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I'm a little annoyed at how many people are nomming Excadrill. I can honestly say he's pretty easy to stop with ever 1 in 4 teams being some kind of weather and with how prevalent Pokes like Skarm and Gliscor are, he shouldn't be nommed.
I'm getting a little sick of people saying this about suspects like Latios and Reuniclus. Just because the metagame over-prepares for them doesn't mean they're suddenly a healthy part of it.
Not taking sides here, just saying that this reasoning is getting a little tiresome.
The metagame is far from "over-prepared" for them; it merely accounts for their presence. Blissey is no where to be seen, meaning that SpD Tyranitar is naturally going to be one of the best choices to fill that niche, and it happens to check Latios and Reuniclus (as well as a host of other things) damn well, same for SpD Scizor (who also offers priority and a priority sweeper).
Having at least 2 pokemon on a team that outspeed Reuniclus is just the state of things what with it being so slow - revenge killers that you didn't even have to go out of your way to find, how convenient.
As for Latios, if you can outrun it with one pokemon and have a pokemon that takes a hit from it decently, it is covered, and it isn't nearly as bulky as its stats would imply. Bringing a steel into it is generally a safe option, too. "Oh but HP Fire." If you are forced to predict a switch-in to ensure your sweep, then it isn't the be all, end all overpowering sweeper that people want to make it out to be - it is just another sweeper with coverage moves.
If your comment was directed solely at that post about Excadrill...then I'm really not seeing how the use of Gliscor and Skarmory is considered overpreparing for it in the first place. Skarmory has been a staple since Gen 2, and Gliscor since Gen 4. Why wouldn't their popularity increase in a physical, fighting-typed metagame?
Evasion Clause
Moves that boost evasion (i.e. Double Team and Minimize) are not allowed.
Last I checked, Sand Veil was not an attack, nor was Brightpowder.
Let's not try and say that the Clause was made to mean something else. I'm sure plenty of thought was put into it, as well as the wording of it, and if we try to apply some additional meaning to it to suit the wants of particular players then we may as well just scrap it as a whole.
I'm getting a little sick of people saying this about suspects like Latios and Reuniclus. Just because the metagame over-prepares for them doesn't mean they're suddenly a healthy part of it.
Not taking sides here, just saying that this reasoning is getting a little tiresome.
I'm not saying they are over-prepared for. I'm saying that most people are using Gliscor and Skarmory because they check fighting types and many other physical threats and that if they happen across a couple sand teams then they will have no problem Excadrill if they play smart.
As for Latios, if you can outrun it with one pokemon and have a pokemon that takes a hit from it decently, it is covered, and it isn't nearly as bulky as its stats would imply. Bringing a steel into it is generally a safe option, too. "Oh but HP Fire." If you are forced to predict a switch-in to ensure your sweep, then it isn't the be all, end all overpowering sweeper that people want to make it out to be - it is just another sweeper with coverage moves.
Here is the problem - what Pokemon can take hits from Latios decently? In 4 moves (Psyshock, DM, Surf, HP Fire) it 2HKO's (outspeeding) every Pokemon in the metagame apart from Specially defensive Jirachi/Bronzong and certain T-Tar. How is that possibly healthy for the metagame at all?
Bringing in a steel type is a safe option? I disagree - Scizor is 2HKO'd by DM unless it is very specially defensive; Metagross takes over 50% unless very specially defensive; Excadrill is 2HKO'd by DM; Heatran unless specially defensive will take nearly 50% too; Skarmory is 2HKO'd by DM unless specially defensive - all this is just assuming the player is just going to spam Draco Meteor. If it predicts any of those coming in, they're dead.
And all this, again, is assuming specs is the only set Latios runs. I don't really know what else to say. If you don't think that's unhealthy for the metagame, then you and I have VASTLY different opinions on what a good metagame actually is.
Here is the problem - what Pokemon can take hits from Latios decently? In 4 moves (Psyshock, DM, Surf, HP Fire) it 2HKO's (outspeeding) every Pokemon in the metagame apart from Specially defensive Jirachi/Bronzong and certain T-Tar. How is that possibly healthy for the metagame at all?
The keyword there is "certain T-Tar." Specially defensive T-Tar is fairly common and is useful outside of countering latios. It checks reinculus and is just a useful pokemon in general. Also, most Latios run trick in one of those slots to beat stall, so it doesn't beat everything.
