np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

[UBERPYRO]

On Trappers​

I understand why we want Shadow Tag banned.

You have a pokemon. It could be a stallbreaker. It could be simply a check to an opposing sweeper. But then the opponent has something that can trap it.
You need to use that pokemon. You need to check something, or counter something. But then the opponent predicts this and switches in their trapper, or brings it in on a death or something similar, and poof! Your pokemon is trapped, crippled, possibly KOed.
As soon as you see the trapper, you know there's no way around it, no way to prevent your pokemon from being trapped, because one mispredict and it's done. We've all been there.

This is pokemon. What I mean by that is this isn't the only case where a pokemon goes poof! and disappears. You see this all the time.
So your opponent is checking your with a Clefable. You go to Heatran as a response. The opponent CMs on the switch. You go to taunt to prevent it from boosting to a dangerous level, healing, or using something like twave.

+1 LO hp ground + SR now (offensive) Heatran is dead. That's it. There's no way to predict that. No way to prepare for that. Was there any trapping? No, it was a lure set. Same story if the opponent brings a pokemon that you can't deal with, or if you simply forget or never knew a pokemon's set, and it catches you by surprise.

Trapping is another manifestation of the same thing. The trapper comes in, something goes POP!... and that's it. The difference is that it's more reliable and more consistent than the other strategies, which is honestly a good thing from a competitive standpoint. Also, it's simply a variation for how a team chooses to eliminate counters.

So don't you see? This is no worse than similar strategies. Stall isn't "broken" with shadow tag, there are plenty of stallbreakers that aren't phased my gothitelle, including plenty of megas. Banning STag will tip the balance towards offense much worse than however stall is now (and honestly, this is an offense-based metagame as it is).

Obviously we can't rid the game of everything uncompetitive. If we want to call this phenomenon of a pokemon fainting without preparation inherently bad, then why make things worse they they could be and leave it be? Honestly, I like trappers in the metagame, I think they add a level of consistency and I don't think their inherently bad. Of course, the STag ban won't hurt all trappers, but don't ban it just because it hurts trappers, which is I guess what I'm trying to say.

This is a rough sketch of my idea, if the community thinks it's garbage then so be it. Thanks for reading, feel free to disagree.

 

[MikeDawg]

On Trappers​

I understand why we want Shadow Tag banned.

You have a pokemon. It could be a stallbreaker. It could be simply a check to an opposing sweeper. But then the opponent has something that can trap it.
You need to use that pokemon. You need to check something, or counter something. But then the opponent predicts this and switches in their trapper, or brings it in on a death or something similar, and poof! Your pokemon is trapped, crippled, possibly KOed.
As soon as you see the trapper, you know there's no way around it, no way to prevent your pokemon from being trapped, because one mispredict and it's done. We've all been there.

This is pokemon. What I mean by that is this isn't the only case where a pokemon goes poof! and disappears. You see this all the time.
So your opponent is checking your with a Clefable. You go to Heatran as a response. The opponent CMs on the switch. You go to taunt to prevent it from boosting to a dangerous level, healing, or using something like twave.

+1 LO hp ground + SR now SDef Heatran is dead. That's it. There's no way to predict that. No way to prepare for that. Was there any trapping? No, it was a lure set. Same story if the opponent brings a pokemon that you can't deal with, or if you simply forget or never knew a pokemon's set, and it catches you by surprise.

Trapping is another manifestation of the same thing. The trapper comes in, something goes POP!... and that's it. The difference is that it's more reliable and more consistent than the other strategies, which is honestly a good thing from a competitive standpoint. Also, it's simply a variation for how a team chooses to eliminate counters.

So don't you see? This is no worse than similar strategies. Stall isn't "broken" with shadow tag, there are plenty of stallbreakers that aren't phased my gothitelle, including plenty of megas. Banning STag will tip the balance towards offense much worse than however stall is now (and honestly, this is an offense-based metagame as it is).

Obviously we can't rid the game of everything uncompetitive. If we want to call this phenomenon of a pokemon fainting without preparation inherently bad, then why make things worse they they could be and leave it be? Honestly, I like trappers in the metagame, I think they add a level of consistency and I don't think their inherently bad. Of course, the STag ban won't hurt all trappers, but don't ban it just because it hurts trappers, which is I guess what I'm trying to say.

This is a rough sketch of my idea, if the community thinks it's garbage then so be it. Thanks for reading, feel free to disagree.

Trapping defensive mons with gothitelle sucks, yeah, but like you said: lures can accomplish mostly the same thing.

There is no lure that can trap+twave a mega Gardevoir or trickscarf a manaphy, eliminating literally the only wincon against your team bar hax. Stag is up for suspect primarily because of stall.

Ban goth, keep sableye. Sableye doesn't qualify as a matchup-reliant-hell-spawn when it is on every stall team (ie. not at all uncommon or niche). It is an s-ranked threat that needs to be accounted for on every team, and every stall team needs to account for sableye's checks as well. Without goth, this is absolutely possible.

 

[teamjohto]

Shadow Tag: With only 2 users of Shadow Tag in OU, and only one is the offender that instigated this suspect test. STag Gothitelle's PP Stall set is indeed a nightmare to face and completely removes choice from the opponent and renders them helpless in the most frustrating way possible. I've been burned worse by the Goth/Durant Entrainment Truant Combo which is more than a total shutdown for the opponent. I could go on but the final take home is that yes Goth is restrictive by almost completely eliminating counterplay against it.

But then there's Wobbuffet, who solely relies on STag in order to be remotely viable as his set depends on it. With a total of only 8 moves he can learn (only 5 are in any way viable), Wobb can be muscled through by most conventional means. Best case scenario he trades 1 for 1 with a countercoat against an opponent who's absolutely helpless against it (a very short list in OU) then dies. Even with STag in his arsenal as the best thing going for it, Wobb is still a mediocre choice in OU that has no effect on teambuilding and isn't all that restricting in the grand scheme of things.

I'd much rather just ban the Goth line, seeing as they are the true offenders and the source of frustration among players with STag, and keep Wobbuffet as a choice for players to have if they want it (even if it's a sub-par choice), but seeing as that's not going to happen, I'd have to agree to BAN SHADOW TAG.

Mega Sableye: In my personal opinion, M-Sableye just isn't banworthy as he's just too passive and can always be muscled through by offense. But I do see where the arguments are coming from. He restricts the use of hazards, making players focus on removing Sableye before they can set SR/spikes. and he can't be broken through by full stall teams, which I would rather place blame on the stall team for not having an answer to stallbreakers.

