend. Take deep soothing breaths. Try chamomile tea, I highly recommend it.

 

[Wobbuffet0]

I like the idea of bringing down some Ubers to Ou to Balance the tier. However, I have found it can be difficult to KO Giratina sometimes. The next step should be to bring down something rarely used like Arceus Ice to help keep both Giratina in check as well as those previously mentioned threats like Landorus I, Serperior, and maybe some other offensive dragons can be checked by Arceus Ice. It would really freshen up the tier.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

A: not necessarily
B: I'd honestly say BO is the best style of play right now
C: This metagame has been more fun and interesting than anything I've played since early XY.

Dude seriously i was drinking Pepsi and i spit it out on my screen

A. Yes. HO honestly has the most wincons against Giratina (MDiancie, MAlt, Dragons, Gengar (mind the Shadow Sneak) etc) while BO probably has a decent amount of checks, but usually they cant do a lot back without setting up. Example, Clefable, which cant even switch into an Iron Tail.

B. Definetly not. Its second best however. With HO getting more popular due to its high amount of answers to that broken bitch G-O, and its noobish strategy of just setting up rocks and going ham af on the other team really pays off too. Also G-O forms amazingly with HO Cores, and G-O is like the shit rn.

C. Didnt early XY have shit like mluke in it? I wasnt here in early XY, but i heard it was probably the shittiest part of XY (which was honestly p good).

I like the idea of bringing down some Ubers to Ou to Balance the tier. However, I have found it can be difficult to KO Giratina sometimes. The next step should be to bring down something rarely used like Arceus Ice to help keep both Giratina in check as well as those previously mentioned threats like Landorus I, Serperior, and maybe some other offensive dragons can be checked by Arceus Ice. It would really freshen up the tier.

Sorry im not huge on the factor that we need to bring a broken offensive Rocks/Defogger and sits on 120 flawless stats. Even with a shitty defensive typing, it also has a STAB base 100 move (stronger than Ice Beam) and has basically the same bulk as Cresselia. Its a supportive and offensive monster, dont bring that shit down. G-O is probably not gonna be OU because its overcentralizing and for some damn reason if it is, I quit OU and im going to VGC.

 

[GaryTheGengar]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-221946547

creme of the crop, you won't find a better battle than this. expert vs master. perfect summary of the metagame.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Dude seriously i was drinking Pepsi and i spit it out on my screen

A. Yes. HO honestly has the most wincons against Giratina (MDiancie, MAlt, Dragons, Gengar (mind the Shadow Sneak) etc) while BO probably has a decent amount of checks, but usually they cant do a lot back without setting up. Example, Clefable, which cant even switch into an Iron Tail. Not even sure what point you were trying to make here, but there are checks in every single playstyle for Giratina.

B. Definetly not. Its second best however. With HO getting more popular due to its high amount of answers to that broken bitch G-O, and its noobish strategy of just setting up rocks and going ham af on the other team really pays off too. Also G-O forms amazingly with HO Cores, and G-O is like the shit rn. Giratina makes BO even better than it already was. Yes it can help HO as well, but it's role is more limited here in comparison with it mainly acting as a spinblocker that can essentially be taken down or weakened by just about every faster threat due to its typing.

C. Didnt early XY have shit like mluke in it? I wasnt here in early XY, but i heard it was probably the shittiest part of XY (which was honestly p good). By early XY I meant before the meta got stale which is more mid X and Y than early XY. Sorry.



Sorry im not huge on the factor that we need to bring a broken offensive Rocks/Defogger and sits on 120 flawless stats. Even with a shitty defensive typing, it also has a STAB base 100 move (stronger than Ice Beam) and has basically the same bulk as Cresselia. Its a supportive and offensive monster, dont bring that shit down. G-O is probably not gonna be OU because its overcentralizing and for some damn reason if it is, I quit OU and im going to VGC. Honestly, have you tried the metagame at all yet? It's so much better than the POS metagame we've had for the past few months. Actually give G-O a chance. It's so easily worn down, but really does help check some of the ridiculously powerful Pokemon in the tier.

Replies in bold.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Replies in bold.

lets see if i remember how to quote.

Not even sure what point you were trying to make here, but there are checks in every single playstyle for Giratina.

Yea, especially Stall. Why do you think Stall is basically gone? It was fine before Giratina had to stick its nose in here, and now they got shit on. Balance really needs to whittle this thing with Fairies or Rocks to kill it, and HO can take it on more easily with pure power and SR damage. Also, I'm not saying balance sucks, but im saying HO probably got the best of this. BTW the point i was making is that HO has the most checks/counters (which i thought i stated good?)