Am I the only one that sees a pretty balanced metagame here? I think it's pretty stable. In fact, if I had actually laddered consistently, and not stopped after week 2 or so I would nominate Deoxys-Normal to be retested in OU. It never really got tested anyway, people just assumed it was the exact same as Deo-A (which it is not).
(Also, first post after 11 months of lurking. Yay!)
The keyword there is "certain T-Tar." Specially defensive T-Tar is fairly common and is useful outside of countering latios. It checks reinculus and is just a useful pokemon in general. Also, most Latios run trick in one of those slots to beat stall, so it doesn't beat everything.
Am I the only one that sees a pretty balanced metagame here? I think it's pretty stable. In fact, if I had actually laddered consistently, and not stopped after week 2 or so I would nominate Deoxys-Normal to be retested in OU. It never really got tested anyway, people just assumed it was the exact same as Deo-A (which it is not).
(Also, first post after 11 months of lurking. Yay!)
But you're assuming that because Latios is countered by Tyranitar, it is not banworthy. If every team carried a Tyranitar, then the metagame is terrible. If every team doesn't carry Tyranitar/Jirachi, then the teams that don't get completely wrecked by Latios. Teams are forced to use specialised counters or they lose, and it's generally not fun, IMO.
Also, personally, I'd not bother running Latios with Trick to beat stall (if I wanted something to rip apart stall, I'd use MixMence or MixHydreigon, but that's just me)- it's handy against bulky boosters like CM Reuniclus, so I can see the merit, but the fact that Latios has even more options is just more evidence of it's versatility and reinforces how powerful and deadly it is. You can only counter it once you know if they're carrying Trick or not (and which coverage move they've dropped). And by that point you've probably already lost a Pokemon.
Here is the problem - what Pokemon can take hits from Latios decently? In 4 moves (Psyshock, DM, Surf, HP Fire) it 2HKO's (outspeeding) every Pokemon in the metagame apart from Specially defensive Jirachi/Bronzong and certain T-Tar. How is that possibly healthy for the metagame at all?
Bringing in a steel type is a safe option? I disagree - Scizor is 2HKO'd by DM unless it is very specially defensive; Metagross takes over 50% unless very specially defensive; Excadrill is 2HKO'd by DM; Heatran unless specially defensive will take nearly 50% too; Skarmory is 2HKO'd by DM unless specially defensive - all this is just assuming the player is just going to spam Draco Meteor. If it predicts any of those coming in, they're dead.
And all this, again, is assuming specs is the only set Latios runs. I don't really know what else to say. If you don't think that's unhealthy for the metagame, then you and I have VASTLY different opinions on what a good metagame actually is.
Some calcs for our reference. Note that Metagross, Jirachi, and Heatran are not specially defensive, they just have some bulk to them - CB or Lefties Metagross, ScarfTran, Wish + CM Jirachi, respectively. Scizor has Roost, so those numbers aren't that big of a deal, and commonly uses Lefties, while Excadrill outspeeds and forces it out, pulling of an SD or Spin in the process. Skarmory is the only on who is 2HKOd straight up.
I'll assume common battle conditions to be Sand (not only is Tyranitar more prevalent than Politoed, Ninetales, and Abomasnow individually, but Hippowdon is also there to start it) and Stealth Rock. And this is Specs Latios since that's what we're talking about.
-Latios came into, say, offensive Timid Rotom-W's Thunderbolt, which does an average of 22%. 22+12+6 = 40% on the switch-in alone. In order to take the impending Draco Meteor, Scizor or Heatran is brought in and they force out Latios. In the process, Latios takes an additional 6% from Sand, so it lost 44% from that ordeal. Meanwhile, Scizor can Roost off the damage freely since the second DM doesn't kill, while ScarfHeatran can launch Fire Blast with certainty knowing that DM won't kill it while the 36% Latios takes leaves it in KO range for the next Fire Blast. Though Latios can 2HKO Heatran with rocks, it won't on average, so Heatran generally wins the exchange. In both cases, the Latios player loses Latios while Scizor / Heatran survive (albeit barely for the latter).
-Next match, Latios switches into Heatran's Fire Blast, threatening a Surf. Heatran's unboosted Fire Blast does 32% on average. 32+12+6 = 50% on the switch in for Latios. The player decides to bring in Ferrothorn, who takes the Surf / DM, and sets up Spikes, Leech Seed, or Thunder Waves the switch. Latios is at 44% thanks to Sand damage, easy pickings for the next switch-in following the 18% of damage from residual effects.
