np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Diamonds [Read post #226] [BANNED]

[Eoin482]

So I think like a lot of people I was very surprised by the timing of this suspect, when some extremely unhealthy strategies like Baton Pass and extreme HO are on the rise. I don't think Sableye, stall, or gimmick trio strategies are broken in the current meta, for reasons I will argue below. However, Ajwf puts forward a convincing argument for centralization within stall building itself, which is definitely worth weighing into the discussion.

How well does Sableye prevent hazards
Sableye has unquestionably changed the manner in which teams go about setting hazards, the lead rocker who doesn't 1v1 this thing is well and truly dead. For me, this is a welcome change; there are few enough reasons for balance not to throw phys def Lando brainlessly onto the squad without banning Sable. While it has changed the way hazards are set, Sableye does not stop common rockers such as Clefable, Heatran and Azelf. Teams who find they have difficulty in this regard can also make use of more specialized setters that still have viability elsewhere, such as offensive SR Garchomp, who pressures Sableye out. The argument that rockers like Clef and Heatran are "crippled" by Knock Off is not really true against stall, since the lack of offensive pressure on these teams means they can stay relatively healthy throughout the game. This of course only covers the lead matchup that Sableye gives you. With good play, it should also be possible to put Sableye in positions where switching in on Landorus, T-tar or whatever is dangerous. Sableye of course suffers from its lack of raw bulk, so losing the 50-50 on the opposing Stealth rocker more than once is usually not an option.

0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage

This calc is a decent illustration of how precarious the process of constantly switching in Sableye on the opposing rocker can be. Furthermore, because it is instantly forced to recover, Sableye becomes a huge momentum sap on teams which can let all manner of dangerous stallbreakers in. Having said all that, Sableye is still an absolutely central force on stall teams for the control it gives you, and is a must have in stall vs stall matchups.

How healthy are the gimmick strategies that Sableye makes possible
One of the issues some people have with Sableye is its role in very specific strategies like the "Wonder Trio". These usually involve Shedinja exploiting Sableye's hazard control, and Dugtrio trapping certain rockers and Pursuit trappers. I think we need to be realistic about how viable these teams actually are. The original team contained titans of the OU tier like Seismitoad, Defog Togekiss, Dugtrio, Shedinja, and non SD Talon. Since the damage output on these pokemon is so low, it enabled opponents to probe for weaknesses for many, many turns before the effects of status and hazards began to take a toll. Ironically the weak link in this team was almost invariably Sableye itself; the other pokemon synergize extremely well in terms of defensive typing but it is the pressure certain rockers put on Sableye that often caused the team's downfall. When you look at the way these teams are played, against proper opposition it actually takes a good bit of skill to see the strategy through over a long period. Contrast this with other playstyles that are extremely popular at the moment, such as Baton Pass and Bird Spam. These teams come with a preordained set of instructions and limit the influence of good play to a much greater degree than Sheddy stall. There is perhaps an argument that trapping itself, even in the lesser manner of Dugtrio and Magnezone, is uncompetitive, but that is currently irrelevant.

How necessary are hazards against stall
This is the point that convinces me against the necessity of a Sableye ban. When you look at the manner in which non-stall teams traditionally beat stall, it is rarely by wearing them down with hazards, but rather by weakening the counter to whatever stallbreaker you have on your team. This is obviously much more difficult for some teams then others (a case in point was the difficulty of breaking hard stall with Zard X because Quagsire would usually be restricted to the job of taking on that one thing). However, it remains true that when building a team and considering means of beating stall, the job can usually be achieved with one slot on the team, whether it goes to Manaphy or Mega Heracross or whatever. Since Mega Sableye is only so effective as part of a specific team archetype, and since that archetype is so reliant on keeping all six members alive, it is also worth looking at the viability of various means of killing Sableye's teammates. One obvious example of this is the use of Magnezone, who can devastate stall teams by removing Skarmory at will, allowing a multitude of other pokemon that are otherwise phased out to set up and run amok. Of course pivoting into wallbreakers is more effective with hazards up, but if your team really does find it impossible to get them up, there are simply too many alternative means of getting past stall for me to consider Sableye over-centralizing.

Has Mega Sableye diminished creativity in stall building
This is a much more contentious issue and one I didn't really consider until it was raised here. I think, in most cases, it is generally agreed that Sable stall will overcome non-Sable stall. This is a problem, because it severely undermines the viability of building stall without Sableye. Perhaps tellingly, I don't know exactly how one would go about building a team that could overcome this deficiency, because I have never seen a stall team without Sableye in use in ORAS. I do believe that creativity is still prevalent in stall building; nevermind my disdain for the "Wonder Trio", it is still a little piece of genius. However, there is no doubt that this one pokemon has utterly subsumed the playstyle, and if there are arguments for a ban I think they are found here.

With all that said I do not see stall or Sableye as one of the problems in the tier at the moment. There are bigger fish to fry and those who accuse stall players of being skilless or robotic should really look at Hyper offense.
No Ban

 

[Aberforth]

Sableye was already tested back alongside Goth and honestly my thoughts on it are the same as they were then, if not leaning more towards Sableye being fine.

One of the big arguments towards banning Sableye is that it is too good at the Hazard game. I disagree with this very notion. While Sableye is very good at preventing hazards from do-nothing mons like Chansey, the number of rock setters it can reliably switch into is much lower now, because people have accepted they cant just use passive stuff and expect to beat things that punish people playing too passively. The metagame has evolved and we’re now seeing a large number of sets that do beat Sableye and also set rocks. Things like SD Lando, Clefable, Heatran and SpDef Drill are at much higher usages now, and even the things that are bothered by it have a way of getting around it. Azelf has skill swap and passive forms of Chomp and Lando have Dtail/Uturn to chip away at it so that it’s in the range for 2 Earthquake.

And yes, it is very difficult to get up and maintain rocks vs some common stall builds. It’s also hard to switch into stuff like Lopunny and Medicham, depending on the team. Common stall builds are frequently relying on half of their team in order to prevent rocks from being up often. Actually more then half given that preventing rocks 100% of the time uses Sableye, Dugtrio, Skarm and Zapdos. With so much dedication to this purpose, I am not surprised rocks are hard to get up. It’s like having a Slowbro, a Tangrowth and a Mega Scizor on a team, you’re not going to lose to Metagross unless you play badly or they play really well and are able to weaken all of them to within range of Metagross’s attacks. When half of a team is dedicated to a purpose, a reasonable person would say that it’s fine for the team to do well at that thing. Stall dedicates much of it’s purpose around hazards, and so it is hard to prevent hazards. This doesn’t mean we then need to cut away at stall to make it worse, it means people should grow up and adapt. You are not entitled to your hazards. You have to work for them. This does not mean you should ban things that prevent that. That does not mean that all hazard setters need to be allowed to set their hazards, Ferro wont get up spikes vs Stall teams pretty much ever. But the mons that are less passive and have roles that aren't just setting hazards are capable of setting hazards if you play well with them. That's not to say you cant use Ferro, but that does mean that if you do use Ferro, you should be aware of the fact that Sableye prevents it from doing it's job, and thus work to mitigate that weakness in the rest of the team by use of mons like Manaphy.

Also there are many examples of stall teams that don’t use Sableye and are still considered by some to be overbearing. ABR has demonstrated in the past with his Altaria Double Defog team that it’s possible to create a very effective stall team without Sableye that also pretty much 100% of the time prevents hazards from being a huge issue. The rise of Defog has made it so that beating stall is something people actually need to work towards, because it’s now more complicated and nuanced than it has been in the past. I see things like this as raising the skill requirement to be ‘good’ and can only see this as a good thing.

Also, regarding this suspect, in the OLT playoffs, it’s been brought 6 times, 4 if you only count from Round 1. Since Round 1, it hasn’t won a game unless I’m blind and missed one. That’s out of 141 games as of the time I’m writing this. 4/141. That does not suggest to me that this is nearly as prevalent of a threat as people are making it out to be, and it makes this suspect seem like a loud minority of people yelling until they get their way. And before people claim that OLT isn’t a good enough tour, first off it’s a trophy tour still, you cant just dismiss it so cavalierly, second, in the STour going on rn, it’s hovering at a usage that would barely keep it in OU if it were the ladder stats, and has an unimpressive win rate of 53%. While not a bad win rate, things like Chansey, being used only 7 times more, has a winrate of 62%. That suggests that Sableye isn’t the deciding factor in whether a stall team is successful, especially since the difference in win rates is more than 7, so both Chansey and Sab are being used independently of each other, and Chansey is doing a lot better. Which brings me back to the point that Sableye is just not doing well enough nor being used enough at high levels of play to deserve this sort of vitriol.

Sableye punishes people who play far too passively. If you’re using helmet chomp + ferro + medicham + scarftar + keldeo + breloom or w/e, you can clearly see that you have no way of beating Sableye + defensive grass. You don’t then get to complain to the guy using Sableye + Defensive Grass because you are unwilling to adapt to a relevant metagame threat. If I’m using a team 6-0’d by Lopunny, I don’t then get to call for Lopunny to be banned, I adapt and use shit like scarf pokemon, Lando, Chomp, more defensive pokemon that can tank hits, ext. There are ways of adapting to Sableye. Strong Wallbreaker + scarfrachi (aka healing wish) for example has been a reliable way of beating stall since even Goth was in the tier. But if you’re just using a passive team that doesn’t actually have a way of beating something common, change the team.

