np: SM UU Stage 4 - Scary Monsters (Jirachi banned, see post #76)

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Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#51
Been a while since I've posted here, so I thought I'd give some of my impressions of the meta as a whole...

Starting with the suspect, in a completely unsurprising turn of events, Gallade-Mega appears to be just as broken in practice as it appeared to be on paper. It has just the right combination of Speed, power and spammable STABs to threaten offense and fat alike, and it manages to do all this without being a complete glass cannon (it's certainly not bulky by any stretch of the imagination, but it's not nearly as frail as you'd expect of something with those types of offenses). This is a very easy decision for me: I'm going to vote to keep Gallade-Mega BL when the time comes.

As far as Heracross-Mega, I'm honestly not so sure. This is ABSOLUTELY broken on paper, and almost completely invalidates slower defensive teams. In practice, though, I've seen it decent but not actually overwhelming. This may just be a function of the meta itself, though—there's very little stall that I've come across on the ladder, and there are a ton of powerful offensive Fairy and Psychic types that limit Hera's usefulness despite its incredible bulk. That being said, when I laddered with Hera, it consistently put in work and its bulk meant it certainly wasn't dead weight even against more offensive teams. Unfortunately, it seems that not very many people are using it on the ladder, so I haven't really faced it on the opposing team more than a handful of times. Anyhow the jury's still out on this one, and I could easily see myself moving to a ban position (like I said, on paper this thing seems like the most obvious ban decision ever), but as for right now I'm honestly considering voting to unban.

Now, as for the others...

Jirachi - OK, this is difficult to really find a good starting point but I very much disagree with the people that are claiming that Scarf Jirachi is broken. It's certainly annoying and introduces more RNG into games than I might like, but I absolutely do not think it is broken on the strength of this set. Frankly if your team struggles against Scarf Jirachi to the point that you think it's broken than I expect you've got some serious teambuilding issues. If Scarf Jirachi is broken in UU because it can get some lucky breaks and flinch through its checks then it's broken in every tier, up to and including Ubers. That doesn't mean that I think we should completely ignore Serene Grace when we're talking about Jirachi, but I think that to ban Jirachi solely because Serene Grace is annoying (which is really the only reason anybody can argue that the Scarf set is broken) is a mistake.

That said, Happy Hour Jirachi really is obnoxious. Serene Grace is definitely a part of that, but the bulk and sheer versatility of the set are what make it really overwhelming. That bulk and Jirachi's wide movepool make HH Jirachi very difficult to effectively revenge kill after a boost (especially if you don't know its full set, as I've seen quite a few different coverage options on it), which in turn makes a couple of lucky flinches with Serene Grace even more overwhelming.

Now, here's the difficult part. While I very much disagree with the idea of preserving actively broken elements of a tier because they keep other threats in check, I think that a mon's position in the metagame as a whole is absolutely relevant when we're talking about a potential ban. This metagame clearly has problems, but I think there's a very real chance that Jirachi is the lynchpin that's keeping an already fragile meta from falling apart even further. If Jirachi is clearly and unequivocally broken then I think that absolutely it should be banned, regardless of its position in the meta, but if it's kind of hovering on the borderline, that's where things get messier. I don't think there's really an easy answer, but I also don't think that jumping straight into an immediate quickban or council ban is necessarily a great solution.

Altaria-Mega - I had suspicions that this would be busted as heck, but I wasn't sure. In practice, its success has been... mixed. It has such incredible bulk and one of the all-time best defensive typings, and there are a lot of teams where it theoretically just sweeps. In practice, though, it struggles with mediocre offensive presence, sometimes even after a boost, and a plethora of good Steel and Poison types that keep it in check. It has the tools it needs to break past more or less all of these, but it requires a fair bit of team support and even then there are some things that it pretty much always struggles with. For every game it sweeps, there's another where it gets trapped in an endless cycle of roosting and never manages to do anything particularly impressive.

Gardevoir-Mega - I've had a lot of success with Gardy; it has all the tools it needs to be incredibly threatening against most teams. With CM or Taunt it's especially brutal against bulkier teams, but the sheer spammability of Hyper Voice alongside a decent base 100 Speed and bulk that's not completely terrible (and actually pretty solid on the Special side) means that it has never really been dead weight. Of all the Megas other than Gallade, this one feels most on the borderline of being broken for me. The main thing holding it back is the omnipresence of Jirachi, which gets a free switch-in on any sets lacking WoW (and honestly still does a decent job of checking even if it does get burnt).

Latias-Mega - Really good, even with all the new Fairies and Steels. The only drawbacks are that Z-Latias is already so good (and shares the reduced Knock Off damage), and that there's a much larger opportunity cost to using this as your mega thanks to the other ridiculous megas in the tier. Even with that being the case, this is still really solid. There are a lot of really solid sets, including defensive sets, CM and offensive, and Latias was already a top-tier mon even without the mega. Give it a shot if you haven't already.

Manectric-Mega - I've actually really enjoyed Manectric, which I thought might end up being really limited in this meta. In practice, it benefits a lot from the fact that Scizor and Jirachi are probably the best non-megas in the tier right now, as it serves as a solid check to both while still maintaining good offensive presence against most teams.

Nihilego - Solid, definitely not broken but fun to use.

Rotom-Wash - Anyone surprised that this is already one of the most splashable mons in the tier? Certainly not broken but this is really good at checking a ton of threats and pivoting in a teammate, making it an immediate staple on bulky offense.