But I see Sableye as the almost necessary evil to at least have a solid answer to hazards and status. I'd rather have some answer against hazards instead of always having to expect SR to the point where it's just assumed as neutral for every match and every calc I make in a match, but to each their own. Can I see the argument for banning M-Sableye? of course. and I think this suspect will be good to help people make up their minds and get a feel for a meta without him and make their own decision. but for now I'm on the side of DO NOT BAN.

 

[bsu]

Here's the calcs I was too lazy to post yesterday:

252 SpA Life Orb Garchomp Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Mega Sableye: 157-187 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Mega Sableye: 121-142 (39.9 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(you win with decent damage rolls on both)

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Lum berry absorbs burn)

ah yes. suppose i am stall player filth. i will surely just leave my sableye in on a +2 chomp when i have an unaware quag chilling in the back. I personally don't believe m-sab by itself is broken, but the problem with m-sab checks is that the rest of the team (esp goth) can stop them and eliminate.
just wanted to put that out there

 

[Gary]

To me, I've never thought Shadow Tag was completely the main issue here, as Mega Sableye is a major part of the reason why Goth has been looked at so closely lately (obviously).

In my opinion, it's the combination of Goth + Mega Sableye in particular that's borked. Goth is insanely good at trapping shit that heavily pressures stall + could prevent Mega Eye from doing its job, aka keeping hazards off the field and blanket checking a ton of shit. I think both are problems by themselves, as Goth's ability to mindlessly trap so many things that pressure stall and can win so many matches on team preview alone, is complete horseshit, and needs to be dealt with immediately. Even if Mega Sableye is banned and Goth isn't, Goth is still a great teamplayer thanks to its expansive movepool, decent bulk, and feasible Special Attack. Although I don't think Goth would be as big of an issue with Mega Sableye gone, it could easily be a big issue again down the road and it's still a broken as fuck Pokemon considering how it's good enough to trap so many things successfully. If I only had to ban one thing I'd definitely give Goth the boot first and see how it works from there, but I still think Mega Sableye's traits and how it centralizes the hazard metagame so stupidly is enough to ban it on its own.

But I disagree with banning Shadow Tag as a whole. I agree it's uncompetitive and that alone could make it banworthy seeing how our goal is to try and make this game as competitive as possible, but to me the other users of Shadow Tag are just so fucking terrible and not worth using on most teams that the "uncompetitiveness" just doesn't seem to apply anymore. Goth makes STag uncompetitive because it RARELY fails at trapping what it needs to trap, + it has the traits it needs to trap so many more things successfully and efficiently than baby Goth or Wobbuffet (fuck Wynaut you can't tell me that thing would be relevant ever even if Wob was banned). There are plenty of things we could attempt to get rid of in order to try to make the game less uncompetitive, but we're not going to do that unless something is so uncompetitive that it leaves a noticeable, negative impact on the metagame (think BP clause and Swagplay). Without Goth, I just can't really see STag being relevant enough at all to leave enough of an impact on the metagame that it needs to be dealt with. Obviously with Goth banned from the ladder we should hopefully be able to see how successful Mega Sableye + trappers are without Goth, but I'm more interested in a meta without Mega Eye and Goth specifically, as there would be more of an opportunity cost to using Shadow Tag as you will be forced to use something really shitty like Gothorita or more inconsistent such as Wobbuffett (not saying Wobb sucks at trapping, but it's not like Goth where you lose on team preview just by seeing a Wob. It can still trap plenty of shit, but not nearly to the same effect as Goth. I understand with what Bludz is saying and how Wob is a lot better VS offense, but I can honestly say it's not something that you want to just slap on a ton of teams and be done with it. Goth may prefer facing fat teams over offense, but it can still fuck over offense plenty on top of guaranteeing a trap on a lot of bulky mons. Yes Wob has Encore, but it's still not crippling nearly to the same effect as Goth. I just feel Wob is easier to play around, extremely predictable (Goth isn't it can run a lot of shit even though it's not for one set in particular), and doesn't cause all these matchup issues like Goth does.

So all in all, Mega Sableye is mostly banworthy on its own in my eyes (although seeing it in a Tagless meta would be pretty cool) but Gothitelle as well, not Shadow Tag as a whole. I feel like banning those two in particular seem like the most reasonable decision because they're specifically to blame for all the problems we've been having with "Mega Sableye + Trapper" teams. I would prefer to see a meta without Goth or Mega Sableye at all to see how the meta is without either of the two worst problem mons, but most seem to want Tag as a whole to go, so I understand.

 

[AM]

We're not banning the combination of M-Sab and Goth on the same team.

Stop suggesting that for the last time.

 

[Golden009]

Why is Gothitelle even up for discussion? Yes, it's annoying when you misplay and get shadow tagged for it. Yes, Gothitelle can set up amazingly if given a chance. So? No Ban for me. Gothitelle's frustrating. It's not broken. Gothitelle's a bad PU Pokemon without Shadow Tag, and suddenly we're talking about banning it. Shadow Tag is useful, but it's not like it's this unstoppable thing that hopelessly centers the meta around it. IMO, the mystique of Gothitelle (OMG THIS SET IS LITERALLY HITLER BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT) is much larger then the reality (Oh, a Gothitelle. I should probably kill it before I sent in my walls.)

But then again, I'm bad, so what do I know.

 

[Norne]

As for MSableye, I find him to completely fine, stall has issues against wallbreakers already and sableye is no exception to the rule, to be honest against a decent team that prepared a mixed wallbreaker, Manaphy, almost any heatran set, Hoopa U, or heck analytic Starmie(true story) can break through it with amazing ease, heck on the mildly centralized end of the spectrum SD SR lum Garchomp wich was designed to ruin it isn't a bad deal given other wow users and scald ever present sting and perhaps MB Excadrill(not exactly terrible but it misses a lot of its viability) find themselves laughing at msableye that lack fake out to scout, then there is unaware cleffable, bonus points if it is a SR or Twave variant that capitalizes on the fear people have of CM magic guard softboiled sets, all of those with decent degrees of viability on every team composition.

However we have gothitrap, a user of an ability capable of removing a core mechanic and it's a steroid version of the mostly limited arena trap and magnet pull, unless an item slot is lost trying to lure it, or you double switch right 100% of the time, both are really unappealing in any real world sense.