And I don’t buy the idea that the checks and counters to stall teams are so different with each one. ZardY + TTar guarantees at least a kill (or they played well and trapped TTar before it could get one, a sign of skilful play being rewarded), and if you’re that concerned about Duggy stuff like Zard Y + Weavile could also work, despite being not as effective, stuff like Manaphy can go up against a lot of stall teams and have a reasonable chance of doing well, SD Earth Plate Lando-T is difficult for a lot of stall teams to deal with (if you're adamant, without adamant you dont 2hko Quag) and as an added bonus can run rocks and doesn’t get stopped by Sableye. Calm Mind Waters like Vincune and SubCM Keldeo are quite effective against common stall builds, stuff like Serperior and Bisharp are effective against a lot of stall teams, Volcanion can go to town if Chansey is ever weakened, ext. And that’s not as if we’re going into the really niche stuff like Togekiss and Crawdaunt which can manhandle almost every stall team.

The way to beat stall has changed with the arrival of ORAS and that is not a bad thing. First off, there are ways to punish obvious switches that are not dependent on Hazards being up. Switch into your banded weavile on the chansey double, switch into heatran when you’re expecting Amoongus to come in so u can fire off Lava Plume/Magma Storm, switch into your stallbreaker on a predicted switch from where it can set up (unless you’re not using a stallbreaker, or using outdated ones).

Sableye punishes passiveness, which I find healthy for a metagame, it has numerous answers (not just to it, but to stall teams in general) and it’s not so effective at it’s job that I feel it should be banned.

 

[ninamori]

I would just like to post some reactions to playing on the suspect ladder:

The teams I see really haven't changed. Perhaps there have been slightly more offensive teams with Medicham but nothing notable and I think this trend will decrease over time. This tells me mega sableye doesn't truly have a huge impact on the metagame. That alone doesn't imply sableye isn't broken but it is something to consider.

I do not believe mega sableye needs to be banned. Just like any other pokemon it has its good and bad matchups but I believe there are enough options available to play around sableye or straight up counter it.

I will however point out that mega sableye is one of those threats that is mandatory to plan for when building a good team, but again this is no different from other mons like talonflame, ferrothorn, bisharp, and medicham along other top tier threats, just to name a few.

 

[Plain Spit]

Hello to all. I'm relatively new to ORAS OU (I only started to play on showdown about 3 months ago) but I'm an avid player. On showdown, we've probably gone up against the terror known as Mega Sableye. But all in all, stall is stall. Mega Sableye may have revolutionized stall teams in that classic stallbreaking methods wouldn't work. If Sableye had access to phazing moves, then I'd be yelling 'BAN! BAN!'. Thankfully that's not the case. However, calling him cancerous (fyi that's why we ban them), is wrong. The critter has very glaring flaws that needs to be assessed before going any further.

Sableye is only weak to fairy, so he's ideal as a defensive mon. But therein lies his first (and arguably most major) flaw. His base HP is 50. In a word, Paltry.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye in Sun: 225-265 (74 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye in Sun: 246-289 (80.9 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Both Modest and Timid Mega Charizard Y easily KO Mega Sableye.

252 Atk Mega Absol Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Another instance is mega Absol. Or for that fact, Mega Diancie. Any half decent wallbreaker, can destroy mega sableye. For example...

+4 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 313-370 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's not hard to get a few leaf storms off. Against mega sableye, anybody could do it.

Another big weakness is the fact that mold breaker shuts sableye down, or for that matter skill swap. Mold breaker allows pokemon like Haxorus (mind you he's a brilliant stallbreaker), to taunt mega Sableye. Mega Gyarados also has mold breaker and access to taunt.

The third weakness is the prevalence of the fairy typing. Azumarill, Clefable, Sylveon, M-Gardevoir... All of these eat sableye for breakfast.
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

even better....

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 535-631 (175.9 - 207.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if Azumarill is burned while setting up a belly drum, It wouldn't end well for sableye.

Another issue is the concept of Hazards... How can you set them up if you're playing against M-Sableye? Short Answer... You don't. Hazards aren't necessary. SR are next to useless unless they have pokes like TalonFlame, charizard, or Beedril, or Kyurem-B. Spikes are convenient but not mandatory. And if you really want SR or spikes, use Mold Breaker +Hazards. Excadrill exists.

But wait. You may be having doubts. What if they run Sableye and Talonflame on the same team? If they run Semi-stall? Answer: They can't support Mega Sableye then. Sableye requires a stall team to play effectively (believe me I was playing against this bastard for 183 turns, we were holding up the tour and CZ had to come and flip coin to disqualify one of us...). Sableye on its own is very weak. It requires a team that supports it to play effectively.

TL;DR Sableye is pretty weak unless supported the right way. Remove support and it's harmless.

I am saying Don't Ban and I urge you to say the same. We can all appreciate this mischief making mon and respect his standing in the OU tier.

One, I'd like to mention that you are absolutely wrong about hazards and that Sableye is not an exception to laying down your stealth rocks; you are basically allowing Sableye to be the wall that it is in that aspect. Two, it isn't so much that stall as a playstyle is the problem than what Sableye allows to be viable and that anyone who has ever faced it or is the offender of the suspect (which I am) probably understands that the options Sableye has far-outway your typical Sab-less stall. Three, no Sablenite team goes unprepared for those threats and that there are plenty of mons that Sableye could never have a chance against 1v1, but that is exactly why we have 5 other slots to fulfill a goal against those. Example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-464104403

Also I'd like to point out a few traits from Sableye that probably weren't mentioned here yet:
Can't be overwhelmed by Hidden Power.
Potentially two abilities in a single turn upon Mega Evolving.

Trust me when I say I love the damn thing infact too much to the point that it's almost criminal. But as far as my stance is on the matter, I've already said it once in the round 5 suspect: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-5-run-the-jewels.3556762/page-6#post-6539449 . For the record, I'm sorry that I even used it I don't like being called cancer, aids, whatever, more importantly I'm sorry to those I've ever faced in silence because it feels very wierd and introverted when you were talking shit to me for using Sableye and I reframed from making Kaitlin Jenner jokes about your Gardevoir. I'm actually a really nice guy in person; if you've ever asked for a win in PM's I would have gladly forfeited that match. It's just a ladder bro.


With gen 7 coming soon I don't think anyone can dispute the fact that no matter the outcome of this suspect, we have to be ready for the changes. Just saying.

 

[yuruuu]

When you Ctrl+F "Dugtrio" on the first page and get 18 hits...

I would just like to point out that most of the problems can be solved by removing this cancer called trapping. It is not a problem inherent to Mega Sableye. If they replaced Mega Sableye with Mega Slowbro/Venusaur/Whatever you like, your CB Tyranitar stallbreaker is still going to get go poof and you are going to lose. The argument that Mega Sableye is limiting your stallbreakers just does not hold any weight when Dugtrio is trapping wallbreakers like Manaphy, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham...which are all Pokemon you are going to use to break stall anyway. Let's be honest about what the real problem is here.

Mega Sableye's overcentralization issue is also hugely overstated. Has it stopped anyone from using SR on a Pokemon? If I'm running a Hippowdon, I'm probably still going to run Stealth Rock on it. Defensive Lando-T? Garchomp? Same issue. Also they are all walled by Skarmory anyway... Many people seem to think that Clefable/Heatran are the only Pokemon that can set up SR against Mega Sableye. I do not care if this is true, certainly Magic Bounce can stop things like Hippowdon, stop playing so passively, put pressure, weaken them.

Overcentralizing and unhealthy are like the two buzzwords people seem to love to claim when talking about suspect tests, but I haven't seen anything to back it up. You always prepare for ladder trends no matter where you are on the ladder, if that Pokemon is Mega Sableye then you prepare for it. If we look at the tour scene, both SPL, and WCOP, we'd see that Mega Sableye doesn't even force people to run Fire / Fairy types. I actually analyzed that personally, Ground, Steel, Flying, Psychic, Water types are all mandatory on pretty much all the teams, but Fire/Fairy are pretty far down the list.

[10/28/2016 11:42:15 PM] p2: but i lose to dugtrio sab teams
[10/28/2016 11:42:23 PM] xiiaoxin: that's because [redacted, even if everyone knows what i said here] dugtrio is broken
[10/28/2016 11:42:27 PM] p2: because its impossible for me to apply pressure without having my wincon trapped
[10/28/2016 11:42:30 PM] p2: LOL duggy isnt broken
[10/28/2016 11:42:36 PM] p2: its sableye

I sincerely hope everyone does not make the above mistake, because the logic gap here is extremely clear and apparent.

When a Pokemon is slow as hell, less bulky than Keldeo, has the most telegraphed switches in history, and you have issues applying pressure on it, I recommend quitting mons and taking up Tic Tac Toe. The main issue here is that people have problems applying pressure because of Arena Trap, and, let's be honest, this isn't Mega Sableye's fault.

No Ban. At the very least, we should remove trapping as an element, rather than this poor Pokemon that has been unfairly saddled with the effects of another Pokemon altogether, before coming back to it.

Edit:

Ok, I'll be very very brief here. Trapping has literally been in the game, and used on stall teams to remove breakers since ADV. Getting rid of 1 pokemon is not a bad thing. The reason why you think trapping is broken is because Sableye makes you overly dependent on that one mon in order to win. The problem isn't Dugtrio removing that one mon, but Sableye warping the whole game so whether you win or lose depends pretty much solely on how well you use that one mon in the first place.

