np: SM UU Stage 2.1 - You're Welcome (Manaphy quickbanned - see post 92)

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Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
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#1

UU is suspecting Conkeldurr. Despite its low Speed, Conkeldurr is a behemoth, with decent bulk and an incredible Attack further boosted by Guts Flame Orb. With few viable Ghost-type Pokemon in the tier, Conkeldurr is free to spam the incredibly potent duo of Drain Punch and Facade, which at worst 2HKO the vast majority of the tier. Those few Pokemon that might consider switching into these attacks almost universally fear Knock Off, and with powerful priority to mitigate its poor Speed and the ability to run moves such as Bulk Up to further punch through bulky teams, Conkeldurr has managed to surpass such threats as Primarina and Xurkitree to become the premier wallbreaker in UU.

As was previously discussed, this suspect test will be conducted via a public suspect. Conkeldurr will not be allowed during this test.

The suspect test will have an N value of 20 and a COIL requirement of 2650. In addition, there will be a game limit of 90 games. It will last for two weeks.

You can calculate the number of games required using this formula:

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2650)

Also, this wasn't announced in the last thread, but as we are moving away from the previous tiering system, UU no longer requires a rotating council. Therefore, we have moved Amaroq, TDK, Christo and SmashBrosBrawl to full council. In addition, Aquadext has stepped down from the UU council. The current council is as follows:

  • Amaroq
  • Christo
  • Eyan
  • Hikari
  • hogg
  • pokeisfun
  • Pearl
  • Sacri'
  • SmashBrosBrawl
  • TDK
  • Tony
 
#3
Yeah Conkeldurr is stupid. Fat wallbreakers that soft-check half the tier are nothing new, but the problem with Conk is what it has over others like Blastoise, Metagross, Volcanion, etc, and that is recovery and priority. The aforementioned threats can be a big nuisance to balance, bulky offense, and even hyper offense due to their ability to beat most frail to moderately bulky things that can't hit them super effectively (and even some that can) 1v1, and those mons are balanced because you can feasibly make a plan to wear them down without sacrificing too many mons or too much momentum. But if you don't OHKO Conkeldurr straight away -- a feat that is pretty much reserved for Primarina, Starmie, LO Latias, Mega Pidge, and Specs Togekiss -- and you don't resist Fighting, then not only is your mon dead, but fuck you Conk is back at full again and you've accomplished nothing. And it's not like you can pressure it offensively and minimize its Drain Punch recovery, either, because it can just pick off low health mons with Mach Punch. There are situations in which you can maneuver yourself to where Conk is in range of your attack and you're not in range of Conk's, but the work required to get to get yourself in that position versus the amount of effort needed for Conk to just come in and spam Facade then heal itself with Drain Punch is so skewed that most of the time the damange has already been done. I'm voting ban.
 
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#4
What is changed from ORAS? Looking at the ORAS UU, the number of the Ghost-types is the same
Flame Orb / Burn only does 6.25% now instead of 12.5%, meaning Conk is taking less residual damage per turn. So, unlike in ORAS Conk can afford to switch into and out of play more often, and Conk can now take on Fighting resists with Facade without losing nearly as much health. There's also more frail, fast mons weak to Fighting this gen (Weavile, Terrakion, Sharpedro) so Conk has more things that are likely to flee at the sight of it.
 
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Nuked

A closed mind is already defeated.
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#8
I think Conkeldurr needs to go, the amount of pressure it can put against literally every playstyle and the high amount of opportunities it gets to come in and kill something is just too much. The fact that it can mindlessly 2hko the entire tier with essentially 2 moves (especially with rocks up, since would-be "switch-ins" like Alomomola just drop to 2 Facades at that point) and the fact that it live almost any physical hit and gain health back with Drain Punch (think Mega Swampert, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Absol, etc) is way too much for any given team to realistically deal with. Its low speed really isn't even that much of a problem when you're taking into account that the combination of Facade / Drain Punch and Mach Punch is 2hkoing almost every offensive threat in the tier, and given the fact that it can actually live most hits and gain back 30-40% with Drain Punch right after that means that it still gets more opportunities to kill shit later in the match. Conkeldurr also basically has the best stall matchup of any Pokemon in almost the entire tier, with the exception of maybe Crawdaunt, and the amount of opportunities it gets to come in on walls and start doing massive amounts of damage (think Quagsire, Amoonguss, Mega Steelix, Krookodile, etc) is just way too much for that team archetype too. Please ban.
 