Couple the 2 together and you get a relative free pass at abusing a decent Pokémon and most people ideas on team building as you nullify a check to a Pokemon and neuter a team win con.

In my opinion it's easy to spot the broken part of this suspect and it lies on gothitrap rather than on Msableye. I would love to be proven wrong though but I just can't see how sableye is a negative influence on its own as a support Pokémon where it often exacerbates the weaknesses of the teams it is used or outright comes with a decent degree of opportunity cost on balance.

TLDR, sablenite is fine shadow tag is lung cancer.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Hm. I only have a little experience playing against Gothitelle, and from what I've seen, it's really unhealthy. It denies your opponent the ability to make a choice, which is the entire point of competitive pokemon- To make good choices towards winning the battle. However, you can't make good choices when there's no choice to make in the first place, due to gothitelle. It Forces your opponent into a situation where they absolutely have no chance of winning, which is obviously broken. Due to my limited experience with this one, I'm gonna leave most of the arguing about it up to the rest of you, but overall I'd go with a ban of shadow tag. Edit: Referring to Golden009's post, some teams are just that- Walls. Also, you're saying the fact that a balance team can't use any of its defensive pokemon until goth is out is okay. Which it is not.

Now, Mega Sableye is a threat I'm a bit more familiar with. I've squared off against this thing more times than I can count, and I gotta say... Not really banworthy. I mean, it's still a very potent threat, but a good wallbreaker like Kyurem-B, Sylveon, Mgarde, Mlop, or Megazard Y can make short work of it. Also, Megazard X, talonflame, volcorona or essentially any sweeper Immune to burn can use it for setup bait. The only thing that I would actually consider banworthy about it is kind of an odd one for me- The fact that on the turn in Mega evolves, it has both Prankster and Magic Bounce, essentially, meaning that is can stop physical SR setters like lando-T and Garchomp 100% of the time, burning them and repelling their Hazards, but I don't think this in and of itself warrants a ban. Yes, it's annoying to get it out of the way so you can set up hazards, but it's not caving in the entire metagame, so I wouldn't ban this one.

Thanks!

 

[ssjjynx]

Why is Gothitelle even up for discussion? Yes, it's annoying when you misplay and get shadow tagged for it. Yes, Gothitelle can set up amazingly if given a chance. So? No Ban for me. Gothitelle's frustrating. It's not broken. Gothitelle's a bad PU Pokemon without Shadow Tag, and suddenly we're talking about banning it. Shadow Tag is useful, but it's not like it's this unstoppable thing that hopelessly centers the meta around it. IMO, the mystique of Gothitelle (OMG THIS SET IS LITERALLY HITLER BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT) is much larger then the reality (Oh, a Gothitelle. I should probably kill it before I sent in my walls.)

But then again, I'm bad, so what do I know.

Gothitelle isn't what is being suspected. Shadow Tag is. Shadow Tag is unhealthy for the meta because as a result of the presence of a stag mon on your team, your opponent is heavily discouraged to switch in their clefable, or chansey, or whatever other mon that can't touch goth, essentially invalidating those pokemon, and making them dead weight on a team purely because of the presence of stag on a team. You wouldn't even need to bring out your stag mon to threaten them, you'd only need it to be chilling in the back in order to discourage the use of many common walls, such as skarmory, and clefable. If being able to take out certain less offensive pokemon was all there was to it, stag wouldn't be as troublesome, but the problem is, the specific pokemon stag invalidates are pokemon that would otherwise be mandatory so as to not get taken apart by common threats such as mlop, mdiancie or whatever. Common threats always have common checks, and goth just so happens to beat 90% of common checks in the meta. That is why it is also fearsome on offence, instead of just stall. On offence, it beats the common checks to offensive threats. On stall, it beats common stallbreakers, or threats to the stall team. With just a single pokemon, you can thoughtlessly invalidate any problems your team may have, thus allowing for lazy and thoughtless teambuilding.

 

[Golden009]

Gothitelle isn't what is being suspected. Shadow Tag is. Shadow Tag is unhealthy for the meta because as a result of the presence of a stag mon on your team, your opponent is heavily discouraged to switch in their clefable, or chansey, or whatever other mon that can't touch goth, essentially invalidating those pokemon, and making them dead weight on a team purely because of the presence of stag on a team. You wouldn't even need to bring out your stag mon to threaten them, you'd only need it to be chilling in the back in order to discourage the use of many common walls, such as skarmory, and clefable. If being able to take out certain less offensive pokemon was all there was to it, stag wouldn't be as troublesome, but the problem is, the specific pokemon stag invalidates are pokemon that would otherwise be mandatory so as to not get taken apart by common threats such as mlop, mdiancie or whatever. Common threats always have common checks, and goth just so happens to beat 90% of common checks in the meta. That is why it is also fearsome on offence, instead of just stall. On offence, it beats the common checks to offensive threats. On stall, it beats common stallbreakers, or threats to the stall team. With just a single pokemon, you can thoughtlessly invalidate any problems your team may have, thus allowing for lazy and thoughtless teambuilding.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but it's not like gothitelle doesn't have checks of its own. I think that it's hard to use Goth/Wobb as a "wallbreaker" of sorts, because it's hard to switch into stuff without your opponent being prepared for it. It can "revenge kill", but what's gonna be in that Gothi can set up on and sweep? At this point, everybody knows Gothitelle's one trick. Yes, it has to be played around for some teams in some parts of the game. Welcome to Pokemon.

Gothitelle is useful, but it's not game-breaking. It sort of reminds me of one of the buzzwords being used in CAP right now: "utility counter". Gothitelle can check stuff, it can't check "90% of things", as you say, especially when people expect it. Wobbuffet isn't useful at this point, what with the power creep since its golden age. Wynaut keep Shadow Tag legal?

Also, I'm neutral on the M-Sableye discussion. I do think that we've been sort of trigger-happy with bans this gen, but at the same time, M-Sableye is a pain in the ass to deal with. However, as I've said before, "pain in the ass" does not equal "broken".

 

[EraiMHFU]

I definitely see where you're coming from, but it's not like gothitelle doesn't have checks of its own. I think that it's hard to use Goth/Wobb as a "wallbreaker" of sorts, because it's hard to switch into stuff without your opponent being prepared for it. It can "revenge kill", but what's gonna be in that Gothi can set up on and sweep? At this point, everybody knows Gothitelle's one trick. Yes, it has to be played around for some teams in some parts of the game. Welcome to Pokemon.

