np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

[XMegaBeedrillX]

The difference between heatran and aegi is that heatran doesn't overcentralize the metagame and can't fit on to any team. Aegislash on the contrary can and does.

Elaborate more, Why does gardevoir run focus blast? Why does altaria run earthquake (besides gross)? why does scizor run superpower? Why does serperior run hidden power ground? Why does pidgeot sometimes carry HP ground? Why does latios sometimes run EQ? Why does charizard run focus blast/EQ? Why does diancie run earth power? Why does kyurem-b run earth power?

These are moves run specifically to try and counter heatran, saying aegislash is centralizing and forcing pokemon to run suboptimal sets is pretty inaccurate when in reality we see a similar trend with heatran, making players run random lure and coverage moves.

Not quite. Heatran actually does fit into a wide variety of teams and playstyles and does centralize the metagame to an extent. HOWEVER, Heatran actually has hard counters. Things like bulky waters, Keldeo, EQ zard-x, Gliscor, most other EQ and fighting STAB users (barring lava plume burn), Zard-Y, Conkeldurr, EQ Megasaur, and certain sets of the lati twins can easily swap into heatran and threaten it out.

Now how many things can swap into aegi and threaten him out period, let alone easily? I've seen mandi, mega pidgot, m-zard-y, and maybe bisharp and m-lop if you're lucky.

Bulky waters and keldeo are still bothered by lure powerherb solarbeam, they're still checks. Toxic can mess with certain waters too. Zard is forced to run EQ and heatran can have air balloon or even earth power/roar to shut down zard while it pops. Gliscor can be bonked by HP ice (like aegislash too). Conkeldurr can't take fire blast scarftran (or specs). Again, air balloon for venasaur. Latis.... ok I guess, but this is only if they are running a lure set with EQ (again air balloon)

252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 220-261 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 187-222 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 146-174 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

EDIT: I'll correct myself on gardevoir running focus blast as it hits ferrothorn and skarmory too.

 

[MZ]

Elaborate more, Why does gardevoir run focus blast? Why does altaria run earthquake (besides gross)? why does scizor run superpower? Why does serperior run hidden power ground? Why does pidgeot sometimes carry HP ground? Why does latios sometimes run EQ? Why does charizard run focus blast/EQ? Why does diancie run earth power? Why does kyurem-b run earth power?

These are moves run specifically to try and counter heatran, saying aegislash is centralizing and forcing pokemon to run suboptimal sets is pretty inaccurate when in reality we see a similar trend with heatran, making players run random lure and coverage moves.



Bulky waters and keldeo are still bothered by lure powerherb solarbeam, they're still checks. Toxic can mess with certain waters too. Zard is forced to run EQ and heatran can have air balloon or even earth power/roar to shut down zard while it pops. Gliscor can be bonked by HP ice (like aegislash too). Conkeldurr can't take fire blast scarftran (or specs), again, air balloon for venasaur, latis ok I guess, but this is only if they are running a lure set with EQ (again air balloon)

252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 220-261 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 187-222 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 146-174 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 136-162 (38.7 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So conkeldurr can counter heatran assuming it has the correct set, but falls with prior damage making it shaky since it has no recovery outside of drain punch

 

[ViperSoss]

Elaborate more, Why does gardevoir run focus blast? Why does altaria run earthquake (besides gross)? why does scizor run superpower? Why does serperior run hidden power ground? Why does pidgeot sometimes carry HP ground? Why does latios sometimes run EQ? Why does charizard run focus blast/EQ? Why does diancie run earth power? Why does kyurem-b run earth power?

These are moves run specifically to try and counter heatran, saying aegislash is centralizing and forcing pokemon to run suboptimal sets is pretty inaccurate when in reality we see a similar trend with heatran, making players run random lure and coverage moves.

Bulky waters and keldeo are still bothered by lure powerherb solarbeam, they're still checks. Toxic can mess with certain waters too. Zard is forced to run EQ and heatran can have air balloon or even earth power/roar to shut down zard while it pops. Gliscor can be bonked by HP ice (like aegislash too). Conkeldurr can't take fire blast scarftran (or specs). Again, air balloon for venasaur. Latis.... ok I guess, but this is only if they are running a lure set with EQ (again air balloon)

I don't know why Heatran and Aegislash are being compared here aside from the two having great typings coupled with good bulk. Heatran can use moves like toxic and solarbeam to get past Water types, but it still gets annihilated by many Fighting and Ground types. It doesn't have base 150 in both offensive stats, and also doesn't have a variant of protect that lets it BS itself through physical attackers. A lot of the Pokemon mentioned above get to choose what checks them or run those moves for multiple pokemon (Altaria runs eq or fire blast to choose getting walled by Heatran or other Steels, same with Diancie, Kyurem's EP is also there for rotom-w and Electrics, Serperior chooses what it wants to beat with its choice of HP type, Superpower lets Scizor also KO Chansey, Tyranitar, and Mega Lopunny, Pidgeot has a pretty shallow movepool, Latios can also run Tbolt, HP Fire, or Roost, and Charizards can run roost for better longevity, etc.)

Heatran isn't broken or uncounterable as it seems people are trying to argue. Also, why does it matter if Heatran has ways to get past some counters or makes pokemon run certain coverage? If it was broken or unhealthy, it'd have been suspected and banned in Gen 4.

Aegislash isn't a Pokemon that you can easily account for having a counter or hard check to by using a water or ground type; it has perfect coverage, base 150 in both attacking stats while also being bulky af, has KS to get past would-be checks and counters, and makes quite a number of pokemon much less viable. It's not as similar to Heatran as it's being made out to be.

 

[MZ]

Heatran does different things to get past counters which change its role and effectiveness, such as PH Solarbeam losing an item and Scarf losing bulk. All of these Aegislash sets are still really really good, sub/toxic, crumbler, fast SD, special, KS, no KS, whatever

 

[thesecondbest]

Adding onto that, none of those are even counters, as Sacred Sword and head smash can bop those on the switchin (head smash is surprisingly good). Like, the closest you have to a counter is probably spdef Gliscor I believe, although air balloon SD is an issue

spdef gliscor usually has knock off so it still beats you. also head smash does 50% recoil back and uninvested aegi/ only has like 260 hp so you kill yourself really quickly. they are still options, but not nearly as good as you make them sound

 

[WebBowser]

Bulky waters and keldeo are still bothered by lure powerherb solarbeam, they're still checks. Toxic can mess with certain waters too. Zard is forced to run EQ and heatran can have air balloon or even earth power/roar to shut down zard while it pops. Gliscor can be bonked by HP ice (like aegislash too). Conkeldurr can't take fire blast scarftran (or specs). Again, air balloon for venasaur. Latis.... ok I guess, but this is only if they are running a lure set with EQ (again air balloon)

252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 220-261 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 187-222 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 146-174 (45.2 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

EDIT: I'll correct myself on gardevoir running focus blast as it hits ferrothorn and skarmory too.

1. Power Herb only works once. If you mispredict and use it on anything other then a bulky water, you are utterly screwed out of both an item and a moveslot. None of aegis lure sets carry that much risk to them.

2. Remember that overheat causes heat's attack to go to -2, which lets durr win vs overheat tran (also exemplifies why overheat tran is a horrid idea). Fire blast is much more common, but even then your durr is still relatively healthy and you can swap to a more solid offensive heatran check (fire blast isn't that hard to wall, unlike shadow ball).