Regardless of what you use, trapping stallbreakers is just something that stall wants to do because they don't want to be swept by it, and it's a very easy way to remove a threat. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Mega Sableye. I could be running Mega Venusaur, and it would make jack shit of a difference. You're essentially claiming that Mega Sableye is making Dugtrio's effect more prominent, which, while factually untrue, isn't even Mega Sableye's fault.

 

[baddummy]

When you Ctrl+F "Dugtrio" on the first page and get 18 hits...

I would just like to point out that most of the problems can be solved by removing this cancer called trapping. It is not a problem inherent to Mega Sableye. If they replaced Mega Sableye with Mega Slowbro/Venusaur/Whatever you like, your CB Tyranitar stallbreaker is still going to get go poof and you are going to lose. The argument that Mega Sableye is limiting your stallbreakers just does not hold any weight when Dugtrio is trapping wallbreakers like Manaphy, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham...which are all Pokemon you are going to use to break stall anyway. Let's be honest about what the real problem is here.

Mega Sableye's overcentralization issue is also hugely overstated. Has it stopped anyone from using SR on a Pokemon? If I'm running a Hippowdon, I'm probably still going to run Stealth Rock on it. Defensive Lando-T? Garchomp? Same issue. Also they are all walled by Skarmory anyway...

Overcentralizing and unhealthy are like the two buzzwords people seem to love to claim when talking about suspect tests, but I haven't seen anything to back it up. You always prepare for ladder trends no matter where you are on the ladder, if that Pokemon is Mega Sableye then you prepare for it.

[10/28/2016 11:42:15 PM] p2: but i lose to dugtrio sab teams
[10/28/2016 11:42:23 PM] xiiaoxin: that's because [redacted, even if everyone knows what i said here] dugtrio is broken
[10/28/2016 11:42:27 PM] p2: because its impossible for me to apply pressure without having my wincon trapped
[10/28/2016 11:42:30 PM] p2: LOL duggy isnt broken
[10/28/2016 11:42:36 PM] p2: its sableye

I sincerely hope everyone does not make the above mistake, because the logic gap here is extremely clear and apparent.

When a Pokemon is slow as hell, less bulky than Keldeo, has the most telegraphed switches in history, and you have issues applying pressure on it, I recommend quitting mons and taking up Tic Tac Toe. The main issue here is that people have problems applying pressure because of Arena Trap, and, let's be honest, this isn't Mega Sableye's fault.

No Ban. At the very least, we should remove trapping as an element, rather than this poor Pokemon that has been unfairly saddled with the effects of another Pokemon altogether, before coming back to it.

Ok, I'll be very very brief here. Trapping has literally been in the game, and used on stall teams to remove breakers since ADV. Getting rid of 1 pokemon is not a bad thing. The reason why you think trapping is broken is because Sableye makes you overly dependent on that one mon in order to win. The problem isn't Dugtrio removing that one mon, but Sableye warping the whole game so whether you win or lose depends pretty much solely on how well you use that one mon in the first place.

 

[KanaKanaKana]

Stall has long since been broken and it's that way because of Mega Sableye. I'm tired of every single time I look at the ladder, the player with the highest GXE is a stall player. Its still that way right now with CK James, last time I checked it was Pokemonisfun. I don't have a long post describing some checks and counters all I know is, if the person with the top GXE is always a stall player literally 100% of the time, something is wrong. Ban.

 

[cmurph]

Stall has long since been broken and it's that way because of Mega Sableye. I'm tired of every single time I look at the ladder, the player with the highest GXE is a stall player. Its still that way right now with CK James, last time I checked it was Pokemonisfun. I don't have a long post describing some checks and counters all I know is, if the person with the top GXE is always a stall player literally 100% of the time, something is wrong. Ban.

Your whole post is factually untrue. Look at the top 10 on the ladder right now. Only like 2 of them are using stall. Stall's always been a frequent presence on the high ladder, but it's never been the dominant play style. And even if it was, why would that necessarily mean banning Sableye?

 

[KanaKanaKana]

Your whole post is factually untrue. Look at the top 10 on the ladder right now. Only like 2 of them are using stall. Stall's always been a frequent presence on the high ladder, but it's never been the dominant play style. And even if it was, why would that necessarily mean banning Sableye?

Top of the ladder is not the same as top GXE. GXE is the best for seeing who wins the most and is the method they use here for seeing if you can vote in the suspect. Player with top GXE in top 10 is CK James with 91.4%, like I said, who is a stall player,
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-465323641

and matching his GXE DANN3DONTQUIT who is also a stall player http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-460423039

And as I've been seeing, the player with the top GXE is always 100% of the time a stall player. It is the dominant playstyle and has long since been the dominant playstyle.

 

[silenced]

Ok, I'll be very very brief here. Trapping has literally been in the game, and used on stall teams to remove breakers since ADV. Getting rid of 1 pokemon is not a bad thing. The reason why you think trapping is broken is because Sableye makes you overly dependent on that one mon in order to win. The problem isn't Dugtrio removing that one mon, but Sableye warping the whole game so whether you win or lose depends pretty much solely on how well you use that one mon in the first place.

I'd be interested in knowing then why the reverse doesn't apply then, or in other words, why trapping moves/abilities aren't broken because they deny you the chances to KO M-Sableye with "insert various wallbreaker/stallbreaker here" especially as people have already said Msableye isn't lacking counters, but its a hell of a lot harder to counter dugtrio/pursuit users when using your team members for their individual roles.

That being said, banning it might be the only solution at this late stage, unless people were willing to delay the start of Gen 7's development to potentially test arena trap/pursuit.

 

[Gammafire]

I'm really on the fence about this. I do see that Mega Sableye is a very centralizing force on the metagame, and it would be nice to see more diversity in stall than Mega Sableye + talonflame or Mega Sableye + Dugtrio + Sheninja.

But at the same time, it seems that some people have forgotten that Sableye is far from the only centralizing presence in the current meta. Titans like Clefable and Mega Charizard-X are also centralizing in that they require good-teambuilding to beat.

For the argument that Sableye makes a bunch of things unviable, plenty of mons in OU are doing the same thing (such as clefable and Zard-X). Snorlax made a bunch of things unviable in GSC, but it was never banned because there were ways to beat it.

But once again, I do see the restrictions that it places on teambuilding. Things like acid spray Tentacruel on stall were only used to get around Sableye. I remember when there was a lot of talk about how the new ORAS megas would function on stall, and then I remember when people realized that Sableye was better than any of the other options because of how easy it was to slap on a stall team with a fairy check and be good to go. I used to suck a battling in early ORAS, but with the most basic of Mega Sableye stall teams I was able to ladder much higher than I should have. Not that Mega Sableye isn't a skill-less thing to use, but it's wrong that it can be that good.

The only other thing that has me on the fence is the overall stability of the meta. When banning something like Aegislash or Geninja, their presence in the meta alone made entire playstyles unviable and made the meta unbalanced. Currently, the meta allows for a lot of diversity, and people have been able to find ways to get around Sableye and the deadly cores it forms on all sorts of playstyles. And Sableye has more than one counter, which can be paired with something to beat dugtrio or sheninja. Gothitelle forced people to have tyranitar or something with shed shell, greninja was only countered by porygon 2, aegislash turned so many scenarios into 50/50s and forced many wallbreakers to run less-helpful coverage, hoopa forced stall teams to adopt more offensive tactics (like having weavile as a pursuit trapper), and it was just impossible to deal with Mega kangaskhan without significant preparation and very specific mons like ferrothorn. Sableye isn't like that, and things like Mega lopunny and Mega Diancie remain as solid checks to sableye that can also deal significant damage to the rest of the team.

So in short, I don't like the restrictions that mega sableye puts on teambuilding, but I don't think that banning something with so many ways to beat is really warranted. But once again, I am mixed about this, and I'm still open to the arguments from both sides.

 

[soul3reaper]

I'd like to reply to Blaze Latias and Game boy. Yes you are right, no m-sableye team goes unprepared for classic wallbreaker such as azumarill and Yzard. However chansey is never a perfect switch in. Or amoongus for that matter. And there are plenty of mixed threats that threaten stall teams. MegaChomp, Salamence, Mega Altaria, and more. Walls have issues, the first is that their only good against one type of attack, mixed walls are generally bad. Chansey IS NOT a mixed wall, It's a special wall primarily.

Besides that, Gardevoir is a solid answer to sableye. It beats amoonguss, sableye, chansey with enough boosts. Is CM M-Gardvoir not a thing?

+2 232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 409-483 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Psyshock beats chansey and amoongus. Gardevoir and altaria are both huge threats to m-sableye and its entire team.

A typical stall team is

M-Sableye
Amoongus/Jirachi/Heatran
Chansey/Porygon2
Clefable
Quagsire/Gastrodon
Skarm/Empoleon

Sableye saved stall. When Aegislash was banned, stall was pretty much dead, due to the prominence of wallbreaker such as M-Gardevoir and M-Medicham. Sableye is the perfect Mon for stall, it glues stall teams together. Stall is still a team archetype and if M-Sableye is removed, Stall will not be playable in the OU Tier. A healthy metagame lets all play styles thrive. Pokemon should only be banned if they create an unhealthy effect on the metagame. M-sableye removal will create an unhealthy effect on the metagame by automatically ending the viability of stall.

Don't Ban.

 

[TFL]

soul3reaper I'm primarily a stall player and cannot disagree more with your sentiment that stall will be dead without Mega Sableye. I was using 'tele' stall with Zard X over Mega Sableye from the Deoxys Speed meta up until now and have consistently done well on ladder, even having numerous alts with 40+ wins in a row. I have seen other non M-Sab stalls do well, too. The biggest issue with them, however, is that they tend to lose to M-Sab stalls, as AJ already said. There will always be things that beat the majority of stalls, but stall teams will always adapt and come back strong.

