np: SM UU Stage 4.2 - Paper Planes (Latias-Mega Banned)

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#26
The Snake Draft tournament is currently ending and Mega Latias has been available in the tier throughout the tour. I've noticed that the discussions didnt make much use of high level replays even though 45 extremely competitive games occured while Mega Latias was available in the tier. Weavile and Mega Gardevoir were also available back then so I won't use replays in which those 2 had a significant impact.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-314766: Latias weakens significantly Mantine but gets poisoned in the process. It also managed to cripple Coba with Thunder-Wave which was quite good for me, however this replay also shows that Latias is quite weak without any spA, it failed to 2hko Cobalion and it could have been used as a set up fodder by a potential sub cm raikou.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-315477: Lycan's Mega Latias dodges a Thunder-Wave from Rotom-W but still fails to do anything significant. It had Dragon Pulse and HP Fire which was one of the best potential variants to beat my team but it still needed to predict on some key turns and to get a bit lucky to have an impact.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-317092: Latias faces stall and gets walled by Doublade and Blissey throughout the game thus failing to do anything.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-317245: Tesung's Latias does quite well here, HP Fire + Defog helped him a lot vs Klefki and it also got a kill on Hydreigon thanks to a good prediction. This shows the potential of supports sets which I find good but still far from groundbreaking.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-314913: Thanks to Weavile and Scizor's support, Latias ends up cleaning HT's weakened team. This shows how goold volt turn cores are at supporting fast win conditions but it also means that Latias can't just win on its own as some people seem to claim.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-317209: McM's latias gets trapped by a surprise Pursuit Snorlax and does nothing the whole game. This is a good exemple of an effective Latias lure.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-321351: Pearl's Offensive Latias manages to take down a Blissey at the cost of most of it's health thus letting tesung's Aero trapkill it. This shows that Latias can do well vs stall with the right variant but it is yet again far from being able to break them on its own.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-325482: Analytics Latias is sacrificed early on, most likely because it didn't have any tools to break Stall.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-324903: Lycans Latias puts in some work here, it walled Nihilego throughout the game and also forced Gliscor out a few times, it was still walled by Mcm's umbreon throughout the game though. McM's Latias on the other end, turned out to be walled by Mantine thus making it unable to do much this game.

These games show that Latias is usually better on paper than in practice. It is indeed able to fill many roles on team but each set has its flaws and require proper support to work decently. It's also true that finding out which variant is being used can be frustrating but the fact that Latias isnt that powerful makes it easier to scout its set so as to beat it properly. It takes some slight preparation to beat Latias but all things considered I don't think is nearly as threatening as many people seem to think.
What did you expect? If for some reason zygarde was in UU everyone would be using mamoswine, scarf kyurem and tangela in order to not auto-lose. Obviously all replays from ssd arent going to be Mlati-sweeps. Tournament-players know better than to bring teams that lose to the most prominent threat in the tier. Which is why mcmeghan brings Umbreon and Lycan brings Mantine. Not saying these pokemon dont have other uses than checking Mlati, but you get my point
 
#27
What did you expect? If for some reason zygarde was in UU everyone would be using mamoswine, scarf kyurem and tangela in order to not auto-lose. Obviously all replays from ssd arent going to be Mlati-sweeps. Tournament-players know better than to bring teams that lose to the most prominent threat in the tier. Which is why mcmeghan brings Umbreon and Lycan brings Mantine. Not saying these pokemon dont have other uses than checking Mlati, but you get my point
I'm on a rush rn so I can't reply to anything else for now, but what?

People blindly claim Mega Latias is unmanageable, unkillable and that you can't play around it. Sacri literally posted how the proven top players have dealt with Latias and showed that it hasn't done anything "ridiculous" in high level games so far.

I don't get your point. "If you don't prepare to Mega Latias at all, it's very likely you lose to it. Therefore, Latias is broken"?
 
#28
I'm on a rush rn so I can't reply to anything else for now, but what?

People blindly claim Mega Latias is unmanageable, unkillable and that you can't play around it. Sacri literally posted how the proven top players have dealt with Latias and showed that it hasn't done anything "ridiculous" in high level games so far.