 

[MZ]

spdef gliscor usually has knock off so it still beats you. also head smash does 50% recoil back and uninvested aegi/ only has like 260 hp so you kill yourself really quickly. they are still options, but not nearly as good as you make them sound

Not sure what you mean about still other options. Aegislash does beat spdef gliscor with SD head smash, it's just a rare set meaning that gliscor will win most of the time, making it the closes we have to a counter I believe (unless I'm missing something). That was my only point

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

I don't know why Heatran and Aegislash are being compared here aside from the two having great typings coupled with good bulk. Heatran can use moves like toxic and solarbeam to get past Water types, but it still gets annihilated by many Fighting and Ground types. It doesn't have base 150 in both offensive stats, and also doesn't have a variant of protect that lets it BS itself through physical attackers. A lot of the Pokemon mentioned above get to choose what checks them or run those moves for multiple pokemon (Altaria runs eq or fire blast to choose getting walled by Heatran or Steels, same with Diancie, Kyurem's EP is also there for rotom-w and Electrics, Serperior chooses what it wants to beat with its choice of HP type, Superpower lets Scizor also KO Chansey, Tyranitar, and Mega Lopunny, Pidgeot has a pretty shallow movepool, Latios can also run Tbolt, HP Fire, or Roost, and Charizards can run roost for better longevity, etc.)

Heatran isn't broken or uncounterable as it seems people are trying to argue. Also, why does it matter if Heatran has counters or makes pokemon run certain coverage? If it was broken or unhealthy, it'd have been suspected and banned in Gen 4.

Aegislash isn't a Pokemon that you can easily account for having a counter or hard check to by using a water or ground type; it has perfect coverage, base 150 in both attacking stats while also being bulky af, has KS to get past would-be checks and counters, and makes quite a number of pokemon much less viable. It's not as similar to Heatran as it's being made out to be.

Heatran obviously isn't broken, it's just overcentralizing and extremely versatile, which describes aegislash as well (which honestly I can disagree on).

Also the same argument for "if heatran is scarf it loses bulk" applies to aegislash as well.
Jolly head smash loses bulk and king's shield.
Life orb loses longevity.
Sub-toxic is taunt bait and easily walled while also being lopunny and SpD gliscor fodder, and doesn't have anything to touch the blobs or magic guard clefable with. Magnet rise loses out on coverage.

The only aegislash set that is really good and can be slapped on any team is air balloon sub slash. The rest all come with opportunity cost like heatran.

1. Power Herb only works once. If you mispredict and use it on anything other then a bulky water, you are utterly screwed out of both an item and a moveslot. None of aegis lure sets carry that much risk to them.

Powerherb still does it's job in luring a water type and dealing damage to it. Rotom-W doesn't exactly have the best recovery to be switching into solarbeams. Vaporeon can, but if it isn't heal bell, than it can't do much to toxic.

252+ SpA Heatran Solar Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 272-320 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

2. Remember that overheat causes heat's attack to go to -2, which lets durr win vs overheat tran (also exemplifies why overheat tran is a horrid idea). Fire blast is much more common, but even then your durr is still relatively healthy and you can swap to a more solid offensive heatran check (fire blast isn't that hard to wall, unlike shadow ball).

So? Conkeldurr can still take the overheat, and then heatran switch out. Just like how aegislash can shadow ball a landorus, and then get's scared out. It's a one time occurrence that conkeldurr can counter heatran, in a 1v1 or 2v2 situation yes, but not in a 6v6 situation when it's a liability.

 

[MZ]

Heatran obviously isn't broken, it's just overcentralizing and extremely versatile, which describes aegislash as well (which honestly I can disagree on).

Also the same argument for "if heatran is scarf it loses bulk" applies to aegislash as well.
Jolly head smash loses bulk and king's shield.
Life orb loses longevity.
Sub-toxic is taunt bait and easily walled while also being lopunny and SpD gliscor fodder, and doesn't have anything to touch the blobs or magic guard clefable with. Magnet rise loses out on coverage.

The only aegislash set that is really good and can be slapped on any team is air balloon sub slash. The rest all come with opportunity cost like heatran.

but even with the loss of bulk you're gonna be a fantastic offensive check/counter to everything from Latios to Mega Venusaur, none of those examples disproved that. You run things like LO and Sub/toxic and jolly head smash specifically for your team, knowing their downsides, because they help you for a specific reason, and they all still do the whole blanket checking.

 

[zbr]

Heatran obviously isn't broken, it's just overcentralizing and extremely versatile, which describes aegislash as well (which honestly I can disagree on).

woah. what? heatran is overcentralizing and extremely versatile? fren. people don't have to drop an entire coverage move just for heatran. gard doesn't need to drop (coverage) for focus blast just to hit tran. a lot of mons don't need to use ground coverage but are forced to because aegi's presence single handedly means they can no longer safely run their contact coverage.

Also the same argument for "if heatran is scarf it loses bulk" applies to aegislash as well.

huh? aegislash runs scarf? is this one of those ORAS gimmicks? in any case, scarfer's main utility is to be faster and revenge (trap in the case of aegi) certain pool of threats. actually, losing bulk isn't that big of an issue because it's typing is already pseudo bulk (considering it can check and revenge big threats).

Jolly head smash loses bulk and king's shield.

it's typing is definitely already pseudo bulk and why does head smash means it loses king shield? should said aegislash be all out attacking then bulk is definitely the last thing you even care about when using that aegislash.

Life orb loses longevity.

because the aim of this aegislash set in particular is longevity. i get it.

Sub-toxic is taunt bait and easily walled while also being lopunny and SpD gliscor fodder, and doesn't have anything to touch the blobs or magic guard clefable with. Magnet rise loses out on coverage.

shadow ball is enough coverage and glis is not something you stay in on with subtox aegi anyway @@. also, standard clef set is naturally slower than aegi so it hits aegi in shield first then aegi attacks and also keep in mind that shadow ball has a good chance to drop spdef as well meaning you can't play cm -> softboiled games against aegi. so tell me who wins. bliss/chans vs aegi games are stall wars but that is ultimately it's role. it's role as subtox is to wear down threats on opposing teams so that your other mons can come and shit all over them.

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252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (im using 96+ on clef because that's more than the current meta optimized one)
0 SpA Clefable Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 88-104 (27.1 - 32%) -- 39.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

The only aegislash set that is really good and can be slapped on any team is air balloon sub slash. The rest all come with opportunity cost like heatran.

air ballon sub?! is this another gimmick??? furthermore, the idea behind aegi is that you either a) build around a certain set of it or b) slap it on after you decided the rest of the team. its much like greninja where it has a "standard" set but not all greninjas can be standard. if you opt for b, you can easily optimize aegi such that it fits onto your team without cost. yeah all aforementioned aegi sets definitely have opportunity costs when compared against other aegi sets. but when comparing species of mons in general, then the said opportunity cost dwindles a lot.

edit: now that i think about it, i might actually try scarf aegi
edit 2: i didn't see the edit you made after i typed the post ;;

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Elaborate more, Why does gardevoir run focus blast? Why does altaria run earthquake (besides gross)? why does scizor run superpower? Why does serperior run hidden power ground? Why does pidgeot sometimes carry HP ground? Why does latios sometimes run EQ? Why does charizard run focus blast/EQ? Why does diancie run earth power? Why does kyurem-b run earth power?

These are moves run specifically to try and counter heatran, saying aegislash is centralizing and forcing pokemon to run suboptimal sets is pretty inaccurate when in reality we see a similar trend with heatran, making players run random lure and coverage moves.

Altaria and Diancie run EQ/EP because steel types are the only relevant thing that can mess with Fairy STAB, which are weak to ground. Scizor runs Superpower for Heatran, as well as Ferrothorn, Magnezone, and among other things Bisharp (who M-Scizor makes a nice answer to). Charizard Y runs Focus blast because Tyranitar and Heatran two of the very few pokemon who can can handle Fire Blast spam as well as Solarbeam (but eat a crapton from Focus Blast). Kyu-B runs Earth Power partly because its movepool is as barren as the sahara, and also because it gets good coverage for things that resist Ice Beam/Dragon moves (steel types and Rotom-W). Serperior generally has the option to choose between HP Fire or Ground, that depends on the team (some don't want to risk losing the speed tie). Latios runs EQ as a lure almost solely for Heatran, I give you that; however, a LO Surf does 2HKO Heatran on the switch so EQ isn't latios's only way of dealing damage to Heatran. Zard X I also concede, however EQ is generally run in place of one of its STAB options (or Roost) and doesn't sacrifice much in terms not being able to handle things it normally would (Dragon+Fire hits most relevant things hard). These aren't 'random coverage moves', these the moves these pokemon choose compliment their STAB well, and serve to hit pokemon other than Heatran.