Giratina makes BO even better than it already was. Yes it can help HO as well, but it's role is more limited here in comparison with it mainly acting as a spinblocker that can essentially be taken down or weakened by just about every faster threat due to its typing.

Why can it not act as a spinblocker in HO? What stops it? It cores well with lots of HO Mons (MMeta, Bisharp, etc.) and works as a great defogger, taking 12% to Rocks and being immune to every other setup, unlike Rapid Spinners. Its typing really isnt bad, it has good resists and as you can see its typing alone stops 2/3's of the meta at 75% health or more (maybe even less)
Its role honestly shines the most in BO i can agree, but I think HO can take on G-O the easiest. Its still good on HO too, though, walling many threats and stuff, and especially working as a nice check to Keldeo which is really annoying on HO. and yes, HO does have an element of checking and countering. If i wanted to base HO on all out assault id put Scarf Darmanitan, BandTini, Specs Keldeo, Bandorus-T, and other hard hitting mons on every team i make.

Honestly, have you tried the metagame at all yet? It's so much better than the POS metagame we've had for the past few months. Actually give G-O a chance. It's so easily worn down, but really does help check some of the ridiculously powerful Pokemon in the tier.

so youre telling me you want Arceus-I in OU? (If you're confused at all, I was responding to someone that gave an example of Arceus-I coming down here)

I did try out G-O, its really just plain broken, and its not "easily worn down" as everyone says. if you Toxic it, all you need is a Heal Bell user (PLENTY of those, in face one is in S rank) and it has no trouble with Toxic Spikes or Spikes at all.

Its a Tank with a decent speed that speedcreeps a lot of shit with Supportive capabilities and it likes to spread status. With Bulk about the same as Cresselia and much better offensive power, I cant see why we need this in our tier. We dont need a counter to anything in this tier besides Lando I. And in most cases if you want something to move down from Ubers to OU its gonna be broken. Besides, checking 2/3s of the meta is enough already.

Then again, most people want a broken checks broken metagame i guess.

anyways i dont have time to argue because i gtg to school soon.

 

[NotSoClutch]

lets see if i remember how to quote.



Yea, especially Stall. Why do you think Stall is basically gone? It was fine before Giratina had to stick its nose in here, and now they got shit on. Balance really needs to whittle this thing with Fairies or Rocks to kill it, and HO can take it on more easily with pure power and SR damage. Also, I'm not saying balance sucks, but im saying HO probably got the best of this. BTW the point i was making is that HO has the most checks/counters (which i thought i stated good?) You stated your HO point well in the next line, but not in that one. js. Stall actually doesn't have much of an issue with Giratina unless I missed something. Between Chansey, Clefable, Sableye, Chesnaught, Mandibuzz, Hippo, Gliscor, Suicune and P2 (I swear this thing is better than people give it credit for), stall generally has a way to beat Giratina. Without leftovers, Giratina is easily worn down by toxic unless running rest talk (generally too weak or only possessing a single wall-able move), so stall rarely struggles against it.


Why can it not act as a spinblocker in HO? What stops it? It cores well with lots of HO Mons (MMeta, Bisharp, etc.) and works as a great defogger, taking 12% to Rocks and being immune to every other setup, unlike Rapid Spinners. Its typing really isnt bad, it has good resists and as you can see its typing alone stops 2/3's of the meta at 75% health or more (maybe even less)
Its role honestly shines the most in BO i can agree, but I think HO can take on G-O the easiest. Its still good on HO too, though, walling many threats and stuff, and especially working as a nice check to Keldeo which is really annoying on HO. and yes, HO does have an element of checking and countering. If i wanted to base HO on all out assault id put Scarf Darmanitan, BandTini, Specs Keldeo, Bandorus-T, and other hard hitting mons on every team i make. I think we are both on the same page here and just misinterpreted one another, so I don't really want to spend much time on this. I said that it only really works as a spinblocker on HO. I personally don't play much HO, so I could be wrong. That's just what I've been seeing so far.



so youre telling me you want Arceus-I in OU?
I'm not against Arceus I at this moment, but I'm certainly not campaigning for it in OU either.

I did try out G-O, its really just plain broken, and its not "easily worn down" as everyone says. if you Toxic it, all you need is a Heal Bell user (PLENTY of those, in face one is in S rank) and it has no trouble with Toxic Spikes or Spikes at all.