-Let's say, however, that things don't go as planned. Latios comes into Conkeldurr's Drain Punch, taking an average of 30% damage. 30+12+6=48% lost on the switchin, leaving it at 52%. Expecting a Draco Meteor, Conkeldurr is switched out to Jirachi, who instead takes a Specs HP Fire to the face for 61% on average while Leftovers cancels out Stealth Rock. Rather than leaving it in, the Jirachi user goes instead to his ScarfChomp, who takes the hit like a champ and stares down at Latios threatening a Dragon Claw. Later in the match, Jirachi heals up with Wish and is ready to take on Latios again.
The scenarios obviously play into my favor but you get the point - Latios doesn't always get the easy choice of just using Draco Meteor. Try to predict Rotom-W's switch and use HP Fire? Too bad, you just got hit by T-Wave and are now useless. HP Firing Ferrothorn's switch-in? Heatran just got the Flash Fire boost and KOd you with its boosted Fire Blast.
Latios' hand is often forced into an unfavorable position even when played well due to the nature of Specs, while LO Latios has significantly less power. People are for some reason assuming that the person facing Latios is a complete idiot and won't double switch / pivot / lure an attack just like the Latios user will, which makes it a game of who plays better and makes the better decisions / risk management. And just as Latios can predict a steel with HP Fire (it wishes it had Flamethrower), Rotom-W can predict and Thunder Wave. Vaporeon can catch you with Toxic. Conkeldurr can Stone Edge or Heatran can Dragon Pulse. I am by no means denying Latios' strength, as it is definitely a top OU, but with 2-3 switch ins at most (unless you are predicting perfectly on support moves and Earthquakes) and a choice lock, Latios can't do it all. That's my point.
But you're assuming that because Latios is countered by Tyranitar, it is not banworthy. If every team carried a Tyranitar, then the metagame is terrible. If every team doesn't carry Tyranitar/Jirachi, then the teams that don't get completely wrecked by Latios. Teams are forced to use specialised counters or they lose, and it's generally not fun, IMO.
But nearly every team does carry Tyranitar because it is so damn useful for things other than Latios - I find myself checking it without even having it in mind sometimes, to be honest. I'm not sure where this "specialized counter" mentality is coming from, either. Pokemon need to be adapted to a new metagame, simple as. As I said before, Blissey isn't really around anymore, so steels, who tend to have decent resists on the special side (Ghost, Ice, Psychic, Grass) could use some buffing in that aspect.
Why is it "overcentralizing" this generation when Tar runs SpD for several things, but when Gliscor ran speed last gen to check Ice Punch Lucario, it was simply "adapting?" Why is the use of Trick / Psyshock on every choiced special sweeper not overcentralization on Blissey's part, who isn't even that common, but when Jirachi runs a little SpD (hell, the Jirachi in my example did nothing more than Max HP), Latios is suddenly forcing the metagame to go into a downward spiral with it at the center? And when Virizion, Landorus, and Lucario run HP Ice for Gliscor, that's just their current standard, but HP or SpD on Scizor / Metagross is overpreparing for Latios?
Steels are no longer able to rely on resistances alone, it's a new metagame and everyone is well aware of the power creep by now. SpD on steels is just another adaptation.
Heatran isn't even a top 20 pokemon in this meta. He has fallen. A lot. And even then, most of them aren't scarfers anymore, they're balloon supporters.
Some calcs for our reference. Note that Metagross, Jirachi, and Heatran are not specially defensive, they just have some bulk to them - CB or Lefties Metagross, ScarfTran, Wish + CM Jirachi, respectively. Scizor has Roost, so those numbers aren't that big of a deal, and commonly uses Lefties, while Excadrill outspeeds and forces it out, pulling of an SD or Spin in the process. Skarmory is the only on who is 2HKOd straight up.
I'll assume common battle conditions to be Sand (not only is Tyranitar more prevalent than Politoed, Ninetales, and Abomasnow individually, but Hippowdon is also there to start it) and Stealth Rock. And this is Specs Latios since that's what we're talking about.
-Latios came into, say, offensive Timid Rotom-W's Thunderbolt, which does an average of 22%. 22+12+6 = 40% on the switch-in alone. In order to take the impending Draco Meteor, Scizor or Heatran is brought in and they force out Latios. In the process, Latios takes an additional 6% from Sand, so it lost 44% from that ordeal. Meanwhile, Scizor can Roost off the damage freely since the second DM doesn't kill, while ScarfHeatran can launch Fire Blast with certainty knowing that DM won't kill it while the 36% Latios takes leaves it in KO range for the next Fire Blast. Though Latios can 2HKO Heatran with rocks, it won't on average, so Heatran generally wins the exchange. In both cases, the Latios player loses Latios while Scizor / Heatran survive (albeit barely for the latter).