I don't get your point. "If you don't prepare to Mega Latias at all, it's very likely you lose to it. Therefore, Latias is broken"?
No. He was trying to make a point by showing Mlati not crushing the opposition in tourney replays. And I argued that isnt valid because mewtwo could be played around in UU if you design your team well enough to stop it from sweeping. But its obviously not healthy. I havent looked at the stats over most used mons in recent tours, but I would think previously unused mons such as umbreon are used alot more as a consequence of Mlati being here. Youre not gonna see a particualar mon doing extreme amounts of work in high level play, because those people are aware how dangerous that pokemon is, and therefore prepare. What it does do however is restrict teambuilding in a certain way, which I personally, and it seems alot of other people here think makes it broken.

Edit: Just watched team preview on all the replays posted. And all the matches had either stall or umbreon or bronzong in them. Atleast the ones after the Mgard/Jirachi/weavile bans. I think its fair to say both bronzong and umbreon were considered objectively bad before the Mlati meta, but theyre in 3 or 4 of the matches sacri posted. That is atleast an indication that Mlatis presence is unhealthy.
 
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Sacri'

Itching for a fight
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#29
Edit: Just watched team preview on all the replays posted. And all the teams were either stall or had umbreon or bronzong in them. Atleast the ones after the Mgard/Jirachi/weavile bans. I think its fair to say both bronzong and umbreon were considered objectively bad before the Mlati meta, but theyre in 3 or 4 of the matches sacri posted. That is atleast an indication that Mlatis presence is unhealthy.
Dude, Mega-Garde and Weavile were available in every single replays. Bronzong was mostly used to beat Gardevoir but it also did quite a good job at beating Nihilego, Togekiss, Mamoswine and Aerodactyl to name a few. As for Umbreon, McMeghan (the only player who actually brought it) used it to handle Weavile, Sharpedo-Mega, Aero-Mega, Latias, Manectric-Mega, Krookodile and Mamoswine. In the replays that I posted, 12 teams out of 18 didn't have bronzong, umbreon, nor were they stall. I'm honestly getting tired of people being fully biased just to back up their invalids arguments.
 
#30
OK damn, Ill admit I might be biased, but honestly these things are never factual unless the pokemon in question has no actual counterplay, in which case there is probably no question about it. Ill admit I dont like having to pack bulky toxic mons, it reminds me of NU and I like NP Infernape so ye. Fuck the Mlati meta. Not fun. Im out
 
#31
These are the two sides of the argument that im seeing:

Keep Mlatias: Mega latias can be played around if you bring bulky toxic pokemon, klefki, or alolan muk.

Ban Mlatias: Mega latias restricts teambuilding (overcentralizing) and can occasionally break through its checks by using certain movesets.

I think the anti-ban argument is a true statment, but it has a crucial flaw. Just because a pokemon can be "played around" doesnt mean it's not broken. For example, mega slowbro can be "played around" by using toxic, swords dance, and choice specs electric pokemon, yet it was still declared broken due to the amount of preparation required to take it out without most of your team getting severely chipped and worn out. On the other hand, the ban argument is legitimate because there are only a select few pokemon that can suppress mega latias enough to prevent it from putting in too much work. Players should not be forced to run a bulky toxic pokemon just to prevent losing to mega latias.
 
#33
koko pretty much sums up what i've been wanting to say except, y'know, better
except mgard can stay away

anyways, if it was either bulk or power it'd be fine, and i get it takes only one thing to snowball it but if you look at top-tier threats that aren't mlati, none of them really have the potential to snowball out of control quite so well, bc let's face it, this thing is bulk

yes there's counterplay, but it's not a vacuum, and i'm pretty sure that already teams are running more cleric support for this thing, so it's not that hard to support either because the thing is made of bulk

ban seems like a pretty good option

also an afterthought; has anybody else thought mlatios would be less of an issue than mlatias or is it just me
 
