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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Well, CS Flygon using Stone Edge does ~81%-~96%, so it KOes with Stealth Rock support.
Or if the Thundurus is LO, then Flygon handles it pretty well. But you can'y really rely on either factor.
So Scarf Flygon isn't a very good Thundurus check.
But why would you use Scarf Flygon over Scarf Landorus?
Scarf Landorus can troll QD Volcarona and DD Mence. It also has a more powerful EQ, more powerful Stone Edge, and more powerful U-Turn.
All Flygon has is STAB Outrage... :/
Hippowdon counters Adamant LO Excadrill, but Balloon can SD as Hippowdon switches in, then 2HKO with Earthquake.
So Hippo checks Balloon, and counters LO.
I can't add much to the discussion because i am new in the forum and new to PO overall, but i will just give an opinion base in what i have seen from OU.
I think we should just ban the perma-weather inducers from OU and leave this just to Uber. The game would be overall more balanced and more fun. Right now i am just playing UU and RU as they are really nicer to play and open a lot more of possibilities, because weather teams are not near to be as dominant as in OU.
No need for complex bans or completely ban pokes, just banning the ability.
I wouldn't see that big of a problem with Excadrill or Thundurus outside of weather.
Just my 2 cents.
I think we should just ban the perma-weather inducers from OU and leave this just to Uber. The game would be overall more balanced and more fun. Right now i am just playing UU and RU as they are really nicer to play and open a lot more of possibilities, because weather teams are not near to be as dominant as in OU.
No need for complex bans or completely ban pokes, just banning the ability.
I wouldn't see that big of a problem with Excadrill or Thundurus outside of weather.
Just my 2 cents.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
Well actually I do use Scarf Landorus nowadays, it's just that I was replying to OP, who'd said Flygon.
Welp. Either way, I don't consider anything in today's meta to be broken.
I don't think weather should be banned, personally, but even if something needed to be banned, I DO think it should be the Pokemon.
Hippopotas and Snover, for example, nobody has any complaints about them in UU. They're not broken (which shows that the ability is not waht's broken too), so they shouldn't be banned.
There is no garchomp, excadril, ttar, or landlos running around in UU, And I am pretty sure no one gives a damn about abomasnow, so of course Snover is fine. UU did just ban drought though.
UU did have most chlorophyll pokemon and tons of Fire types too though :L
here's a lulzy check to excadrill:
gardivoir with trace and choice scarf. traces the speed boosting bit, and with scarf can then outspeed it and hit with focus blast.
alternately, max HP machamp takes a hit and throws a dynamic punch back.
these may not be great checks, but they are certainly unconventional and effective.
gardivoir with trace and choice scarf. traces the speed boosting bit, and with scarf can then outspeed it and hit with focus blast.
alternately, max HP machamp takes a hit and throws a dynamic punch back.
these may not be great checks, but they are certainly unconventional and effective.
Except you only have a 70% chance to get rid of Excadrill, and Gardevoir won't be able to do much after that.
As for Machamp, you could always just run Conkeldurr who does Max HP/Atk better, plus it could restore some HP with Drain Punch, although a +2 EQ has a decent chance of OHKO'ing WITHOUT a Life Orb (93%-110%). (With LO it's always an OHKO.)
auzmarill says hello to excadrill
haunter
Banned deucer.
Whimsicott is an excellent Excadrill check. It resists EQ and with defensive investment can take pretty much everthing but LO X-scissor. In return it can stun spore the mole making in useless or just encore its swords dance or EQ and then u-turn out giving your team the offensive momentum.
What Kefka said.
Also, Vulpix is the only Pokemon with Drought in UU. I'm not saying Vulpix wouldn't be broken in OU, but if people thought there was a problem with sun in OU, the best thing to do would be ban Ninetales. If there is still a problem, ban Vulpix. If there is not a problem, Vulpix can stay.
I don't know. I just don't think Hippopotas should be banned without any of us testing it. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy.
you switch it back... she also can carry hidden power fire or psychic and pull the same trick on chlorophyll users. or thunderbolt just to help screw with things.
and part of the reason machamp works so well is because for whatever reason, people seem to largely not know what he can do.
yes, terrakion can run the same set, but it also gets destroyed by the rare brick break excadrill. like i stated earlier, if you want to lure excadrill to stay in so you can check it, run a shuca berry. air balloon, while admittedly shaky is rather effective in checking excadrill. and im surprised how underrated cobalion is. other than the shallower movepool the thing is like lucario on steroids. cobalion has a nice niche as a volcarona partner with its dual rock resistance also. and how difficult is it to lure a ground move from an excadrill anyway? in my experience not very. it saddens me that people underestimate cobalion just because it cant hit as hard as terrakion, the thing's a fucking beast if you know what you're doing. i think im the only person actually using him lol.
similarly, gyarados can check excadrill when holding a charti berry. gimmicky? sort of. effective? fuck yeah. i hate the drill and want it gone as much as anyone, but im not afraid to use "shaky" sets to check it.
btw, i do appreciate my sets being called innovative. i just use what i like and what works well for me, it means a lot that someone acknowledges that i put thought into them.