Smeargle - Holy crap if we banned things based on being annoying rather than being broken, I'd ban this way before I banned Jirachi. Its only viable sets are hazard leads but it's really good at that. Trying to play around Spore/Magic Bounce/Nuzzle makes this especially obnoxious as a lead, and while I certainly wouldn't call it broken, it's definitely good at what it does.

Ampharos-Mega - I think I've seen it once and it didn't do anything particularly notable.
Hi Hogg, I just wanted to say I really agree with your post, it's like you took the words right out of my mouth. However, in the case of Jirachi, if you're referring to my post, I do not believe that Scarf Jirachi is broken, but I thought it should be a set that's added into the argument, because I do see a lot of people talk about just ZHH when there are so many different other sets you have to prepare for.
 
#52
Jirachi - OK, this is difficult to really find a good starting point but I very much disagree with the people that are claiming that Scarf Jirachi is broken. It's certainly annoying and introduces more RNG into games than I might like, but I absolutely do not think it is broken on the strength of this set. Frankly if your team struggles against Scarf Jirachi to the point that you think it's broken than I expect you've got some serious teambuilding issues. If Scarf Jirachi is broken in UU because it can get some lucky breaks and flinch through its checks then it's broken in every tier, up to and including Ubers. That doesn't mean that I think we should completely ignore Serene Grace when we're talking about Jirachi, but I think that to ban Jirachi solely because Serene Grace is annoying (which is really the only reason anybody can argue that the Scarf set is broken) is a mistake.

That said, Happy Hour Jirachi really is obnoxious. Serene Grace is definitely a part of that, but the bulk and sheer versatility of the set are what make it really overwhelming. That bulk and Jirachi's wide movepool make HH Jirachi very difficult to effectively revenge kill after a boost (especially if you don't know its full set, as I've seen quite a few different coverage options on it), which in turn makes a couple of lucky flinches with Serene Grace even more overwhelming.

Now, here's the difficult part. While I very much disagree with the idea of preserving actively broken elements of a tier because they keep other threats in check, I think that a mon's position in the metagame as a whole is absolutely relevant when we're talking about a potential ban. This metagame clearly has problems, but I think there's a very real chance that Jirachi is the lynchpin that's keeping an already fragile meta from falling apart even further. If Jirachi is clearly and unequivocally broken then I think that absolutely it should be banned, regardless of its position in the meta, but if it's kind of hovering on the borderline, that's where things get messier. I don't think there's really an easy answer, but I also don't think that jumping straight into an immediate quickban or council ban is necessarily a great solution.

in response to bold parts
I agree with what bread_wood said about how the flinches pushes it over the top. if the opponent has a guaranteed chance to fire back an attack, given that it would live the attack, jirachi would be much easier to check, but the 60% chance to not retaliate and otherwise come out on top is rather uncompetitive. It's especially uncompetitive (in my opinion of the word) in UU given its power level relative to everything else in UU. its not as broken in OU and UBers bc everything is either way bulkier, faster, or can outright KO even a +1 jirachi rather easily, or popular meta mons resist iron head allowing for a greater chance to break through. given that, they have a much higher chance to hit jirachi back and prevent such a sweep. the Scarf set is also good because if paired with toxic spikes or paralysis support, it can quite easily flinch a team to death with the added help of more residual damage or greater flinch/para chances.

In terms of trying to keep the tier stable or whatever, I think in some cases that would be valid but not really in this case, where we just dropped a bunch of megas and other threats down to UU. if something disrupts the tier so much and warps so many mons and sets to counter it, i feel like that would be an indication that UU cant quite handle the mon and thus it should be banned no? perhaps theres a bit of new toy syndrome, but theres no denying that jirachi is a major threat to pretty much every team, and sometimes the only counterplay is hoping you don't get flinched. it doesn't help that it resists basically every priority except for like mach punch and sucker punch(which like only honchkrow gets now?????)
It seems like most people aren't really for jirachi staying, or theres not really any good arguments for it, so why not just quick ban and maybe suspect it later down the road? keeping it now in attempts to create a more stable meta seems pointless when as stronger things (i.e. gallade) get banned thats just one less threat instead of jirachi people can and will use.

also for mega heracross I'm like 200% sure once faster mons that wreck it (like gallade and gardevoir) get banned this thing will shine and then get suspected and banned, but it would be nice to be able to play with it in the tier for like a week or two without gallade and garde
 
#53
Personally I don't believe Serene Grace is the main issue with Jirachi, it's annoying beyond a doubt mind you, but so was Togekiss before Scizor and Weavile joined the tier. Granted Jirachi is a lot faster and more versatile then Toge, but I'm pretty sure we've all lost a few games to T-Wave/Air Slash spamming Togekiss's and yet it's uncompetitive nature hasn't been strong enough to warrant a ban so far, and it wasn't strong enough for Jirachi back in it's short time in UU during the XY meta either (or at the very least I don't remember it being a large issue, my memory isn't the best so don't quote me on that).

The main issue here is that between generations, Jirachi became an angry alcoholic and after having one of it's ''Happy Hours'' it gets rather unpredictable and violent, lashing out at just about anyone nearby with very little being able to stop it's drunken rampage as the liquor numbs it's body to large amounts of pain that would have otherwise knocked it out cold.
We either need to send Rachi to some AAA meetings and help it overcome this problem so it can have a shot at a normal life, or kick it out onto the streets of BL if we believe it to be incapable of turning over a new leaf, because as it stands we're only hurting ourselves by allowing it to continue behaving like this.
 
