np: ORAS UU Stage 3.1 - Sex on Fire [Victini Remains BL]

[Lord Wallace]

I think koko brought up valid points about some of the ban arguments (maybe not very elegantly but w/e) and I admit in my first post I came off as wanting to keep Victini out to "preserve the meta", so I guess it's time to do some clarification on my thoughts and why I think it should be kept BL.

1. Not a positive influence on the metagame. People in this thread just won't shut up about "the real problems" (I don't disagree about that btw) without acknowledging that Victini does very little to fix or balance out any of UU's existing unhealthy presences. Just because Gatr and Pidgeot are the "ugly" doesnt mean we keep the "bad".

2. I think BandTini is busted, and the fact that this isn't the only set it's limited to makes it worse. I'm gonna sound like a broken record because I already covered most of this, but seriously wtf does the Victini user ever have to lose by clicking V Create? It dents freaking everything. "B-but Darke what about the stat drops and Pursuit and bulky Water types and Salamence and-" no shut up, if your opponent has to rely on Pursuit trapping you then Victini has probably already done it's job, and if you got trapped before Victini killed what you wanted it to, that's probably your fault, not Victini's.

Calcs for thought:
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 254-300 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
that's your counter?
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 156-183 (38.9 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers aka Swampert's only form of recovery
that's your counter?
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 113-133 (28.7 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
O-ok I'll give you tha-
0- SpA Victini Glaciate vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 204-244 (51.9 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
lol nvm

None of this is even taking U-Turn into account and how much dumber it makes this set.

Oh wait I forgot something didn't I? The V Create drops and why they don't matter, or at least not as much as some want to make it seem. Nobody is really giving Victini a lot of credit for it's 100/100/100 bulk, and I'm about to explain why you should, because it's a part of what got Landorus-I, imo a pretty similar mon (versatile, splashable, and well rounded wallbreaker), banned in it's tier. I touched on this a bit in the Research Week thread.

252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Yikes.

You wanna Pursuit trap Victini? Ok that's cool but if Victini is healthy you have to play a 50/50 or Victini just kills your Pursuit trapper too along with whatever else it just trashed. Lovely.

This thing can live STAB Scalds from some of UU's most prominent defensive Water types even at -1, and easily at -0, enough for another switch in to Stealth Rocks for likely another kill in most cases. How is that not even a little concerning? Or a factor in this decision?
After SR and a V Create drop, you still have an overwhelming chance of surviving Mega Aerodactyl's Aerial Ace, forcing it into Stone Miss, and if Aero does happen to miss and also happened to switch into Stealth Rocks.....
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 231-272 (76.7 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Is that a poor and incredibly situational example? Absolutley.
So why did I show it to you? Because it's a situation in which the V Create drops did not guarantee the RK and for a tad bit of perspective regarding Victini's defensive stats and how it can and does matter in practice.

I think I'd have a vastly different opinion on this suspect if Victini was this glass cannon that feared taking any hit and that V Create drops guaranteed that it will die to any hit, but clearly that isn't the case.
With all of this into consideration I believe Victini does it's job too well with extreme consistency to be considered a healthy presence. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with me on this I simply wanted to show where I and perhaps others on the pro-BL side may be coming from.

 

[Ununhexium]

Hey so maybe I'm just missing something but aren't CB Victini supposed to use a Jolly nature

 

[slated]

I think koko brought up valid points about some of the ban arguments (maybe not very elegantly but w/e) and I admit in my first post I came off as wanting to keep Victini out to "preserve the meta", so I guess it's time to do some clarification on my thoughts and why I think it should be kept BL.

1. Not a positive influence on the metagame. People in this thread just won't shut up about "the real problems" (I don't disagree about that btw) without acknowledging that Victini does very little to fix or balance out any of UU's existing unhealthy presences, but ok this is still a really shaky reason to keep it banned so let's move on to #2.

2. I think BandTini is busted, and the fact that this isn't the only set it's limited to makes it worse. I'm gonna sound like a broken record because I already covered most of this, but seriously wtf does the Victini user ever have to lose by clicking V Create? "B-but Darke what about the stat drops and Pursuit and bulky Water types and Salamence and-" no shut up, if your opponent has to rely on Pursuit trapping you then Victini has probably already done it's job, and if you got trapped before Victini killed what you wanted it to, that's your fault, not Victini's.