I'll be voting to ban Mega Sableye because it exacerbates the match up issues stall teams have had for a while and makes for boring/less skillful counter play. Rather than outplaying stall teams, people are now stacking breakers and just hoping for the best, because they kinda have to. And that's a meta I'd rather not have stick around forever.

 

[KztxL7]

Mega Sableye does not fit any of the criteria of what it takes to being banned.

It's not uncompetitive. It doesn't restrict basic functions from that game (Shadow Tag) or turn the game into ridiculous coinflips (Swagger).
It's not overcentralizing. While it makes some pokemon more difficult to use, it is nowhere near the levels of something like Aegislash which outright removed many good pokemon from OU because of it being so common or even like Hoopa-U which forced Pursuit on every team and forced all teams to be offensive or lose.
It is damn sure not broken.

The closest thing is "unhealthy" and its only considered that because people are using passive pokemon against it and complaining about being punished by a pokemon that manages to take advantage of being passive.

Trapping was what made Mega Sableye ridiculous the first time and from what it looks like, trapping has unfortunately done it again. Considering trapping removes a basic function of the game while Magic Bounce just makes an option harder, I think the problem is clear.

 

[thesecondbest]

I would like to give props for gammafire for a good post that looks at both sides of the argument.

Trapping was what made Mega Sableye ridiculous the first time and from what it looks like, trapping has unfortunately done it again. Considering trapping removes a basic function of the game while Magic Bounce just makes an option harder, I think the problem is clear.

Common elements: Mega-Sableye + trapping
You claim trapping is the problem. What if the problem is sableye?
But even if the problem is trapping, it's too late. This is the last suspect we have this gen. Ban sableye if stall is op, don't ban if it's not. Your post concedes that "trapping has done it again", but the choice is not ban dugtrio or ban sableye. So you should agree to ban sableye given the options we have at this juncture.

When you Ctrl+F "Dugtrio" on the first page and get 18 hits...

I would just like to point out that most of the problems can be solved by removing this cancer called trapping. It is not a problem inherent to Mega Sableye. If they replaced Mega Sableye with Mega Slowbro/Venusaur/Whatever you like, your CB Tyranitar stallbreaker is still going to get go poof and you are going to lose. The argument that Mega Sableye is limiting your stallbreakers just does not hold any weight when Dugtrio is trapping wallbreakers like Manaphy, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham...which are all Pokemon you are going to use to break stall anyway. Let's be honest about what the real problem is here.

Mega Sableye's overcentralization issue is also hugely overstated. Has it stopped anyone from using SR on a Pokemon? If I'm running a Hippowdon, I'm probably still going to run Stealth Rock on it. Defensive Lando-T? Garchomp? Same issue. Also they are all walled by Skarmory anyway... Many people seem to think that Clefable/Heatran are the only Pokemon that can set up SR against Mega Sableye. I do not care if this is true, certainly Magic Bounce can stop things like Hippowdon, stop playing so passively, put pressure, weaken them.

Overcentralizing and unhealthy are like the two buzzwords people seem to love to claim when talking about suspect tests, but I haven't seen anything to back it up. You always prepare for ladder trends no matter where you are on the ladder, if that Pokemon is Mega Sableye then you prepare for it. If we look at the tour scene, both SPL, and WCOP, we'd see that Mega Sableye doesn't even force people to run Fire / Fairy types. I actually analyzed that personally, Ground, Steel, Flying, Psychic, Water types are all mandatory on pretty much all the teams, but Fire/Fairy are pretty far down the list.

[10/28/2016 11:42:15 PM] p2: but i lose to dugtrio sab teams
[10/28/2016 11:42:23 PM] xiiaoxin: that's because [redacted, even if everyone knows what i said here] dugtrio is broken
[10/28/2016 11:42:27 PM] p2: because its impossible for me to apply pressure without having my wincon trapped
[10/28/2016 11:42:30 PM] p2: LOL duggy isnt broken
[10/28/2016 11:42:36 PM] p2: its sableye

I sincerely hope everyone does not make the above mistake, because the logic gap here is extremely clear and apparent.

When a Pokemon is slow as hell, less bulky than Keldeo, has the most telegraphed switches in history, and you have issues applying pressure on it, I recommend quitting mons and taking up Tic Tac Toe. The main issue here is that people have problems applying pressure because of Arena Trap, and, let's be honest, this isn't Mega Sableye's fault.

No Ban. At the very least, we should remove trapping as an element, rather than this poor Pokemon that has been unfairly saddled with the effects of another Pokemon altogether, before coming back to it.

Edit:

Regardless of what you use, trapping stallbreakers is just something that stall wants to do because they don't want to be swept by it, and it's a very easy way to remove a threat. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Mega Sableye. I could be running Mega Venusaur, and it would make jack shit of a difference. You're essentially claiming that Mega Sableye is making Dugtrio's effect more prominent, which, while factually untrue, isn't even Mega Sableye's fault.

Same thing here, the choice is not ban dugtrio vs ban sableye, it is ban sableye or not. But people claimed trapping was the problem last time, yet stall is still up there. Many good stall teams - hell the two players with the highest GXE in OU - don't even have trappers, like KanaKanaKana showed. Are those players just really good, or is the team broken? You be the judge.

 

[soul3reaper]

soul3reaper I'm primarily a stall player and cannot disagree more with your sentiment that stall will be dead without Mega Sableye. I was using 'tele' stall with Zard X over Mega Sableye from the Deoxys Speed meta up until now and have consistently done well on ladder, even having numerous alts with 40+ wins in a row. I have seen other non M-Sab stalls do well, too. The biggest issue with them, however, is that they tend to lose to M-Sab stalls, as AJ already said. There will always be things that beat the majority of stalls, but stall teams will always adapt and come back strong.

I'll be voting to ban Mega Sableye because it exacerbates the match up issues stall teams have had for a while and makes for boring/less skillful counter play. Rather than outplaying stall teams, people are now stacking breakers and just hoping for the best, because they kinda have to. And that's a meta I'd rather not have stick around forever.

TFL I see your point. However, The only other viable stally 'glue' if you will, are M-Slowbro, M-Altaria, and Defensive Variants of Mega Latias. Mega Sableye holds a valuable niche in the OU Tier, being the only defensive Magic Bounce user in the game. Classic Stallbreaking would tear most stall teams apart (Hell, Hydreigon can probably stop every stall team with just LO Taunt Roost). Taunt would cripple stall by removing recovery options, which stall primarily relies on. The effects that M-Sableye had on the metagame were what you stated above, stacking breakers. However, If sableye leaves, anyone could slap on a makeshift breaker (Any pok with recovery and taunt....Gliscor?)and chug through without any hassle.

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 244 HP Gliscor: 100-100 (28.4 - 28.4%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Poison Heal

Pretty sad...

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 136-162 (21.1 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

Knock off into EQ.

Without Sableye this would happen.

TL;DR No Ban. Sableye is the stally glue.

 

[playerW17]

Maybe this will force stall to adapt and run things that can beat Taunt as well as certain Status or Hazard stackers?

Even as a stall player, I dont see how this is an issue. Stall shouldn't be able to negate practically every Taunt using mon in the first place, as well as mindlessly beating hazards, and this helps provides adequate counterplay for both sides instead of making stall stupidly matchup based like it is right now.

This even benefits stall, and lets it actually run different builds apart from the ~2 / 3 that realistically exist right now (all of which run practically the same core).

Sableye really isn't inherently broken, but rather I feel like it constrains the tier quite heavily, and this overcentralisation is why I feel it deserves a ban.

 

[Sylveon.]

I think the problem here is not Mega-Sableye, but the recent surge of trapping shenanigans which have emerged to counter the last thing which broke stall i.e. stallbreakers. Since, we already know that mega-sableye has invalidated most of the other methods against stall which are hazards(the hell, stall even has one of the best defoggers in skarm to remove t-spikes) and taunting stuff, as the bulky ones are shut down by mega-sableye and few others like gardevoir(which is not a stallbreaker btw) or talonflame will much rather run wisp for obvious reasons. So, all we are left with is extremely hard hitting stuff like banded tyranitar which are just trapped by duggy. So basically you'll want like 3 stall-breakers in one team, one that doesn't get trapped by weavile, one that evades duggy and one that is physical + hits hard enough to blow through quagsire,skarm etc. Basically 3 stall breakers to be fool proof but then again you are pretty much guaranteed to lose any non-stall matchup as stall breakers generally don't synergise with the team.
Again I'll stress the fact that sableye is not invincible, there are plenty of pokemons which beat it one on one but beating sableye was never the issue, it's just that basically sableye + trapping takes out most win-cons against stall. As far as the hazards go, yes some stuff like heatran/clefable get to set rocks against mega-sableye but does that mean it gets to keep them?
I could go on for days talking about this, but the bottom-line is though mega-sableye + trapping is the biggest issue but banning either of them will lead to a healthier metagame. And NO, it's no reason to say that 6th gen has only like 2 weeks as an Anti-Ban argument as Gen-6 will still be pretty popular like some older gens are, so I'm sure most of you would like to wrap up this issue before 7th gen actually starts.