Gothitelle is useful, but it's not game-breaking. It sort of reminds me of one of the buzzwords being used in CAP right now: "utility counter". Gothitelle can check stuff, it can't check "90% of things", as you say, especially when people expect it. Wobbuffet isn't useful at this point, what with the power creep since its golden age. Wynaut keep Shadow Tag legal?

Also, I'm neutral on the M-Sableye discussion. I do think that we've been sort of trigger-happy with bans this gen, but at the same time, M-Sableye is a pain in the ass to deal with. However, as I've said before, "pain in the ass" does not equal "broken".

Gothithelle's job is not sweep, wallbreak nor revenge kill, is trap and remove, like Duggy back in ADV, is simple, the first thing that a stallbreaker does is usually set up, Rain in Mana's case, Goth switches into rain dance, and there's no escape, if you use TG get PP stalled and unboosted scald is piss-weak even under rain.

Shadow Tag nullifies any kind of counter play outside of Shed Shell mon + Scarf T-tar.

And Stag works outside if stall really well also, since walls will be forced to struggle and pave the way for a sweeper.

Stag is skilless, I played metas without Stag, where you actually need to be creative to remove a check for your team instead of being lazy and slaping Goth in your team.

 

[jorm201]

This is a needless complex suspect test. I've been using Goth and Mega Sab since Sab was available.
Check out my matches for reference: Pink Trap3, 4, 5

Pursuit: Most pursuits destroy Goth. A smart player will lure Goth out with a wall/cleric and double switch into Tytar, Scizor, Bisharp etc.

Knock Off: Unexpected but helpful Knock Offs ruin Goth. Examples: Clefable

U-Turn/Volt Switch/baton pass:
Sure, shadow tag makes switching impossible, but are we really going to ignore the opposite side of the switching spectrum?

The fact that U-turn and Volt Switch isn't being brought up is ridiculous. I've seen entire teams dedicated solely to hit and run tactics. How is shadow-tag/M. Sab a problem when neither can stop these moves? Why is a slower, defensive, drawn out tactic more of an issue?

I see this ban as an attempt to dissuade Stall teams.

*As a handy note, when playing versus Goth, both players should turn off Battle Animations for the turns to pass by faster.

Hyper Offence: Hyper offence and teams with three set up sweepers pummel goth/sab teams.

Mega Sableye and other Mega Pokemon: Mega Sab is a great counter to itself and Goth. Mega Sab with Snarl and Calm Mind beat both easily. Also, Mega stones can't be tricked, locking Goth into a useless move.

Wobb and the other Shadow tag users are non issues when paired with M Sab. Gothirita is only useful with evolite and Wobb isn't as versatile as GothO.

Why are we suspect testing something so random when there are mons like Hoopa-U who don't even have counters? This is a needless complex ban. Keep it simple and try to avoid needless stuff like this.

 

[Norne]

This is a needless complex suspect test. I've been using Goth and Mega Sab since Sab was available.
Check out my matches for reference: Pink Trap3, 4, 5

Pursuit: Most pursuits destroy Goth. A smart player will lure Goth out with a wall/cleric and double switch into Tytar, Scizor, Bisharp etc.

Knock Off: Unexpected but helpful Knock Offs ruin Goth. Examples: Clefable

U-Turn/Volt Switch/baton pass:
Sure, shadow tag makes switching impossible, but are we really going to ignore the opposite side of the switching spectrum?

The fact that U-turn and Volt Switch isn't being brought up is ridiculous. I've seen entire teams dedicated solely to hit and run tactics. How is shadow-tag/M. Sab a problem when neither can stop these moves? Why is a slower, defensive, drawn out tactic more of an issue?

I see this ban as an attempt to dissuade Stall teams.

*As a handy note, when playing versus Goth, both players should turn off Battle Animations for the turns to pass by faster.

Hyper Offence: Hyper offence and teams with three set up sweepers pummel goth/sab teams.

Mega Sableye and other Mega Pokemon: Mega Sab is a great counter to itself and Goth. Mega Sab with Snarl and Calm Mind beat both easily. Also, Mega stones can't be tricked, locking Goth into a useless move.

Wobb and the other Shadow tag users are non issues when paired with M Sab. Gothirita is only useful with evolite and Wobb isn't as versatile as GothO.

Why are we suspect testing something so random when there are mons like Hoopa-U who don't even have counters? This is a needless complex ban. Keep it simple and try to avoid needless stuff like this.

Luring or predicting a gothitrap comes with less momentum stress to the player with goth in team preview, prediction goes both ways, you can say you double switch into a pursuit user yet the gothitrap user can Bluff a scarf trap, set up, status or switch in a hazard user on a common pursuit user hence gaining momentum with the free turn you gave it with a switch, it goes both ways man.

The only small argument that holds voice lies on unexpected knock offs, I'm fond of ko ferrothorn and cleffable when I'm not using them as clerics or I use ferrothorn as a pivot, but not everyone appreciates having to run knock off on cleffable unless it's an unaware set with twave/rocks and it's the only answer to a "one time" set up sweeper.

Seriously don't bring the switch in initiative fallacy here, prediction goes both ways unless you are using batton pass or volt turn, in wich case gothitrap wouldn't even be a factor given that none of the targets of stall gothitrap Pokémon are able to run it. If you again say that you can outpredict this go back to paragraph one and take hazard damage or possible par/burn free hits, knocked off item on your pursuit user if you miss predict as the gothitrap user still dictates the momentum.

 

[ian smart]

I'm gonna keep this short and simple. Shadow tag is not broken. The only good user is goth, who has fairly average defense and is literally destroyed by HO teams. Shadow tag prevents you from switching, so what? Take out the poke or use volt/turn. Also, why is this even a problem? Goth is essentially a BL mon and even then I don't think it forces perfect play. It isn't even used enough to be OU. That's like banning a poke from UU because it's good when it's even used. Goth won't destroy teams, it won't give you constant pressure because it's beatable. If anything, sableye is more centralizing than goth. Not only is it used more(enough to even be OU) it can wall out unprepared teams. Do I think it should be banned? No, because I change my team so that I'm not weak to it. Isn't that what we all do for any threats? I hope I can make a difference in all of this when/if I vote

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Shadow Tag gets suspected at long last! I've been wanting this to happen for so long now, or at least see it happen to Gothitelle. Not much left to say about it, but I did go through the tiering policy thing and hit out why I think STag limits both Skill and is uncompetitive (comments in bold). I tried to talk about Wobb and Goth, but I mostly talk about Goth because Wobb requires some degree of risk in using, though I think trapping abilities in general are obnoxious so I won't lose any sleep if it goes.