Calcs for thought:
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 254-300 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
that's your counter?
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 156-183 (38.9 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers aka Swampert's only form of recovery
that's your counter?
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 113-133 (28.7 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
O-ok I'll give you tha-
0- SpA Victini Glaciate vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 204-244 (51.9 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
lol nvm

None of this is even taking U-Turn into account and how much dumber it makes this set.

Oh wait I forgot something didn't I? The V Create drops and why they don't matter, or at least not as much as some want to make it seem. Nobody is really giving Victini a lot of credit for it's 100/100/100 bulk, and I'm about to explain why you should, because it's a part of what got Landorus-I, imo a pretty similar mon (versatile, splashable, and well rounded wallbreaker), banned in it's tier. I touched on this a bit in the Research Week thread.

252 Atk Choice Band Krookodile Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Yikes.

You wanna Pursuit trap Victini? Ok that's cool but if Victini is healthy you have to play a 50/50 or Victini just kills your Pursuit trapper too along with whatever else it just trashed. Lovely.

This thing can live STAB Scalds from some of UU's most prominent defensive Water types even at -1, and easily at -0, enough for another switch in to Stealth Rocks for likely another kill in most cases. How is that not even a little concerning? Or a factor in this decision?
After SR and a V Create drop, you still have an overwhelming chance of surviving Mega Aerodactyl's Aerial Ace, forcing it into Stone Miss, and if Aero does happen to miss and also happened to switch into Stealth Rocks.....
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 231-272 (76.7 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Is that a poor and incredibly situational example? Absolutley.
So why did I show it to you? For a tad bit of perspective regarding Victini's defensive stats and how it can and does matter.

I think I'd have a vastly different opinion on this suspect if Victini was this glass cannon that feared taking any hit and that V Create drops guaranteed that it will die to any hit, but clearly that isn't the case.
With all of this into consideration I believe Victini does it's job too well with extreme consistency to be considered a healthy presence. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with me on this I simply wanted to show where I and perhaps others on the pro-BL side may be coming from.

It's a decently solid argument, but I just had a nitpick about the calcs that you did to show off Victini's strength: why are you calcing adamant tini with CB? Almost every victini will be +speed, CB or Ebelt or LO or another item. Without adamant, you're not OHKOing that Aerodactyl after rocks, you're not 3HKOing that Swampert, and you're not OHKOing a Krookodile if you manage to predict pursuit. Honestly CB Victini isn't the best set and IMO isn't broken by any means, because of the opportunity cost that it comes with which you cannot just dismiss. CB Victini doesn't have any sort of magical infinite opportunities to just spam V-Create anymore, the metagame has changed. In this metagame, there are plenty of pokemon which will usually get one kill per game. Sure, Victini is going to do its job and wallbreak like it should. However, I just don't understand at all the idea that Victini can click V-Create and there will be no issues. There are a lot of very threatening pokemon in this metagame which can either revenge kill Victini after one V-Create or, if the victini user wants to switch out, potentially setup on it and leave dents in the other team much larger than Victini leaves a dent in theirs. I like the part in your argument about Victini's great defensive stats/bulk because I honestly believe it's one of Victini's best assets, but I'm not sure about the clicking v-create for free argument because there is a lot to be lost from clicking it in certain matchups (which happen frequently.) Seeing a Tyrantrum, Feraligatr, Salamence, Mega Swampert or Chandelure on the other side, among others, cause the Victini user to have to think before the click, which is something that could not be said in XY UU when it was banned.

 

[LeoLancaster]

Ok, I'm only going to say this once.

Haha I'm actually gonna say this a lot.

Victini is not the problem. It's not the solution, but it's not the problem, and bans are based on problems. If Victini is unbalanced, it will be presented as unbalanced once the meta becomes balanced. That may have sounded confusing, but here's what I mean:

Pidgeot and Gatr are far larger problems, and let's just assume that this is correct so I don't have to make a gigantic ass post (which I will when the time comes) as to why these two mons are unbelievably broken in the meta. If, at that time when Pidgeot and Gatr are banned respectively, Victini is found to be broken, it will be RE-EVALUATED as it's been done now.