These cases are all different from something like Terrakion running EQ when STAB Close Combat hits almost as hard as a super effective EQ, and doesn't get add anything in terms of coverage other than hitting Aegislash.

Heatran obviously isn't broken, it's just overcentralizing and extremely versatile, which describes aegislash as well (which honestly I can disagree on).

Also the same argument for "if heatran is scarf it loses bulk" applies to aegislash as well.
Jolly head smash loses bulk and king's shield.
Life orb loses longevity.
Sub-toxic is taunt bait and easily walled while also being lopunny and SpD gliscor fodder, and doesn't have anything to touch the blobs or magic guard clefable with. Magnet rise loses out on coverage.

The only aegislash set that is really good and can be slapped on any team is air balloon sub slash. The rest all come with opportunity cost like heatran.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-114 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 97-114 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 90.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 131-155 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So, non-leftovers bulky Aegislash (Spooky plate?) is roughly as good a switchin to Latios as full out offensive, thanks to 150/150 defenses. The claim "Scarftran loses bulk" is kind of an obvious statement, but what it comes down to is that scarf Heatran loses the ability to check what Heatran normally checks more than once (or twice). Aegislash doesn't lose that ability foregoing a ton of HP investment, and while it cannot repeatedly take powerful attacks as well as the bulky sets, it can switch in more often than no bulk Heatran. The rest of the statements you make are givens, not much can be said about them other than what has been said by posters before me.

On another note, Sub-Toxic Aegislash isn't "Lopunny Fodder" unless Lopunny is Sub or Encore, and definitely isn't if Lopunny has to try breaking Aegislash's substitute (so many guessing games to be had). The Blobs also have nothing to touch Sub-Toxic Aegislash with, and since Aegislash actually has some way to damage them I'd say that in a 1v1 Aegislash would eventually win. Magnet Rise doesn't "lose out on coverage" since Ghost+Fighting is perfect neutral coverage, and Ghost+Steel isn't half bad for hitting the majority of OU either.

Lastly, the "opportunity cost" in not running an Aegislash set comes down to what your team wants/needs, so I wouldn't really consider it any more opportunity cost than Greninja running some coverage move over the other. Aegislash isn't forefeiting its ability to check a lot of the tier by running a different set unless its running LO, which probably means it isn't meant to hard switch into anything other than immunities or resisted defensive pokemon attacks.

 

[Strategywin]

Going to assume you meant People use Lopunny because Psychics disappear with Aegislash around. And the problem isn't just whether or not Lpunny checks Aegislash, it's the fact that with Aegislash around to either beat or just force out her checks, Lopunny runs trains over everything else, hence the talks of "Aegislash + 2 Aegi Checks + 3 filler" team template, with Lopunny being under filler and still offering a soft Aegi check.
Running Knock Off means Lando doesn't have the 3-move coverage he needs to pull off his boosting (RP/CM sets). And if Landorus is already dangerous enough to consider suspecting him, why not do that before bringing down something that creates a clearly mutual beneficial partnership that can break teams so easily.
And yes, Bisharp might be better as a Pursuit trapper, depending on how you define better in said context, but Aegislash does a whole lot else (defensive synergy, wallbreaking with his STABs) on top of still being a sufficient Pursuit trapper. By your logic, why would I run Skarmory when Hippowdon takes hits better as a tank (Physical or Mixed)? Because Skarmory offers other things that can make it fit better on my team, and in Aegislash's case, he fits better on almost any team than a substitute.
- You yourself just said Landorus has no hard counters, so not sure why you suddenly are using it as a sarcastic example against the Pro-Ban side.
- Talonflame still has a decent number of hard stops, and Natural Gift sets tend to be Lures since losing both its item and a moveslot is a notable hit to Talonflame's effectiveness against the Metagame on the whole.
- Exactly how many sets does Rotom have? I only know Phys, SpD, and Trick Scarf. And unlike Aegislash, who checks most of the same things and just puts in active work differently, a Scarf Rotom-W isn't going to check most of the things Phys Defensive Rotom-W checks.
Barring that, not sure where you get that all 3 of these are "as threatening as Aegi is", considering, for starters, you can't even throw them onto any team archetype and just expect them to work regardless of set (Landorus-I is outclassed defensively by Therian, Talonflame can't quite have utility and offensive presence at the same time, and Rotom is way too slow for offense). Aegislash goes on a team, it WILL put in work, it's just a matter of how you want it to.
Gardevoir doesn't run HP Rock because she's a Wallbreaker, and Talonflame is not a wall, so beating him ain't her job. However, being unable to beat a powerful defensive mon in a core IS something a Wallbreaker needs to be ready to do, hence Shadow Ball. And please explain to me what the hell Gardevoir is running Shadow Ball for besides Aegislash? Just because she has the free moveslot doesn't mean that it's put to good use for Shadow Ball over Taunt or WoW for the couple stall mons she can't just break through manually. Ghost isn't particularly good coverage because, like Dragon, it doesn't hit many types for SE damage, hence why you mostly see it as a STAB option because STAB power means you can afford neutral damage. There's one or two exceptions, like Alakazam, but that's because he can't break opposing Psychic types, which Gardevoir has little trouble with using Pixilate Hyper Voice. She is giving up that moveslot that covers literally nothing more for her besides Aegislash. At the very least Ground coverage in EQ for most Pokemon hits their STAB resists super-effectively.
Pivoting also requires Talonflame to take a hit coming in and be able to pressure the opponent into switching out. While he can do the former, the latter isn't easy with meh Bulk and a SR weakness. Come back to me when Talonflame has 60/150/150 bulk and 13 resists/immunities to go with that U-Turn.
Not seeing the flaws in their argument, but seeing them in yours.
Congratulations, you saved your Fairy/Psychic by switching. Nevermind that
A) Forcing them to switch is probably what Aegislash was trying to accomplish
B) Aegislash has a free turn to either Shadow Ball, boost on SD, put up a Sub, Toxic the switch in, etc.
The reason Aegislash eradicates Fairies and Psychics from the ladder isn't solely for killing them, but because in trying to switch them out, he gets a free turn, something you do not want to give to a mon that Versatile and powerful.
Clefable and Gliscor run different sets, but they don't ultimately change their role/effectiveness too significantly: Clefable still lacks offensive presence without boosting: whether it's Magic Guard or Unaware, or Cleric, it's not hitting too hard naturally. Gliscor is a tank and Stallbreaker, but retains vulnerability to powerful special attackers even on the special sets and just a bit of moveslot trouble with coverage on the SD set.
Heatran has roles, but similarly almost always has his own issues, namely his speed, decent number of weaknesses for his resistances, lack of recovery, and ultimate inability to break somethings like Bulky Waters without using very specific sets like Power Herb Solarbeam. Most of the traits I listed apply to Aegislash, except the last one: Aegislash's multiple sets let it beat more things, but it already handles a ridiculous number of Pokemon just by virtue of being Aegislash.