Skill & Uncompetitive definitions from tiering policy

I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon

A.) Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle

1.) Assessing threats - ability to recognize major threats in the metagame and identify how they both individually and in tandem deal with your team Gothitelle "blanket handles" a lot of possible threats by virtue of trap/trick or trap/twave, invalidating them for the most part. Wobbuffet does it in a similar way (offensive pokemon that can't 2HKO will die/encore, defensive pokemon will get encored and then set up on), but can't do it as effectively (tickle works VS balance whereas other sets work better VS offense, there's a tradeoff to be made)

a.) Involves having metagame knowledge through playing and observing
b.) Involves the ability to think beyond individual Pokemon threats and into the realm of threatening strategies and concepts​

2.) Dealing with threats - ability to maximize the 6 Pokemon slots, 24 move slots, and 6 item slots to handle metagame threats Gothitelle makes Shed Shell breakers almost mandatory, and limits the ability to handle metagame threats because it can trap/trick bulkier pokemon rendering them much easier to wear down or in some cases PP stall them out out. Wobb also limits the ability to deal with threats in that if you had an offensive check to something that can't 1v1 Wobbuffet, you've probably lost your check.

a.) Ability to recognize which slots are not serving maximum utility
b.) Ability to replace low efficiency slots with higher efficiency options Shed Shell is most of the time a low efficiency slot that serves no purpose outside of escaping being trapped.​

3.) Building Towards a Strategy (or strategies) - ability to build a team that is "greater than the sum of the individual parts" Similar to above, Gothitelle can remove a key part of a defensive core (first *) or cripple a key part of an offensive core (second *) by virtue of no switching out. Wobb can also do second * to offensive pokemon, but VS defensive pokemon will mostly provide its teammate a setup opportunity/free switch.

a.) Having the 6 Pokemon work together to cover weaknesses and emphasize strengths instead of just having 6 Pokemon with no cohesive strategy

* The most basic and common examples for covering weaknesses include combinations like CeleTran (Celebi and Heatran) or GyaraZone (Gyarados and Magnezone) in DPP
* One of the most basic and common example for emphasizing strengths includes a combination like DoubleDragon (using two Dragon Dancers to punch holes for each other).​

b.) Obviously isn't limited to combinations or trios; can refer to overall team strategies (think BP chains before outlawed or simple stall cores that work to cover each other's flaws)​

4.) Creativity - ability to come up with unique strategies or sets to swing momentum in your favor No Comment, but its hard to come up with a new idea that doesn't get crapped on by STag. (Though I have had fun using Chandelure)

a.) This means being able to surprise the opponent with a unique set or strategy without losing on general utility (too much)
b.) Doesn't just mean creating new sets, but also being able to use existing sets in a creative manner​

5.) Catering to Metagame / Opponents - ability to predict opponent trends, patterns, and tendencies The Gothitelle Stall teams are copy paste with maybe 1-2 alterations, I recall 2 teams like that: DeoSharp HO and Baton Pass, and they don't play 'with' the opponent in that there's almost a formula to use the team. Wobb is less of a culprit in these situations in that its kind of susceptible to being taken advantage of if it mispredicts.

a.) Involves knowing the percentages of what you'll encounter on ladder and being able to build accordingly.
b.) Involves knowing your opponents in tournaments and take note of their common trends in building and prepare accordingly.​

B.) Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling Side note, I think that in terms of battling skill Wobbuffet is much MUCH less of a culprit than Gothitelle, solely because Wobbuffet still requires some sort of prediction to use, since (a) its slow and (b) can be taken advantage of to some extent. Gothitelle usually will either T-Wave or Trick, depending on the foe and then switch out to the appropriate thing.

1.) Picking the Right Lead - ability to look at your team and your opponent's Pokemon and make an intelligent determination of what your win condition is and which Pokemon will best promote that in the beginning No Comment, requires some skill
2.) Recognizing the Win Condition - ability to look at your opponent's team in addition to the information gathered during a battle to recognize viable win conditions No Comment, requires some competence (but Goth can eliminate them reasonably easily).
3.) Picking the Right Move - ability to pick the best move in a discrete moment in time Ok, important note to make that both players have the full arsenal of decisions to make UNTIL STag user comes in. But then, there is usually "the move" you'll make before you're crippled/tricked and then the subsequent moves you'll make for the duration of being trapped.

a.) Encompasses ability to judge the opponent's potential moves
b.) Encompasses ability to choose between short and long term benefits and choose accordingly​

4.) Smart Switching - ability to switch intelligently to swing momentum in your favor Building off of #3, the player VS the trapper has to consistently make good moves/switches to avoid having their pokemon eliminated, whereas the player with the trapper only has to make 1-2 good plays (with regards to the trapper) in order to remove the target.

a.) Encompasses the ability to predict an opponent's moves and switch for the best scenario
b.) Encompasses the ability to continuously switch (double or triple switching) if necessary​

5.) Gathering Information and Making Assumptions Gothitelle in general is virtually the same each time around, you know almost exactly what its going to do the problem is that you can do next to nothing about it once it has you trapped.

a.) The ability to predict or assume opponent sets in order to better plan a win condition
b.) The ability to to set probabilities for what the opponent has based on his actions in order to maximize predictions​

6.) Long Term vs. Short Term Goals Since kills are guaranteed free switches, you're kind of in the dump if you kill something with your win-con while Goth is still alive.

a.) The ability to weigh when to bring in a potential win condition Almost never against a trapper, because the risk of the trapper coming in is insanely high against the desired target.
b.) The ability to judge whether an immediate benefit, such a revenge kill, is worth showing your hand or bringing out the win condition too early.​

7.) Assessing Risk VS Gothitelle you're always playing the high risk option because if it gets a switch-in against something it wants to cripple you dead. Wobb has more of a risk involved, because if you counter as they set up, then you risk getting smacked reasonably hard, or if you encore as they attack you just ate quite a bit of damage.

a.) Knowing when to sacrifice for a greater position later
b.) Knowing when and how to make a high risk, high reward move​

8.) Probability Management Not Relevant

a.) The ability to take into account the numerous probability factors that are in the game, including accuracy, secondary effects, and critical hits, and consider the best strategy
b.) Knowing how to minimize the risk presenting by probability factors​

