np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Byrn Dragonstone]

Actually, without Sp. Att EVs, Crobat has a pretty poor chance to OHKO after rocks. (75.8% - 89.8%)

Also, what kind of Crobat are you running that uses special attacks? Taunt/Roost/Air Slash/Heat Wave? It has to be a bulky support set to take just half from Bullet Punch, in which case you should probably be more concerned about all of the specially bulky weather starters that will switch in on you free of charge and run a Dugtrio or something. Actually most of the tier won't be concerned with your Crobat; it sucks in OU almost invariably.

Really? Guess I always had previous damage or something. Actually I know what it was, I was running it in sun, lol =/. Brave Bird/U-Turn/Heat Wave/Roost was what I was running. Used it to clear Fighting types, and had the nice bonus of outspeeding the entire tier (except Deoxys, Jolteon, and scarfers of course). And I was running 252 Atk/252 Spe Adamant. And you would be suprised at the amount of KO's Crobat has scored me. Used him in conjunction with Snorlax/Blissey. Great pokemon that is often overlooked in my opinion.

 

[SJCrew]

I came back to this thread just now and found... I don't even know. Scizor should never Night Slash (in this metagame) because Jellicent/Chandelure is pretty much its only use, and they can just out-speed and OHKO or out-speed and burn it respectively.

Actually, I would argue things like that alone make Night Slash worth its salts on teams that don't really need a trapper (because let's be honest: most things that Scizor can trap are either now unviable or can see it coming miles away and get around it). Besides, if you wanted to make sure you get rid of Jellicent, you would have to run both CB Scizor and another Pursuit trapper, which is doing too much.

 

[SlimMan]

Actually, I would argue things like that alone make Night Slash worth its salts on teams that don't really need a trapper (because let's be honest; most things that Scizor can trap are either now unviable or can see it coming miles away and get around it). Besides, if you wanted to make sure you get rid of Jellicent, you would have to run both CB Scizor and another Pursuit trapper, which is doing too much.

Fair enough. Jellicent has to switch in you for you to beat it, which is a realistic scenario. However, you need to roll the absolute maximum damage both times to 2HKO max/max Jelli (which no one runs; and accounting for a presumed burn). On the standard 248/216 Jelli, you still need to roll high, though it's much more realistic to beat it. However, you'll still prolly end up with a Burned Scizor. Of course, the typical Jelli prolly won't be carrying WoW, but it's a risk you take by trying to Night Slash it. If you're running Specially Defensive Scizor with your CB, then you utterly fail against Jelli, Night Slash or not.

Chandelure can avoid being OHKOed by running 248/8, although I don't think anyone would run that. It doesn't need to tank another hit, as Scizor dies. Scizor can switch out, but that doesn't solve the original issue: technically, you didn't kill it.

There are no "things like that". Dark hits Psychic and Ghost super-effectively. Psychics are hit harder by U-Turn, and the only other OU Ghost is Gengar, who wouldn't switch into Scizor at all. Jelli and Chandy are literally the only targets of Night Slash in OU.

I'll concede your point that obvious Pursuit is obvious, and I'll admit that Quick Attack, while useful, is no stronger than any other 'mon using STAB priority. However, I would say that both of them have more utility than "Jelli + Chandy".

This is stupid. Why do we have to be afraid to even talk about Pokemon? Why the fuck would I even come here if I can't discuss what's going on in the metagame? Did we do something that was so bad as to make everyone paranoid about topicality all of the sudden?

You can come here to talk about what's going on in the metagame. But Night Slash Scizor is, as far as I know, not going on in the metagame.

It's fine and dandy to theorymon, and prove me wrong if you will, but tbh this recent conversation scared me when I checked the thread. I cannot, in my apparently un-enlightened state, comprehend why Night Slash would be worth even talking about on Scizor (again, let me know if I'm showing absurd amounts of ignorance).

 

[SJCrew]

Actually, looking at the calcs right now, I was under the impression that Scizor would do way higher damage with a Choice Band and 130 base Att. But 55.9% - 65.8% is just not cutting it. I think I misstepped on that one, my fault.

 

[SlimMan]

Well, as long as we're discussing hypothetical Scizor alternatives, it could possibly use Toxic to ruin Bulky Volcarona, Jellicent, and the like upon switch-in. Kinda like Heracross (I think it was Hera that did it) did in Gen4. It's probably not worth it though, because you have to predict their switch-in perfectly, or else you'll have revealed it and they'll be much more cautious for the rest of the match. It's also useless against teams which don't have the right targets for it, whereas his other moves have more versatility/utility. But for those times that it did work, it'd be cool, and I'd like to see my opponent's face if that happened.
Knock Off is in the same vein. Gimmicky, and not generally effective (especially given its pathetic power: 45 with Technicisn and CB), but when you rob their Gyarados of Lefties it could help depending on the circumstances.
Given Scizor's movepool, I don't think there are any other options to discuss, even extremely situational ones like above. How about we all agree that the standard moves are best.