#9
If I get reqs at all I'm voting ban on this thing. This is one of the reasons I quit UU, and is in fact the last thing standing in my way of getting back in (since Buzzwole was my main reason and now that's gone). It was already decent enough in ORAS but waaaaay too much good has been done for it. Fairies aren't half as dominant as they were in ORAS, with Sylveon and Florges having fallen off due to their poor physical bulk. Fighting resists/immunites in general just aren't very common anymore. The neutral coverage of Façade is insane and what it doesn't hit (steels, ghosts and rocks) are bopped by Drain Punch, Mach Punch and Knock. The thing is, though, those moves not only give it perfect coverage but are what imo push it over the top. Drain Punch does a shit ton to steels like Scizor and Steeliz-Mega and it heals Conk. With that damage it's going to heal off quite a bit and recover off lots of the burn damage that it had and then you can't revenge it and now you just have nothing to tank its Facades at all. Psychics and Ghosts lose their items if they switch into knock which just really hurts their effectiveness for the rest of the match. Thus, they're only checks and due to the decent bulk not very good ones. Mach Punch can barely be tanked my offense and it gets a kill on anything weaker that's not resistant or immune, but then knock just does them over. These 3 moves make dealing with the Facades nigh impossible.
Needless to say, this thing puts quite a bit of restriction on teambuilding. I quit UU back when the new tier shifts happened because there was just too much of a restriction on teambuilding creativity and this is one of the last reasons why. One cannot get away with at least 2 good checks for this thing and with more than one mon weak to it. This thing is unhealthy AF imo and it just needs to go.
I'll write more when it's not late at night.
 
#10
Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Facade
- Mach Punch
- Bulk Up

I've been running Jolly Conkeldurr quite a lot recently. I don't find the drop in power noticeable, and at +1 you still have no switch-ins. Jolly allows me to get the jump on opposing Conkeldurr and allows me to out speed one soft check commonly utilised by stall: Togekiss. According to PIFs recent RMT he's currently running a 0 speed Bold Togekiss variant. Conkeldurr is able to maintain a 2HKO on Togekiss after rocks with a Jolly nature; it's also able to out speed it. Facade is still able to 2HKO Quagsire, and Alomomola gives Conkeldurr an opportunity to further boost its stats. Any competent stall player understands the risk of running EVs to creep Jolly Conkeldurr. I thought I would post this set here to highlight how ridiculous I think Conkeldurr is in the current metagame.

252 Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 180-212 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 270-318 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
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#11
Honestly I was on the fence about conk since the bulk up sets are wall by ghosts mons, but with the addition of the best trapper in the tier in weavile thats easily remedied. It also has great coverage moves in knock off ice punch among others. There's pretty much no reason to not run conk as your fighting type mon. Usually with offensive mons like this there are fat mons that can check it like alo hippo cune etc. but all conk needs to do is click drain punch and conk is back to full and you're back at square 1 but down a mon. Honestly i feel like conk does need to go. BAN
 
#13
Conkelldurr is truly a wallbreaker with no switch-ins. Facade, Drain Punch, Knock Off and Mach Punch along with Guts boosted attacks, Latias, Togekiss and Starmie aren't switching in anytime. Bulk Up and just all out attacking sets put massive holes in stall. However, while the beginning of this thread mentions "despite it's low speed" makes it seem like speed isn't too much of a problem, it really is. This low speed compounded with it's low special bulk easily leaves it as bait for special-attackers like Starmie, Latias, Togekiss and much more. While most special-attacking threats can't switch in to Conk, they can just come in and threaten it out or use it as setup fodder. There are ways to play around Conkeldurr, as the user of Conkeldurr still has to predict around switches and such. While "it has no switch-ins" or "drain punch recovery" are common arguments to prove conkeldurr should be banned, standard pokemon like Primarina that arent just slapped on a team just to check conk are able to come in after Conkeldurr gets a KO and forces it out or revenge kill it. The way to play around Conkeldurr is not to switch things in. Pick a sack, then deal with it. "Oh but if a Pokemon requires the opponent to pick a sack it's broken!!!!!". Plenty of pokemon in the UU metagame require picking a sack: Primarina, Volcanion, Hydreigon, Darmanitan but they aren't broken. NO BAN for conk.
 