9.) Prediction See Assessing Risk and also Smart Switching

a.) The ability to take into account all of the opponent's potential actions, apply weights to them, and move accordingly
b.) The ability to double or triple switch based on opponent tendencies to move momentum back in your favor​

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant

A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough. The thing is, there is no "good move" once you're trapped with something that can't outright KO Gothitelle. The "good move" when you can't kill something/are at risk of being killed is to switch out, but you can't do that against a Gothitelle so you're stuck attacking as it PP stalls you out/sets up on you/does whatever a Gothitelle does.
B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill. Not relevant
C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not. Not relevant
D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).​

In terms of trying to 'adapt' to Goth Stall I've been using SubCM Chandelure as my stall/balance breaker since it can put in a lot of work VS most variants of that team, and fares reasonably well VS balance staples like Clefable (it beats Unaware Clefable if you get the Shadow ball drop, has a reasonable chance to 2HKO with SR on the field, and sets up alongside MG CM sets, 2HKOs a ton of pokemon at +1 too). Its kind of deadweight VS offense, but if it can get behind a sub/paralysis support it can do a bit of damage (winning Sucker Punch mindgames VS Bisharp is a great feeling).

And on Gothitelle's pre-evolutions, they'll probably become like Smeargle/Espeon on BP chains; used solely because they fulfill a specific niche (think Smeargle with all the moves, Espeon with Magic Bounce to prevent hazards/bounce back taunts). Not really 'problematic' in and of themselves, but I'd rather not have to go through 3 variants of the STag clause to get it right (the replay with Gothorita illustrates this pretty well). I am strongly pro-ban on Shadow Tag.

Sableye on the other hand, I'm not so sure of (actually slightly more against the ban than neutral about it). Sure it provides a ton of utility simultaneously preventing your opponent from setting hazards and (if its a team that spins) removing them, but thats more of why I see it as S rank Utility and not so much ban-able, since at the end of the day its pretty slow and susceptible to being worn down from repeated attacks/chip damage. Its also kind of passive, so some things will be able to take advantage of it regardless. I'll refrain from making a decision until I play some of the suspect ladder without it, but for now I'm leaning on no ban on Mega Sableye.
I haven't really done much in terms of 'adapting' to Sableye, I've loved using Clefable for a while now so that hasn't changed.

edit: Reply to above
Gothitelle isn't supposed to be taking hits from the HO team, its meant to cripple the thing that breaks your team (and its bulky enough to take Hyper Voice from M-Garde so its at least reasonably bulky). Goth also isn't meant to do any of the things you mentioned, and STag its not being suspected for its centralization, its being suspected because its unhealthy/a stupid ability/uncompetitive. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "take out the poke" gothitelle can trap when Goth can trap anything without a shed shell/ghost-types, which encompasses a lot of pokemon.

 

[Norne]

I'm gonna keep this short and simple. Shadow tag is not broken. The only good user is goth, who has fairly average defense and is literally destroyed by HO teams. Shadow tag prevents you from switching, so what? Take out the poke or use volt/turn. Also, why is this even a problem? Goth is essentially a BL mon and even then I don't think it forces perfect play. It isn't even used enough to be OU. That's like banning a poke from UU because it's good when it's even used. Goth won't destroy teams, it won't give you constant pressure because it's beatable. If anything, sableye is more centralizing than goth. Not only is it used more(enough to even be OU) it can wall out unprepared teams. Do I think it should be banned? No, because I change my team so that I'm not weak to it. Isn't that what we all do for any threats? I hope I can make a difference in all of this when/if I vote

Name a common target to gothitrap that uses volt turn, name a 115 plus base speed HO user that isn't harmed by a scarf switch or enters into revenge rate after an attack with goth, I personally run scarf to outspeed 110+2 to catch on max invested Pokémon of that tier and enough bulk to survive dstorm or moonblast from Diancie and ohko with energy ball after hazards. Not useful against HO, don't make me laugh.

Again prediction goes both ways, goth bulk isn't stellar but it actually let's him survive non effective hits or avoid being set up fooder.

 

[ian smart]

Name a common target to gothitrap that uses volt turn, name a 115 plus base speed HO user that isn't harmed by a scarf switch or enters into revenge rate after an attack with goth, I personally run scarf to outspeed 115+2 to catch on max invested Pokémon of that tier and enough bulk to survive dstorm or moonblast from Diancie and ohko with energy ball after hazards. Not useful against HO, don't make me laugh.

Again prediction goes both ways, goth bulk isn't stellar but it actually let's him survive non effective hits or avoid being set up fooder.

Goth can only trap so much. It can't trap everything. Some games it's completely useless. If a poke that you have on your team can be trapped by goth, then don't bring in that poke. Even if that one poke dies, you still have 5 more. It's hard to deal with but not impossible.

 

[Norne]

Goth can only trap so much. It can't trap everything. Some games it's completely useless. If a poke that you have on your team can be trapped by goth, then don't bring in that poke. Even if that one poke dies, you still have 5 more. It's hard to deal with but not impossible.

And it still locks that one Pokémon or makes one setup bait thanks to scarf trade, again goth caps at 376 speed with scarf, base 115 at 361, there are loads of Pokémon that can also suffer from gothitrap on offense.

 

[EraiMHFU]

Goth can only trap so much. It can't trap everything. Some games it's completely useless. If a poke that you have on your team can be trapped by goth, then don't bring in that poke. Even if that one poke dies, you still have 5 more. It's hard to deal with but not impossible.

Trust me, GOTH IS NOT USELESS, it will always put its weight, just by crippling something to even force it to struggle, nothing likes to have a scarf tricked, also, the only relevant things that goth is unable to trap are Gengar and Sableye.

Goth doesnt even need to be on stall team like I stated in countless posts, it can help just by severaly crippling a wall.

"If one dies you still have 5" Goth's job is remove or cripple key members such as defensive backbones or stallbreakers, not to nab 6-0s

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Sigh. . . So many, "just check it nitwit" posts here. Does no one understand that in order to check a Shadow Tagger you have to lose something? AKA the trapper has done its job and couldn't possibly care less what happens next.

People please, stop with the "just Pursuit it" and "but you can't trap ghosts" shit. Stop looking at it through a vacuum. In order to understand why this is necessary, you have to understand the situations the STagger will be in. It's been mentioned that from turn 1 it arm bars the opponent, it traps what ever threatens your team, removes it and makes it null and void.