#34
koko pretty much sums up what i've been wanting to say except, y'know, better
except mgard can stay away

anyways, if it was either bulk or power it'd be fine, and i get it takes only one thing to snowball it but if you look at top-tier threats that aren't mlati, none of them really have the potential to snowball out of control quite so well, bc let's face it, this thing is bulk

yes there's counterplay, but it's not a vacuum, and i'm pretty sure that already teams are running more cleric support for this thing, so it's not that hard to support either because the thing is made of bulk

ban seems like a pretty good option

also an afterthought; has anybody else thought mlatios would be less of an issue than mlatias or is it just me
I agree with you wholeheartedly about the m-latias. I'd like to make a suggestion though.
For the OU By technicality (Garchomp-Mega, Latios-Mega), I wonder if it would be a good idea to allow that pokemon in a lower tier but it would HAVE to hold that megastone (illegal w/o the megastone, legal with that megastone). Mega Latios would be easier to handle (less defenses, although slightly higher SpA could be an issue). Still be good, but not banworthy.

Mega Garchomp on the other hand might be too much. Seems like a diggersby or mega heracross in that it is a medium-slow but VERY HARD hitting physical attacker. Costs the mega slot though, and 4x ice weakness and 2x fairy weakness really hurts.
This is legal: the thing on the bottom. (Same with mega-chomp under my proposal)

Anyone like my proposal? (OU by technicality can go to UU but those pokemon HAVE to hold the megastone).
 

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#36
I find Mega Latias ridiculous in the tier and needing of a ban. Really the only consistent way to beat it is spamming Toxic on random Pokemon or using previously close to unviable Pokemon like Umbreon. Muk is pretty consistent too but only because the ladder isn't using Reflect Type that much yet.

Here's some ridiculous calcs for you:

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 120-144 (32.9 - 39.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

So we all know by now that Sylveon doesn't come close to countering Latias Mega (which is already a red flag considering its a Fairy and is a balance staple). But did you know that the standard max HP CM Mega Latias COUNTERS Sylveon. This is absurd.

How about this?
252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 216-254 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Latias has a small chance to actually beat Primarina ONE ON ONE if SR is up and Primarina came in from 100%. This is also absurd because Primarina is the strongest Fairy attacker in our tier.

I won't even show the calcs for various Scarf Draco Meteors versus Latias Mega after a CM because they are just too sad.

Basically this thing is way too bulky for a fast and moderately powered attacker and has no counters.

As for Sacri's post, I think the points he raise are all 100% legit but come on, look at the usage stats for Mega Latias (not regular Latias). Isn't it a ridiculous near Scizor rate even though it doesn't have the same safety mechanism that Scizor offers? Of course people are overprepared for Latias.
 
#37
I find Mega Latias ridiculous in the tier and needing of a ban. Really the only consistent way to beat it is spamming Toxic on random Pokemon or using previously close to unviable Pokemon like Umbreon. Muk is pretty consistent too but only because the ladder isn't using Reflect Type that much yet.

Here's some ridiculous calcs for you:

0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 120-144 (32.9 - 39.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

So we all know by now that Sylveon doesn't come close to countering Latias Mega (which is already a red flag considering its a Fairy and is a balance staple). But did you know that the standard max HP CM Mega Latias COUNTERS Sylveon. This is absurd.

How about this?
252 SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 216-254 (59.3 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 0 SpA Latias-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Latias has a small chance to actually beat Primarina ONE ON ONE if SR is up and Primarina came in from 100%. This is also absurd because Primarina is the strongest Fairy attacker in our tier.

I won't even show the calcs for various Scarf Draco Meteors versus Latias Mega after a CM because they are just too sad.

Basically this thing is way too bulky for a fast and moderately powered attacker and has no counters.

As for Sacri's post, I think the points he raise are all 100% legit but come on, look at the usage stats for Mega Latias (not regular Latias). Isn't it a ridiculous near Scizor rate even though it doesn't have the same safety mechanism that Scizor offers? Of course people are overprepared for Latias.
That's not a counter at all, thats a shaky ssi that really isnt even that as it only switches in by virtue of choice lock. Even in a revenge kill scenario sylveon need to have been weakened first unless its locked into a non fairy move, in which case ofc.
 