To the first part: Psychics are still viable. you cover that later but how did aegislash get that one free switch in the first place? and most psychics have a way to touch it. Gallade can sd on the ks or knock off, diance has ep, metagross has eq, etc. Most things run a way to beat steels anyway and that extends to slash, so you aren't necessarily forcing it's switch.
Knock lando is awesome to hit latis as well and i run it on my rock polish sets so i can sweep effectively. It's a good coverage move. ep knock off hp ice is pretty fantastic regardless. And if lando is broken anyway don't mention it. It's like if we bring down m-gar and rayquaza and somebody says m-gar breaks ray. That's irrelevant, since ray is going to be banned regardless.
Then i think in the next part he was probably referring to the post you claimed to refute, that said how all these other mons have the same traits as aegislash. natural gift can literally hit ANYTHING IN THE ENTIRE GAME. This is a swag move that gives talon no counters, so it's funny how you don't bring up an example. rotom isnt the same, an xmegabee post above this clarified that. and then you say a thing that makes rotom better than aegislash,

"unlike Aegislash, who checks most of the same things and just puts in active work differently, a Scarf Rotom-W isn't going to check most of the things Phys Defensive Rotom-W checks." This is a good thing for rotom lol. It allows it to check different things with different sets, one aspect that makes it more threatening than aegislash. So this point just helps antiban arguments

These mons can be put on any team. Rotom is a balance god, meaning it can also be on stall and offense. Defensive lando isn't the best, but you can run lure physical sets still. Tflame can run anything from band to sd to willo to taunt bulk up to natual gift that makes it very versatile as well. These are all fantastic comparisons that are healthy for the meta (i don't personally think lando is that good but most people think it should be banned). But anyways, to your next points:
I don't get what the whole hp rock vs shadow ball is. hp rock is bad coverage, but shadow ball makes sense to hit stuff like rachi, gross, and victini, as well as like chandy and crap. So i don't get why this point benefits ban at all, or why the person made it. Then you say that ghost isn't good coverage. Awesome, another antiban argument made by you. Then you say why eq is good coverage, which is also anti ban iirc. I do agree that tflame isn't bulky, but if you want a better aegislash comparison, heatran is as bulky and good defensively as aegislash. Then i already responded to that next part.
Finally, all the sets. clefable has two gr8 abilities, utility in knock off, a cool lo magic guard set that has offensive presence, stored power on the calm mind set or unaware on it, and probably a few more. Gliscor's most common set is probably spdef sd. It adapts to the metagame and has a better sub toxic set than aegislash. It can even run baton pass, or lefties defog (though probably a bad set.)

All in all, the heatran comparison still stands out as an awesome way to show that Aegislash wasn't broken. Heatran was on 70% of teams in gen 4 but was never banned. Things can be good and yet balanced. That's what the ORAS metagame is, and why aegislash belongs in it.

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

huh? aegislash runs scarf? is this one of those ORAS gimmicks?

In my defense, I never said aegislash is the one holding a choice scarf. (although I kinda like the idea now.....)

I was referring to heatran sacrificing bulk and longevity to go on a more offensive role (max speed instead of HP) similar to how aegislash on certain sets forego recovery (lefties) for other items and sets like jolly bisharp lure slash or fast mandibuzz killer head smash. Aegi does it's job, like heatran does it's job in removing landos and what not with unexpected coverage, while being vulnerable to other threats. They both have very flexible sets to adjust to a team's needs. When I said "scarftran" I meant the set as a whole since not too many other sets run the same EV spread, rather than aegislash preforming the same exact set.

Also the clefable vs. aegi scenario, the shadow ball drop is more of a "worse case scenario" argument. If we used a worse case argument as a justification of banning something, we would've gotten rid of several pokemon like tornadus-t for hurricane fusionhax, or metagross for random meteor boost. The SpD drop is possible yes, and breaks through clefable, but It's not the strongest counter argument to say "crit, flinch, Spd Drop, etc.." makes this mon broken or the like.

 

[pika pal]

I feel like you read my post but not the post I was quoting in response, because a lot of your statements, wrong or just subjective-but-conflicting seem to be missing a good deal of context in responding to mind.

To the first part: Psychics are still viable. you cover that later but how did aegislash get that one free switch in the first place? and most psychics have a way to touch it. Gallade can sd on the ks or knock off, diance has ep, metagross has eq, etc. Most things run a way to beat steels anyway and that extends to slash, so you aren't necessarily forcing it's switch.

The thing is, the Psychic types usually ARE the free switch for Aegislash, because he switches well into most offensive ones' STABs, and defensive ones lack the tools to deter him. Even then, the idea is that Aegislash is much better at checking and harder to check than most Psychic types in the tier.

Metagross prefers Hammer Arm over EQ for things like Ferrothorn and underspeeding Roost Skarmory, as well as having the Tough Claws boost.

Gallade HAS to have the SD when he tries to attack Aegislash. Even at neutral, he won't break him before losing himself.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 284-336 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 356-420 (109.8 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Diancie also needs to hit with EP on the switch, because no other combination of (insert move) + Earth Power will KO Aegislash before it retaliates
252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Knock lando is awesome to hit latis as well and i run it on my rock polish sets so i can sweep effectively. It's a good coverage move. ep knock off hp ice is pretty fantastic regardless. And if lando is broken anyway don't mention it. It's like if we bring down m-gar and rayquaza and somebody says m-gar breaks ray. That's irrelevant, since ray is going to be banned regardless.

He can run Knock Off, but he needs to have the Rock Polish before Latios comes in.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 370-437 (115.9 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And even then, it's giving up coverage on a sweeper set for one opponent. Optimally you should be eliminating counters before a sweep attempt.

As for why I brought Lando up, it's because the post I quoted brought it up to say "Aegislash support isn't needed for Landorus to be threatening." If Lando is here, he needs to be consider within the metagame until otherwise removed.

[/quote]

Then i think in the next part he was probably referring to the post you claimed to refute, that said how all these other mons have the same traits as aegislash. natural gift can literally hit ANYTHING IN THE ENTIRE GAME. This is a swag move that gives talon no counters, so it's funny how you don't bring up an example. rotom isnt the same, an xmegabee post above this clarified that. and then you say a thing that makes rotom better than aegislash,

Natural Gift is one use, so Talonflame needs to be really damn careful when it fire it off. If Talonflame goes Grass Natural Gift, no help against Electric Pivots exploiting like Manectric; run Fighting for T-Tar, ain't helping you get past Rotom-W or Slowbro. And my point is most teams usually will have 2 checks to Talonflame, so Natural Gift is only helping you get past one of them if you do well.

Again, the post I quoted said "Rotom has so many different sets it can run. All of these are just as threatening as Aegislash", so I refuted the point presented, that Rotom was more threatening for a variety of sets, despite having fewer than Aegislash with significantly less pressuring power.

"unlike Aegislash, who checks most of the same things and just puts in active work differently, a Scarf Rotom-W isn't going to check most of the things Phys Defensive Rotom-W checks." This is a good thing for rotom lol. It allows it to check different things with different sets, one aspect that makes it more threatening than aegislash. So this point just helps antiban arguments

Read what I said again. My point is that Aegislash in changing his sets doesn't lose the ability to check the vital threats that he does, whereas Scarf Rotom-W is a significantly worse check to Talonflame and Zard-X, for example, than Phys Defensive. Rotom-W trades off what it checks, Aegislash does not change what it checks, just how it checks them. While some sets can check things others don't cover as well, Aegislash is never going to find itself having to choose between countering Potent threat A and Potent threat B for the team by himself.

These mons can be put on any team. Rotom is a balance god, meaning it can also be on stall and offense. Defensive lando isn't the best, but you can run lure physical sets still. Tflame can run anything from band to sd to willo to taunt bulk up to natual gift that makes it very versatile as well. These are all fantastic comparisons that are healthy for the meta (i don't personally think lando is that good but most people think it should be banned). But anyways, to your next points:

Rotom-W is not powerful enough to fit on heavy offensive teams, with Manectric being preferable for an Electric type doing Voltturn thanks to intimidate and coverage.