#14
There's a difference between Volcanion, which can only bust past bulky Water-types with a well-timed Z-move (which you can only use once, and which presents an opportunity cost since by running Bloom Doom you can't run any other Z-move on any other Pokemon); and Conkeldurr, which can pull the trick over and over since its moves aren't restricted the same way, and because it stays around a lot longer due to recovery from Drain Punch and various other little benefits (eg resistance to Stealth Rock).
 
#15
Conkelldurr is truly a wallbreaker with no switch-ins. Facade, Drain Punch, Knock Off and Mach Punch along with Guts boosted attacks, Latias, Togekiss and Starmie aren't switching in anytime. Bulk Up and just all out attacking sets put massive holes in stall. However, while the beginning of this thread mentions "despite it's low speed" makes it seem like speed isn't too much of a problem, it really is. This low speed compounded with it's low special bulk easily leaves it as bait for special-attackers like Starmie, Latias, Togekiss and much more. While most special-attacking threats can't switch in to Conk, they can just come in and threaten it out or use it as setup fodder. There are ways to play around Conkeldurr, as the user of Conkeldurr still has to predict around switches and such. While "it has no switch-ins" or "drain punch recovery" are common arguments to prove conkeldurr should be banned, standard pokemon like Primarina that arent just slapped on a team just to check conk are able to come in after Conkeldurr gets a KO and forces it out or revenge kill it. The way to play around Conkeldurr is not to switch things in. Pick a sack, then deal with it. "Oh but if a Pokemon requires the opponent to pick a sack it's broken!!!!!". Plenty of pokemon in the UU metagame require picking a sack: Primarina, Volcanion, Hydreigon, Darmanitan but they aren't broken. NO BAN for conk.
Let me stop you right there. None of these mons have priority. Volcanion is ass, Prima and Hydreigon still have hard counters, and Darm is a meme with some checks. None of these mons have reliable recovery like Drain Punch. None of these have a 140 BP drawback free move. Darm has to kill itself, Hydreigon lowers its own SpA, and Prima has to risk missing Hydros. Conkeldurr is in no way setup fodder, if you're dumb enough to set up on it you will get blown back by facade. Your mentions of Togekiss in the mons that outspeed is laughable, as current stall builds run 0 speed toge, you can outspeed toge by running jolly as noted by excellent player pokemon sparrow earlier in this thread. Also, if a mon forces you to sack something every single time it comes in, it's not healthy (those mons you listed still have hard counters). Yes it has low speed, but because if it's high hp and defensive stats it's not really an issue + it's low Spdef is made up for by above average HP which allows it to survive some special attacks from full. The main issue with Conk is that it has no switchins AND pressures every playstyle to the point of 50/50s every time you face it. Conk has no hard counters, and every turn it comes and forces something out, it's a 50/50 and if you get it wrong, you're punished by losing a top tier threat like Latias/Prima if you're offense and if you're balance/bo than losing a mon in general puts you on a back foot and you have to play perfectly to pull it back. This is extraordinarily punishing and leaves holes for the opponent's other Pokémon to exploit and that level of punishment for a 50/50 is too extreme. If I am a good enough player to be getting reqs, this is a definite ban vote.
 
#16
Well, I figured this was gonna be one of the first ones to be publicly suspected. Homeboy pokemon sparrow beat me to the punch for the main argument, but I'd like to extend a bit from his point for my argument



Conkeldurr @ Flame Orb

Ability: Guts

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

Jolly Nature

- Drain Punch

- Facade

- Mach Punch

- Bulk Up


I've been running Jolly Conkeldurr quite a lot recently. I don't find the drop in power noticeable, and at +1 you still have no switch-ins. Jolly allows me to get the jump on opposing Conkeldurr and allows me to out speed one soft check commonly utilised by stall: Togekiss. According to PIFs recent RMT he's currently running a 0 speed Bold Togekiss variant. Conkeldurr is able to maintain a 2HKO on Togekiss after rocks with a Jolly nature; it's also able to out speed it. Facade is still able to 2HKO Quagsire, and Alomomola gives Conkeldurr an opportunity to further boost its stats. Any competent stall player understands the risk of running EVs to creep Jolly Conkeldurr. I thought I would post this set here to highlight how ridiculous I think Conkeldurr is in the current metagame.