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#54
The main issue here is that between generations, Jirachi became an angry alcoholic and after having one of it's ''Happy Hours'' it gets rather unpredictable and violent, lashing out at just about anyone nearby with very little being able to stop it's drunken rampage as the liquor numbs it's body to large amounts of pain that would have otherwise knocked it out cold.
We either need to send Rachi to some AAA meetings and help it overcome this problem so it can have a shot at a normal life, or kick it out onto the streets of BL if we believe it to be incapable of turning over a new leaf, became as it stands we're only hurting ourselves by allowing it to continue behaving like this.
Jirachi would make a wonderful AAA employee with his Z-Happy Hour set.
Why did I make this?
So last gen I remember there being a fair amount of discussion about Jirachi before OU brought it out of UU before any sort of suspect or real impasse could be met. I thought it was a little much at the time and believed that the mon should stay even though it was annoying. This gen I'd like to see it at least get suspect tested though, as I feel Z-Happy Hour might be what pushes this mon over the edge. Its ability to boost all of its stats in one turn combined with its fantastic mixed movepool, and already solid defensive typing and bulk it's easy to find openings to set up and an absolute pain to revenge kill with its speed tier+resistance to the majority of priority in the tier.

I don't really know how to put this, because I feel like Z-Happy Hour on it's own isn't enough to get banned, but I think that it's the one set that when added to the rest pushes Jirachi over the point where it at least deserves it's own suspect.

As for the other mind being discussed, I think enough has been said of Mega Gallade so I have no intention of beating that dead horse. Mega Gardevoir is a really fun mon to have around, but it's ability to demolish slower teams makes it seriously unhealthy. Mega Heracross seems fine for now, but I'm worried that after we get rid of the other two problem megas that Mega Hera will become an issue. Not something to act on now of course but it'll be interesting to see how it plays out down the line.
 
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Eyan

c'est la vie
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#55
Alright, so I've played a lot of games on the suspect ladder—more than I probably will for any other suspect, so I feel like after ages of procrastination and not reading this thread much when I started this post ages ago, I can give an informed opinion on the suspected Pokemon, most new Pokemon, and the metagame as a whole; if there's some repeated stuff, it just proves my point of not reading. If I cheesed you somehow while playing, my bad, but if you were an ass, sucks to be you. Anyway, let's have a look at the suspects first.

  • Mega Gallade
This was the first thing I tested, and I'm thoroughly convinced it's as broken as we initially thought. You see it on team preview and you're like "huh, what do I do against that? I can't switch these Pokemon in because it gets 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt or Close Combat, and even if I get a chance at getting a hit off afterwards, it's pretty bulky." Of course, you can definitely check it, but the amount of pressure it exerts on teams when it comes out is absurd between its great power, good STAB moves + Knock Off, and access to Swords Dance. It doesn't help that it's also pretty fast, up to Speed tying with Latias. As far as checking it defensive goes, Swords Dance basically invalidates almost every would-be check, since Quagsire has a good chance to get 2HKOed by neutral Close Combat after Stealth Rock. I tried running stall myself, and fully defensive Mega Altaria did a decent job at checking it, but the logic still applies. No way I'm not voting ban on this one.

  • Mega Heracross
While boasting higher power, which usually puts it at a better matchup against hard stall teams, Mega Heracross and Gallade play out pretty similar in terms of how you can deal with it. However, what sets Mega Heracross apart is its noticeably lower Speed, which allows a greater number of Pokemon to be able to revenge kill it. At this point in time, I was really sitting on the fence, with one foot leaning towards unban. I played a bit more with Mega Heracross, and then also messed around with a Trick Room team with it by Hikari after getting fucked by it, being capable of screwing up both offensive and defensive teams; I don't think it's as broken as Mega Gallade, but I doubt I'm going to want to keep it in the tier now. Playing with Hikari's team basically gave me more insight because even outside Trick Room, the Mega Heracross on that team was never deadweight. The max HP still granted it a lot of utility, so I don't think the Speed is a big enough factor to hold it back from being relatively busted considering what else it's capable of. Probably going to try out some bulkier sets on non-Trick Room teams.

Next up, the other Megas that were dropped into the tier

  • Mega Gardevoir / Mega Altaria
I'm grouping these two together because while they aren't really the same, they do share a fair amount of things that are similar in terms of usage and team support. I'll point out the distinctions for sure though. Both those Pokemon suffer from the fact that a bunch of threats in the tier naturally check them, even though they do have ways of getting around them. They're probably the main Pokemon that are propagating the use of dual Steel-type frameworks on teams right now since the sets and switch-ins needed differ depending on what those two run, granted stuff like Scizor and Jirachi are gonna be amazing regardless. Something that I've noticed while running Altaria or Gardevoir as my Fairy-type is that they tend to make me weaker to Dark-types, mainly Weavile and Hydreigon. For Mega Gardevoir, think in terms of it being decently bulky specially, but never invested to actually take hits, while Altaria being weak to Weavile anyway, and it has to Mega Evolve early to take on Hydreigon. I'll talk more about this later on. That's pretty much it as far as the few similarities go.