-Next match, Latios switches into Heatran's Fire Blast, threatening a Surf. Heatran's unboosted Fire Blast does 32% on average. 32+12+6 = 50% on the switch in for Latios. The player decides to bring in Ferrothorn, who takes the Surf / DM, and sets up Spikes, Leech Seed, or Thunder Waves the switch. Latios is at 44% thanks to Sand damage, easy pickings for the next switch-in following the 18% of damage from residual effects.
-Let's say, however, that things don't go as planned. Latios comes into Conkeldurr's Drain Punch, taking an average of 30% damage. 30+12+6=48% lost on the switchin, leaving it at 52%. Expecting a Draco Meteor, Conkeldurr is switched out to Jirachi, who instead takes a Specs HP Fire to the face for 61% on average while Leftovers cancels out Stealth Rock. Rather than leaving it in, the Jirachi user goes instead to his ScarfChomp, who takes the hit like a champ and stares down at Latios threatening a Dragon Claw. Later in the match, Jirachi heals up with Wish and is ready to take on Latios again.
The scenarios obviously play into my favor but you get the point - Latios doesn't always get the easy choice of just using Draco Meteor. Try to predict Rotom-W's switch and use HP Fire? Too bad, you just got hit by T-Wave and are now useless. HP Firing Ferrothorn's switch-in? Heatran just got the Flash Fire boost and KOd you with its boosted Fire Blast.
Latios' hand is often forced into an unfavorable position even when played well due to the nature of Specs, while LO Latios has significantly less power. People are for some reason assuming that the person facing Latios is a complete idiot and won't double switch / pivot / lure an attack just like the Latios user will, which makes it a game of who plays better and makes the better decisions / risk management. And just as Latios can predict a steel with HP Fire (it wishes it had Flamethrower), Rotom-W can predict and Thunder Wave. Vaporeon can catch you with Toxic. Conkeldurr can Stone Edge or Heatran can Dragon Pulse. I am by no means denying Latios' strength, as it is definitely a top OU, but with 2-3 switch ins at most (unless you are predicting perfectly on support moves and Earthquakes) and a choice lock, Latios can't do it all. That's my point.
Latios doesn't have to do it all. Just knowing that Latios is going to take out 2/3 Pokemon a match is enough for me, and it usually does considering it can get in at least 2/3 times - and nothing, as your calcs at the top show, like taking anything from Specs Latios.
Your argument, while valid in some ways, again just boils down to "well if I outpredict the Latios", which isn't a good argument as well because it works both ways. You can't assume that either player is more or less capable of double-switching or predicting a move than the other, so I don't think that argument holds too much weight.
Latios can't beat a team on it's own, but it almost always takes out a couple of Pokemon at least with minimal effort. Something that can 2HKO almost every Pokemon in the game is never a good thing, especially since it outspeeds almost every other thing. The only Pokemon in the game that I can think of that can take a hit and outspeed it and KO is ScarfTar and Excadrill, and that's it.
But you're assuming that because Latios is countered by Tyranitar, it is not banworthy. If every team carried a Tyranitar, then the metagame is terrible. If every team doesn't carry Tyranitar/Jirachi, then the teams that don't get completely wrecked by Latios. Teams are forced to use specialised counters or they lose, and it's generally not fun, IMO.
That's not exactly what I meant. I just meant that latios has at least one common AND useful counter. No, that by itself does not make him OU but it does help make that case.
That would actually be better for the metagame. More pokemon would be viable which would increase the differences in teams. That would mean a better metagame. When one strong pokemon is at the top of the metagame it will be far more centralized. Only when a pokemon that's not broken is at the top of the metagame would the metagame be balanced. When salamence and latias left for uber last gen, there was a huge change in the metagame. More grass types went from uu to ou, the metagame became more GFW oriented instead of Dragon Steel. The metagame was better for it. Even though this is 5th gen and not 4th gen the way the metagame shifts is still the same. When a top threat goes to uber the metagame adapts and becomes better from that ban.