Banning the whole Pokemon just for an ability is far stupider than banning the ability. Especially with the Blaziken situation.
Well that doesn't really matters, because Blaze Blaziken is still UU, and UU is better than OU.
Well that doesn't really matters, because Blaze Blaziken is still UU, and UU is better than OU.
Unless I missed something, pretty sure Blaziken is still Uber
The problem with speculating what will happen if <insert suspect> is banned is just that: it's only speculation. There's no possible way to be able to tell exactly what will happen if something is banned, and once it's banned, it's not coming back anytime soon.
That being said, I have literally no experience in the current metagame at all. I've been far too busy lately, but I'm planning on getting into it when things settle down. However, I have read through dozens of ages of suspect threads, so while I have no actual experience, I do know pretty much every argument for both sides of each suspect. Without bias, I might add, since I haven't won with or lost to any of the "broken/non-broken" factors that currently exist.
Going back to my initial point, I would like to ask, how hard would it be to open up (a) ladder(s) for suspect testing?
It seems fair enough to have a suspect ladder similar to the one that existed during the Gen IV Salamence test, and would give everyone a better idea of what the metagame would be like without <insert suspect>. I would propose to set voting requirements slightly lower for suspect test voters, but have them qualify to a certain level on both ladders, Standard OU and Suspect OU, to ensure that our voting pool consists of members who: are experienced with the current metagame, have a good idea of what the metagame would be like without <suspect>, and care enough about the metagame's future to play on both ladders, which will give the community the best opinions on what positive/negative changes there are and how to incur/stop those changes from happening.
That being said, I have literally no experience in the current metagame at all. I've been far too busy lately, but I'm planning on getting into it when things settle down. However, I have read through dozens of ages of suspect threads, so while I have no actual experience, I do know pretty much every argument for both sides of each suspect. Without bias, I might add, since I haven't won with or lost to any of the "broken/non-broken" factors that currently exist.
Going back to my initial point, I would like to ask, how hard would it be to open up (a) ladder(s) for suspect testing?
It seems fair enough to have a suspect ladder similar to the one that existed during the Gen IV Salamence test, and would give everyone a better idea of what the metagame would be like without <insert suspect>. I would propose to set voting requirements slightly lower for suspect test voters, but have them qualify to a certain level on both ladders, Standard OU and Suspect OU, to ensure that our voting pool consists of members who: are experienced with the current metagame, have a good idea of what the metagame would be like without <suspect>, and care enough about the metagame's future to play on both ladders, which will give the community the best opinions on what positive/negative changes there are and how to incur/stop those changes from happening.
Excadrill
What makes Excadrill broken.
The major problem about Excadrill is its ability Sand Rush (which provides a permanent doubles speed in SandStorm) combined with its already high base stats, decent bulk and a lack of counters. With Adamant nature it reaches 405 Attack (810 with SD) plus its 275 speed is now doubled thanks to SS, therefore reaching a staggering 550 which is even faster than the fastest Pokemon, Deoxys - speed form (504). Additionally, not only can it now outrun any non boosted Pokemon, it also outruns ALL revenge killers (choice scarf), however let’s not forget that unlike revenge killers who are stuck on one move only, Excadrill is free to use any move it wishes thus making it not only superior in speed but in general coverage too.
Another factor which contributes to Excadrill’s superiority is it’s typing – Ground/Steel. It resists SR, is immune to toxic and it cannot be paralysed/crippled by t-wave. Why does this matter? Because it allows Excadrill to be switched in and out repeatedly without having to worry about SR or toxic spikes wearing it down.
The only OU Pokemon to counter Excadrill effectively are Gliscor, Brongzong and Rotom-W. Skarmory is also a counter but on the whole it can’t do much to Excadrill. Priority i.e aqua jet Azumarill can revenge kill Excadrill (if it decides to stay in) however it will be 2KO’d by Excadrill’s EQ, therefore you only have one shot to switch in and aqua jet if you don’t plan on sacrificing another Pokemon. That being said, I’ve never seen Azumarill in OU and Azumarill would also need to carry choice band for the OHKO on Excadrill therefore making a predicted safe switch even easier. Conkeldurr on average will be 2KO’d by EQ (or OK’d with +1 SD) and it cannot OHKO Excadrill with mach punch even with iron fist ability.