Now for Mega Gardevoir specifically, it's probably the most broken Pokemon right now outside of the two suspects and the widely debated Jirachi. It hits hard and unlike other Fairy-types in the tier, it has actual Speed at base 100. Though 3/4 of its moves are fairly predictable, it really doesn't matter that much for Gardevoir when the only real variation it needs is in its last move. You've got Taunt or Calm Mind to help with the stall matchup, Will-o-Wisp to cripple stuff like Scizor and Jirachi, and coverage like Hidden Power Fire and Shadow Ball if you prefer just getting a good hit off on a usual check. I've even seen (and used) Protect on some sets to scout and lure stuff like Scarfed Jirachi paired with something along the lines of Pursuit Scizor. Point is, what it can fit tends to be all it needs. What's keeping it from being broken right now for me is the prevalence of the aforementioned Steel-types, which naturally check it, along with stuff like Nihilego still working fine with checking it in a pinch, although nothing really beats Jirachi in this aspect.

For Mega Altaria, it doesn't hit super hard right off the bat, and it's not that fast, but it gets points for the different sets it can utilise especially with its great defensive typing and bulk. Because it doesn't have the outright power that Gardevoir has (granted it's by no means weak), it requires a lot more support to make it work. Unsurprisingly, the most common sets are Dragon Dance variants. The Refresh mono-attacking variant basically makes it absolutely necessary to have Steel-types removed or severely weakened, but it's able to set up against a very large part of the tier, particularly status inducers like Rotom-Wash (it doesn't get 2HKOed by Mega Aerodactyl's Stone Edge too for example). That said, the issue with having to account for every Steel-type so much is that you tend to end up having to not cover one of the million other threats....unless you use Magneton. Magneton is something that's becoming really popular on Mega Altaria teams and for good reason, and it's almost a necessity if you're running mono-attacking. It has the ability (quite literally even) to compress a lot of the things Altaria needs to be gone into one team slot. Pretty much a general team structure for DD Altaria right now is Mega Altaria / Magneton / Pursuit trapper / 2x Other ways to switch into or fuck over Steel-types / pivot of choice like (Eject Button) Amoonguss or Rotom-Wash. With DD Earthquake, you do get a little more breathing room, but honestly, Magneton is just good to have; otherwise, you'd really want to still have some sort of Scizor lure along with general options for chipping at other Steel-types. Admittedly, I was one of the people that really thought Altaria would be broken, possibly due to flashbacks from early ORAS, but now, overall I don't think Altaria is all that broken. The fact that it has to run a certain general team structure to make it work (at least for DD) and even then it's not 100% seals it for me. You will get matchups where Altaria doesn't get to do much at all, and at that point, your team can sorta just fall apart. I'll acknowledge that if you manage to do your thing and get Altaria going, it's really hard to stop, but that doesn't scream ban worthy or anything. I'm halfway able to get on board for people that think it's centralising, though, although as of now I still think there's unexplored potential especially on the ladder such as DD Fire Blast, DD Cotton Guard, special sets as a whole, and defensive ones (I'd slap it on a stall team in a heartbeat if it got Defog lol), so we'll see.

  • Mega Manectric
When this thing first dropped, I was very excited because I loved using it all the way back from XY UU beta. Then after looking at the other Pokemon in the tier, I thought it'd be shit. As it turns out, it's not some god tier threat, but it's definitely pretty good. It's not the absolute fastest Pokemon out there, but its Speed is sufficient, and Intimidate is honestly really nice, especially on VoltTurn teams that Mega Manectric tends to find itself on, solidifying itself in the pivoting game. The fact that it has really good synergy with both Scizor and Jirachi helps too. What I've noticed that's helping my usage of Mega Manectric, though, is that for some reason, a lot of people have stopped running proper Electric-type answers, i.e. no Ground-types. I'm guessing it's mainly due to the prevalence of Rotom-Wash right now, so when building, they simply slap on a Dragon-type like Hydreigon and call it a day. Obviously, this just makes it super easy for Mega Manectric teams to exploit.

  • Mega Latias
This was the second new Pokemon I built around, and man, I've been tweaking and messing around with so many possible variations, spreads, and moves, it's ridiculous. A common set that's been getting used seems to be Calm Mind, Stored Power, Surf, and Roost. With just max HP, it's able to take on so many Pokemon by sheer bulk. I've also tried other stuff on CM sets like BoltBeam and Psyshock + Hidden Power Fighting, and everything has been impressive in its own right, even though it's clear some are suboptimal. I get the feeling we'll lose it to OU next month, but as long as it's in the tier, it's very good, and there's still a ton of untapped potential in this Pokemon, similar to Mega Altaria, so definitely mess around with it when you get the chance. Don't underestimate this thing and just think it's another Latias. The bulk changes a lot.

Next up

  • Jirachi
This is the most fiercely talked about topic so far, so I'm sure most of the things in my mind would've already been said (mainly by hogg). Okay, let's get this out of the way: Scarf Jirachi is super overrated. Like hogg said, if you're losing to Scarf Jirachi so easily, fix your team first. As far as SpDef Jirachi goes, it does fit on some teams because it does well against threats like Mega Gardevoir, which I mentioned above being borderline broken even with Jirachi. I just don't want to see more teams with that set where they utilise it to try to check things it should never try to check, such as Mega Latias...Anyway, I'm not going to really elaborate on the RNG aspect of Jirachi because everyone knows what that's about, and whether you think it's a huge deal or not is up to you. Now, let's talk Z-Happy Hour. To put it simply, I do think this set is stupid, and the main dealbreaker for me here is its natural and added bulk. Even if you cast aside the possible RNG, which I acknowledge is a factor so don't go for my head here, the fact that its defenses are 100/100/100 and at +1, making it bulky enough to take most hits that I want to dish out against it, is a major pain to deal with, especially when you compile it with the possible coverage it can run. The increased Speed and offensive power do again support the whole cheesing through your supposed check argument but keep in mind that it also makes it so you have less chances to even get off a hit in the first place, flinch or not. I have lost to this set, but I never got majorly haxed.