Its a Tank with a decent speed that speedcreeps a lot of shit with Supportive capabilities and it likes to spread status. With Bulk about the same as Cresselia and much better offensive power, I cant see why we need this in our tier. We dont need a counter to anything in this tier besides Lando I. And in most cases if you want something to move down from Ubers to OU its gonna be broken. Besides, checking 2/3s of the meta is enough already. The difference is that Cress can run lefties and recovery moves (making its sustain much better) and Cress's typing has fewer popular weaknesses to exploit. Giratina also can only check those 2/3rds of the meta at full health which is why I say it's easily worn down.

Then again, most people want a broken checks broken metagame i guess.
As long as the "Broken" mons are balanced among each other, I couldn't care less. If "broken checks broken" is a fair, balanced, and fun metagame then nothing is actually broken in my mind.

anyways i dont have time to argue because i gtg to school soon.

Replies in bold again. Sorry don't really want to take the time to do all the separate quoting.

 

[JoshHarmony]

Yea, especially Stall. Why do you think Stall is basically gone? It was fine before Giratina had to stick its nose in here, and now they got shit on. Balance really needs to whittle this thing with Fairies or Rocks to kill it, and HO can take it on more easily with pure power and SR damage. Also, I'm not saying balance sucks, but im saying HO probably got the best of this. BTW the point i was making is that HO has the most checks/counters (which i thought i stated good?)

I'm not arguing for Giratina-O to stay by saying this but Gira isn't the reason stall is fucked. Trapping (specifically Gothitelle) is what truly tears apart stall by dismantling cores. The hard hitting Hyper O shifted meta doesn't make matters worse to be fair, and the fact that Goth works well with Gira really hurts Stall, but Stall had its issues before Gira, and it will have its issues afterwards as well. The reason the meta shifted to Bulk O in the first place was because bulk was still looked very highly upon but stall couldn't adapt to the meta and at the end of the day neither could M-Sableye which practically became stall's mascot almost making it a common occurrence again.

If anything Gira made me make my first OU stall team in a while because it does have the ability to wall very common Hyper O mons shifting what Hyper O once was in a very unique way. I feel Hyper O now pressures defogging specifically and punishes prioritizing the removal of hazards which makes hazards even more relevant (which Gira is very respected for the removal of)

Gira also punishes Goth since goth can't trick and Gira's ghost typing can easily threaten it out when it's predicted (which trapping can be very easy to predict as long as you can recognize what your opponent will want to trap and when your opponent will view a situation as safe for Goth to come in)

That being said Gira effected my Hyper O style in no way so it effected me in no way, but hey, that's just me.

 

[talah]

I'm not arguing for Giratina-O to stay by saying this but Gira isn't the reason stall is fucked. Trapping (specifically Gothitelle) is what truly tears apart stall by dismantling cores. The hard hitting Hyper O shifted meta doesn't make matters worse to be fair, and the fact that Goth works well with Gira really hurts Stall, but Stall had its issues before Gira, and it will have its issues afterwards as well. The reason the meta shifted to Bulk O in the first place was because bulk was still looked very highly upon but stall couldn't adapt to the meta and at the end of the day neither could M-Sableye.

If anything Gira made me make my first OU stall team in a while because it does have the ability to wall very common Hyper O mons shifting what Hyper O once was in a very unique way. I feel Hyper O now pressures defogging specifically and punishes prioritizing the removal of hazards which makes hazards even more relevant (which is Gira is very respected for the removal of)

Gira also punishes Goth since goth can't trick and Gira's ghost typing can easily threaten it out when it's predicted (which trapping can be very easy to predict as long as you can recognize what your opponent will want to trap and when your opponent will view a situation as safe for Goth to come in)

That being said Gira effected my Hyper O style in no way so it effected me in no way, but hey, that's just me.

Gira is also immune to trapping because of being part ghost.

 

[NotSoClutch]

really quick spread i made and idk how well it does in practice

Giratina-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 144 HP / 196 Def / 148 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp
- Shadow Sneak
- Dragon Tail

lives cb azu play rough
bulky life orb latias draco
m-diancie moonblast
75% to live 52 atk life orb kyu-b outrage

I like the spread, but you open yourself up to Mamoswine and Bisharp with that speed which could cause issues. Maybe focus more on one side for the bulk. I don't think living a Latias draco is all that important for Giratina O as you still likely wouldn't want to risk it. I like being able to outspeed jolly Bisharp for the burn myself.