The last somewhat counter to Excadrill are Balloon Pokemon, however I think it is ridiculous to list a Pokemon with this item as a good Excadrill counter as it emphasises how much people need to rely on it to stop this deadly sweeper. Anyway, for this to actually work in the first place the balloon cannot be broken for whatever reason otherwise you have just lost a reliable Excadrill counter.
Finally although there is an overall assumption that Excadrill has poor coverage, this in reality is not the case.
Excadrill (ground typing wise) hits everything hard but Flying (immume), Grass and Bug.
Pure Bug typing isn't used in OU and Bug/Steel takes neutral damage from stab EQ. Grass types are either hit hard with a super effective x-scizzor (except for those who are Fighting/Grass in OU) or hit hard with a 810att (SD) base 102 Return.
As for flying types they can be hit hard with a super effective rock slide.
If you noticed the four counters I've listed (Skarmory/Brongzong/Gliscor/Rotom-W), can handle Excadrill solely due to their typing or ability. Flying/Steel and Flying/Ground cannot be hit super effectively and Brongzong and Rotom-W have levitate so cannot be hit with stab EQ.
Therefore Excadrill is hitting almost everything hard in OU.
If this Pokemon is so broken why has it not been banned yet?
Excadrill is over powered in my opinion but it is far less obvious because it's much easier to counter one Pokemon than a whole entity of 'Drizzle' sweepers. Excadrill and Garchomp (with no Fire Fang) were the most common sand sweepers both having similar counters i.e Skarmory, Gliscor, and Brongzong, which therefore made it generally easier to counter than Drizzle. The other main reason it is not banned yet is because of the other existing weathers, but the whole concept of let’s keep Drizzle OU because SS will become overpowered is a joke to me. If Drizzle is broken it should banned no ifs and buts - no matter how much it effects Sandstorm, it is the only way to make a start towards a more desirable and balanced Metagame. Rome wasn’t built in a day and “if you don't take the first step you'll never know what will happen.”
What makes Excadrill broken.
The major problem about Excadrill is its ability Sand Rush (which provides a permanent doubles speed in SandStorm) combined with its already high base stats, decent bulk and a lack of counters. With Adamant nature it reaches 405 Attack (810 with SD) plus its 275 speed is now doubled thanks to SS, therefore reaching a staggering 550 which is even faster than the fastest Pokemon, Deoxys - speed form (504). Additionally, not only can it now outrun any non boosted Pokemon, it also outruns ALL revenge killers (choice scarf), however let’s not forget that unlike revenge killers who are stuck on one move only, Excadrill is free to use any move it wishes thus making it not only superior in speed but in general coverage too.
Another factor which contributes to Excadrill’s superiority is it’s typing – Ground/Steel. It resists SR, is immune to toxic and it cannot be paralysed/crippled by t-wave. Why does this matter? Because it allows Excadrill to be switched in and out repeatedly without having to worry about SR or toxic spikes wearing it down.
The only OU Pokemon to counter Excadrill effectively are Gliscor, Brongzong and Rotom-W. Skarmory is also a counter but on the whole it can’t do much to Excadrill. Priority i.e aqua jet Azumarill can revenge kill Excadrill (if it decides to stay in) however it will be 2KO’d by Excadrill’s EQ, therefore you only have one shot to switch in and aqua jet if you don’t plan on sacrificing another Pokemon. That being said, I’ve never seen Azumarill in OU and Azumarill would also need to carry choice band for the OHKO on Excadrill therefore making a predicted safe switch even easier. Conkeldurr on average will be 2KO’d by EQ (or OK’d with +1 SD) and it cannot OHKO Excadrill with mach punch even with iron fist ability.
The last somewhat counter to Excadrill are Balloon Pokemon, however I think it is ridiculous to list a Pokemon with this item as a good Excadrill counter as it emphasises how much people need to rely on it to stop this deadly sweeper. Anyway, for this to actually work in the first place the balloon cannot be broken for whatever reason otherwise you have just lost a reliable Excadrill counter.
Finally although there is an overall assumption that Excadrill has poor coverage, this in reality is not the case.
Excadrill (ground typing wise) hits everything hard but Flying (immume), Grass and Bug.