 

[Finchinator]

There are a lot of arguments on both sides and I totally respect that - I'm quite glad that many posters are sharing their opinions, but I think that the post I'm about to quote and respond to covers a lot of ground and seems to be getting the most attention, so I'm going to direct my response here mainly because there's a lot that contradicts my personal opinion and there are some points made here that I deem as quite lackluster that the general public seems to be disregarding.

Before I proceed, I want everyone to consider the real reason why some people, like myself, see that Sableye does not belong in this tier. Sableye is neither uncounterable, unwallable, nor unbreakable. The argument for pro-ban people is not that Sableye is so amazing on its own that there is no counterplay. I can admit that there are many ways of killing Sableye - this isn't even an argument. However, for those of you undecided voters, please consider Sableye's unhealthy effect on the metagame.

Hide

For most of the history of OU across many generations, hazards, status, and taunting have been key forms of taking out stall. I am not saying that there is some inherent right such that we, as players, are entitled to these options. I am simply illustrating a picture of classical stallbreaking, and how its former role in the metagame is healthier than the stall dynamic we have now. Breaking stall used to be about a wide variety of pressure applications, whether it be with Taunt Gliscor, getting rocks and pivoting in your wallbreakers on double switches, or anything of the sort. With Sableye in the tier, and I am positive we all have witnessed this, the stall dynamic rapidly changed. Firstly, Sableye stops a large majority of the practical uses of hazards. All of the current spikers, which consists of Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and to some degree even Klefki, have almost no chance of getting up hazards vs stall. As for rockers, all of the passive ones like Hippowdon, and defensive Garchomp/Landorus are shut down, but the less obvious ones like Heatran and Clefable are still greatly affected. They (Heatran and Clefable) might theoretically beat Sableye 1v1, but they still are extremely hindered by Knock Off and beaten by other stall mons (trapping and defog). Now, even without Sableye, stall has Dugtrio, Defog, and Rapid Spin to control hazards. When you add Sableye to the mix, getting hazards is pretty much an impossible feat. If it were to be banned, we could see unique strategies and plays open up like a spikes + toxic Ferrothorn. Again, I am not saying that there is a natural right to get hazards vs stall. I am saying that the current impossibility of getting hazards is not a healthy thing. As for taunters, Sableye throws out the use of Taunt Talon, Gliscor, Alakazam, Mew, and more. Now the difference here is that these pokemon actually take smart plays and are not automatic matchup wins.

I bold the last sentence for two reasons: it sets the tone for the entirety of the pro-ban argument (Mega Sableye is "unhealthy") and it, therefore, gives us a more defined window of what to talk address.

The definition of unhealthy in a tiering context can be seen here for those who are unfamiliar (I strongly advise that everyone reads this prior to posting), but I will leave it below for the sake of convenience.

IV.) Unhealthy - elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent

Just to expand on this a bit more, skill(ful play) can be defined as (from the same thread):

I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon

also noteworthy

B.) The majority of our potential suspect discussion will center around the defined versions of uncompetitive, broken, and unhealthy and how a particular suspect element lowers some component of player skill within those 3 constructs.

Now, there are some elements that can get in the way of skill determining the winner of a competitive Pokemon game - the one that seems to be at the heart of every single argument, be it directly or indirectly, is the element of team match-up. Some people get at it indirectly by saying that the lack of hazard play makes it so that they have to bring breakers, which makes playing against stall black-and-white/win-or-loss from team preview while others indicate it more directly. Regardless, I disagree with and am going to directly disprove both of these notions from a practical and fundamental standpoint. As the aforementioned tiering thread said on team match-up:

2.) Team match up is only a concern if no matter what the better player did, he had zero or an extremely slim chance of winning.

Essentially, the crux of every well articulated pro-ban argument boils down to the fact that the presence of Mega Sableye is a large contributor in stall's match-up's being very black-and-white, as I alluded to in the above paragraph. If there was any significant gray area, then this argument would be completely invalidated given the above quote from the tiering thread because there would not be "(zero or) an extremely slim change" for games to be won due to outplaying as opposed to match-up.

Looking at stall from a perspective of someone who has faced it dozens of times in tournaments, test games, and ladder alike, the playstyle's archetypes with Mega Sableye are far from being all "easy win" and "auto loss" from team preview. I have also been in the driver's seat, using Mega Sableye on ABR's stall team in dozens of test games, sadly, and even more during OLT once I hit a decently high part of the ladder. I know someone like ABR himself has far more experience with his stall team and Mega Sableye in general, don't get me wrong, but some of his past games/games he has specifically given people the team to use in are some of the best testaments to the fact that HIS stall team actually has had many competitive, high-level matches that are not determined inherently by match-up. I think the best way to break the ice here is to show some of the higher level games where stall has been used, with and without Mega Sableye, and to judge if it they were competitive and if Mega Sableye factored into the lack of competitiveness, if they weren't competitive (or if it factored into it being competitive, if it was competitive).

Big blurb going into Sable's use in tournaments and some other things with analysis

SPL (Sable stall didn't become much of a thing until midway through this and the metagame was a bit different at the start, but there are commonalities to non-sab meta stall and some other things, so it's all still very noteworthy)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112366 - week 1, cbb vs boudouche
CrashinBoomBang's team: Amoonguss / Chansey / Quagsire / Skarmory / Slowbro / Tyranitar
boudouche's team: Manectric / Keldeo-Resolute / Landorus-Therian / Alakazam / Excadrill / Tornadus-Therian

Doucher was in no way prepared for a stall team because he prepared for CBB to bring his normal offense; therefore, the game was not very competitive (the final score was 2-0, but Boud had no chance to win in a clean, well-played match from both sides). However, there was no Sableye on CBB's team - CBB's team is actually what some variants of non-Sableye meta stall looks like.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-112882 - week 1, daft vs DD
Eric Pryclz's (daft) team: Amoonguss / Chansey / Quagsire / Skarmory / Slowbro / Tyranitar
Destiny Device's team: Garchomp / Thundurus / Bronzong / Latios / Venusaur / Landorus-Therian

Daft uses the same team CBB did, but DD was at least moderately prepared. Daft didn't play the early game all too well while DD did catch a lucky break early on, so this game could've gone either way in an ordinary playing-field, but regardless this was somewhat close and I'd say it's safe to say that this game was competitive (or at least would have been, still sorta was).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-118614 - week 4, ben gay vs ary
craing's team: Mandibuzz / Chansey / Venusaur / Quagsire / Suicune / Doublade
Ary's team: Garchomp / Serperior / Slowbro / Tyranitar / Jirachi / Tornadus-Therian

Chansey of Ben Gay got haxed to shit by Torn-T and then a few other unfortunate things happened, but if you grant so many opportunities with such a passive stall like that (no pursuit or real backbone), the odds of that increase exponentially. With that said, it was a fairly competitive match - both players had a chance to win from the start and there's no denying this, imo. No Sableye here, either.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-133285 - week 6, blunder vs xray
xRay~'s team: Garchomp / Tangrowth / Slowking / Tyranitar / Excadrill / Talonflame
blunderr's team: Amoonguss / Chansey / Quagsire / Skarmory / Slowbro / Tyranitar

This was kinda a blowout from the middle or some point when Mega Chomper started to do work and Quag got crippled...it just kinda fell apart systematically. Xray prepared thoroughly for Stall and beat it in; this game was not competitive. Chomper. No Sable in this one.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-135546 - week 7, tdk vs jirache
Game of Odds's team: Clefable / Alakazam / Rotom-Wash / Heatran / Tyranitar / Latios
TDK's team: Amoonguss / Chansey / Quagsire / Skarmory / Slowbro / Tyranitar

Last game before ABR invented Mega Sable stall - you'll see some Sable as a comparative point in healthy doses soon, I promise. Anyway, this is a game using that same team CBB used, again, and both players had a chance to win. Yea, TDK only won at the end of the day due to hax and had a pretty certain loss had he not gotten lucky vs Alakazam there, but if Tar was played differently and TDK had some momentum in places he didn't, he definitely could've won this game (got his confirmation on this sentiment just now, too), so it's safe to say this game was competitive.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-134492 - the birth of ABR's MegaSab stall
ABR's team: Sableye / Weavile / Skarmory / Chansey / Amoonguss / Quagsire
Tesung's team: Clefable / Starmie / Ferrothorn / Diancie / Volcarona / Landorus-Therian
★Tesung: o god

This was a slaughter; tesung had no chance to break Mega Sable stall. It was not competitive, but nobody had really ever seen something like this before, so you have to give it time to settle in before drawing much of a conclusion, in my opinion.