Latios doesn't have to do it all. Just knowing that Latios is going to take out 2/3 Pokemon a match is enough for me, and it usually does considering it can get in at least 2/3 times - and nothing, as your calcs at the top show, like taking anything from Specs Latios.
Your argument, while valid in some ways, again just boils down to "well if I outpredict the Latios", which isn't a good argument as well because it works both ways. You can't assume that either player is more or less capable of double-switching or predicting a move than the other, so I don't think that argument holds too much weight.
Latios can't beat a team on it's own, but it almost always takes out a couple of Pokemon at least with minimal effort. Something that can 2HKO almost every Pokemon in the game is never a good thing, especially since it outspeeds almost every other thing. The only Pokemon in the game that I can think of that can take a hit and outspeed it and KO is ScarfTar and Excadrill, and that's it.
Those were definitely best case scenarios for Latios switching in, it is not taking out 2-3 pokemon a match. My argument really didn't revolve around "if you predict Latios," it is actually coming up with stuff that would switch into its STAB attack, which is what you souls be preparing for. I may have been unclear and I apologize if I was, but I was assuming that both players were equally capable.
To be clear, Latios is far less threatening once it has used Draco Meteor, obvious as that statement may be. On a sidenote, Id really rather not see the dragon witch hunt of last time repeated this time around.
To be fair, choice specs draco meteor isn't the only thing latios can do. I am quite happy that rain teams DO NOT use his calm mind sets. Otherwise, I'd be out on my ass.
In any case, I gave some more thought to the idea of banning Garchomp and Sand Veil together. It makes about as much sense as allowing the use of double team so long as it's users only use it once to boost their evasion one stage, giving them the same evasion as garchomp in the sand.
Would it be bad if we ever considered a Tyranitar ban? Sure, he has a lot of weaknesses, but he is the main sand stream runner, and I believe it may be a step in the right direction for reducing the amount of weather without completely nerfing sand (Hippowdon is still around after all).
Also, specs latios is an issue. And the dragon wish hunt is mostly there because game freak likes making dragons with awesome stats, that isn't the player's fault.
I mostly like watching the arguments, because I am lazy and rarely do calcs, but one point really caught my eye:
Would it be bad if we ever considered a Tyranitar ban? Sure, he has a lot of weaknesses, but he is the main sand stream runner, and I believe it may be a step in the right direction for reducing the amount of weather without completely nerfing sand (Hippowdon is still around after all).
Also, specs latios is an issue. And the dragon wish hunt is mostly there because game freak likes making dragons with awesome stats, that isn't the player's fault.
We can consider it, but if we didn't consider Tar broken at its 4th gen peak I don't think you'd have much luck convincing people nowadays. It has plenty of checks and counters in the form of Gliscor, Conkeldurr, Swampert, Terrakion, the list goes on. And since I don't personally believe sand to be broken, the only reason to ban Tyranitar would be "we feel like a different metagame."
Which is largely the reasoning behind targeting the dragons, I feel. Their power level is on par with everything else this tine around, so getting rid of them would be for the sole purpose of choosing a FWG meta over a Dragon/Steel meta. Im not saying this is the case in all situations but I do believe we have the means to deal with them now.
EDIT: Latios can run other sets, yes, but I haven't seen too many people complain about them and I find them more manageable in general, which is why I don't address them too often. You're right, though. I haven't had the misfortune of facing Surf / Dragon Pulse / Thunder / CM in rain, thankfully. I've just been harassed by the genies.
Last I checked, Sand Veil was not an attack, nor was Brightpowder.
Let's not try and say that the Clause was made to mean something else. I'm sure plenty of thought was put into it, as well as the wording of it, and if we try to apply some additional meaning to it to suit the wants of particular players then we may as well just scrap it as a whole.
It's clear that the current version of the clause does not already ban any form of Sand Veil or Snow Cloak. That is why a nomination is necessary, to modify the clause to what it should be.
In any case, I gave some more thought to the idea of banning Garchomp and Sand Veil together. It makes about as much sense as allowing the use of double team so long as it's users only use it once to boost their evasion one stage, giving them the same evasion as garchomp in the sand.
Yeah, let's not ban broken Pokemon and all play a piss poor metagame.
If Latios does get banned, who knows how the other dragons will do. We won't know until we test them, if they even need testing themselves. Stuff like Chomp can be checked comfortably by the Genies/certain Balloon pokes now so it's not completely like Gen IV.