#39
I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me.

If you're disagreeing, can you explain why again?
I was disagreeing with the specific accuracy of you claims about latias - "But did you know that the standard max HP CM Mega Latias COUNTERS Sylveon. This is absurd." - since this is factually inncorrect. A counter must be able to switch in to any move and win after stealth rocks. Latias is also not a GSI because of this, limiting it to an SSI (situational Switch in) which is pretty far removed from that claim. Latias is also really not great even in that role, as it doesnt prevent latias from doing its team support tole (wishpassing and heal bell) and is very vulnerable to sylveon crits or entry hazard+hyper voice pressure.

E: I would also protest the point that it has no counters, but I think the core point of them not carrying accross sets well and being hard to come by is a fair one.

E2: got my wires crossed, fixed
 
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eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#41
Read my calcs again, yes it does win.

The first Hyper Voice does 59% max. You switch in it.

Then you CM as it Hyper Voices again which does 40% max.

Then you roost up and set up. Soon you aren't even at a risk of dying to a crit when you get to 100%.
1) Are we assuming no SR in this situation? Your logic only works under no SR conditions, and in reality, MLatias will rarely be at max health since it will be using its bulk + resistances to switch and pivot, especially in a meta that's heavily influenced by chip damage i.e. VoltTurn

2) Is MLati a counter to Sylveon if it can't switch into more Offensive variants i.e. Specs, a rare but equally valid set?

Honestly, it's not a counter if it can't survive in the worse possible controllable case scenario. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if Rocks didn't mess up your calculations
 
#42
Read my calcs again, yes it does win.

The first Hyper Voice does 59% max. You switch in it.

Then you CM as it Hyper Voices again which does 40% max.

Then you roost up and set up. Soon you aren't even at a risk of dying to a crit when you get to 100%.
Counters have to switch in, throughout the battle, and must be able to do so after SR; that is their defining trait. What you describe is at best a check because of that, and only a SSI to boot. With the not a check part, I got that mixed with primarina so my bad; the post has been edited to reflect that. Nevertheless, Mega Latias is neither a counter nor the highest form of check, so its disingenous to say that it is a counter in a pro ban argument.
 
#43
I'm not saying people should or do use Latias Mega as their counter to Sylveon. I'm saying that the fact it can comfortably switch in and win without SR, or the 80% of the time Sylveon is busy Protect scouting / Wishing / Heal Belling is incredibly worrying and the fact that you guys rather nitpick on definitions of counter and if SR is up shows me you totally miss the larger point which to be 100% clear is this:

It is disturbing that a balance staple that is supposed to be a good special and Dragon check in Sylveon gets completely dismantled by Latias Mega.

Maybe you don't find it disturbing, which is a completely reasonable position, but if so, explain why not instead of trying to inflate extremely minor points like "oh Latias Mega might lose if SR is up and tries to counter Sylveon."

Ask what's an SSI? I really don't know and google didn't help me
 
#44
I'm not saying people should or do use Latias Mega as their counter to Sylveon. I'm saying that the fact it can comfortably switch in and win without SR, or the 80% of the time Sylveon is busy Protect scouting / Wishing / Heal Belling is incredibly worrying and the fact that you guys rather nitpick on definitions of counter and if SR is up shows me you totally miss the larger point which to be 100% clear is this:

It is disturbing that a balance staple that is supposed to be a good special and Dragon check in Sylveon gets completely dismantled by Latias Mega.