WCOP

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-170539 - Fuga vs PDC
THE PDC SHOW's team: Sableye / Clefable / Chansey / Skarmory / Alomomola / Gliscor
Omfuga's team: Lopunny / Ferrothorn / Clefable / Landorus-Therian / Starmie / Tyranitar

I mean Fuga won easily, but PDC kinda fucked up and while that team Fuga used has been all over in OLT and after it was initially revealed in this match, it's not an auto-win vs Stall, imo. It can pressure stall well, but it's a competitive game while PDC's stall wasn't the norm and it was played poorly, PDC could've won and Sable would've played a big role in hazard control in that scenario, but it didn't make things unhealthy in any way, shape, or form...it made the game close given how things played out and both teams needed things to go to win the game, so there's nothing wrong here.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-171443 - alastor vs asuka
Alastor Law's team: Raikou / Garchomp / Skarmory / Slowbro / Sableye / Gardevoir
Asuk4's team: Zapdos / Altaria / Doublade / Quagsire / Mandibuzz / Chansey

Shitty stall team, prepared opposing team (kinda weird w/ regular Sab tho), and poor play...not indicative of much

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-171659 - ren-chon vs tricking
Ren-chon's team: Clefable / Garchomp / Manaphy / Scizor / Landorus-Therian / Amoonguss
Re-Cion's team: Sableye / Weavile / Skarmory / Chansey / Amoonguss / Quagsire

Ren-Chon wasn't prepared for any stall, ABR stall won, that simple - I reckon that any variant of stall or really any fat team would've won unless Mana 6-0d them, so it's just lazy building

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-172093 - Laurel vs League
Laurel's team: Gliscor / Chansey / Suicune / Quagsire / Skarmory / Sableye
iloveleague's team: Clefable / Medicham / Latios / Garchomp / Rotom-Wash / Ferrothorn

I mean it was kinda a weird, mediocre battle, but both dudes very much had a chance to win and while MegaCham could've been used defensively for Cham and support wise, for checking spikes and such, it clearly wasn't the decisive factor here as League won and could've won in a clean game, pretty clearly. A team that had an answer to stall, but didn't over-prepare or bring an outright breaking core won against stall in a competitive (albeit kinda poorly played on both sides at parts) game - this has happened a lot of times, too, with and without Sable in the equation, but so many people completely overlook this prospect.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-172100 - abr vs ben gay
ABR's team: Sableye / Dugtrio / Latias / Tangrowth / Heatran / Togekiss
craing's team: Diancie / Magnezone / Dragonite / Seismitoad / Talonflame / Mew

Idk if this qualifies as stall, but I mean for the sake of being inclusive and fair, this was not competitive, but Sab did nothing here and it was basically DNite fucking ABR's attempt at some funky early SabDug team up.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-168427 - HSA vs JohnYiu
JohnxYiu's team: Latios / Volcarona / Gyarados / Landorus-Therian / Jirachi / Lucario
HSA's team: Sableye / Weavile / Skarmory / Chansey / Amoonguss / Quagsire

As lopsided as this looked because of how fucking poorly HSA played, this could've went either way -- HSA himself admits he could've won if he played well and John's team is really just a bunch of strongmons/sweepers thrown together, it's not a 100% win here and ABR said this in the chat, himself, during the game on smogtours. This had potential to be a close, could-go-either-way competitive game and Sab really was a non-factor here, but the stall team in general was not over-prepared for and yet not under-prepared for either by John's team and had prospect to be in for a close match if HSA didn't do...many bad things in his gameplay lmao (cwl)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-170503 - Sakis vs Snou
Sakis's team: Garchomp / Excadrill / Tyranitar / Keldeo / Heatran / Celebi
Snou's team: Sableye / Gastrodon / Azumarill / Mew / Skarmory / Clefable

Saki's team was kinda standard looking, but it had Celebi and MegaChomp, so not so much in practice, but it still had a shot to beat stall, making the game competitive and match-up not the deciding factor. Sable didn't do anything ungodly here, as far as I'm concerned, and Snou won because he was the better player, for the most part. Nothing much more to it, no strings attached.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-171669 - c0mp vs fruitdealer
c0mp00r's team: Slowbro / Talonflame / Tangrowth / Excadrill / Latios / Landorus-Therian
plopdealer's team: Slowbro / Sableye / Chansey / Skarmory / Serperior / Excadrill

Fruitdealer used a pretty damn stally team, Serp was the lone difference from sorta standard stall mons (Exca was SR Spin Mold Breaker, so it fits on stall kinda). This game came down to the wire and neither played all that poorly, imo, with both teams being legitimate - this was competitive, close, and Sab did nothing that stood out to me as being unhealthy. Imo, this is another testament to Sab being healthy

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-177072 - quaggster vs alexander
quaggsterrr's team: Sableye / Clefable / Reuniclus / Gliscor / Suicune / Dugtrio
Alexander's team: Ferrothorn / Latios / Garchomp / Tornadus-Therian / Slowbro / Clefable

Alex wasn't prepared for stall, Quaggster brought stall, and Quaggster won. This is how most of the games that are uncompetitve go and this isn't a testament to MegaSab at all; this is simply poor or lazy building by one players' behalf and poor/lazy building can get you burnt vs things that aren't stall, too, if the circumstances arise, so I don't think this is conclusive whatsoever.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-175128 - tdk vs mob barley
TDK's team: Latios / Heatran / Amoonguss / Mandibuzz / Keldeo-Resolute / Diancie
Lysergic's team: Sableye / Poliwrath / Clefable / Chansey / Cresselia / Skarmory

This game was kinda cringe and decided by multiple crits for TDK, but I feel like this could've gone either way had TDK handled things aggressively. I'd say match-up played a slight role here as TDK wasn't exactly well-prepared, but he had beyond a shot in the dark and, given what I quoted from the tiering thread before about match-up, this is not enough to use match-up as a means of labeling something as unhealthy and while, sure, MegaSab played a role in this game, it was nothing that seemed to stand-out - it was just another Pokemon on a team in a competitive game and that's what it often is, when people prepare sufficiently for stall and aren't using one of the few strong breakers/breaker cores that make stall auto-lose, pretty much (and stall auto-losing can't be held for or against it, it's just a facet of the style that has no correlation to MegaSab being suspected, imo, just like people building poor teams and being underprepared can't be held for/against it because encouraging/making possible lazy teambuilding shouldn't be a reason for tiering decisions, ever).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-177639 - fv vs k12
K-12TheMadchine's team: Sableye / Weavile / Skarmory / Chansey / Amoonguss / Quagsire
FlamingVictini's team: Landorus-Therian / Tyranitar / Alakazam / Cobalion / Amoonguss / Rotom-Wash

I have no clue how the fuck FV did it with the CM Cobalion and all that..I don't think k12 played optimally, but w/ Coba and MegaZam and general pressure, I reckon both players had a shot, even if K12 seemed to have a big advantage from team preview and, I mean, FV did win, so I guess this was a competitive game despite it being kinda odd.

No sab stall in tour playoffs last season, unfortunately, so not much more to go through - will go through OLT to further prove this point if I must

Here are some noteworthy statistics, too

In SPL, Mega Sableye won 4 of the 7 ORAS OU games it was used in that were recorded in the Usage Stats thread, but, once MegaSab stall became a thing and people adapted (or at least should've, but didn't and were lazy, which is on them in building) during WCOP 2016, the usage stat line on it was: | 36 | Sableye | 12 | 5.00% | 41.67% | kinda disappointing. This isn't strong evidence for or against it because usage stats can reflect poor play, poor building, etc. and it's just generally flawed to draw too strong conclusions off of them, especially if it's a smaller sample-size, which this is, but it certainly doesn't do Mega Sableye any justice despite many people noticing it being something that needed suspect attention as more time elapsed and the archetype developed into a popular one.

If it wasn't clear after that, which I hope you at least skimmed through, Mega Sableye stall teams are not totally match-up based. Mega Sableye stall teams can have competitive games and they do have competitive games a fair amount of the time. It is on the builder of the opposing team's shoulders if they fall-flat against Mega Sableye stall and cannot break them no matter what - that is either being lazy in trying to cut a corner or simply lackluster teambuilding - if I didn't have any revenge killer, then I wouldn't do well against offense, either, while if I didn't have consistent offensive presence and/or a hard-hitter, I wouldn't do well against balanced teams. It is true that the means of having success against stall are more defined and definite than the others, but that doesn't change the dynamic given the host of opportunities and the fact that, in practical terms as I very clearly showed above, it still tends to work out sufficiently. At the same time, if you prepare thoroughly for stall, then you can and will win almost all of the time because that's the risk that running stall entails in any competitive tier - if you have a bad match-up and your opponent doesn't fuck up when you're using full stall, you're losing. There is no reason whatsoever to fundamentally change stall as the general dynamic will still hold true and this suspect ladder is currently a strong testament to that, but, more reliably, past stall teams that lacked Mega Sableye like the one used multiple times in SPL (first by CBB week 1), that is also good in a non-Mega Sab metagame, is generating similar results and competitiveness to MegaSab stall. I didn't even want to get into this subset of a point, but in replacing Mega Sab, you open up plenty of options on stall - you can now be threatened/broken by less Pokemon/sets/cores/etc. than beforehand in return for losing convenient hazard counterplay (which a lot of people are making up with use of dual-defog, which seems to be working very well). Overall, you're just trading off ways of being broken - as generations continue to pile on, stall and stallbreaking both will gain tools in every OU generation and this is no stranger to that, but there is no standout reason, there is no epidemic involving stall's viability or unhealthiness in the metagame that warrants any tiering action whatsoever and I am adamant about that after giving this a thorough analysis.

I will give a specific response to the remainder of this post for the sake of closure and potentially reinstilling some key points with more specifics being incorporated, but the general gist of my argument is above.

What Sableye does, in essence, is make the stall matchup a pre-decided battle. Without hazards and taunting, most creative methods of stallbreaking are disabled. This is why we see so many stall games decided turn 1, and the requirement for specific pokemon to be used to break stall. There is no strategizing and thought in stall breaking for the most part. You either have that one Crawdaunt/Heracross or you don't (these don't even singlehandedly beat stall). I believe that banning Sableye will change this dynamic, and cause a flourishing of creative methods as a stall countermeasure.