Man, I feel bad for R_D. Not only is the server down, but the June usage stats aren't out yet. So much responsibility for one man.

 

[astrohawke]

I've actually been trying a shaymin with hp fire on one of my teams and it's surprisingly good for the meta. Doesn't really care what rotom-W does to it and surprise kills a ton of scizor with HP fire who switch in thinking they can just force you out and spam u-turn. Works with celebi too I guess. Max speed/max spatk and it doesn't even really mind getting tricked a scarf or specs from rotom-W.

Also quite a good switch in on ferrothorn as it's unphazed by leech seed, thunder wave or power whip and 2HKOs. Gyro ball may do some damage though but most ferrothorn seem to have given up on having 2 attacking moves.

 

[Ewil]

I've been thinking of using Safeguard as a way to prevent status. This could allow it to set up on stuff like Jirachi and not fear the status that plagues it. Only issue here is roar Heatran and Skarmory. Luckily that issue is solved by Magnezone. :) Too bad he doesn't get heal bell with multiscale. :(

So, any opinions on this particular set?

Dragonite (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 92 SDef / 160 Spd (they can be tweaked to outspeed the genies and 2KO Jirachi at +1 and +6 respectively, I guess)
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Dragon Claw
- Safeguard

That seems a sort-of physical-Latias lol
Yeah Heal Bell can be a good support for this mon and his good ability :(
With Safeguard the status problem can be solved but remains the Ice-attack problem, you must get rid of all ice attacker before start setting up with Drago, that's a serious problem too.

Changing topic:

5 days remains for the suspects, what are your top-5 personal most-hated pokemons ? XD

For me one is certainly Rotom-W (only one x2 weakness to a non too common type, and 2 too good stabs and a great immunity)
followed by:

Volcarona (if i'm not set SR, that can be an hard counter if he comes in the right moment)
Gyarados (Can switch on many things and is screwed only by status [not the restTalk version] and electric moves)
Terrakion (If he can gets the right setup, it's really hard to counter without priority)
Scrafty (BU or DD sets are both very strong and you must press around his two weakness or with a very powerfull attack [most of the times a special one])

 

[haunter]

Why don't you just use substitute in the last slot? Sub blocks statuses and also trick. Jirachi's body slam won't even break it (no Atk Jirachi does 16.6% - 19.7%) so you can easily get 6 dragon dances by alternating sub-roost-DD.

 

[Tobes]

Why don't you just use substitute in the last slot? Sub blocks statuses and also trick. Jirachi's body slam won't even break it (no Atk Jirachi does 16.6% - 19.7%) so you can easily get 6 dragon dances by alternating sub-roost-DD.

Wait does this account for Sub breaking Multiscale?

 

[haunter]

No, this is without multiscale factored in.

 

[chrisrandom9]

Surely Jirachi can just break the subs with Iron Head?

 

[SlimMan]

Surely Jirachi can just break the subs with Iron Head?

If Dragonite has max HP, and 124 Def EVs, then it can't break them with Iron Head. However, almost no Dragonite invests in Def, let alone so heavily, so in reality, you're right. However, even with no Def investment, Jirachi isn't guaranteed to break them.

 

[alphatron]

I'm just gonna leave this here.

Infernape @ Life orb
Trait: Blaze
Nature: Naive
Evs: 44 Atk, 212 spA, 252 spd
-Nasty Plot
-Fire Blast
-Close combat
-Vacuum Wave/Grass Knot

I'm not gonna bother drawling on about it's utility. Here are some calcs.

+2 LO Fire blast vs. 252/0 Rotom-W(sunlight): 97.7% - 115.5%
No sunlight: 65.5% - 77%

+2 LO Fire blast vs. 248/0 Jellicient (sunlight): 74.9% - 88.3%
+2 LO Grass Knot vs. 248/0 Jellicient (no sunlight): 111.7% - 131.5%

+2 Lo fire blast vs. 156/0 Gyarados (sunlight): 85.1% - 100.3%
+2 LO grass knot vs. 156/0 gyarados: 75.9% - 89.5%

+2 LO fire blast vs. 248/8 gyarados(sunlight): 79.4% - 93.6%
+2 LO Grass knot vs. 248/8 gyarados: 70.7% - 83.5%

+2 LO fire blast vs. 252/0 Dragonite (sunlight): 81.6% - 96.1% (not factoring in multiscale)
+2 LO fire blast vs. 252/252 careful dragonite(sunlight): 58.8% - 69.2% (only thing so far that lives after rocks)