Maybe you don't find it disturbing, which is a completely reasonable position, but if so, explain why not instead of trying to inflate extremely minor points like "oh Latias Mega might lose if SR is up and tries to counter Sylveon."
Personally, I dont find it particularly disturbing in and of itself, as defensive sylveon isnt that powerful; most calm mind pokemon defeat it. As part of a greater pattern it becomes more so (ie, while latias has many counters they dont tend to carry over between sets reliably so each less counter hurts), but to me bypassing sylveon is not particularly worthy of note, nor is being able to potentially OHKO primarina after rocks at +1; its thunderbolt against a water type, its not going to bounce off. To me, Latias' main issue is that of unpredictability, as even if you have counters for all sets at team preview you dont know which ones you can afford to let get weakened or koed until you see it in action, at which point its usually too late (and thats leaving aside the real possibility that you wont have said answers). I'm currently undecided in voting myself, but its not clear if I'll even have time to make reqs so.
As for how this related to the point, I felt that latias deserved to be judged on its actual merits, so I asked that you remove the factually innacurate claim of sylveon being countered by Mega latias. To me, its the same thing as correctigng a damage calc claim; yes, each individual one may be unimportant, but they add up and in any case we should endeavor to be accurate in our arguments whenever possible.
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#45
I'm not saying people should or do use Latias Mega as their counter to Sylveon. I'm saying that the fact it can comfortably switch in and win without SR, or the 80% of the time Sylveon is busy Protect scouting / Wishing / Heal Belling is incredibly worrying and the fact that you guys rather nitpick on definitions of counter and if SR is up shows me you totally miss the larger point which to be 100% clear is this:

It is disturbing that a balance staple that is supposed to be a good special and Dragon check in Sylveon gets completely dismantled by Latias Mega.

Maybe you don't find it disturbing, which is a completely reasonable position, but if so, explain why not instead of trying to inflate extremely minor points like "oh Latias Mega might lose if SR is up and tries to counter Sylveon."

Ask what's an SSI? I really don't know and google didn't help me
I just find it disturbing that they let you be in charge of the VR thread.

Also this: It is disturbing that a balance staple that is supposed to be a good special and Dragon check in Sylveon gets completely dismantled by Latias Mega.

It doesn't get completely dismantled. Things will look scary if you analyze them in a vacuum, but you have to see things from a big game perspective i.e. Rocks, prior damage, which phase of the game you're in to fully make a judgement on MLatias. Hogg and co have analyzed MLatias from this position, whereas you posted calcs and theoretical situations that rarely reflect reality, Boris Johnson.
 
#46
Counter or not, its still crazy to me that latias has the potential to set up on a fairy which is staple on a lot of balance teams. What this really shows is that a lot of the tier's special attackers are useless against CM lati. After +1, hydreigon has to get two flinches to win. Say what you will about all the other ways of beating latias, but if it eliminates a great portion of the tier it might be troublesome.

Also I get your point Eaglehawk, about looking at things from outside a vacuum, but truth be told it's not hard to have more than 50% health on latias when youre in on sylv, and thats like all you need to beat it. I've done it before. Maybe we'll be seeing toxic sylveon?
 
#47
Why do we bother debating about the definition of a counter...? Also, what are these random obscure acronyms being thrown around? WTF is a GSI and a SSI lol.

I think the point being made here is that MLatias is fucking hard to reliably beat, even if you supposedly have a bunch of fairies, which supposedly are good against dragon types. Offensive playstyle have almost no counterplay for a +1 MLatias, legit the only reliable way is just to run toxic on random shit. Even then, you might still struggle with reflect type, or to a less extend, the rare refresh set.
 
#49
This thread reminds me my primary school days. pokemonisfun was only saying that you CAN switch into a strong fairy stab by being a dragon type and can use it as a set up fodder potentially.

Back on suspect: Mega Latias can either be used as an offensive mon or a utility mon. It has reliable recovery and great coverage. While BoltBeam gives really good support to your team and CM makes it hard hitter after +1 (which is easy to get imo). And you will always have be prepared to face this. So, in my opinion if every team needs a check/counter for a specific Pokémon then it's broken. You always need a toxic user, a trapper and a Pokemon which checks Lati in order to deal with Mega Lati. Mega Latias should be banned as it restricts team-building.
 
#50
The alternative would be letting the metagame remain unbalanced, reducing the population (because for most people playing a shitty metagame is incredibly unfun, and for better or for worse the vast majority of us are here because we enjoy playing Pokemon), and overall hurt UU.

So, no.
Couldn't we just reduce the amount of pokemon dropping to UU by changing it so that only pokemon with a usage rate of (insert lower percentage here) or below drop?
 
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