Let's be real, in the fast past balance-crushing metagame that has arised, Victini is a godsend, not a curse, especially as being another Pokemon that can offensively take on the current more-broken mons in this tier.

Shout out to Bouffalant, we agreed on something.

But suppose Victini does turn out to be broken or unhealthy in a future, otherwise healthy metagame after the next presumed tests/bans. Why unban it now, if we're not even sure if it will be okay in the metagame we're trying to reach? I think it's clear most of us are hoping and possibly expecting a few more tests in order to rebalance the tier, and it's also clear Victini does nothing to help achieve this goal. Doesn't it make more sense to evaluate Victini in the meta we want and are striving for, rather than the one we're trying to escape? This whole idea of unbanning Victini now and re-evaluate it later runs contrary to what brought UU to such a great state in the first place, where we reached a stable, healthy meta first and then rechecked things to see if they could fit.

 

[Lord Wallace]

It's a decently solid argument, but I just had a nitpick about the calcs that you did to show off Victini's strength: why are you calcing adamant tini with CB? Almost every victini will be +speed, CB or Ebelt or LO or another item. Without adamant, you're not OHKOing that Aerodactyl after rocks, you're not 3HKOing that Swampert, and you're not OHKOing a Krookodile if you manage to predict pursuit. Honestly CB Victini isn't the best set and IMO isn't broken by any means, because of the opportunity cost that it comes with which you cannot just dismiss. CB Victini doesn't have any sort of magical infinite opportunities to just spam V-Create anymore, the metagame has changed. In this metagame, there are plenty of pokemon which will usually get one kill per game. Sure, Victini is going to do its job and wallbreak like it should. However, I just don't understand at all the idea that Victini can click V-Create and there will be no issues. There are a lot of very threatening pokemon in this metagame which can either revenge kill Victini after one V-Create or, if the victini user wants to switch out, potentially setup on it and leave dents in the other team much larger than Victini leaves a dent in theirs. I like the part in your argument about Victini's great defensive stats/bulk because I honestly believe it's one of Victini's best assets, but I'm not sure about the clicking v-create for free argument because there is a lot to be lost from clicking it in certain matchups (which happen frequently.) Seeing a Tyrantrum, Feraligatr, Salamence, Mega Swampert or Chandelure on the other side, among others, cause the Victini user to have to think before the click, which is something that could not be said in XY UU when it was banned.

The things you accomplish with Adamant > what you outspeed with Jolly imo, I'm not sure what the general consensus is on this but I always ran Adamant on CB. Like, I guess you outspeed, what, Lucario, Roserade, Krookodile.....and that's pretty much it. And I guess you tie with Shaymin and other Victini. I may be missing something but that's not a whole lot you do with Jolly compared to the stuff Adamant does. Rest of your points are valid, though, I'm not too sure about anything even remotely offensive being able to comfortably set up on V Create, let alone switch in.

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 28 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 201-237 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yeeeaaahhh
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 186-219 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ow.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamence: 160-189 (48.3 - 57%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO
nigga.

 

[slated]

The things you accomplish with Adamant > what you outspeed with Jolly imo, I'm not sure what the general consensus is on this but I always ran Adamant on CB. Like, I guess you outspeed, what, Lucario, Roserade, Krookodile.....and that's pretty much it. And I guess you tie with Shaymin and other Victini. I may be missing something but that's not a whole lot you do with Jolly compared to the stuff Adamant does. Rest of your points are valid though.

Honestly, I'd rather not be outsped by Roserade, Jolly Lucario, Kyurem, Krookodile, Timid Hydreigon (although I guess that one doesn't matter too much unless you have U-Turn) Jolly Haxorus, scarf-less Darmanitan and Houndoom before it megas. Of that list, the only notable things that you lose are being powdered by Roserade without being able to kill it first (or just bombed if you're weakened) not being able to RK kyurem and also possibly getting 2HKOd after rocks trying to switch in, being RK'd by Krookodile without clicking V-Create, and losing to CB darm. I guess it's a matter of personal preference; I can see where you're coming from, because being able to OHKO aero after rocks, 3HKO swampert, and having a much higher chance of OHKOing krookodile after intimidate with V-Create may be worth it. I've always preferred jolly, but I can see how adamant would work.

