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np: SM UU Stage 2.1 - You're Welcome (Manaphy quickbanned - see post 92)

Discussion in 'UnderUsed' started by Hogg, Jul 17, 2017.

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  1. Christo

    Christo
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    Its quite funny how fighting types keep getting put on the chopping block. First Buzzwole, then Heracross in RU, and now hopefully Conkeldurr. I have absolutely nothing to add to be honest. Conkeldurr is very clearly broken. The idea of something having no counters is usually exaggerated, but in this case it completely applies. Conkeldurr has literally nothing to switch into it. Usually pokemon of this speed tier or similar have clear downsides, such as being easily revenge killed or being frail defensively. This does not apply to Conkeldurr as it's priority Mach Punch is extremely strong and it's bulk is above average even with no investment in HP. Teams need at least 2 bulky resists that outspeed as well as no more than 1 pokemon that give it a free switch to have any shot at not getting completely eaten alive. One would imagine that stall teams have found clever ways to combat Conk, but that isn't even true. Conk demolishes any common stall team, because I don't think anyone wants to use defensive rest talk Cofagrigas or some shit.

    Just ban it
    tenkai, tmacbalanced, Snoo and 13 others like this.
  2. Bread_Wood

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    Although I do think Conkeldurr is a combination of too many good things, and is likely banworthy, there have been posts about hera's stallbreaking abilities being at least as good as conkeldurr, but lacks that valuable priority and sustain. In my experience, machamp also breaks stall at least as well as conk does, even getting a (weaker) priority move, but still lacks the sustain that makes conk such a pain to deal with.

    I think the argument against conk can't revolve around how good he is against stall/defence, since other guts users still demolish it, but how difficult he can be to revenge kill before doing serious damage to your team, due to conk also having access to powerful priority and sustain, which sets him apart from other guts breakers.
    pokeisfun likes this.
  3. Overdragoon

    Overdragoon

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    Hello! Does anyone know where I can vote on the suspect? I already identified and provided my reqs but I've spent an hour looking for the thread with no success.
  4. Highways

    Highways Sove Landslash
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    The thread will be posted until tomorrow. You will be tagged and you'll receive an alert, don't worry about it :]
    (you should worry if you're voting no ban tho grrrr)
  5. Overdragoon

    Overdragoon

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  6. Hikari

    Hikari
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  7. geeezer

    geeezer

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    Can we get rid of xurkitree now please? Shit post ik, but others have already pointed out why its broken. Aurora veil is starting to get annoying af aswell tbh. Although getting rid of xurkitree should make it less problematic
    Darksafadao and pokeisfun like this.
  8. Freeroamer

    Freeroamer The greatest story of them all.

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    Banette-Mega moved from OU to UU
    Aggron-Mega moved from OU to UU
    Scolipede moved from OU to UU
    Salamence moved from OU to UU
    Abomasnow-Mega moved from OU to UU
    Manaphy moved from OU to UU
    Camerupt-Mega moved from OU to UU

    Swampert-Mega moved from UU to OU

    Tier shifts for this month, first of all the pokemon we lost I think everyone was expecting with how strong rain is in OU rn, so up moves Pert.

    Got some very strong drops, I believe Salamence was banned with Dnite and Gyara in early UU, but I'm not sure on that, Scolipede might be in that boat too. Manaphy will break defensive teams in half while actually having a solid defensive typing giving it more usefulness in matchups across the board than something like Xurkitree for example, but as it can't boost it's speed and power without sacrificing a decent amount of coverage it can probably be offensively checked by more dudes, although very difficult to OHKO. I think this will probably end up being broken but only time will tell... Aggron will be cool, although it competes with Steelix who I think will be a better choice in most scenarios. Aboma and Camel will also be cool and might find some niche, while Banette will probably just drop further.

    e: OK just had it confirmed that Scoli and Mence are actually BL

    one for fun:
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Hydro Vortex (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Rain: 685-807 (95.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
    jdcomix, Snoo, The Idealistic and 5 others like this.
  9. BPGXMG

    BPGXMG

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    Salamence and Scolipede were in fact banned. With BP gone though, I think it'd be fair to unban Scolipede, but I don't know if that'll happen.

    And now... well I don't think Offense as a playstyle is going to like this shift. Mega Swampert was a god for offense. Now Offense also has Mega Aggron to deal with, which is very difficult to break on the physical side. That being said, Manaphy is a godsend and will likely take the role of rain-dance sweeper up from Mega Swampert (as I've heard the water z set is becoming viable again). Camel, well, I don't think it'll do too well with all the waters around. Aboma might do well, I can see it being somewhat decent - fightings and fires ruin it and it's extremely slow but it seems to have a good matchup vs a lot of threats with a good offensive typing and Ice Shard, though Weavile will naturally be better. This is all I can tell from this early.