We can consider it, but if we didn't consider Tar broken at its 4th gen peak I don't think you'd have much luck convincing people nowadays. It has plenty of checks and counters in the form of Gliscor, Conkeldurr, Swampert, Terrakion, the list goes on. And since I don't personally believe sand to be broken, the only reason to ban Tyranitar would be "we feel like a different metagame."
I agree with that, a lot. What would make people hesitant of a ban of T-tar is that unlike current considerations such as Dory/Exadril or Blazeken is that there are a lot of commonly played pokes that ttar has to go running from. My main argument for banning it would be similiar to salamences argument of over centralizing the metagame. And unlike gen 4, aside from sand veil, there wasn't a real power to abuse the sand, while Sand Paddle and Power came out in Gen 5. But that is another fish to tackle, and even I am not convinced T-tar is banworthy, but it was merely an observation I agreed with that you also stated.
Which is largely the reasoning behind targeting the dragons, I feel. Their power level is on par with everything else this tine around, so getting rid of them would be for the sole purpose of choosing a FWG meta over a Dragon/Steel meta. Im not saying this is the case in all situations but I do believe we have the means to deal with them now.
I would agree, I would hope that if Latios was banned, we wouldn't chase the other dragons, but to open the door for them. Latias and Salamence are still very good, but honestly, I see them very rarely, either behind Garchomp or Latios. Even the new Gen 5 dragons Hydreion, and Haxerous have potential, but live in the shadow of a couple of powerful dragons.
EDIT: Latios can run other sets, yes, but I haven't seen too many people complain about them and I find them more manageable in general, which is why I don't address them too often. You're right, though. I haven't had the misfortune of facing Surf / Dragon Pulse / Thunder / CM in rain, thankfully. I've just been harassed by the genies.
I'd love a Tyranitar ban...I'd finally see some CHandelure use and people would actually use other Dark or Rock types and I wouldn't need HP Fighting on my own Chandelure, but Tyranitar is definitely not broken.
It's slow and lots of things can wall it or down right murder it.
I find it funny. On paper, Tyranitar seems like he'd be pretty crappy. 6 weaknesses and not too many resistances? Sounds bad, but in reality, he's a bulky mofo, hits like a truck, and is stupidly versatile. Damn Game Freak just keeps on giving him moves every Gen.
Latios though...not many Steels like taking 50%+ from Specs DM.
Sure, Latios will be gone and either you'll get a free turn or he'll die from Pursuit, but your Steel type is going to take a big hit and Latios can switch back in later.
Aside from Sp.Def Jirachi/T-tar/Metagross, what mon(with the most common sets) can actually "counter" Specs Latios?
Skarmory and Ferrothorn are both destroyed by either HP Fire or Trick(If you dislike getting trolled by other base 110s) and heck, even T-tar gets wrecked by Surf.
Bronzong(which is kinda rare) can't take on Latios if it uses Surf or HP Fire and Scizor can't take HP Fire and even if he takes the DM, he'll be taking a huge hit and he'll be kinda useless for the rest of the match once he has like 41% of his health.(MAX Sp.Def)
Most people complain only about DM; I'm complaining about his insane power mixed with his great coverage and speed. Argue that all sweepers have coverage like Latios', but remember this: They don't have 500+ Sp. Attack along with 350 Speed just by switching in and not all teams have Sand Storm, so he's not as easy to wear down as you all make it to be.
I love Jirachi because of this...perfect counter as it's 3HKO'd by Specs HP Fire.
I probably am being redundant in doing this but I decided to tally up the suspect choices from the other thread to see whats most popular in the nominations...
Drought + Chlorophyll - 2
Tornadus - 1
Weather in general - 1
Baton Pass - 1
No Suspects - 1
(I might be 1 off on one or two)
Overall, I am mostly surprised looking at this, seeing the huge amount of nominations for Excadrill, and I am actually REALLY surprised by the amount of nominations for sandveil/snowcloak.
I'm not surprised at the Excadrill noms, as it is always nominated, though Blaziken has definitely proven to be a scarier threat under the sun.
And I know I've mentioned it before, but if Drizzle goes, Manaphy deserves another shot. Hydration is mad hard to abuse without instant weather, and a whole list of counters pops up onto CM / Rest / RD / Scald Manaphy (the set that everyone seemed to deem the most broken).
I'm still not entirely sure on what I want to nominate, but right now I'm mostly just debating between 2-3 things (Blaziken vs. Drought as a whole, Genies vs. Drizzle as a whole, and possibly, but not likely, Excadrill).