 

[Wanka]

How are people going to go out on a limb and be so naive to say that clicking V create has no drawbacks. It's not like victini has this ungodly ability to be able to click v create 100% of the time and good things will happen for you. The tier has changed, this isn't XY UU anymore. In ORAS you actually have to think a ton more about what move you want to click with victini as opposed to XY where there were only a few things that made you click u turn. Victini doing "its job" as a wallbreaker does not make it broken either. God forbid tini does its job and gets a kill then its broken. Then why should we keep any wall breaker in the tier at all? Yes, it does have good bulk but it's not like victini is going to stay extremely healthy throughout a battle and repeatedly come in and get multiple kills. CB is the least of your worries.

 

[Lord Wallace]

How are people going to go out on a limb and be so naive to say that clicking V create has no drawbacks. It's not like victini has this ungodly ability to be able to click v create 100% of the time and good things will happen for you. The tier has changed, this isn't XY UU anymore. In ORAS you actually have to think a ton more about what move you want to click with victini as opposed to XY where there were only a few things that made you click u turn. Victini doing "its job" as a wallbreaker does not make it broken either. God forbid tini does its job and gets a kill then its broken. Then why should we keep any wall breaker in the tier at all? Yes, it does have good bulk but it's not like victini is going to stay extremely healthy throughout a battle and repeatedly come in and get multiple kills. CB is the least of your worries.

Because very rarely does it not do good things for you, obviously it was a hyperbole when I said it never had drawbacks. And idk about you but getting Victini in for multiple kills is actually pretty simple thanks to the VoltTurn archetype. God forbid something fits the support characteristic of a broken mon. By your logic OU should ban Gardevoir and Heracross too because Landorus actually turned out to be broken.

 

[Wanka]

Is every team in UU going to be volt turn though? Don't get me wrong CB tini on volt turn is where it should be, but the fact of the matter is that every team with a tini wont be volt turn. Even if you can get it in safely, balance has good commonly used mons that can come in on CB victini. Trust me, CB tini is the least of this tiers worries without a doubt. I'm also lost on your referance to gard and hera, elaborate on that.

 

[Lord Wallace]

Is every team in UU going to be volt turn though? Don't get me wrong CB tini on volt turn is where it should be, but the fact of the matter is that every team with a tini wont be volt turn. Even if you can get it in safely, balance has good commonly used mons that can come in on CB victini. Trust me, CB tini is the least of this tiers worries without a doubt. I'm also lost on your referance to gard and hera, elaborate on that.

Mega Gardevoir and Mega Hera are wallbreakers in OU that are not in danger of a suspect test at all, unlike Landorus, which got banned.
I get that Victini is capable of more than just spamming V Create, I could probably write another few paragraphs on LO Tini, but I did want to point out that V Create spam still sucks regardless. And really? You act like there's an abundance of Pokemon that take V Create so incredibly well, which isn't true, and the ones that can take it are either forced to waste a turn recovering (if they even can) and if they don't they often times face a 2hko next time Victini comes back in, or they could just get bopped by coverage instead.
UU has like one viable Flash Fire user that gets 2HKOed by CB Bolt Strike anyway.
So if Victini has so many switch ins I'm waiting for the calcs dude. Let's see all your common switch ins and how well they actually take the heat let alone the coverage.

 

[Wanka]

I think you are overreacting. All said was that UU has good mons that can reliably switch into the CB set. I never said there was an abundance, but we do have switchins for the CB set.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 79-93 (25.9 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (you just let in a threat)

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 102-120 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (support mon than can drop toxic or remove hazards)

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 126-148 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (follows up with a pain split to limit the damage to about half of the initial)

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 102-120 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- 19.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery (hard wall)

Chandelure in general forces prediction which is not unhealthy.

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 141-167 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 79.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (ez rocks and you get 12% of that back with lefties)

Any bulky water in general. Once again forces a prediction which is not necessarily unhealthy.

So there are your calcs. lol. I understand LO tini is capable of more but this argument is just in regards to CB not being the issue because you made it sound like it was

 

[Lord Wallace]

And that's probably as far as we're going to go without just repeating ourselves. Most of the votes have been cast already anyway (mine certainly is) and clearly we're at an impasse. One side says there's clearly good switch ins/opportunity cost. The other says those switch ins are still taking way too much for the suspect to be a healthy presence along with its coverage options, other sets etc.
After this discussion though I think I'll be ok with either outcome, especially since as King UU said, we're gonna have more pressing matters soon.