+2 LO fire blast vs. 252/0 Tentacruel(sunlight): 73.9% - 87.1%
+2 Lo fire blast vs. 252/136 Calm Tentacruel(sunlight): 59.9% - 70.6%

+2 LO fire blast vs. 252/0 Vaporeon(sunlight): 70.6% - 82.9%

+2 LO fire blast vs. 252/0 Slowbro(sunlight): 95.7% - 112.7%

+2 Lo fire blast vs. 0/0 Naive salamence(sunlight): 127.8% - 150.5%
+2 LO fire blast vs. 0/0 Naive salamence(no sun): 85.2% - 100.6%

+2 LO Fire blast vs. 4/0 haxorus (sunlight): 143.9% - 169.4%
No sunlight: 95.9% - 113.3%

+2 LO fire blast vs. 4/0 hydriegon(sunlight): 105.8% - 124.5%
+2 LO Vacuum Wave vs. 4/0 hydreigon: 94.5% - 112.3% (Less damage than fire blast)

+2 LO fire blast vs. 252/0 Suicune(sunlight): 81.9% - 96.5%
+2 Lo grass knot vs. 252/0 suicune: 121.6% - 143.3%

LO Fire blast vs. +1 252/0 Cosmic Power Sigilyph(sunlight): 88.1% - 103.8%
LO fire blast vs. 252/0 reuniclus(sunlight): 99.7% - 117.7%
+2 LO Vacuum Wave vs. Excadrill: 88.4% - 105%

For the hell of it:
+2 LO fire blast vs. 252/0 Latias:(sunlight) 69.2% - 81.6%
+2 LO fire blast vs. 4/0 Latios(sunlight): 96.3% - 113.6%

Not sure why Infernape hasn't already replaced Blaziken on sun teams.

 

[Tobes]

I'm just gonna leave this here.

/wall of calcs

Not sure why Infernape hasn't already replaced Blaziken on sun teams.

I have to admit, this is pretty damn impressive. I think the major reason Infernape isn't replacing Blaziken is that when considering Ninetales it leaves you only 4 slots to use for resisting types, which lends itself more to a hyper offensive approach. There's also the lack of relative speed. Infernape is fast, but it can't touch scarfers, which Blaziken could do. All Blaziken really needed was Flare Blitz / Hi Jump Kick / Swords Dance / Protect and it beat pretty much everything short of Chandelure, while Infernape is fairly easy to revenge kill. idk, just my thoughts.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Surely Jirachi can just break the subs with Iron Head?

Speaking of this, this was always my main issue with SubCM Latias, as while Jirachi couldn't break its Subs with Body Slam, it would most of the time with Iron Head, which leads you into a prediction war to avoid paralysis that you will eventually lose.

 

[Zephiel]

Is it just me or is Rotom-W a bit overrated? I mean, it can hit really hard in the rain, but Pain Split is a really unreliably way to heal and it's pretty fragile.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Answer to Rotoms ffragility. Dont use Scarf. Ever. Max HP/SpA Specs is the way to go (on rain). if you make investmen into its bulk it works wonders for you. Max HP and 250 stat defenses uninvested is nothing to scoff at.

 

[MetaGross66]

That seems a sort-of physical-Latias lol
Yeah Heal Bell can be a good support for this mon and his good ability :(
With Safeguard the status problem can be solved but remains the Ice-attack problem, you must get rid of all ice attacker before start setting up with Drago, that's a serious problem too

Actually, the ev spread lets it set up on HP ice balloon heatran I think. I might be wrong, though because I haven't done the calcs. Non stab ice attacks arent hard to deal with. Politoed and the genies are the only common pokemon I see running them. Dragon attacks don't have to be taken since you can hit most of their users with a super effective stab after a DD. Tbh, I feel status is the bigger issue for a bulky dancer Dragonite since it's never gonna beat stuff like mamoswine. >.>

Heatran's HP ice does 31.1% - 37.3% with multiscale active. With Roost, that is effectively halved if you are at full HP. Without roost or multiscale's effects an HP ice is doing 62.2% - 73.6% so Heatran cannot beat you I guess.

 

[Mike Legend]

Answer to Rotoms ffragility. Dont use Scarf. Ever. Max HP/SpA Specs is the way to go (on rain). if you make investmen into its bulk it works wonders for you. Max HP and 250 stat defenses uninvested is nothing to scoff at.

You can make scarf bulky too. 200 HP / 140 SAtk / 168 Spe is what I use. Enough speed to outrun Dugtrio and you hit a random jump point in SAtk making it just as strong as Timid scarf Rotom-w. It only takes hits slightly worse than max HP as well.