Calm Mind Jirachi is something that I've seen scarcely, but it's a really cool set that I recommend trying out for however long this Pokemon sticks around. The coverage you can run varies, but most tend to go along the lines of Psyshock, Hidden Power Fire, and either Energy Ball or Thunder (with Electrium Z). While not outright the most broken set per se, it does play a part in my overall opinion on Jirachi in terms of its overall versatility. This set is able to set up against a lot of initial switch-ins to Jirachi and/or punish them for it. The issue with it is that it can't properly check what you usually slap a Steel-type on the team in this metagame to do, such as checking Mega Gardevoir and Altaria, but it's not that huge of a problem when so many teams now have two Steel-types.

As far as banning it goes, on one hand, you've got the unhealthy and borderline broken Pokemon, but then you've got the huge threats that Jirachi keeps in line. Normally, the idea of broken checks broken and a Pokemon being a necessary evil is something I'd never want to be introduced into tiering discussions, but considering the state of the meta at this point in time, I can see where this stance comes from in not wanting it to implode lol. That said, if Jirachi ends up getting banned or whatever, the next obvious step is to immediately suspect Mega Gardevoir. I'm leaning more towards the latter way of thinking, but I frankly wouldn't mind whichever way we approach this.

Just some general, non-new meta Pokemon stuff to comment on:

  • Dark-types
Offensive Dark-types are really fucking good right now, with Weavile and Hydreigon being the biggest offenders. I'm sure Weavile being a huge threat is no surprise considering people were already asking for a public suspect on it a while ago before the tier shifts. The most common Fairy-types right now tend to be Mega Gardevoir and Mega Altaria, so that's nice since both don't appreciate taking on Weavile at all. As for Hydreigon, the aforementioned Fairy-types also work in favour, with Mega Altaria having to Mega Evolve early to avoid being weak as hell to the three-headed dragon. Mega Gardevoir does have great Special Defense, but Dark Pulse is still going to do a good chunk. Specs Hydreigon, in particular, seems to work exceedingly well right now. Bulky Scizor going down in favour of offensive sets and Jirachi being a staple Steel-type also really help these Dark-types (aside from Scarf Rachi). I still do see some Primarina and Sylveon here and there, but their popularity has dropped down so much. Overall, I really think that as far as older Pokemon goes, Weavile is the one most worth looking at in terms of a potential suspect or ban.


  • Steel-types
Well, Pokemon like Scizor, Jirachi, Cobalion, Empoleon, Klefki, Magneton are just all nice to have right now. There isn't much to really highlight that I haven't already touched on when talking about other Pokemon. Dual Stee-type frameworks are super common, especially Scizor + Jirachi or Cobalion replacing one of them. While Mega Aerodactyl is still, in my opinion, the best Mega in the tier, Scizor is probably the best Pokemon in the tier right now, period. Cobalion has always been good, and that hasn't changed. In this meta full of threats, I like that Cobalion is bulky enough to usually take a hit and fast enough to dish out strong ones back with a Z-Move or set up Stealth Rock or Swords Dance. I hardly ever sweep with it now, but taking a hit and severely weakening an opposing Pokemon does wonders for my main wincon. I'm really surprised at the lack of Empoleon in this meta because it's still solid as well. I used to only run specially defensive on Defog sets, since they were better at dealing with Veil teams, but I'm a fan of Shuca / Chopple Flash Cannon offensive Defog at the moment. Make use of it more thanks.

Overall, I'm still trying to really grasp things properly since this meta revolves a lot around figuring out what Pokemon you can compromise in each matchup to determine your initial switch-ins, etc, especially when playing against Jirachi or Mega Altaria with their variety of sets, so regardless of what gets banned and what stays, I'm curious to see how this changes. This turned out way longer than I expected, and I officially need a better hobby.
 
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#56
it's tempting to ban jirachi because of z-happy hour, scarf flinch, and her potential versatility, but banning jirachi just opens the door for mgardevoir to become very overcentralizing to the meta game. if jirachi is gonna go then mgardevoir has to go with it, but I don't think that will happen this suspect. I would like to see how jirachi's role in the meta develops, I think scarf is already being figured out, but paraflinch, wish pivot and calm mind sets are underused and could be powerful. though her ability to run this many different sets might just speak to her ban-worthiness.

mgallade needs to go for sure, does anything in the tier resist it's stab coverage?

ban gallade, leave rachi and heracross (lol)
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
#58
Haven't posted in a long time, but have been playing consistently. My observations about Jirachi:

1) Scarf is the most common variant I run into.
2) Best version of Jirachi is the stall-breaker set.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Fire Punch

Addressing point 2, I personally think Jirachi is a bigger issue for more defensive-oriented teams. 101 Subs and high Flinch chance allows Jirachi to Toxic stall things to death, even against Pokemon that resist its main STAB i.e. Bulky Waters. It frustrates enemies pretty easily, so definitely try that while you're laddering right now.
 

Amaroq

Magic is everything.
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#59
I agree with most of what Eyan said, but I feel like it's worth sharing my own thoughts and observations as well. I'm gonna shamelessly rip off his format to structure my thoughts since I am a good person.