252 Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 180-212 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 270-318 (72.3 - 85.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While this is a solid point and example, I don't this isn't the sole reason to construct a ban argument, as that's what the wallbreaker class of pokemon is supposed to do (conk being no exception here). HOWEVER, most wallbreaker mons are also balanced out by some weakness or counterplay, including:

1. below average combination of speed and/or at least one defensive stat so high offense mons can take them down before they can get in a hit (e.g Hoopa and Nidoking)

2. Fear/necessity to avoid having their wallbreaking potential neutralized/limited by status effects (particularly toxic and burn, paralysis to a lesser extent)

3. shallow movepool so their attack patterns are predictable and easier to read and play against (not many examples of this in UU that I can think of atm, but Mega-Manetric in OU is a prime example of this)

4. The necessity to first use a setup move in order to wallbreak and/or sweep late game (Tail-Glow Manaphy in OU, Bulky SD Scizor and SD/DD Feraligatr + Haxorus in UU, etc.)


Conkeldurr in UU metagame doesn't have these weaknesses (or rather, they are mitigated entirely by its strengths):

1. The only definitively low stat conkeldurr has is speed, but the combination of high HP and decent defenses + drain punch allows it to body most strong non-super effective hits and recover most of the damage off. In addition, mach punch allows it to circumvent its low speed and pick off weakened threats.

2. Sharkeisha has Guts...not much else needs to be said here

3. Conk's movepool is FAR from shallow. In addition to the standard set described above, it can run coverage moves including knock off, thunder punch, ice punch, and posion jab depending on what your team needs coverage against

4. Bulk up helps Conkledurr wallbreak, but is not completely necessary thanks to flame orb + guts combination (demonstrated by Sparrow's calcs above)


Ultimately the argument for Conk comes down to the main (albeit controversial because most people, myself included sometimes, get the definitions misconstrued) arguments when it comes to banning pokemon: checks vs. counters vs. counterplay. Personally I'm of the opinion that no counterplay (not necessarily no counters), constitutes a solid banworthy argument. And based on both what I've seen and my own personal use with Conkeldurr, with no viable switch-ins, its wallbreaker weaknesses mitigated by its strengths, and very easy-to-complement team support options (some major examples include pairing with Weavile on Offense to cover it’s two most notable checks in Bird Jeezus and Latias, and my personal favorite being scarf latias healing wish pass so I can initially use Conkeldurr more recklessly in early-mid game then bring it back from near-death late game to clean up a weakened enemy team), I believe that Conk is pushed past the "no counters" state and into "no counterplay" territory. Therefore, I am leaning towards BAN for this suspect test.
 
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#18
WHY ISNT THERE A XURK SUSPECT OVER THIS TEST? YES PICK THE SLOW CHECKABLE WALLBREAKER OVER THE WALLBREAKER THAT SWEEPS IF A TEAM ISNT RUNNING A STEELIX OR A FUCKING TOGEDEMARU
As much as I agree with this, it hasn't got a thing to do with Conk. Also, Mega Steelix isn't completely bad anyways and there are ways to play around Xurkitree.
 
#19
WHY ISNT THERE A XURK SUSPECT OVER THIS TEST? YES PICK THE SLOW CHECKABLE WALLBREAKER OVER THE WALLBREAKER THAT SWEEPS IF A TEAM ISNT RUNNING A STEELIX OR A FUCKING TOGEDEMARU
Xurkitree cannot fully heal himself by killing your sack so he can barely survive the revengekill attempt and fully heal back again while he KOs your "check".
 