    EDIT: That calc is disgusting. I'm beginning to question if Manaphy is healthy or not. It's decent vs offense thanks to Z Rain Dance, and it demolishes stall and balance. It has bad coverage issues, but this is alleviated with minor support that lets it just win games. Someone already changed their name to Ban Manaphy. Yeah IDK if this has a place in UU anymore.

    NEW EDIT: Yep Manaphy has already gone lol. Anyways, I'm agreeing with the "PSA" below on Tsareena and Decidueye. The two are truly terrible pokemon and genuinely should not be used on the vast majority of viable teams. I'd also like to note that Foretress is a very mediocre mon right now that still made the UU cut. It's a steel that spins and sets hazards but due to a lack of reliable recovery, sheer passivity and bad sp def, it's pretty mediocre at all 3 of those roles. Use Scizor for removing and steel type instead. Please.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
    Romanticist likes this.
  10. pokeisfun

    pokeisfun Follow me on twitter @NathanQWong for UU content!
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    Wow my only initial thought is there are so many Pokémon in UU right now. Even with the last shift we gained a net of several Pokémon, now we're getting even more (and a couple BL2 are offcially UU again) and all of them seem competitively relevant.
    Just incredible how many Pokémon are in UU now.
  11. eaglehawk

    eaglehawk once known as smogon gay baby #4

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    SD Scolipede is pretty good against a lot of matchups.
  12. Nightingales

    Nightingales

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    Actually, if memory servers me correctly, Scolipede was banned before Baton Pass even. So it's probably still a pain in the ass.
    Melons-N-Soda likes this.
  13. BPGXMG

    BPGXMG

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    You mean after? Because if it was banned before, then BP was likely part of the reason why.
    If it was after, then yeah it has no place in UU.
  14. Ban Manaphy

    Ban Manaphy Even the sun goes down
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  15. Nightingales

    Nightingales

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    I think it was that. Ny words and my head aren't quite in straight today. Either way, still a busted.
  16. CodeRed23

    CodeRed23

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    I kinda like what we've gotten this time around, Mega-Swampert leaving is probably more of a game changer then any of the new drops and I'm prefectly fine with that, not everything needs to make a big splash in the meta to be effective. As for my thoughts on each of them, well.

    M-Banette has only gotten worse this gen thanks to the prankster nerf, and to add insult to injury dark types are a common sight in UU. I can't see it being used outside of metronome battles and low ladder.

    M-Aggron will definitely see some usage thanks to it's massive bulk and handy ability, but as long as Xurkitree is here I think M-Steelix will be generally favored over Aggron. It's also worth pointing out that M-Aggron doesn't handle Z-Thunder Lati terribly well either, so another point for Lix.
    +1 252 SpA Latias Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron-Mega: 248-292 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Scolipede and Salamence are both in the same boat of being BL mons who we're pretty sure are still a bit too much for UU but might be worth testing at some point in the future, their Z-move sets make them pretty dangerous so their chances of seeing action seem iffy at best.

    M-Abomasnow will be interesting to see in action and could possibly shake things up quite a bit, adding an extra nail in the coffin for any remaining rain teams while also giving us something else to toss at Xurkitree in hopes that it'll be able to check the opponents set. It's typing and speed will probably hold it back from being a major threat but it's something you'll want to keep in mind.

    Manaphy doesn't really need to be discussed, does it? I can't see this thing staying and I doubt anyone would be able to make a good argument in favor of keeping it.

    M-Camerupt has excellent timing, joining just as rain teams take a heavy blow, it might be fairly decent in the current meta with things like MowTom and Weavile running around, but I can't see it working terribly well outside of Trick Room. It still falls over to Xurki's Grass Knot too.

    TL;DR version: Rain is a lot less scary and we have a few new options for team building
    G-Luke likes this.
  17. Hogg

    Hogg tweedy impertinence
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    After discussing this with the UU council and tour directors, we have come to a decision regarding Manaphy.

    Manaphy will be quick-banned from UU, with a suspect test to decide whether or not to reintroduce Manaphy to take place to follow.

    The driving factor behind the speed of this decision is the ongoing UU Open, of which round 4 is scheduled to begin in a few hours. While as a general rule we do not make tiering decisions for the sake of tours, the general consensus among those we have spoken to is that a suspect of Manaphy was inevitable, and by handling things this way we do not disrupt the largest UU tour in Smogon's history.