  • Mega Gallade
It didn't take me long to decide that this Pokemon is broken, mostly for the reasons specified. I'm not going to rehash a bunch of other posts that already said what I want to convey beyond a simple summary: It's stupidly fast, stupidly powerful, and just bulky enough to make revenge killing it a massive pain. I'm voting Ban and have no reservations whatsoever about doing so.

  • Mega Heracross
I have mixed feelings about Mega Heracross. On the one hand, its power is absurd and it never felt like dead weight when I used it. On the other hand, its speed really hinders it in a meta that's very offensive and packed full of Pokemon that can offensively check or revenge kill Mega Heracross. Fairy-types like Mega Gardevoir and Mega Altaria and their influence on the metagame make it hard for Mega Heracross to really shine without dedicated support. I don't think Mega Heracross is broken in the current metagame, but it could easily become problematic in a future meta lacking the factors that place so much pressure on it and will almost certainly need to be addressed after some of the more prominent problems with the current meta are solved. Mega Heracross reminds me of Buzzwole, in the sense that its impressive innate bulk, typing, and power allow it to serve as a soft check to a lot of prominent offensive threats, like Scizor, Weavile, and Mamoswine, although it lacks Buzzwole's raw bulk and access to recovery. Mega Heracross's ability to provide some defensive utility against some common offense/balance breakers definitely make it worth considering for a slot, but it competes with a significant number of other Mega Evolutions and it can be hard to justify using Mega Heracross on a team in the current meta. Overall, I think it's a good Pokemon, but not currently broken.

  • Mega Gardevoir
I've seen a lot of people complain about Mega Gardevoir, and I completely understand why. Fairy is the best type in the game and Mega Gardevoir has plenty of tools to abuse that: Pixilate + Hyper Voice, a secondary STAB that allows it to hit Poison-types, coverage options like Hidden Power Fire, Focus Blast, and Shadow Ball to break past Steel-types, and utility options like Calm Mind, Taunt, and Will-O-Wisp that allow it to break down bulkier teams. Mega Gardevoir's biggest asset is most likely its high base speed relative to the tier's other Fairy-types, since that allows it to abuse its incredible power to simply sweep rather than trade KOs and be forced out by many of the tier's fast physical Pokemon. While its speed tier is far from amazing, it's good enough to prevent Mega Gardevoir from being outpaced by Pokemon like Mamoswine and Nidoking that would ordinarily outspeed and pressure other Fairy-types. Eyan covered pretty much every other relevant point I would want to make.

  • Mega Altaria
Mega Altaria worried me a great deal when it originally dropped, but it's been somewhat underwhelming so far. It's not weak and it's not slow, but it's not that strong and it's not that fast either. It requires a lot of support to actually sweep, but it does function nicely as a bulky wincon with decent defensive utility thanks to its impressive innate bulk and incredible defensive typing. It's pretty versatile in that it can run a lot of sets (Dragon Dance + Earthquake, Dragon Dance + Refresh, specially offensive cleric, Cotton Guard, etc.) and has a lot of leeway with regards to customizing its EV spread, but the inability to outpace pretty much every Choice Scarf user in the tier and fast Mega Evolutions like Mega Beedrill and Mega Aerodactyl hinders it somewhat. Like Eyan said, pairing it with a Magneton makes using it much easier, but it's pretty dependent on team support and not incredibly difficult to check. I think this Pokemon could eventually become problematic in a metagame with a lower overall power level, but it seems okay for now.

  • Mega Manectric
I was pretty excited to use this Pokemon once it dropped, but I questioned its effectiveness in a meta where we're essentially spoiled for choice with regards to Mega Evolutions. It turned out to be a solid pivot that can check a lot of prominent threats without sacrificing either momentum or offensive presence. Its lack of a reliable boosting move means it isn't breaking through bulkier builds on its own, but it has teammates for that and can pose a considerable threat to offensive teams with minimal support. Eyan mentioned that Mega Manectric benefits from people running fewer Ground-types, which is nice for Mega Manectric for a couple of reasons: it can Volt Switch fairly freely and it has innate synergy with Pokemon like Scizor and Jirachi that can threaten Dragon-types.

  • Mega Latias
I feel that Mega Latias has an unhealthy effect on the metagame due to its amazing stat spread and versatility. The combination of bulk, speed, and power allow it to provide immense offensive and defensive utility to its team and it has an expansive movepool containing enough coverage and utility options to bypass pretty much any check or allow it to contribute without needing to threaten a sweep. I think it's too early to proclaim it broken, but it's definitely something I could see us needing to address in the future as people explore the options Mega Latias offers.

  • Jirachi
And now we reach the elephant in the room. Jirachi is broken. Z-Happy Hour is the most egregious problem, but I don't think any single facet of Jirachi makes it broken. Serene Grace is a stupid, uncompetitive ability that exists only to introduce additional RNG into what is ostensibly a test of skill, but it isn't broken in and of itself, even when a Pokemon has the stats and movepool to abuse it. Jirachi's innate bulk and defensive typing aren't broken on its own, nor are its decent offensive stats and expansive movepool. However, the capacity to abuse Serene Grace coupled with excellent bulk, good defensive typing, the ability to boost multiple stats, coverage options that let it bypass many of its potential checks, and utility options that allow it to support its team makes the entire package unhealthy for UU. As Eyan said, some people view Jirachi as a necessary evil that keeps other Pokemon in check. I don't think that "necessary evil" and "broken checking broken" are ever arguments that should enter into UU tiering. If removing Jirachi results in something else becoming broken, we should ban the Pokemon that becomes broken.