I find it almost hypocritical of you to say this because you've had many close match-ups using stall, yourself, be it on the ladder during OLT or in tournaments. Regardless of that, however, because I am in no way trying to personally attack you as you are simply sharing your opinion and I wholeheartedly respect and value that, I do not agree with this analysis at all and the contents of my analysis of the battles before and the general premise of high-level teambuilding directly contradicts the notion that your Mega Sableye stall is predominantly match-up based --- it is not. If you wish to play people who build teams poorly/lazily, then perhaps it might seem this way, but that's viewing things through a skewed lens and it's been fairly set-in-stone that there are sufficient outs and means of at least making it a fair fight against your stall team.

I do very much understand that the 'conventional' means of breaking stall that aren't direct attacking/sweeping are put in check, to an extent, due to the presence of Mega Sableye and you have noted this in a proper fashion - that's a good foundation for an argument and I acknowledge this. However, there is nothing beyond a foundation; there is nothing to build upon when anyone tries to make a truly substance-based pro-ban argument because there is no problem with stall or Mega Sableye in the ORAS OU metagame, at the moment. Just because what's normal is out of the equation doesn't automatically warrant tiering action, especially when the alternative means of breaking stall - that pool of breakers and annoyances and so on and so forth - got much larger this generation and the tier's playerbase has taken full advantage of that, as I elaborated upon before.

In saying that "you either have that one Crawdaunt/Heracross or you don't" in regards to playing and having a competitive match against current meta stall is bullshit. You have lost with stall against a plethora of teams lacking either of those two and so have I and many others, cleanly. And beyond specific losses or potential hiccups in the record of stall's usage, there have been consistent defeats or at least possible defeats, meaning that the game was healthy and competitive, by simply well-built bulky-offensive or offensive teams that hit-hard, provide momentum over slower, passive teams, and string together some solid play, which has been demonstrated in many games that I analyzed above. You do need a breaker of some sort or a 'breaking core', but the pool of Pokemon that fit into those categories is far wider than you give it credit to be and that misrepresents the playstyle and inherently flaws your argument.

Perhaps you're looking at things in a linear fashion as it's true that very few things can, standalone, threaten your full stall team, but in the context of a game full of momentum and many other variables that come into play each and every turn, there are so many scenarios that arise in each game that can favor each player and, often times, teams that lack the Pokemon that makes stall click "x" from turn 1 can still fight it out with a chance to win because of giving themselves a path to victory with a well-constructed team that might not seem directly evident at first for the stall user. Pokemon is not a linear game - Pokemon is a complex game and the complexity of it tends to haunt the passive, stallier teams out there and that sentiment has been attested to by many of the above games and many things I have referred to, so, once again, your "you either have one of Craw/hera or you don't" is far-off.

If you are not yet convinced that Sableye has a negative effect on the metagame, there is not much else that can be done.

Unfortunate.

If your issue with banning Sableye, however, is that you only believe that we should ban outright broken pokemon, then maybe that can be changed. The goal of the tiering process is, at its very core, to improve the metagame we all play. I understand the need for a criteria of suspecting/banning, but these are mere guidelines, and thus you should not only see powerhouses as ban-worthy. If you want to act in line with the ideals of smogon tiering as a whole, you would vote to improve the tier. This does not mean you have to ban Sableye. This means that if you feel Sableye is an unhealthy contributor to the tier, you must vote ban, regardless of what these specific guidelines defining brokenness say.

After reading this, I hope you have come to the same conclusion that I have. Ban Sableye.

I just wish to say that I do, however, agree with most of this sentiment. As stated in the thread I alluded to and linked above, a Pokemon can be banworthy based on being unhealthy or uncompetitve, not just broken. With that said, that doesn't mean that there is any tiering convention that enables you to vote on sheer convenience and that's what a vast majority of pro-ban posters/arguments are (not yours). There is no "easy way out", there is no "this is annoying" clause, and there is no "I don't like it, so let's ban it" line-of-logic and there never should be in tiering...that would cause so many potential ripple-downs and logical fallacies in present and future scenarios that can and will arise that our whole tiering system could plausibly be ruined as a byproduct of it. Stick to the status quo of banworthy clauses and tiering conventions, not making up novel, unprecedented reasoning that is not passable (this isn't aimed at ABR, it's aimed at the general public, branching off of the sentiment I am expressing in response/agreement with ABR's last paragraph).

Do not ban Sablenite.

 

[njnp]

This is a video on the sableye suspect. Me and mostly Snowtop had a good discussion on the suspect sadly had to end abruptly. I feel like posting a video be better than being a based lord like finch with text. Hope This Is Fine.

edit: start at 3:50 for suspect talk

 

[420LegitShucks]

Mega Sableye? Again? I'm starting to wonder if the OU council hates Mega Sableye, or if it really is that broken of a Pokemon that it deserves 2 suspect tests. But I guess I'll put in my two cents, as I always have.

First off, very few times have I ever encountered Mega Sableye, and the few times I have, it's been paired with Shedinja or I've straight up OKHOed it with Azumarill. The arguments for banning it is that Team Preview decides whether you win or lose, but let's be real, any Pokemon could have that same effect. As I've seen in other arguments, Mega Sableye is basically the glue that holds stall together, and banning it would make stall unviable. It's not impossible to beat stall with Mega Sableye, you just need to prepare. Mega Diancie is very good at beating Mega Sableye and is a stallbreaker that works relatively well. BTW, if Calm Mind Mega Diancie is still viable, that works even better. And now, I hear your fingers tapping on your keyboards, "But Chansey beats it 1 on 1!" That's the reason other Pokemon exist. If Mega Diancie beats Mega Sableye, that clears the way for another stallbreaker to beat Chansey, or just beat Chansey itself if its running Psyshock (which has to be viable). IMO, Mega Sableye isn't the problem, it's the opponents fault for not considering it during teambuilding. It doesn't "restrict teambuilding" like Aegislash did (oh god Aegislash), it's just a threat that people should consider, like Clefable, which is S Rank as of now (I think), or Mega Charizard X (which 6-0s unprepared teams). "Restricts teambuilding" is an argument that could slapped onto any Pokemon that is a top threat, like Clefable. I can't tell you how many times I've lost by not considering Clefable while teambuilding. But not Mega Sableye. To sum up everything, it's not "restricting teambuilding", it's not unbreakable, it's easy to deal with, just like stall always has been.

If I do get to vote, I'm voting Do Not Ban.

 

[mmkzero0]

Sableye, again. Earlier this year in conjunction with Shadow Tag, now on it'a own. Both times I questioned the sheer fact this thing got suspected.

Sableye is a great Mon, especially for teams or other Mons that need hazard control or just something that can deal with status. Especially balanced and Stall teams benefit from it's great typing, magic bounce and raw defensive stats.
Though it has it's fair share of weaknesses; coming to my mind are scald burns, fire types (Zard Y...) and fairy mons. All three things mentioned are extremely common in the OU tier and demand Sableye to have teammates that can deal with them.

Additionally we have threads like Mega Bunny completely shitting on it, and Clefable as a common counter.

Though I don't wanna talk much on that regard, but what would happen if Sableeye is sure to go?

Mega Medicham. This Mon is already a beast, 2hko'ing stuff that resist his STAB or straight up ohko's. Not many mons can claim to 2hko Clef, one of the most dangerous mons, and do the same to LandoT with a Zen Headbutt or well predicted Ice Punch. Sableye is one of it's only true checks/counter. With a Stab immunity and Access to Fake Out it can live any other hit (elemental punches) and proceed to burn or deal back high dmg with Foul Play. With Sableye gone this thing would surely become a problem.
Of course this is only a possebility

 

[HailFall]

@ people who say "stall will be bad without mega sableye: Stall doesnt have a right to be viable but it would still exist even without mega sableye, as can be seen on the suspect ladder. The point is that banning mega sableye would make stall a lot more fair to play against and make it less matchup based cheese as there are more routes of counterplay available such as properly using hazards, and running taunt mons. There will be a lot less "lose at team preview" matchups against stall provided you prepare for it to some extent.

 

[bludz]

In general when testing a suspect, the reasoning for it to be banned is based on fulfilling one of the following three criteria: broken, uncompetitive, unhealthy.

I've made a post in one of the previous suspects where I claimed Mega Sableye is not uncompetitive. Granted SR Clef has gained traction and it limits one of my points slightly, SR Clef also gained traction to keep hazard up against Latios more easily, not just to pressure Sab stall teams.

I don't think Mega Sableye is broken, either. To go through the criteria for brokenness really quickly:

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) Important to note that it is a relative statement; a 200/200/200/200/200/200 BST Pokemon with standard movepool would be broken in a metagame where the average is say, 100/100/100/100/100/100, not where the average is 200/200/200/200/200/200
B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
D.) Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but aren't necessarily entirely so.
1.) BP was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to match up, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
2.) While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it.

A) Statswise, it's clearly not broken.
B) It doesn't dictate or require usage. A standard team without Sableye doesn't face a large disadvantage. It also doesn't limit team building skill - although it may limit team building itself this is different and I'll touch on that later.
C) It doesn't have only very niche checks and counters - Clefable, the best mon in the tier, counters it to hell and back. There are plenty of other checks and there isn't some lack of ways to defeat Mega Sableye itself.

I think if there's going to be an argument for Mega Sableye to go it would have to be that it's uncompetitive. And I think the main argument we've been seeing so far - and the one I would deem the most sound and logical for pro-ban voters to take - is that Mega Sableye exacerbates team matchup concerns in an already threat-heavy ORAS OU metagame, and creates too many "unwinnable" matchups.