Pure Bug typing isn't used in OU and Bug/Steel takes neutral damage from stab EQ. Grass types are either hit hard with a super effective x-scizzor (except for those who are Fighting/Grass in OU) or hit hard with a 810att (SD) base 102 Return.
As for flying types they can be hit hard with a super effective rock slide.
If you noticed the four counters I've listed (Skarmory/Brongzong/Gliscor/Rotom-W), can handle Excadrill solely due to their typing or ability. Flying/Steel and Flying/Ground cannot be hit super effectively and Brongzong and Rotom-W have levitate so cannot be hit with stab EQ.
Therefore Excadrill is hitting almost everything hard in OU.
If this Pokemon is so broken why has it not been banned yet?
Excadrill is over powered in my opinion but it is far less obvious because it's much easier to counter one Pokemon than a whole entity of 'Drizzle' sweepers. Excadrill and Garchomp (with no Fire Fang) were the most common sand sweepers both having similar counters i.e Skarmory, Gliscor, and Brongzong, which therefore made it generally easier to counter than Drizzle. The other main reason it is not banned yet is because of the other existing weathers, but the whole concept of let’s keep Drizzle OU because SS will become overpowered is a joke to me. If Drizzle is broken it should banned no ifs and buts - no matter how much it effects Sandstorm, it is the only way to make a start towards a more desirable and balanced Metagame. Rome wasn’t built in a day and “if you don't take the first step you'll never know what will happen.”
Yoshiken, someone will always find something suspect, it's true. That's why having bottom requirements on the standard ladder and suspect ladder would give us the best idea on what is truly broken and what isn't. Requiring voters to meet a set rating on both ladders within the testing period would make sure that we have a decent voter pool.
If a suspect is voted out after a testing period, then the suspect ladder from the recent round would become the new standard ladder. If a suspect is voted OU, nothing will change. The suspect ladder can, of course, change based on which suspect is excluded from it during different testing periods.
At this point, there seem to be three groups of people right now (my opinion of course):
The ban-happy group. These people want <suspect> banned, and once <suspect> is banned, they find a new suspect.
The anti-ban group. These people are so determined not to ban anything that they simply argue with the ban-happy group and nothing ever goes anywhere.
The rest. This very small group of people seem to actually think about the metagame, and put care and effort into their posts, instead of complaining about bans or yelling about how they're correct.
Please, people, think about the metagame. What we decide matters to a lot of people, and snap decisions shouldn't be made on a whim.
If a suspect is voted out after a testing period, then the suspect ladder from the recent round would become the new standard ladder. If a suspect is voted OU, nothing will change. The suspect ladder can, of course, change based on which suspect is excluded from it during different testing periods.
At this point, there seem to be three groups of people right now (my opinion of course):
The ban-happy group. These people want <suspect> banned, and once <suspect> is banned, they find a new suspect.
The anti-ban group. These people are so determined not to ban anything that they simply argue with the ban-happy group and nothing ever goes anywhere.
The rest. This very small group of people seem to actually think about the metagame, and put care and effort into their posts, instead of complaining about bans or yelling about how they're correct.
Please, people, think about the metagame. What we decide matters to a lot of people, and snap decisions shouldn't be made on a whim.
One of the better checks to Excadrill, I've found is Rock Polish Landorus. As long as they don't have Frustration/Return, you can switch in and proceed to set up a Rock Polish, outspeeding them and hitting back hard for the KO.
The problem being you've named four moves, whereas almost all Excadrill run SD with three moves. Two of these will always be EQ and Rock Slide, so once you've found out its last coverage move, it's just a matter of switching in the appropriate counter to that set.
A fast sweeper with near (but not quite) perfect coverage. Now who are we talking about again? Not sure, because that describes almost all good OU sweepers. In fact, many have better coverage, and his power, while vey good, is not exactly absurd or anything. What sets him apart is the speed. But when you are weak to two common priority moves, that takes a bit of the shine off that speed. Add in the fact that removing sand makes him nearly a liability, and its not as amazing as it first seems. I mean, you listed a decent number of Pokemon who are checks or counters, and all of them bar Azumarril are pretty high OU. Its not like he is lacking in the check/counters department.
Now I am not bashing Excadrill. It is an amazing Pokemon and a top OU threat, but I don't see how being a powerful, but somewhat frail and completely sand dependent sweeper makes it broken. As far as I am concerned, all that does is make it an Excadrill.
That is exactly my point. If there is no weater around it will still be a great pokemon, but it will far from broken as it will be checked by almost any scarfed sweeper.
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