  • Weavile
I've seen a lot of complaints about Weavile, especially recently. While I stand by the original decision to unban it (in a significantly different meta that was considerably less friendly to it), I believe that current conditions make addressing Weavile something worth serious consideration. When I spoke to Pearl earlier, he mentioned the value and power of Pursuit trapping in this metagame, Weavile's strength as a Pursuit user, and that other Pursuit users have more reliable counterplay. The example Pearl gave is as followed, paraphrased from Discord messages:

Scizor can easily trap Bronzong, but struggles to trap Hidden Power Fire Latias, whereas Weavile can trap most of the relevant targets with limited risk.

The Snake Tour match between Pearl and HT earlier today illustrates how powerful Weavile's ability to threaten Pursuit is. HT lost his Gardevoir because he was forced to respect the possibility of Pursuit, which gave Pearl considerably more breathing room. Weavile is held back to some degree by its 4MSS, but its movepool provides it with the tools to compensate for that weakness and plenty of common Pokemon can take advantage of its checks.

  • Swampert
Swampert isn't broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive in any way, but I've enjoyed using it in the current meta. It's nice as a reliable answer to any Mega Manectric not running Hidden Power Grass and still does all of the other things Swampert has traditionally done. I've been running Toxic in the fourth slot recently, and it's been really nice to cripple the Dragon-types running around and the omnipresent Rotom-W. Swampert's utility slot has been pretty flexible for a long time, and Toxic is a nice option to take advantage of current meta trends. It also allows Swampert to help break down bulkier teams.

  • Klefki
Specially Defensive Klefki is currently a great check to a whole lot of stuff. It finds plenty of opportunities to set up Spikes, can switch in on common Pokemon like Gardevoir and Latias, and can check a multitude of dangerous threats with the appropriate status move. Klefki's many support options enable it to be useful in many different team compositions. The lack of reliable recovery is kind of an issue, but Klefki doesn't necessarily need to tank a ton of hits in every game. Use it strategically.

I'm honestly not as fond of this meta as I am of the previous meta (without Aurora Veil), but I think it has a lot of potential once certain outliers are dealt with. I think that once some of the egregious problems are dealt with, the meta will revolve less around hoping the opponent doesn't have a particular threat or set and more around skillful use of tools both old and new, so I'm very interested in seeing how the meta evolves.
 
#60
We've had lots of new toys to try out these past couple of weeks, but honestly I feel most of them have been fine. Altaria-Mega, Latias-Mega (for now), Nihilego, Rotom-Wash and Smeargle in particular seem to be fine and logical additions to UU when you consider the amount of top tier threats OU gained this generation. I suspect Ampharos-Mega to drop to RU in no time, too. Other than that I'll address the two 'mons that are being tested first.

Gallade-Mega
Ban. Ban this right now. My Scarf Draco Meteors do not kill it, it gets Knock Off to complement its STAB-attacks and it's absurdly fast for something this powerful. I've only tried the SD, CC, Zen Headbutt and Knock Off set myself, but after using (and facing) that set on the ladder I'm convinced this 'mon is too strong for UU.

Heracross-Mega
Not as clear cut as Gallade-Mega, but still too strong for my liking. Have you guys noticed how bulky this thing is? For example: 252 Atk Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heracross-Mega: 300-354 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Well shit. :c I actually didn't see it being used much on the ladder at all (I even faced more regular Heracross!), but after using a Substitute set, Swords Dance set and a Trick Room team (shout-outs Hikari) with this thing I'm leaning towards banning it more and more. It's very very strong and has the coverage to blow past pretty much every defensive counter available to us. Unlike other threats that share this trait, however, it's genuinely tricky to OHKO in return, as well as it having a lot more opportunities to switch into play.

The following two 'mons aren't being tested (at the moment), but they are shaping the metagame and have been talked about a bunch in this thread as it is, too.

Gardevoir-Mega
Her. She's obviously one of the stronger Megas to drop to UU and without doubt a top-tier threat. For now though, I find her to be manageable. Having said that, the main fear in UU right now seems to be the "broken checking broken" dynamic, which in Gardevoir-Mega's case refers to Jirachi. Gardevoir-Mega has a very strong STAB-attack in Hyper Voice, while Psyshock and Focus Blast/Hidden Power Fire round out its coverage handily. Taunt, Will-O-Wisp and Substitute are excellent moves it uses to great effect, too. It is much easier to control than Gallade-Mega is, though. It's slower and doesn't get Nasty Plot in comparison to Gallade-Mega's Swords Dance. Gardevoir-Mega's coverage move isn't as efficient at breaking past its checks as Gallade-Mega's Knock Off, and its weakness to Steel-types becomes extra crippling when you take Scizor's (and its Bullet Punch's) dominance into consideration. In closing, I think Gardevoir-Mega is very good, but not (yet) broken. However...

Jirachi
Oh. My. God. I hate this thing so much. I've been overseeing UU Majors these past two weeks and the amount of games ending with a Jirachi on my screen having boosted all of its stats is quite frankly obscene. Its Happy Hour set is stupidly broken and not just because of Jirachi's coverage, resistances, bulk or anything logical that, but mostly because no matter which (would be) counter escapes the clutches of its coverage, it still has to overcome Serene Grace boosted Iron Heads. I've seen Mantine, Magneton, Suicune and many more resistances like them get flinched down effortlessly by this stupid Jirachi set. Specially defensive, Stealth Rock, lure and Choice Scarf sets are all great as well, as if it even needed that. Keeping Gardevoir-Mega in check should not be an argument to let this menace roam the UU tier unscathed. Let's please address this next. :c
 
#61
Hello all, I'm going to chime in to give my thoughts on the suspected pokemon. I'll give my thoughts on the other new pokemon another time.