    More explanation (open)

    The two main factors we considered were as follows:
    • The likelihood of a suspect: Even if UU Open were not a contributing factor, everyone I've spoken to agreed that Manaphy would likely be a prime candidate for a suspect test. While Xurkitree has even greater offensive potency, Manaphy's superior bulk, Speed and defensive typing makes it significantly harder to check. Backed by Rain Dance to provide both a power boost and a functional status immunity, it has the potential to power through most defensive teams. These same factors also make it far more dangerous when facing down offensive teams as well, as even an uninvested Manaphy is a challenge to revenge kill, especially when using Z-Rain Dance. Its Speed tier places it above common scarfers such as Hydreigon and Krookodile, its typing resists the two most common forms of priority in the tier, and its natural bulk means that common revenge killers such as Scarf Latias can 3HKO it at best. All these factors combined left us feeling strongly that, even if a new round of UU Open were not imminent, a suspect test would be almost guaranteed for Manaphy.
    • The option with the least harm: Even if after a proper suspect we determine that Manaphy is actually not unhealthy in UU, the biggest risk is that we delay its introduction into UU for a couple of weeks. On the other hand, if Manaphy proves to be as problematic as some suspect it will be, it can potentially disrupt a round of one of Smogon's flagship tours, and the single largest UU tour in Smogon history. We agreed that this was the best option for keeping a stable UU metagame without causing undue disruptions to major tours.


    Please stay tuned for more information regarding a Manaphy retest.

    Tagging Eyan and The Immortal to implement a Manaphy quickban once the ladder is updated.
    jdcomix, Gorechomp, Santu and 64 others like this.
  18. Venoxio

    Venoxio

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    Manaphy more like Banaphy amirite lol


    No seriously, this thing is so busted and doesn't need to be reintroduced to the tier. Don't really need to make a detailed post, but its basically Xurk on steroids, with a better typing, bulk, speed, and near-perfect coverage. No reason to unleash this monster.

    On another note, Mega Camerupt and Mega Aggron both look to be nice megas that can shred balance and wall balance respectively. With a lack of relevant fire types besides Infernape and Volcanion, having a Fire type that can also beat mons like Xurk reliably is always a good addition. Due to Xurk and a few other mons Aggron is definitely inferior to Steelix in some situations due to mostly Xurkitree, but its still a very solid wall and Filter only makes it better. I see it performing similarly to last gen.

    Aboma and banette are hot trash
    BPGXMG and Muscle K like this.
  19. MasterAmpharos

    MasterAmpharos

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    Manaphy trades xurk's raw power for better everything else. Z-Rain Dance + 3 Attacks/ Tail Glow + 2 attacks on paper looks to be a very potent wallbreaker capable of breaking standard offensive cores we see in the current meta such as Lati/Prima/Ape. It's speed tier, above average bulk and defensive typing and god like coverage will certainly give builders headaches to revenge kill as it beats common scarfers such as Infernape, Terrakion, and Krookodile, and sets up on Latias locked into Draco Meteor. I agree with decision to quickban as the thing will undoubtedly shake up all of UU Open if set loose. This quickban is as relieving as the ending to Dunkirk (awesome movie btw) and when the suspect comes, I will be hopefully getting reqs and voting ban.
    BPGXMG and Amane Misa like this.
  20. Eric Jiang234

    Eric Jiang234

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    I agree with everything said here, Manaphy would merely destroy any semblance of stability in the UU meta if it were to drop during UU Open. While it may not have Xurk's raw power, who needs 173 Sp. Attack when you also have TG, better bulk, and speed? It can even afford to go Modest on Z-Rain Dance sets and outspeed Mega Aero at +1. That along with being quite possibly on of the most versatile mons UU will ever have (assuming we have a suspect test later on), Manaphy probably would've been more busted than Zard Y in Alpha with its versatile sets, whether it be TG + 3 attacks, Z-Rain Dance, or hell maybe even a CM set. As stated, it checks a good majority of the metagame with its base 100's across the board, and can easily set up on various walls, choice locked users, and of course mons that it checks naturally (eg. Krook, Metagross, Hippowdon). I'm still hoping it gets reintroduced in UU later so I can earn free points on the ladder.

    Also speaking of the other drops, Mega Camerupt and Mantine look to be a great defensive core, checking each other's weaknesses nicely. M-Aggron will be as wally as ever and will have a perfect spot in UU checking many mons, and Aboma and Banette can go rot in NU after the next couple of tier shifts.