I said Talonflame can't have Utility and offensive presence AT THE SAME TIME. WoW doesn't work for the SD set, while the SpD/BU set needs boosts to present a threat because of Talonflame's low BST. It has sets that can perform plenty of roles, but it's never going to do more than one of them well on a team at once.

And my point was that you can't just throw Lando-I onto a defensive team because he lacks tools to do well, and Lando-T does that role better, ergo Lando-I does not fit onto every team archtype the way Aegislash can.

Also, the limitations I stated are part of why they are considered (debatably in Landorus-I's case) healthy: because they have shortcomings that require smart team building to compensate for, and cannot be mindlessly thrown onto a team and still perform well.

I don't get what the whole hp rock vs shadow ball is. hp rock is bad coverage, but shadow ball makes sense to hit stuff like rachi, gross, and victini, as well as like chandy and crap. So i don't get why this point benefits ban at all, or why the person made it.

The poster brought up how Gardevoir doesn't run HP Rock to beat Talonflame but do run Shadow Ball for Aegislash because it has the moveslot. I was clarifying why Shadow ball isn't always optimal on Gardevoir, and it should certainly never be FORCED to run it.

Also minor point, but Chandelure is not relevant to Gardevoir. It needs a Scarf to outrun her, which makes him very exploitable, and
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 123-146 (47.1 - 55.9%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 169-199 (64.7 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And that's assuming you see Chandelure in the first place.

Then you say that ghost isn't good coverage. Awesome, another antiban argument made by you.

I said Ghost is not good COVERAGE, ergo not run on things that do not get STAB for it. Coverage options need to hit things SE because you're using them for things resisting your STAB options, which Focus Blast already accomplishes for Gardevoir on everything bar Aegislash and a few select targets arguably better left to a teammate. Jirachi and Metagross also don't like switching into WoW, a more common option for Gardevoir's 4th moveslot.

Aegislash makes good use of Ghost moves because it gets STAB coming off a base 150 Sp Attack with good neutral coverage, which is hard to switch into because of that power boost. Gardevoir, on the other hand, gets no such STAB buff and 95% of the time prefers to Hyper Voice a target.

Then you say why eq is good coverage, which is also anti ban iirc.

I said that EQ makes for good coverage, yes, but that doesn't mean every Pokemon WANTS to be using EQ as its coverage option if every other situation favors another option: Pinsir and Heracross would much rather be running Close Combat/Swords Dance in that slot, but nope, can't let Aegislash in for free.

I do agree that tflame isn't bulky, but if you want a better aegislash comparison, heatran is as bulky and good defensively as aegislash. Then i already responded to that next part.

Aegislash has comparable bulk, and SIGNIFICANTLY better defensive typing than Heatran, being IMMUNE to Fighting, resistant to Rock instead of neutral, no Water weakness for random Scalds, less Ground weak (so it can survive coverage EQ's) and sharing most of the relevant resistances to Grass, Bug, Fairy, Psychic, Ice, etc. Aegislash also doesn't sacrifice defensive presence/utility to make sure it can retaliate well, whereas Heatran's sets (Scarf, Balloon, SpD) all tend to give up something to manage.

Finally, all the sets. clefable has two gr8 abilities, utility in knock off, a cool lo magic guard set that has offensive presence, stored power on the calm mind set or unaware on it, and probably a few more. Gliscor's most common set is probably spdef sd. It adapts to the metagame and has a better sub toxic set than aegislash. It can even run baton pass, or lefties defog (though probably a bad set.)

Stored Power Clefable is not worth it in OU, lacking STAB. Let me put something in perspective

+6 0 SpA Clefable Stored Power (260 BP) vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 258-304 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Meanwhile, even if you got to +6, Heatran, the most common counter to Clefable anyway, can Roar you out. Stored Power does not beat anything new for Clefable, and should not be run. Unaware loses Clefable's longevity since it becomes vulnerable to passive damage and stinks at CM because of that. Clefable's offense ain't stellar either, even with LO, and if you invest in it, you realize Clefable's not that bulky uninvested. She loses something depending on how you run the set, and by extension you can't check everything that worries about Clefable with one set.

SpDef Gliscor is a valid set indeed, in fact I think it emerged DURING the Aegislash meta in XY. SubToxic is honestly a less than stellar set, and I don't think it does it better than Aegislash. For one thing, Gliscor's Special Bulk on such a set is abyssmal in combination with its typing. Second, anything not fearing EQ or Toxic doesn't care about it either, whereas Aegislash is hard to wall because of Shadow Ball's neutral coverage. And you're right that Lefties Defog is a bad set, because without Poison Heal, Gliscor is terrible in OU.

All in all, the heatran comparison still stands out as an awesome way to show that Aegislash wasn't broken. Heatran was on 70% of teams in gen 4 but was never banned. Things can be good and yet balanced. That's what the ORAS metagame is, and why aegislash belongs in it.

The Heatran comparison isn't the worst in concept, but in practice, Aegislash just proves significantly more effective than Heatran ever has been. Just because you can compare roles doesn't mean that neither is broken. Mega Mawile is like Crawdaunt or Azumarill: High BP moves with good coverage and priority to mitigate speed; however, Mawile performs so much better that it is broken whereas Crawdaunt and Azumarill are not. Similarly, Aegislash performs better than Heatran to the point that he very well could be broken.

Usage can sometimes be linked to viability, but it is never the best measure of it. Garchomp has greater usage than anything in the S-Ranks or A+ ranks, but he was in A-Viability until recently.

Things can be good and yet balanced, but that doesn't mean Aegislash is necessarily. The Metagame has to conform to his centralization, which isn't always the sign of a healthy game.

Also, the entire reason this test is happening is because ORAS is believed to be unbalanced due to match-up reliance, and Aegislash is meant to be the balancing force as a blanket check. I disagree with both the validity and the sentiment behind both of those statements, but the fact is, whatever you think of ORAS, Aegislash does not create an objectively better Metagame: If Oras is unbalanced, we're trading one broken for another; if it is balanced, Aegislash shaking up the tier is more likely to throw it off kilter again.

 

[zbr]

In my defense, I never said aegislash is the one holding a choice scarf. (although I kinda like the idea now.....)

[:

I was referring to heatran sacrificing bulk and longevity to go on a more offensive role (max speed instead of HP) similar to how aegislash on certain sets forego recovery (lefties) for other items and sets like jolly bisharp lure slash or fast mandibuzz killer head smash. Aegi does it's job, like heatran does it's job in removing landos and what not with unexpected coverage, while being vulnerable to other threats.

in pokemon, that highlighted part would mean it's a lure. aegi slash doesn't even need to act as a lure because it can cover a lot of it's threats with it's stabs alone. sacred sword, head smash and whatnot are considered standard coverages. does having head smash on an offensive set mean it is vulnerable to something else? for the case of aegi, no. all it needs is either a primary offensive ghost stab and 2/3 alternate coverages depending on your team. if your team is volt turn heavy then head smash is less necessary than sacred sword. you can still carry both on the chance that you want to play crazy offensively. but having these moves do not diminish the extensive utility that aegi brings to the table.

They both have very flexible sets to adjust to a team's needs. When I said "scarftran" I meant the set as a whole since not too many other sets run the same EV spread, rather than aegislash preforming the same exact set.

are you trying to say that both mons are extremely flexible in terms of spreads? o-o im not too sure i understand. i get it that both are flexible, but aegi outclasses heatran in certain areas because of it's dual stances (giving it a lot more offensive/defensive presence) as well as it's ghost typing (which is extremly optimal because it straight out removes one problem that heatran always had).