 

[Wanka]

I agree both arguments have their points and you do make some good ones. The vote should be interesting as I have heard good arguments on both sides and there are for sure other issues that will follow tini which are going to be interesting as well. UU is definitely in for a ride in months to come.

 

[Mackie's]

Ok, I'm only going to say this once.

Haha I'm actually gonna say this a lot.

Victini is not the problem. It's not the solution, but it's not the problem, and bans are based on problems. If Victini is unbalanced, it will be presented as unbalanced once the meta becomes balanced. That may have sounded confusing, but here's what I mean:

Pidgeot and Gatr are far larger problems, and let's just assume that this is correct so I don't have to make a gigantic ass post (which I will when the time comes) as to why these two mons are unbelievably broken in the meta. If, at that time when Pidgeot and Gatr are banned respectively, Victini is found to be broken, it will be RE-EVALUATED as it's been done now.

Let's be real, in the fast past balance-crushing metagame that has arised, Victini is a godsend, not a curse, especially as being another Pokemon that can offensively take on the current more-broken mons in this tier.

Shout out to Bouffalant, we agreed on something.

This I totally agree with, Victini is not really the solution nor the problem itself. In fact in my personal experience, gator is much harder to handle than Victini. I thought it was gator that was suspected when it came out, was not expecting victini at all.

 

[Yifeng]

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 186-219 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
ow.

nigga.

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert in Rain: 93-109 (27.2 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

bop

 

[Dad's Dad]

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert in Rain: 93-109 (27.2 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

bop

but why would it v-create if you've already set up rain

 

[Yifeng]

coz pert outspeeds -1 tini

 

[silenced]

I've voted to keep Victini BL.

As far as I'm concerned, the thing with victini is that due to high powered STAB's on both sides of the attacking spectrum, you really do get the luxury of picking your checks and counters with the sole exceptions of Snorlax, and cresselia (on the condition that cresselia is running 52 speed EV's to avoid tanking 2 banded V-create before having the chance to heal with moonlight). Even then, both of these pokemon really cannot stand being tricked an item should the victini player wish to do so (which is a viable choice given UU has quite a number of dangerous set-up sweepers that would appreciate walls being rendered far less useful). The only other mon that comes to mind that achieves such wall-breaking potential is hydreigon, but the key difference is that hydreigon does have its capacity to wall-break neutered by its attack stats being dropped by superpower/draco meteor, whereas victini does not lose any power, though it does depend on prediction whether you can unleash a second V-create safely.

Scouting is an argument that I dismissed automatically. Prediction goes both ways, and for every succesful scouting of victini sets, there's going to be games where it goes horribly wrong. No amount of replays would sway me otherwise as due to varying levels of skill alone, you just cannot say that you can win the prediction war on a consistent basis.

I do agree feraligatr is worse to deal with though, as Victini is item dependent on what it gets to break through, as opposed to only requiring a life orb. Additionally the only way to really dictate what feraligatr does when its on the field is to have whimsicott + bulky water/ice resist that can OHKO gatr in reserve or just have everything outspeed unboosted gatr with the ability to KO.

M-pidgeot I'd agree with seeing it banned as well, but I believe it to be dealt with easier than gatr or tini as outside outrageous hax levels, there are at least multiple viable answers that can take on one or both of M-pidgeot's main sets regardless of what it does, that can fit on multiple play-styles. That being said, switching into hurricane is still not easy to do, and forces significant levels of over-centralization.

 

[Nightingales]

I'm gonna just say it outright, since I went from being adamantly against tini to being more on the fence about it.

Base 600 is something some mons would kill for, but straight 100s can get to be pretty underwhelming if your EVs aren't in the right place against that team. You might want max hp and spa vs stall or max speed against offense and I've personally had issues with matchups where the team was just overwhelmingly prepared for any set of Victini. So just saying that, I think it's still a threat to anything if played right, but I'm not sure if it's really ban-worthy on sheer versatility alone.