#22
I saw it once on the ladder, but I feel like tail glow variants would still beat it.
It actually counters Tail Glow sets pretty well too if it's running encore and some speed and beats Xurkitree with Toxic+Wish. It can even handle Xurkitree at +3 if it's running Grass Knot instead of Energy Ball (
+3 252 SpA Xurkitree Hidden Power Ice vs. 104 HP / 252 SpD Togedemaru: 97-115 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 5.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery).

But of course that still means you'd be using Togedemaru which is otherwise worthless.
 
#23
In short, I don't think xurk was suspected because yes, it can wallbreak so easily, but its speed is its main downfall and electric isn't the best defensive typing in the meta atm. (even at +1 it doesn't outspeed one of the most dominant mons in the meta, Mega aero, and is outsped by other common scarfers such as Krook and Infernape.) but this isn't a xurk suspect so let's move on to the main topic at hand.

Conkeldurr is definitely a prime target for a suspect with the guts buff (or burn nerf, whichever you wanna call it), and thing is, Conk has very few definite encounters, not hard to see that. with options like Poison Jab, thunder punch, and Facade it can decimate an opposing team very easily. but what differentiates conk from other slow hitters are two things: access to recovery and solid priority. You may be wondering: Scizor has these things too, why isn't it broken? Conk just packs so much of a punch with any move it selects, and it can easily decimate checks to it with the right move, as shown by these calcs. Even switchins like Alo and stuff die to Facade/Drain Punch after hazards and Conk can easily just recover off any damage it takes.

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 402-474 (133.5 - 157.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 296-350 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 221-260 (45.9 - 54%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And it does huge DOMAGE to meta threats it's not even super effective against, like Mega Aero, Scizor, and Mega Swampert. Not to mention, while Latias is fairly omnipresent, aside from that, Fighting is a great offensive type in the meta right now, and Conk's access to priority makes it so that it, even with its ass speed, can utilize this to the fullest. In the S and A ranks in the viability alone, there are so many mons weak to Fighting that get decimated by Mach Punch like Krookodile, Weavile, Mega Shark, and Terrakion. But Drain Punch is what really pushes Conkeldurr over the edge for me. Other hard hitters like Primarina and offensive Scizor get worn down very easily, and therefore, cannot punch holes. Conk doesn't have that problem, and with ghosts lacking (seriously i can't find any lmao) Conk can just kill something and get damaged, Drain Punch and rewind. Conk's consistency, typing, bulk, and access to recovery and priority make me say plsban

lolripweavilecheck2k17
 

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#24
WHY ISNT THERE A XURK SUSPECT OVER THIS TEST? YES PICK THE SLOW CHECKABLE WALLBREAKER OVER THE WALLBREAKER THAT SWEEPS IF A TEAM ISNT RUNNING A STEELIX OR A FUCKING TOGEDEMARU
this is the conk suspect but I am going to go crazy if I hear this sentiment about xurk echoed one more time

Xurkitree will sweep your team in such a manner if you decide that positive natured base 83 speed is something you cannot reach. That is a conscious decision you make when building your team. It's not really a mystery or something all that complicated: if you are not able to defensively check xurk adequately, you can bring something faster than it to make it less of a threat. This isn't a revolutionary concept - stall teams have been bringing offensive mons (duggy, scarf/band ttar, weavile) for a very long time.
 
#25
WHY ISNT THERE A XURK SUSPECT OVER THIS TEST? YES PICK THE SLOW CHECKABLE WALLBREAKER OVER THE WALLBREAKER THAT SWEEPS IF A TEAM ISNT RUNNING A STEELIX OR A FUCKING TOGEDEMARU
This nigga gets it.

Anyway, as stated above, Conk hits like a truck, has above average bulk, powerful priority moves, and worst of all, NO SWITCH INS. Ghost types? Wrecked by Knock Off. Fairies and Fying types? Rocked by Facade. Anything else? Get smacked with Drain Punch, Conk heals up, and you're back to square one except with one less mon. Honestly, the burn nerf this gen really did wonders for Conk, as it turned a decent bulky attacker into the second best wall-breaker in the tier (behind Xurk). Honestly, there really isn't anymore to say and this is a very easy decision for me. Ban the clown on roids!

But seriously though, Xurk needs to go, too
 
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