    One final PSA:
    59 | Decidueye | 2.973%
    61 | Tsareena | 2.803%

    To whoever is using these mons on the ladder, please let these mons go to RU , they would be much better there. Please...
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  21. BPGXMG

    BPGXMG

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    Is it really worth a suspect? I'm not suggesting the council is wrong or anything, but I'm just not sure. Most people agree this thing is as broken as it gets - like Kyube level or Dragonite or even Zard Y - and I think that most of the players are agreeing that it shouldn't be. I'm not saying the council is wrong but is the option of just not suspecting it and maybe doing a public suspect on something else like Xurkitree or unbanning another BL mon that isn't considered as broken in the air?

    EDIT: Ok yeah thx. Though I wasn't suggesting the quickban was wrong - it for sure wasn't. I'm just asking of the option of not suspecting Manaphy and just letting it stay BL is in the air.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
    Eric Jiang234 likes this.
  22. Adaam

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    I disagree with the common sentiment that M-Steelix > M-Aggron. Filter is such a good ability and honestly the Ground-typing is really overrated unless you can't fit a different Ground and don't want to be blown back by Beedrill VoltTurn. M-Steelix pretends to check Xurkitree anyway so running Aggron doesn't make you that much weaker to it. Mono-Steel typing also gives you an Ice resist and Water neutrality so you can comfortably take on two of the most threatening Pokémon in the tier: Weavile and Mega Sharpedo.

    Of course, Filter is what makes Aggron the better choice if you can aren't VoltTurn weak. When I ran Steelix I've found it takes stray HP Fires, EQs, Drill Runs etc pretty badly for something that's supposed to counter Latias/Aero/Bee/Toge/Pidgeot but Aggron simply does not give a shit about that. Pair it with obvious Wish support and this thing will not die. I think it can fit well on BO teams as well as a reliable SR setter and can check Superpower Scizor fairly well with Fire Punch. Some calcs just to show how much Filter makes a difference:

    Show Hide

    252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 133-157 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 158-188 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO

    252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 81-96 (23.5 - 27.9%) -- 81% chance to 4HKO

    252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 126-150 (35.5 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    +2 4 SpA Togekiss Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Filter Aggron-Mega: 231-273 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 4 SpA Togekiss Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 276-326 (77.9 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Strong Jaw Sharpedo-Mega Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aggron-Mega: 100-118 (29 - 34.3%) -- 3.7% chance to 3HKO

    252 Atk Sharpedo-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 134-158 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 204-243 (59.3 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 272-324 (76.8 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO




    Obviously Aggron is not a Heracross counter but the point is Aggron is significantly bulkier and gets some useful resistances/neutralities that Steelix does not.

    As for the others, Abomasnow looks neat with a set of Ice Shard / Giga Drain / Blizzard / HP Fire. Not a fan of Wood Hammer since you cannot switch into Scald as comfortably. SD also looks threatening to any team lacking Scizor, but at this point those are a minority lol.
    wishes, Cheryl., Pak and 15 others like this.
  23. bsu

    bsu
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    the new megas (mostly camel and obama) do a gr8 job of soft checking xurkitree too which is nice. i feel like trick room might become a thing again too which would be refreshing
    ceal likes this.
  24. Freeroamer

    Freeroamer The greatest story of them all.

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    Agree for the most part about Aggron vs Steelix, lots of points you made that I didn't consider initially. The only thing I wanted to say about losing the electric immunity is that Gigavolt Havoc Latias becomes more of an issue. I'm on phone currently so copying the calc is a pain, but +1 Gigavolt does 64-76 to max/max, meaning if you switched into an earlier Draco or Thunder and then some SR or whatever, you're under a lot more pressure than you would be with Steelix. I get that this could be applied to Hydro Vortex Lati and Steelix, but that's a lot rarer. For the sake of teambuilding I'd always try and pack a Latias revenge killer as well as a solid switchin so you can get out of these situations. Aggron does seem better in most scenarios though.
    BPGXMG, Romanticist and Adaam like this.
  25. brodudeguy1

    brodudeguy1

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    I think the next suspect should be hawlucha. It feels way too similar to gyarados, salamence, and porygon z in that it is excessively hard to wall after it's speed and attack boosts and is also too hard to revenge kill. The reason it is so hard to revenge kill is that it lives priority moves under aura veil. I have been using alolatales and hawlucha myself and when I can get a swords dance and sky attack off, the sweeps come too easy. I'm also encountering many other players with alolatales and hawlucha and the mirror matchup is very annoying. It's pretty much a race to get hawlucha in under aura veil so that it can just sweep before the opponent gets his hawlucha in.
    This game in particular shows how broken hawlucha is: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-613334554
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