 

[jeronipuff]

As the suspect went on, I felt that Victini's other movesets, other than CB, were kind of lack luster. I feel as though they caught me off guard but did not threaten any team that I was using nearly as much as CB V-Create. Now this made voting difficult for me because the CB set obviously very strong but I felt like it was the only threatening set and it does have it's counters (my favorite being def Mence). At the same time though, one can predict a counter's switch in and just U-Turn out :/.

 

[DKFirelord]

I've voted to keep it BL

As I keep playing with Victni or against it it had like 4 really good set Mix,CB, TR, or Specs and though they can be walled by or stopped you can't really prepare for every set espically the mix set since you'd send out you're water type to wall Victini then it just KO you with Grass Knot the nex turn the same goes for the specs set.

 

[Ununhexium]

I didn't bother to really get reqs because my computer is kill but I'll still post.

Victini isn't really broken at all. It has plenty of checks and counters that can fit on virtually any team archetype. I know the "it haz checks and counters lolol" argument is usually a bad one, but it really works here because all of them are good Pokemon that fit well on teams regardless. I have been using a team with two decent Victini checks (Physically Defensive Swampert and Choice Scarf Hydreigon) and it has had no problems with Victini. After clicking V-Create, Victini is a giant sitting duck to pretty much any offensive ish Pokemon in the tier. Its 2 best sets even have their own little set of flaws too. Life Orb is worn down WAY too quickly as it is vulnerable to ALL forms of entry hazards (not to mention weak to Stealth Rock (the most important move in the game)) and Choice Band gives free turns to a whole host of Pokemon after it's locked into a move. For example, as soon as it gets locked into V-Create, it is forced out because it's slower and more frail and is Stealth Rock bait for Swampert.

But if that doesn't really convince you, look through the viability rankings and see how many Pokemon are able to either revenge kill or take a powerful hit from Victini. (hint it's much of S and A+ rank).

FREE VICTINI

Edit: to anybody who is voting ban because we have bigger problems at the moment is being dumb because if Victini isn't a problem keeping it banned isn't going to increase the chance of something else being suspected

EDIT 2: If Victini remains banned can you guys please suspect it again after we appease some of the people that are voting ban simply on the fact that there are other problems at the moment so it'll achieve justice

 

[rs]

Many people Pro-Tini have been listing a bunch of checks to the choiced sets, mostly just ones that can switch in to v-create. But I feel like these people forget that this monster learns U-Turn, mostly just because they don't mention it all and are just worrying about switching into V-Creates. Predicting a u-turn or v-create can put an extreme amount of pressure on the opponent. Imo a well played choiced Tini on a well built team (VoltTurn for example) can be devastating to any play style. Even though everyone is probably done voting anyway, I thought I'd share those final thoughts.

 

[scpinion]

I decided to pick up UU for this suspect test, so I do not have the background to comment on a Victini-less meta atm. As such, I came into the suspect as a 100% neutral party. I plan to ladder after the suspect, but prior to voting, to confirm my conclusions though.

I finished up reqs some time ago, but wanted a chance to play on the UU ladder without Victini before I posted my final opinions.

I have seen nothing in this thread, nor on the ladder, that convinces me Victini is broken in the UU metagame.
Is Victini annoying? Yes.
Can it nuke walls with V-create and its awesome coverage options? Yes.
Do you need to scout its set and play cautiously around it? Yes.
Is it checked (in multiple ways) by standard 'mons/team builds? Yes.

The details for each of those statements have been reiterated over, and over, throughout this thread, so I'll forego stating them again.

From what I can see (and I'm certainly not an expert), there are other Pokemon that cause far more trouble for the tier than Victini. Unbanning Victini may make the tier worse for a short period of time, but that is not a reason to keep it BL imo. The Pokemon that are causing the problems should be suspected.

One of the most convincing points for me was the fact most people I played on both the suspect test ladder and the standard ladder were using the exact same teams. I know some others mentioned that their old teams work just fine in the suspect metagame here in the thread. I know I was laddering with teams that were not built specifically for this suspect test and they worked out just fine.

Thus, I just voted to unban Victini and will look forward to partaking in other suspect tests.

 

[Saria]

The voting is over. Victini will remain banned from UU.

Link to the results

Thanks to all voters!