Also the clefable vs. aegi scenario, the shadow ball drop is more of a "worse case scenario" argument. If we used a worse case argument as a justification of banning something, we would've gotten rid of several pokemon like tornadus-t for hurricane fusionhax, or metagross for random meteor boost. The SpD drop is possible yes, and breaks through clefable, but It's not the strongest counter argument to say "crit, flinch, Spd Drop, etc.." makes this mon broken or the like.

orite first of all, the spdef drop is always a cherry on top of the cream. im not saying that aegi is bannable because it relies on winning using spdef drop from s-ball. just because one aegi set is "checked" by clef (not going to argue because this is going to end up being a prediction argument) doesn't mean that other sets of aegi can't deal with clef. im saying that aegi is bannable because it has too many options and it sustains consistency throughout all the options and we need to keep in mind that all it's consistent sets have different inconsistent answers. if we were to allow aegi back into ou, i don't see how it is going to not end up bending the meta to the point where it becomes games of "aegi + 2/3 counter + 2/3 fillers"

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

The Heatran comparison isn't the worst in concept, but in practice, Aegislash just proves significantly more effective than Heatran ever has been. Just because you can compare roles doesn't mean that neither is broken. Mega Mawile is like Crawdaunt or Azumarill: High BP moves with good coverage and priority to mitigate speed; however, Mawile performs so much better that it is broken whereas Crawdaunt and Azumarill are not. Similarly, Aegislash performs better than Heatran to the point that he very well could be broken.

Mawile's comparison with crawdaunt and azumaril seems very unfair imho. The thing that made mawile so deadly was the typing and bulk combined with intimidate and a massive movepool to bypass all checks. Mawile's priority isn't resisted by much (and what is resistant can't really touch mawile, bisharp only does so much with iron head before play rough OHKOs unboosted.) while crawdaunt is pretty much dead weight and walled completely by much faster mons like serperior and venasaur, same with azumaril. Azumaril and crawdaunt were more or less one trick ponies (or two with azumaril) in comparison to mawile who had several qualities they lacked, particularly a more spammable priority STAB that's much stronger, and a high base attack to fire it off of, and in crawdaunt's case, avoiding revenge killing. Mawile has an 80 BP priority move in comparison to their 40 and although azumaril had huge power from base 50, mawile had huge power from base 105. Heatran and aegislash share some qualities, just the situations, scenarios, and things they check are much different making them seem unparalleled.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 279-328 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 164-194 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 115-136 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 123-146 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Serperior Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 276-326 (102.9 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

To say the least, their power and typing is much mediocre in comparison to mawile's, and even then typing wasn't a huge factor since mawile 2HKO'd with resistant hits half the time as well.

i get it that both are flexible, but aegi outclasses heatran in certain areas because of it's dual stances (giving it a lot more offensive/defensive presence) as well as it's ghost typing (which is extremly optimal because it straight out removes one problem that heatran always had).

You could say heatran has the fire typing (actually just flash fire...) that covers something that aegislash is bothered by as well, with aegislash hating fire but checking fighting types while heatran is hating fighting but checking fire types.

The only thing is who has the more spammable stabs and coverage, which if we're discluding worst case scenarios (burn from lava plume), would be aegislash undeniably.

 

[pika pal]

Mawile's comparison with crawdaunt and azumaril seems very unfair imho. The thing that made mawile so deadly was the typing and bulk combined with intimidate and a massive movepool to bypass all checks. Mawile's priority isn't resisted by much (and what is resistant can't really touch mawile, bisharp only does so much with iron head before play rough OHKOs unboosted.) while crawdaunt is pretty much dead weight and walled completely by much faster mons like serperior and venasaur, same with azumaril. Azumaril and crawdaunt were more or less one trick ponies in comparison to mawile who had several qualities they lacked, particularly a more spammable priority STAB and in crawdaunt's case, avoiding revenge killing. Heatran and aegislash share these qualities, just the situations, scenarios, and things they check are much different making them seem unparalleled.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 279-328 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 164-194 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 115-136 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 123-146 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Serperior Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 276-326 (102.9 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

To say the least, their power and typing is much mediocre in comparison to mawile's, and even then typing wasn't a huge factor since mawile 2HKO'd with resistant hits half the time as well.

My point was that just because they can perform a similar role (Wallbreaker in my hasty Mawile comparison, Defensive blanket check in the Aegi v Heatran one) doesn't mean that both are balanced. Aegislash has traits over Heatran that push it over the top the same way Mawile had things over Crawdaunt: Aegislash has better typing, more bulk, better offensive presence due to its STAB coverage alone, the utility of King's Shield and a more effective movepool, and would be detriments like his low speed benefit him because of Stance Change. Aegislash also has no real definitive answer besides potentially SpD Gliscor, whereas Heatran is almost always going to have trouble with Bulky Waters for example: using a PH Lure set compromises his effectiveness versus other things, so it's not a solution, it's a mitigation.

Bulk comparison:
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 420-494 (109 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 308-366 (95 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Aegislash also has a more spammable STAB, still has decent Priority for offensive sets, better mixed potential, Boosting moves, and a significantly more dangerous degree/form of unpredictability: Aegislash's sets each have their own checks, maybe a counter, but there is no stop to Aegislash, period. I can run Slowking to cover "Heatran" or "Landorus" the Pokemon, but I can't run, say, Hippowdon to cover "Aegislash", I can run Hippowdon to cover "SD Aegislash" or Chesnaught to cover "Crumbler Aegislash".

 

[thesecondbest]

Aegislash has comparable bulk, and SIGNIFICANTLY better defensive typing than Heatran, being IMMUNE to Fighting, resistant to Rock instead of neutral, no Water weakness for random Scalds, less Ground weak (so it can survive coverage EQ's) and sharing most of the relevant resistances to Grass, Bug, Fairy, Psychic, Ice, etc. Aegislash also doesn't sacrifice defensive presence/utility to make sure it can retaliate well, whereas Heatran's sets (Scarf, Balloon, SpD) all tend to give up something to manage.

The Heatran comparison isn't the worst in concept, but in practice, Aegislash just proves significantly more effective than Heatran ever has been. Just because you can compare roles doesn't mean that neither is broken. Mega Mawile is like Crawdaunt or Azumarill: High BP moves with good coverage and priority to mitigate speed; however, Mawile performs so much better that it is broken whereas Crawdaunt and Azumarill are not. Similarly, Aegislash performs better than Heatran to the point that he very well could be broken.

Usage can sometimes be linked to viability, but it is never the best measure of it. Garchomp has greater usage than anything in the S-Ranks or A+ ranks, but he was in A-Viability until recently.

Things can be good and yet balanced, but that doesn't mean Aegislash is necessarily. The Metagame has to conform to his centralization, which isn't always the sign of a healthy game.

Also, the entire reason this test is happening is because ORAS is believed to be unbalanced due to match-up reliance, and Aegislash is meant to be the balancing force as a blanket check. I disagree with both the validity and the sentiment behind both of those statements, but the fact is, whatever you think of ORAS, Aegislash does not create an objectively better Metagame: If Oras is unbalanced, we're trading one broken for another; if it is balanced, Aegislash shaking up the tier is more likely to throw it off kilter again.

See beedrill's post for the first part, it's fighting and predominantly physical attacker check, while heatran is a fire and predominantly special attacker check. That's why it destroys clefable, while most steel types are still great check offensively, but aegi/ can't do anything once it's at +4 if it wields fire blast.
the reason mawile was broken is it has 105 attack compared to the 50 of azu, making it significantly stronger. But look here:
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
252+ SpA Aegi/-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers

Heatran is a lot stronger because of how weak of a move shadow ball is. In addition, tran is faster. So it's not even as if aegi/ is that much stronger than tran. I brought up the heatran usage thing before, and i got it from the video i showed. ask any gen 4 battler and they will probably agree that it was that good. And look at the two defensively (spdef)
0 SpA Volcanion Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 140-168 (36.3 - 43.6%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
0 SpA Volcanion Lava Plume vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Aegi/: 110-132 (34 - 40.8%) -- 41.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
It isn't that much weaker. The increase in power, about 20%, is way more than the decrease in bulk, 6%. The reason aegi/ is still better is the better typing. This comparison is supported extremely well by calcs. The defensive one you showed assumed uninvested, but I think this proves overall bst wise, heatran and aegi/ are about equal
Then for the last part I don't think it is unbalanced when aegi/ is added. But we'll see what others think, just wanted to defend my post one more time Most of the rest of it was just other random comparisons, but the heatran one, unless it is addressed by ban, can easily show that aegi/ isn't broken with it's normal crumbler set.