Let's not forget trash like this exists. You literally need to have a working brain to get your trappers to work.

It is noncompetitive in nature, simple as that. . .

Thank God the bar has been raised for this suspect, we don't need another megagross suspect-like result.

Subject 18 edit: let's not do that. kthx

 

[Plain Spit]

It's a bit saddening to see my favorite Pokemon being suspected (Sableye-Mega), but I'm not here to defend it; I've had my share of 'fun'. The idea that Sablenite would ever be included with another element of the meta game for a suspect test has be believing that we aren't completely clear of the imbalance in OU. Truly I understand the upbringing of this test and I thank the council for this, so instead of opinion, I'll try to provide as much quality evidence that should ultimately decide the outcome of the suspect test.

Sableye, so far in ORAS has established itself as the face of the stall playstyle, and that anyone against that playstyle in general are most likely going for the sableye ban just because they hate it (biased). If you're here spattering opinions without any real evidence just to turn votes to a meta game of your favor, you won't get anyone's respect without evidence or reqs. Remember, suspect tests are for the benefit of the meta, not for a few individuals. Anyways, lets take a look at this particular Sableye:

~〈⌬w⌬~〉 (Sableye) (M) @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 240 HP / 88 Def / 176 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Protect
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
- Foul Play

Now the reason I think people believe Sableye is skill-less is because it easily takes advantage of turn 1 with the safety of protect/fake out and/or prankster will-o-wisp upon mega evolving, discouraging hazard setting and physically offensive Pokemon while guaranteeing a Mega-evolution. Here is a raw count of Sableye being a lead on the OU-1825 department: | 2 | Sableye | 6.29766% | 128863 | 3.012% |. Having Prankster and Magic Bounce in the same turn holds more than enough weight to be in the S Ranks even if it is just for one turn. Provided with a very useful move pool (knock off, calm mind, snarl, shadow ball, foul play, protect, fake out, will-o-wisp, metal burst, etc.) resistance to poison types, three immunity (normal, psychic, and fighting types), and only one weakness being to fairy types, Sableye definitely deserves this suspect, that much we can't dispute. Now the real reason I brought up this specific Sableye set is to strengthen the argument about its bulk and that it actually is problematic. The EV spread demonstrates that Sableye-mega can play the mix wall and do fairly well against both physical and specially offensive pokemon, I'm speaking specifically about it's potential to pseudo walling both +1 Gyarados-Mega and Life Orb Gengar at the same time(I discovered this spread just weeks ago through the dmg calc, and only now am I sharing this with the community). Keep reading, trust me it's worth your time.

Sableye-Mega vs Gyarados-Mega
Assuming Sableye-Mega switches in on Gyarados-Mega pulling off a dragon dance, Sableye can go for a will-o-wisp and survive a +1 waterfall.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 88+ Def Mega Sableye: 171-202 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Let's also assume waterfall was a high roll, leaving Sableye-Mega at 32.9% and with a burnt Gyarados-Mega. The next logical move is Sableye-Mega recovering and Gyarados-Mega attacking with waterfall.
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 88+ Def Mega Sableye: 85-101 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
If waterfall doesn't hit high rolls or cause flinch, Sableye-Mega is clearly going to take advantage of Gyarados-Mega. This isn't even guaranteed that Gyarados-Mega will go for a dragon dance.

Sableye-Mega vs Life Orb Gengar
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 176 SpD Mega Sableye: 130-153 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
Let's do the math:
1-3.9%=96.1% to survive 2 hits
96.1%-20%(shadow ball sp.def drop)= 76.88% to survive 2 hits
That means Sableye-Mega can switch in on Life Orb Gengar's shadow ball and have 76.88% chance to recover while netting Life Orb damage on Gengar putting it in range for knock off or foul play KO before sp.def drops.
0- Atk Mega Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 248-294 (95.7 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 158-188 (61 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (-nature 0 atk 0 IV atk Gengar)

Here are a few more calc just to get a better feel of this particular Sableye set:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 176 SpD Mega Sableye: 115-136 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 176 SpD Mega Sableye: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (recover on the hit)
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 176 SpD Mega Sableye: 103-123 (34.2 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 176 SpD Mega Sableye: 112-133 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 88+ Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 240 HP / 88+ Def Mega Sableye: 126-148 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Note: if any physical hit with the highest roll is under 66.7% (there are many),
it has no chance of killing Sableye-Mega 1 vs 1 unless will-o-wisp fails.
66.6%(dmg)+33.3%(brnt dmg)=99.9% total dmg (Sableye-Mega survives the 2hko and proceeds to recover as the burn dmg stacks.)

As you can see, the EV spread of 240 HP / 88 Def / 176 SpD with Bold or Impish nature is the perfect spread for a mix wall without having to use the calm mind set. The 4 EVs on speed is there to take advantage of Ferrothorn (even the ones without gyro ball) if ever Sableye-Mega was at an extremely low HP%, but it can always be put in bulk to feel safer. Now You're probably thinking,"Ok, so what if it does have good bulk? It's still passive." Actually, it isn't so passive as you think. Foul play is a move that utilizes the foes attack stat for the user as its own, and the fact that Sableye is a dark type, the addition of STAB will always be in play making it extremely devastating for most physical attackers that already don't like being burnt. Might I add that even some of the special attackers don't like taking a foul play either(Gardevoir, Latios, Latias, Gengar, Alakazam, Tornadus-T, Thundurus, Manectric, Raikou, Slowbro, etc.) In addition, will-o-wisp + protect + recover isn't just a means for safely mega evolving. What it actually does is it takes advantage of a burnt foe by patterning protect + recover until it switches out or faints. Personally, I find it much more useful to run protect than fake out because fake out is so useless after the first turn in and it's not even guaranteed they'll stay in to take the flinch. And of course you have the ability to scout with protect, having the opportunity to gain momentum in the case of the foe holding a choice item or double switching. I can go on with how Sableye-Mega makes Uber synergy with mediocre teammates but I think I'll just leave it to my replays for you to judge.