 

[JoshHarmony]

So after playing a bit of Stall on the ladder (even though most of it was just against Joey's suspect testing team) I noticed Giratina fit beautifully on stall being a pivot stall so desperately needs against trappers (Gothitelle)

I'll drop calcs if you don't believe me.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Gothitelle Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Giratina-O: 258-304 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's an uninvested attacking set

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gothitelle Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina-O: 168-198 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
INVESTED
Now maybe I just had a lucky run with the stall team I made, but there's also a chance that Gira simply shines on stall being what it needed as a bulky trapping punisher.

 

[Albacore]

Decided I'd actually make a serious post now that I've gone on the ladder and tried/faced Giratina.

First of all, I really love the fact that this suspect test exists. This experiment shows what it's like when a powerful, centralising, and yet somewhat balancing force is placed in OU. I highly recommend people try it out and see for themselves, it's really fascinating.

My answer to the question of whether or not Giratina-O is overpowered is yes. It just combines too much ridiculous offensive and defensive prowess in one package to not be. It performs very well against all playstyles: Offense can't help but give it free switches and nothing there takes a Shadow Ball well without fearing WoW. Stall has trouble against some sets more than others, the most popular set, Sub CM, having to rely on phazing and taunting to handle it. Balance is probably the worst off since it gives it tons of opportunities to come in and has a very hard time responding to it defensively, needing to rely on stuff like Mandibuzz and Unaware Clefable which are easily worn down and aren't even hard counters, the former either losing to Modest Draco or Adamant Outrage depending on investment and the latter being 2HKOed by Adamant Iron Tail. It also has an incalculable amount of sets. SubCM, Offensive CM, Specially Offensive with Defog, Physically Offensive with Defog, Mixed with Draco Meteor and Shadow Force, RestTalk Shadow Ball Wisp, SpD Burnshuffle, Phys Def Parashuffle, just too many possible sets to name, you can pretty much run whatever the hell you want on Tina and still have it work. Which makes it very difficult to respond to since you have no idea what it's going to try to do.
People often underestimate its offensive power when Griseous Orb gives it the equivalent of 154 mixed offenses on its STABs with no drawbacks (and it has excellent STABs, hitting everything relevant neutrally bar Bisharp which is barely even a check). I've also heard claims that it has 4MSS, but really, all you need is ghost STAB and a way to threaten ghost resists, either Wisp or Aura Sphere. Anything else is fair game.
It doesn't have recovery, sure, but it hits hard enough not to need it. It's a lot like Metagross or Aegi in that aspect. In fact, it's extremely similar to Aegi for obvious reasons : it spends most of its time switching in on something and just spamming Shadow Ball (or Force). Besides, it's so bulky and needs so few moves to function that RestTalk is actually pretty good on it, and enables it to consistently handle a lot of stuff.

But that's not the important question. The important question is whether or not it's good for the metagame.
Well, it makes teambuilding much, much easier, that's for sure. Teambuilding is an absolute nightmare in ORAS atm, with way too many threats to account for. On the other hand, building with Giratina is a piece of cake since it handles so many threats that you don't have to worry about.
But at the same time, the suspect metagame is already looking really stale. The most popular build on the suspect ladder appears to be Giratina+Jirachi/Metagross+Altaria/Clefable and fill the rest of the team with a counter to Talon, Altaria, Bisharp depending on the sets used, a Ghost resist, a rock setter, and a hazard stacker or a defogger if Giratina doesn't run it. And there are teams which bounce off this build by trying to break it, usually revolving around Altaria (who, btw, is an absolute monster on the suspect ladder, easily the 2nd best Pokemon behind Giratina). And anything else doesn't really work because it just gets crushed by Giratina teams, since the SFD cores it's used on pretty much handle everything there is, bar stuff specifically used to beat it.

Say what you want about ORAS, at least it evolved, and still is evolving as we speak. I can't really see the suspect metagame going beyond Giratina vs Anti-Giratina.
Personally, I much prefer a metagame where there are a lot of threats that are hard to account for than a completely static one where only a limited number of Pokemon and playstyles are viable. So what if teambuilding is hard? There can't be a magic formula for making a good team that won't become outdated without the metagame being boring as hell as result. And though you may find Giratina fun and refreshing now, after a month of seeing it everywhere I can guarantee you will be sick of it to the bone.