 

[alphatron]

I have to admit, this is pretty damn impressive. I think the major reason Infernape isn't replacing Blaziken is that when considering Ninetales it leaves you only 4 slots to use for resisting types, which lends itself more to a hyper offensive approach. There's also the lack of relative speed. Infernape is fast, but it can't touch scarfers, which Blaziken could do. All Blaziken really needed was Flare Blitz / Hi Jump Kick / Swords Dance / Protect and it beat pretty much everything short of Chandelure, while Infernape is fairly easy to revenge kill. idk, just my thoughts.

It is true that Infernape is easier to handle than Blaziken, but the potential is there and he just needs a bit of team support. Scarfers are handled by Wobbufett, as are the generally faster pokemon such as Starmie and the lati twins.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

*sigh* Damn server.....what do you guys think of Reflect Type Latias? It seems gimmicky and the loss of Dragon STAB hurts, but I wanna try it.
Ideas?


I also got to say that Wobbuffett is hilarious to use.

Set up a shit-load of hazards
Wobb switches in
Wobb encores Ferrotroll's Spikes or whatever
Tickle Ferrotroll to -6/-6
Switch in Max Attack/Max Speed Scrafty
Set up a DD(Carry a Lum Berry is you want)
Sweep

:3

 

[astrohawke]

*sigh* Damn server.....what do you guys think of Reflect Type Latias? It seems gimmicky and the loss of Dragon STAB hurts, but I wanna try it.
Ideas?


I also got to say that Wobbuffett is hilarious to use.

Set up a shit-load of hazards
Wobb switches in
Wobb encores Ferrotroll's Spikes or whatever
Tickle Ferrotroll to -6/-6
Switch in Max Attack/Max Speed Scrafty
Set up a DD(Carry a Lum Berry is you want)
Sweep

:3

I don't understand. Why would you tickle to -6 only to switch to a scrafty who's going to set up 1 DD while the ferrothorn switches out. Am I missing something?

 

[IcyMan28]

Infernape @ Life orb
Trait: Blaze
Nature: Naive
Evs: 44 Atk, 212 spA, 252 spd
-Nasty Plot
-Fire Blast
-Close combat
-Vacuum Wave/Grass Knot

I'm not gonna bother drawling on about it's utility. Here are some calcs.

Infernape is still good, but it gained a considerable amount of checks since last gen and with the shift toward bulky offense, it has more difficulty killing things with certainty should it find itself without a boost. Tying with Terrakion and Virizion does it no favors, and with Latios, Latias, Starmie, and the twins running rampant it has issues there, too.

It can definitely work with the proper support, that I'm not arguing with, but being so easily revenged and having slight movepool issues make it a tad shaky. And as previously mentioned, it is an additional fire-type when paired with ninetales that doesn't offer the sheer power of Darmanitan, the resistances of heatran, or the steamrolling effect of Volcarona. I prefer this set:

Infernape@Life Orb
Naive; 192 Atk / 64 SpA / 252 Spe

U-Turn
Overheat
Stone Edge
Close Combat

I can't remember what the SpA EVs were for at the moment, but this Infernape is better suited to the meta as it is right now, IMO. U-Turn is as good as ever, while Stone Edge compliments Close Combat's great coverage and power. Overheat gives it something to fry Skarm and Jirachi with and a super powerful attack once Blaze is active.

 

[BurningMan]

*sigh* Damn server.....what do you guys think of Reflect Type Latias? It seems gimmicky and the loss of Dragon STAB hurts, but I wanna try it.
Ideas?

While its a bit gimmicky i think it's definetelly usable, the ability to copy the enemys typing means that your opponent will have a hard time taking you down. As normal counters like scizor/TTar/jirachi usually have a no way to damage you when you have copied their typing and since most types tend to resist themselve it works against a lot other pokes.

I would go with:
Latias@Lefties
252 HP/252 Def or Spe /4 to SpA or Def
Nature:Timid/Bold
-Reflect Type
-Clam Mind
-Dragon Pulse/Surf
-Sub/Recover/Rest

The most important choice is between Sub or Recover. Sub protects you from status (especially the deadly toxic),it eases prediction and allows you to work similar like sub cm jirachi. Recover is obviously to get reliable recovery , but if you are not able to get a steel typing toxic will completly ruin you and other status isn't really good for you as well, rest is kind of a mix between the former two, but being immobile for two turns isn't cool especially if you copy a tping with a 4x weakness.

 

[Eggbert]

Reflect type lets you wall Scizor, but usually it won't do much. Alot of TTar just run superpower. Jirachi can still hit you with paralysis. You will also lose stab and excellent typing. It's alot easier just to eliminate Latias counters with something like Gliscor.