 

[zbr]

See beedrill's post for the first part, it's fighting and predominantly physical attacker check, while heatran is a fire and predominantly special attacker check. That's why it destroys clefable, while most steel types are still great check offensively, but aegi/ can't do anything once it's at +4 if it wields fire blast.
the reason mawile was broken is it has 105 attack compared to the 50 of azu, making it significantly stronger. But look here:
252+ SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers
252+ SpA Aegi/-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers

Heatran is a lot stronger because of how weak of a move shadow ball is. In addition, tran is faster. So it's not even as if aegi/ is that much stronger than tran. I brought up the heatran usage thing before, and i got it from the video i showed. ask any gen 4 battler and they will probably agree that it was that good. And look at the two defensively (spdef)
0 SpA Volcanion Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 140-168 (36.3 - 43.6%) -- 98.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
0 SpA Volcanion Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aegislash-Shield: 110-132 (33.9 - 40.7%) -- 41.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers
It isn't that much weaker. The increase in power, about 20%, is way more than the decrease in bulk, 8%. The reason aegi/ is still better is the better typing. This comparison is supported extremely well by calcs.
Then for the last part I don't think it is unbalanced when aegi/ is added. But we'll see what others think, just wanted to defend my post one more time Most of the rest of it was just other random comparisons, but the heatran one, unless it is addressed by ban, can easily show that aegi/ isn't broken with it's normal crumbler set.

not going to try and break up the post and explain each bit cause they are mostly just rehashing the same idea, which is that heatran is comparable to aegislash and hence aegislash is not banworthy because its normal crumbler set isn't broken. clearly, a mon must have one set that is broken for it to be ban worthy. this is not true. the idea behind aegi and it's retest is that it has the qualities of everything a blanket check needs and more. it has a strong offensive stab and it is consistently good in every set it runs. (keyword here is consistent). something doesn't have to be overpowered to be banworthy. aegi has the capability to do it's job consistently and is capable of performing all it's roles well (which aegi does so a lot more better than heatran because of the defensive typing and ability of aegi compared to heatran) and has the added side effect of causing the metagame to centalize against it and as such i dont see the metagame improving by releasing it back into OU.

 

[thesecondbest]

something doesn't have to be overpowered to be banworthy. aegi has the capability to do it's job consistently and is capable of performing all it's roles well (which aegi does so a lot more better than heatran because of the defensive typing and ability of aegi compared to heatran) and has the added side effect of causing the metagame to centalize against it and as such i dont see the metagame improving by releasing it back into OU.

all these calcs are taking the ability, and thus "720" bst into account. Heatran's ability reaffirms it's role as a check to fire types and special attackers in general. The typing, I admitted, is the only place where aegislash is better than heatran. Heatran also has the capability to run many sets. It's arguably better vs stall if you use the magma trapper set, which can demolish any defensive mon like chansey. Finally, heatran can't get burnt. It has definite advantages over aegi/, and the only thing / has is the typing. So I guess that clears up and reaffirms the heatran argument.

 

[XMegaBeedrillX]

I wouldn't say heatran can hurt stall that much. Magma storm's trapping effect goes away after awhile, and heatran lacks recovery to make it incapable of dealing with chansey, who has recovery and seismic toss for fixed damage. Toxic variations can cripple mons like mandibuzz, but a stall team is usually carrying a status healer somewhere so that it doesn't get stalled (chansey or blissey usually). Aegislash only hurts stall through direct pressure and firing off strong attacks which the stall player has to be careful of what he has, although I don't see this any more of a problem to stall when stall has the benefit of utilizing him as well giving it better matchup against HO, and even without his presence, stall is destroyed by numerous wallbreakers paired with shadow taggers.

Plus stall has answers like Amoongus, not too bad of an aegislash answer with foul play and regenerator.

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 173-204 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[thesecondbest]

I agree that the lack of recovery is annoying and a hindrance to tran, but that harms aegi/ too. I was just pointing out that trap + toxic + taunt is a p good combo to beat stall. Meanwhile, like you said, stall can deal with aegi/ decently.

 

[Norne]

Seriously... Pulling the heatran card here?

Both are useful pokemon but their role and capabilities despite overlapping on certain elements are way too different in execution, heatran it's known for it's ability to patch a fire type and fairy type weakness to an extent, while providing SR, status and taunt support/mindgames and a nice patch to flying spam and a couple speed tiers known to be used by grass and steel types, with a workeable speed to revenge kill with scarf.

Aegislash is a momentum grabbing monster the patches fairy, and fighting (flying to a small extent) abuse with just the right typing and moves to become an instant deterrent to many choice sets and good offensive presence with good neutral coverage spam plus 4 key moves.

The comparison for blanket check or patch to common threats pretty much ends here. We all know that Heatran is a reliable pokemon but it comes to a certain degree of team building constraints and it isn't as splashable on many teams as one might want without allowing it to cover the stuff one would want on its own, and while it's presence becomes a factor in wich coverage would be preferable on some pokemon he is to an extent easier to scout than aegislash on most scenarios given that it still has counters. Whereas Aegislash attributes render him with only checks, the virtue of its typing and key differences in neutral coverage plus utility allow it to gain momentum and punish plays way more than Heatran is being discussed on this argument, without becoming a one trick pony after the initial scout as Heatran tends to do.

This horse has been beaten down to the lowest pits of hell, drop the Heatran argument and focus on aegislash effect on the meta, wich cores become less viable, wich ones benefit from its presence, what key pokemon benefit from its presence and how it makes EV investment and set reliability of the current pokemon used in the game less or more viable.

Everyone got their share of experience in the ladder and should have gotten a grasp of the influence he has already.

Personally I'm on the keep it banned boat, but seeing this aegistran talk is just making me sick be for whichever side it ends up being(Not going to ridicule you but that argument benefits no one, and sways the average opinion of aegis capabilities with a big pile of fallacies), the Pokemon are played differently and deal with what's needed in different ways all together.

 

[Baharoth]

Ok i really have to address those stupid 50-50 arguments here because they are horrible.

Lets start with a few facts shall we? One statement that finds itself a lot is that Aegi causes "excessive" 50-50. Excessiv means that this happens quite often right? Like every one or two games?

Here the list of S to B- rank contact attackers in the Tier that have at least a fighting chance against Aegi not counting king shield (i.e. i am not counting Hawlucha or Pinsir because their contact moves do jack shit to Aegi even without KS)
Lopunny, Knock off Azumarill. Zard X, Knock off Scizor, Talonflame, Gyara, Knock off Gallade, Conk, Mega Medi, Weavile, Lucario running Crunch. List end.