Is it true that Sableye increases matchup concerns? I believe so. This could be said of most any meta defining Mega Evolution - that it influences team building to an extent that forces you to account for it. With enough big threats around, matchup dependency increases because covering everything is totally impossible. I will grant that Mega Sableye's matchup influence is different than that of other pokemon though. For example, if you are trying to cover Mega Charizard X, chances are you will be set if you have a Landorus-T and a Slowbro on your team. With Mega Sableye, having Clefable and Suicune on your team is definitely enough to switch into it and beat it. However, what Sableye offers in team support is not what it walls or beats 1v1, it's the ability to prevent many tactics which are used for stallbreaking. The main ones being hazard stacking, Taunt, and the usage of status moves.

Let's be clear - stall has ways to beat hazard stacking (Defog), and status moves (Heal Bell). Taunt is a bit of a different monster and can be pretty difficult for stall teams to deal with depending on the user. But Sableye does make dealing all these things easier, and being able to KO it with a few pokemon 1v1 does not mean you stop it from doing its job. If your pokemon that beat it aren't the ones setting up hazards, or one of those other stallbreaking tactics, then Sableye can still switch into your hazard setters and Taunters, and proceed to switch out when you bring out a counter. If hazards are not up on their side of the field, this is an extremely low cost maneuver for them as well.

So to summarize this part really quickly - being able to check or counter Mega Sableye is not the same as being able to set up hazards on it. To truly counter what Sableye DOES is a larger issue than simply having a Calm Mind Clefable. Having a Stealth Rock Clefable (which has gained a lot of traction), on the other hand, does mitigate one of Sableye's primary functions to an extent.

The real question becomes: does this additional function of Mega Sableye, based on its ability Magic Bounce, influence team matchups more than other meta defining pokemon to the point that it is truly uncompetitive for creating a ton of unwinnable matchups?

For starters, I do believe without Sableye, stall would still exist. Hell, the first game I played on this ladder was against double defog stall with Zapdos and Skarmory (and you bet I had problems keeping hazards up). Stall will find ways to counter team many standard archetypes regardless of whether we have Sableye or not. But I have found Sableye stall more difficult to break in general, and I do believe that it forces slightly more specific breakers, or combinations of breakers given the prevalence of trapping on all stall (not just Mega Sab) teams. I do think Mega Sableye enhances trapping for reasons stated by many others: the trappers are less likely dealing with hazards every time they come in, which increases their odds of performing their role.

I think at this point it really comes down to some level of individual perspective. Even if you agree that Mega Sableye increases team matchup issues more than other pokemon in the tier, at what point is it too much? It's basically impossible to truly quantify this influence. Personally, I think Magic Bounce is a truly ridiculous ability and Mega Sableye is the best user. I would like to see it go, on a personal level, just because I really hate the influence this ability has on games (and I would really like to see Magic Bounce gone in general if not for Mega Diancie, which I believe does not have the traits to fully abuse the ability). But that doesn't mean making that selfish vote is what's best for the metagame. In trying to look at it objectively as possible, I don't see anything that tells me Mega Sableye clearly needs to go. While I think it does exacerbate matchup problems in the meta, and moreso than most other mons, I'm not sure that it really creates unwinnable matchups all that often. Most stall teams in general are extremely matchup dependent because they attempt to counter the most common strategies used in a metagame and are thus weak to certain slightly less used breakers or cores. Does Sableye amplify this to an extent? Sure. But I just don't think it creates so many unwinnable matchups that we can classify it as uncompetitive. Don't Ban

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Just a friendly reminder that BROKENNESS != CENTRALISATION (or not always anyways).

I don't honestly feel I can contribute too much to the discussion that hasn't already been via some of the above posters. I'll touch on some common arguments I've seen in some places regarding the suspect, and will no doubt be used multiple times throughout this thread, probably as I'm writing this.

"It's too late in ORAS!" - Much like Generation 5 and Generation 4 are still played in tours today, Gen 6 will also very likely see play in tours. This means that if we ban MSab now, it won't go to waste in the long run. While more people will be more likely to play Gen 7, Gen 6 will still see play and as such, a balanced meta for Gen 6, even at the end, means a more interesting and balanced past gen tour scene.
"Mega Sableye isn't broken!" - It's not, and I doubt anyone is saying that seriously. On it's own, it's breakable and easy to switch in on. However, with a good team behind it, these issues are reduced pretty drastically. The support it provides stall and how heavily it influences stallbreaking in teambuilding (a notable degree of centralisation) is why it's being tested.
"Mega Sableye has way too many checks and counters to be banworthy!" - See above.

"It's annoying!" - So? Chansey's extremely annoying too, do we see a test for Chansey happening?

Now, my thoughts. I'll be honest, I'm not really a good enough player to make it to the parts of ladder where stall is more commonplace. But, as someone who builds a lot of teams (none of which are particularly stand-out in quality), I have to take Mega Sab into account a LOT. A shitload of my teams have Heatran just for this thing. Rocks on Clef is just wasting an otherwise extremely useful slot for one Pokemon that you won't even see in 10% of your matches for fear of having a very uphill matchup vs Stall, not to mention you're putting yourself at huge risk of being Amoongus bait, and spore sacking a potentially very useful Pokemon is not something you want to deal with. Not to mention that stall like Tele stall now has answers to make Heatran's stealth rocking

Furthermore, Mega Sableye by itself has made many stallbreakers or sets of stallbreakers far less viable. Examples? Mew and non-SD Gliscor. I didn't actually play competitively in XY, but I hear Mew was quite the stallbreaker. The fact MSab has turned one of XY's top stallbreakers into a shadow of it's former self should be a testament to how centralising it is. Ah, and Gliscor. Better run SD on that thing or you're doing nothing to MSab and therefore nothing to the rest of the team until Sab's gone. It's nothing like what Aegi was like, but making otherwise top tier threats, in this case, to stall, far less viable by MSab's near omnipresence on stall sounds awfully remniscient of what Aegi did. Oh yeah, and it also basically mandates usage on stall due to the immense utility and checking of otherwise difficult to stop threats it offers. No, I'm not comparing MSab to Aegi, Aegi destroyed the tier on it's own and had pretty much no counters, and MSab doesn't invalidate anywhere near the number of 'mons Aegi did. Of course, you could use similar arguments for Chansey, in that it makes a lot of special attackers a lot less viable, but at least you can Taunt it and make it an almost non-entity, nor does Chansey provide ridiculous levels of support for it's team (emphasis on ridiculous).

Finally, while the meta has to a degree adapted, stall has adapted in turn, most notably with the rise of Tele stall. The prior MSab rocks setting answers were either bad outside of beating MSab (Rocks Clef), or are now trapped and removed by Duggy (Heatran) or just mindlessly Defogged on by Zappy and Skarm (SD Rocks Lando-T in the case of the latter).

As you can tell, despite the fact I'll likely be incapable of getting reqs, I am Pro Ban.

Oh yay, posts to respond to popped up while writing the above. Here's a response to one that irked me a bit

Let's not make an absurdly large post now shall we?

Um, has anyone actually talked about Trick room in this thread? Why are you bringing it up? Trick Room is not a good playstyle generally due to how limited the trick room turns are and how priority completely bypasses TR's speed inverting shenanigans.

Your argument that it has to spend a turn to mega evolve and put itself at risk to be able to keep hazards away is put on shaky ground by the fact that a lot of MSab run Fake Out for a secure mega evolution nowadays (54% MSab run Fake Out according to 1695 stats).

Also your whole argument of it being "suspicious timing" just reeks of absurd conspiracy theory. Are you really suggesting Smogon is anti stall when the STag, Aegi retest, and MSab test(s) have literally been the only ones that have harmed or potentially harmed the viability of stall, when every other test and ban has been for the benefit of stall? And Smogon's had like 13 suspect tests this gen, including the current one. Of the 13 suspects we've had, only 3 have harmed or looked into possibly reducing stall's viability, including the Aegi retest (Aegi harmed stall's viability more than it helped due to it's effective uncounterabillity), so 10 suspect tests have been to potentially help stall (Gren, Aegi, Lando-I, MegaMaw, Mega Luke (but that should've been quickbanned imo), Hoopa-U, Genesect, Deos (who monopolised the hazard game to a similar degree, but not way, MSab does now), Mega Meta (though it wasn't banned), and Swagger (which made stall games in general a lot more RNG based)) - a 1 to 3 ratio. You can hardly complain Smogon's anti stall after all that. Also MMedi does have counters not named MSab, one of which is kept down in viability by MSab itself in Mew. Just because MSab's gone doesn't mean MMedi's going to be an unstoppable stall annihilator. If anything, MSab going *may* make MMedi less viable to a degree, as Balance and certain offense teams will be a lot more inclined to use Mew, one of MMedi's counters (with a defensive spread), or at least VERY solid checks.

There were a number of other posts I disagreed with but my above arguments dealt with most of those already.

I only said peculiar/suspicious only because I think this suspect is slightly late, that's all.
It's true that Gen 6 OU would probably still be played past the months of S&M - but will it be as relevant? Also, have any suspect tests of Gen's 4/5 actually been carried out in the past couple of years?

Also, I think with you saying 'MMedi does have counters not named MSab' - I think you're contradicting yourself a bit. If we're considering counterplay vs Megacham, then... other than the hassle around hazards, what makes Sableye more of a culprit then, say, Clef/Talonflame/Doublade etc.? Oh right Def Mew... well... that's not 'nerfing' Mega Medicham - it's just people aren't going to use it as much, yet it's still the same mon. As far as i'm aware: Megacham seems, I daresay, to be a flavor of the month - and you seem to be suggesting that Def Mew will be more of that if Mega Sableye ends up in ubers.