Oh ya, and I'm sorry for having an opinion on Gothitelle, but I have to say that it truly is broken. It's not something worth explaining, but I'll let you in on something: the thunder wave set is ridiculously broken, not the calm mind set. The calm mind set can simply be countered by running a dark type to stop its tracks. The fact that choice scarf Gothitelle outspeeds anything under the 122 base speed (looking at you Tornadus-T) gives stall & balance teams the speed advantage if needed for its slower teammates by nitpicking certain foes and crippling it with thunder wave or trick it & thunder wave it, fishing for the 25% full paralysis and taking advantage of the free turns to rest or input damage(this is what I believe to cause the uprising of Weavile). Paired with Sableye-Mega, now that you have the speedsters paralyzed you can burn spam basically anything else on the opposing team. To be honest, I think its just as beneficial to burn 1-2 Pokemon as it is to have stealth rocks up, and we already know who isn't getting rocks up.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-288405570 It was halloween, or maybe he was just sick of it?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-271244596 Took advantage of Paralyzed Pidgeot. He forfeited.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292911123 Paralyzed Tornadus-T, then swept with Togekiss.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-291244207 Took advantage of Paralyzed Serperior. Swepted with Ditto.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-293820846 Scouted Choice Band Azumarill. He gave up.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-296388626 Revenge killed Pinsir with Gothitelle. Played smart the rest of the match and won.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-293077480 Forced Diancie to mega evolve with Gothitelle. Played smart in the end and won.

For the record, these replays aren't actually here to back up the the calcs I previously mentioned, but I assure you that it is the same exact Sableye set I've mentioned. You can check for yourself if the calcs are accurate on http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/, and if you'd like to see for yourself hands on you can try out my team http://pastebin.com/CaAE9Pi7. I hope I gave enough evidence as I see a lot of Sableye/Gothitelle users being too afraid to let others in on the scheme. Happy laddering.

 

[noobcubed]

It's interesting to compare the average postcounts of those who don't want Shadow Tag to go, versus the vast majority who do. For the last time, Shadow Tag users do not have counters because a counter is something that can switch into a threat safely, and Shadow Tag prevents switching altogether.

Somewhere up the page someone pointed out about how lures can achieve much of the same thing as Gothitelle, at least when it comes to trapping walls. But there is a difference: the LO HP Ground Clefable example mentioned lures Heatran and nothing else, whereas Gothitelle traps every wall in existence. Lures are a creative and quite reasonable way of breaking defensive cores; not least because they don't get used too often, as the lure has to sacrifice plenty of utility in order to lure on specific threat which it won't even be facing 90% of the time. You have to think twice before running a lure; the same cannot be said for Gothitelle. Even without ABR stall and its variants Shadow Tag would still be an unhealthy addition to the metagame.

 

[CactusCacti]

Kinda been waiting for this suspect to happen, as I've seen this deadly duo put so much weight in, that it was just a matter of time.
Tho in my own experiences and observations, my input for this matter might have been phrased already in other words but regardless;

Personaly I feel that mega sable itself is kinda solid for stall play and in a way, needed to keep up with the powers in the ladder, as alone its power against threats and the like whithers away after mega evo with its losing of priority status, making it easier to deal with later game, tho its bulk and move pool is awesome, it still has to choose a weakness that will leave it open to one side and force it to patch other with move performance timing, however..
This is why gothitelle is strong here to help patch its weakness and give it so much more chances for late game setup as it can eliminate the threat to mega sableye so effortlessly. Sub users, calm minders, mold breakers, non megas in general just hate the unavoidable, unescapeable trick scarf and momentum loss when they are forced to just that one thing they are allowed to do anymore.
Gothitelle that manages to double switch in on your setuppers or other important support mons that could potentially deal with mega sable is just such a frigging game over sign its not even funny.

infact, trapping alone, the type you really cant do much against has always been a big issue in med to high level play from what I've experienced and observed, specially if the trapper gains too much utility to make it work to force the victim to get high level of 'stuck' on.
Gothitelle and its line is the rare trapper that lets you sabotage foes mon without allowing them to be able to do much at all in return, which is extremely powerful and also feels extremely unfair for the other player as its very little that they can do against it once they are face to face with goth.
Wobbufett alone with its encore shenigans can be extremely annoying as it can mean death or momentum loss, but its not as drastic as scarfs crippling, still it can be game changers and also shares the feel of "ugh, well cant do much to that when i cant switch..", which is why I can see the reason whole shadow tag is in the sights.

in a way, its kinda funny how shadow tag and trapping has been mostly been issue to stall players before mega sableye appeared and now its mostly used by the stall, but regardless, my stance in this is pretty much that I feel shadow tag really needs to go. I am indifferent about mega sableye as I feel it would not be so powerful without its gothitelle wife's help, I kinda feel it should stay but I am not against it going either.

 

[Bice]

FINALLY, A SUSPECT THAT'S STALL RELATED

Anyway, on to the point. Shadow Tag requires immense prediction to play around. It's not AS broken as Mega Sableye, which I will talk about in a minute, but it's still fairly overcentralizing and frustrating to play around. While one COULD argue the wielders of the ability are fairly shoddy (especially since they all have a Knock Off weakness), no one in their right mind would switch, say, Gothitelle into a Bisharp. Another thing to note, is that there are very few Pokemon immune to the effects of this move unless they have a switching move (such as U-Turn). Outside of Mega Gengar, who is confined to Ubers, only the Gothitelle and Wobbuffet lines have Shadow Tag. There's also only two Ghost-types, which are Mega Sableye and Gengar. Usually, Shadow Tag teams will have checks/counters to these 'mons, such as Clefable and AV Tornadus-T respectively, in order to have the playing field on their side. And, as many people have said, in order to check Shadow Tag, one has to lose a 'mon to check Shadow Tag. After some debating, I've ultimately decided Shadow Tag needs to go.

Now, onto Mega Sableye. This thing has an amazing defensive typing, with its only weakness being Fairy. Mega Sableye also has incredible bulk, and some good utility moves to boot, namely Will-O-Wisp. It also has Magic Bounce, putting pressure on hazard setters, as well as hazard-stacking teams. These traits ultimately make Mega Sableye very overcentralizing, as almost everyone has to pack some sort of Mega Sableye counter, namely Fairies such as Clefable or Mega Diancie. Because of the limited amount of Mega Sableye counters, Mega Sableye's team will usually be well-prepared to take out Mega Sableye's counters, which usually results in creating a win condition for it. Also, many people use Mega Sableye in tandem with Shadow Tag to help take out its checks and counters. Because of these traits, I feel Mega Sableye needs to get out of OU as well.

tl;dr: Mega Sableye and Shadow Tag both need to be sent to the Ubers prison.

(P.S.: Mega Sableye won't go to shit in Ubers; it's A on the Ubers Viability ranking. Even then, saying a suspect tested mon will go to shit in Ubers is not a valid argument.)