That's a whooping 12 mons out of like 50 in the S to B- ranks. Out of these 12 Gyara and Zard X have the legitimate option of runnig EQ not just for Aegi but for Heatran/Rotom-w. It also has to be noted that Gyara, if its not running EQ will most likely run sub/taunt which makes the use of KS a bad idea/impossible. It should also be noted that bulkier Zard X spreads can easily tank a shadow ball and roost it off. So staying in with Aegi here is potential suicide. Same goes for bulky Scizor variants. Then we have Azu and Conkeldurr. Conk doesn't even care about KS because he is slower and even at -2 Knock off does like 80% (AV sets, Sheerforce just kills) to bladeform Aegi while his shadowball does ~35 back. CB Azu locked into Knock off is a similar case and BD Azu doesnt realy care about KS. Lopunny can run sub/encore to take advantage of it and without it, it shouldn't attack Aegi regardless of KS because a simple protect will hurt it just as much. -2 attack can't even compared to 50% HP. Talonflames CB and SD certainly are troubled by KS but bulk up/stall breaker sets don't give a fuck about it.

That leaves us with 4 mons that always have trouble against Aegi. 4 out of 50. 3 of them are in the B ranks, even without Aegi in the tier. No matter how you look at it your not gonna run into those mons often enough to justify using the word "excessive". So much for that.

Now for the whole 50-50 stuff itself.

If you break it down to predict the KS right or wrong, then yes, its a coin flip. But if you go by that logic every single decision you will ever make in Pokemon is a 50-50. Do i double switch or not? 50-50. Do i switch or attack? 50-50. If thats how you see the game and you don't like it then i suggest, stop playing it. If you see 50-50 based on decision theory the definition of a 50-50 goes more like: "A coin flip situation is a situation where both players are indifferent between their decisions because there is no "right" (aka one that holds higher payoffs than the other) decision to make

But fact is, things aren't that easy. First, your not playing against an RNG generator who throws a dice to decide what he will do. Your playing against humans, humans usually have a strategy they are following, they have individual play styles and behavioral patterns that can be analyzed and to an degree exploited. Also every decision you make has consequences attached to it and with those consequences there are pay offs/losses and most of the time the pay off/loss of every decision is different. Yeah you can always break it down to win or lose but the relevant point is:" How much do you lose".

Against Aegi it means that when you attack into KS your attack is cut in half. That's unfortunate but its not a big deal. As mentioned above some of the mons that have at least some reason to try and hit Aegi with a contact move will all do significant damage regardless and those that don't always have another option. Switch out. Its not like in those Pursuit trap scenarios where every choice you can make can end up with your mon beeing down. If you have a good switch in to Aegi, which you should anyway especially if your running contact attackers, you always have a save way out. If Aegi attacks, your switch in will eat it up, if not the Aegi player just lost lots of momentum. No matter what he does though, you come out on top as he is forced to switch out.

So as long as you have something to counter Aegi 50-50s are a non issue. But what if you don't? Even then there is usually a right play to make. You can throw in a half dead mon to maintain your momentum. You can bring in a check that can live one hit no matter what and so on.

Something that's also always forgotten in those arguments is the risk of using KS in the first place against mons that might have setup/status moves. If we take SD Weavile for example the Weavile user risks a -2 and a possible switch (or he just stays in and attacks once more still doing massive damage to Aegi and crippling it.). The Aegi user risks giving an +2 Weavile sweep a huge opening. Again, if you break it down to win or loss this is a 50-50 but if you take a look at the payoffs connected to the decisions its clear that there is a right decision to make for both players i.e. they are not indifferent between both decisions.

 

[Empress]

Ok i really have to address those stupid 50-50 arguments here because they are horrible.

Lets start with a few facts shall we? One statement that finds itself a lot is that Aegi causes "excessive" 50-50. Excessiv means that this happens quite often right? Like every one or two games?

Here the list of S to B- rank contact attackers in the Tier that have at least a fighting chance against Aegi not counting king shield (i.e. i am not counting Hawlucha or Pinsir because their contact moves do jack shit to Aegi even without KS)
Lopunny, Knock off Azumarill. Zard X, Knock off Scizor, Talonflame, Gyara, Knock off Gallade, Conk, Mega Medi, Weavile, Lucario running Crunch. List end.

That's a whooping 12 mons out of like 50 in the S to B- ranks. Out of these 12 Gyara and Zard X have the legitimate option of runnig EQ not just for Aegi but for Heatran/Rotom-w. It also has to be noted that Gyara, if its not running EQ will most likely run sub/taunt which makes the use of KS a bad idea/impossible. It should also be noted that bulkier Zard X spreads can easily tank a shadow ball and roost it off. So staying in with Aegi here is potential suicide. Same goes for bulky Scizor variants. Then we have Azu and Conkeldurr. Conk doesn't even care about KS because he is slower and even at -2 Knock off does like 80% (AV sets, Sheerforce just kills) to bladeform Aegi while his shadowball does ~35 back. CB Azu locked into Knock off is a similar case and BD Azu doesnt realy care about KS. Lopunny can run sub/encore to take advantage of it and without it, it shouldn't attack Aegi regardless of KS because a simple protect will hurt it just as much. -2 attack can't even compared to 50% HP. Talonflames CB and SD certainly are troubled by KS but bulk up/stall breaker sets don't give a fuck about it.

That leaves us with 4 mons that always have trouble against Aegi. 4 out of 50. 3 of them are in the B ranks, even without Aegi in the tier. No matter how you look at it your not gonna run into those mons often enough to justify using the word "excessive". So much for that.

Now for the whole 50-50 stuff itself.

If you break it down to predict the KS right or wrong, then yes, its a coin flip. But if you go by that logic every single decision you will ever make in Pokemon is a 50-50. Do i double switch or not? 50-50. Do i switch or attack? 50-50. If thats how you see the game and you don't like it then i suggest, stop playing it. If you see 50-50 based on decision theory the definition of a 50-50 goes more like: "A coin flip situation is a situation where both players are indifferent between their decisions because there is no "right" (aka one that holds higher payoffs than the other) decision to make

But fact is, things aren't that easy. First, your not playing against an RNG generator who throws a dice to decide what he will do. Your playing against humans, humans usually have a strategy they are following, they have individual play styles and behavioral patterns that can be analyzed and to an degree exploited. Also every decision you make has consequences attached to it and with those consequences there are pay offs/losses and most of the time the pay off/loss of every decision is different. Yeah you can always break it down to win or lose but the relevant point is:" How much do you lose".

Against Aegi it means that when you attack into KS your attack is cut in half. That's unfortunate but its not a big deal. As mentioned above some of the mons that have at least some reason to try and hit Aegi with a contact move will all do significant damage regardless and those that don't always have another option. Switch out. Its not like in those Pursuit trap scenarios where every choice you can make can end up with your mon beeing down. If you have a good switch in to Aegi, which you should anyway especially if your running contact attackers, you always have a save way out. If Aegi attacks, your switch in will eat it up, if not the Aegi player just lost lots of momentum. No matter what he does though, you come out on top as he is forced to switch out.

So as long as you have something to counter Aegi 50-50s are a non issue. But what if you don't? Even then there is usually a right play to make. You can throw in a half dead mon to maintain your momentum. You can bring in a check that can live one hit no matter what and so on.

Something that's also always forgotten in those arguments is the risk of using KS in the first place against mons that might have setup/status moves. If we take SD Weavile for example the Weavile user risks a -2 and a possible switch (or he just stays in and attacks once more still doing massive damage to Aegi and crippling it.). The Aegi user risks giving an +2 Weavile sweep a huge opening. Again, if you break it down to win or loss this is a 50-50 but if you take a look at the payoffs connected to the decisions its clear that there is a right decision to make for both players i.e. they are not indifferent between both decisions.

Having checks and counters does not instantly make a mon not broken. Moreover, would you REALLY keep Aegi in against Mega Charizard X? Also, "coinflip" plays are not inherently uncompetitive, but KS is a special case. Lots of good players can use prediction in several cases, but not necessarily with KS. In combination with Aegi's versatility, KS turns the plays of solid tournament players into flat-out guessing games. Guess wrong, and you get punished dearly. Such cannot be said for simple situations that require prediction. You CANNOT discount King's Shield when accounting for Aegi.