Gallade-Mega
Gallade is definitely the most broken of the recent drops. It has great coverage to threaten all of the tier with an above average speed stat. Typically that would be quite doable for UU to handle but Gallade's bulk is what sets it apart from other setup sweepers. This pokemon is oddly difficult to revenge kill, and it usually takes more than one pokemon to take it out. Ban it etc.

Heracross-Mega
Similarly to Gallade, this pokemon is really hard to revenge kill. Although very slow, Heracross forces a lot of switches and, with good prediction, can KO or 2HKO any possible switch in. Unlike Gallade, Heracross does have its issues because Megas like Garde/Manectric/Altaria are being used a ton, and all of which threaten I am on the fence with Heracross because although it does shut down mostly all defensive teams, and can nab a kill anytime its in verses a Weavile/Swampert/etc, it is still pressured quite a bit with other megas. As of now I am voting Ban.
 
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#62
I guess ill say my thoughts mega hercross is hard to switchin on without getting chiped down. It beats most of uu's good walls unaware mons etc. Its wallbreaking abilities invalidate some playstyles and pressure others. So basically it needs a ban.
Mega gallade I don't have much experience with so ill refrain from commenting on its ban or no ban
 

Sacri'

Itching for a fight
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#63
I yet again feel like there's nothing left to say but here are my thoughts on the suspected pokemons.

As soon as it dropped I knew Gallade-Mega would be extremely powerful but it turned out to be even worse to deal with in practice. It doesn't have any sort of reliable answer, the few things that can revenge kill it are obviously entirely unable to switch into it and SD makes it ridiculously powerful. Knock Off means bulky psychics and ghost types are entirely unable to take it on thus meaning Gallade doesn't have any reliable counterplays in the tier. It also happens to have quite a good bulk on the special side which allows it to get many opportunities to come in throughout the game. I'll vote to ban it.

Heracross-Mega isnt as annoying as Gallade due to it's averags peed but that aside, it is also incredibly threatening. The lack of speed is easily made up by it's great bulk which allows it to live a ridiculous amont of hits with ease. It is obviously extremely powerful and completely invalidates bulkier teams while still being able to claim a few kills vs BO/Offense teams if it's used correctly. I don't have any doubt Heracross should be banned as well.
 
#64
i think most of the megas that droped are pretty unhealthy as stated by some people earlier in this thread the main ones being mega latias, mega garde, mega hera, mega gallade, and to an extent mega altaria can be troublesome as well. from the versatility of mega latias to the raw wallbreaking power of mega garde, hera, and gallade all these megas are unhealthy at least in my eyes and i will vote ban for all of them if i get reqs. That being said i cant predict the future but i doubt some of these recent uu drops will stay.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
#65
Hey!

This is my first time playing SM UU!! So all of my comments are going to be strictly as a result from my experience from the suspect ladder and the one team I used. I apologize in advance if my understanding of the metagame is flawed since I've only just begun, but I feel obligated to share my thoughts as someone who has gained requirements and will be voting (this way, y'all can educate me!).

-.-.-

Mega Gallade is absolutely broken. I think that a lot of folk here have sportsmanship of the kind, because I didn't see too many Mega Gallade's on the ladder, but I in no way feel like this is because Gallade isn't overpowered or something. Gallade, after a SD boost and the right coverage move, has literally no counters in this tier -- and on top of that, it's fat as shit. Another thing that makes this broken is its seemingly useless ability in Inner Focus allows it to escape the monster that is Z Happy Hour / Scarf Jirachi in the sense that they cannot achieve a flinch whatsoever, seeing as Jirachi is use a lot to punish offensive builds and Gallade fits well on them. Gallade also makes very good use of both webs and potential Shadow Sneak, so even if you can outspeed its god speed tier of 110, you're still at a disadvantage when you're facing Gallade. Overall I will be voting to ban this threat swiftly unless someone can provide sufficient reasoning for otherwise.


This is really not a healthy component to this tier IMO. Z Happy Hour is really practicailly impossible to stop at lategame, and there isn't much intimidate in this tier like there is in OU to keep this thing from harassing everything in its path. It has a huge movepool that can be tailored to hit virtually whatever you want it to and your opponent is forced to sac things to scout its set + lose to flinch anyway. Scarf isn't much healthier either -- it has great bulk, great movepool, plenty of switch in opportunities access to rocks, uturn, it's just really versatile. I wouldn't ban it on the grounds of being broken per-say, but it's a really uncompetitive IMO as there is little response to a Z Happy Hour Jirachi at lategame, and setting up the wincondition for Z Jirachi takes very minimal effort on the player's part. Jirachi gets opportunities to set up on half the tier with its stellar bulk, resistances, and ability to abuse the choiced nature of this metagame.


For the record: I played stall for my entire run for Requirements (more on that later) and I have to say that Mega Heracross was absolute ass. I didn't lose to M-Hera nearly as much as I should have, and I was playing the playstyle it is typically most useful against. It's mediocre speed & moveslot syndrome really keep it from being a top-tier threat as many Pokemon can take advantage of it. Many teams in this tier are stockpiled with threats that either outspeed this thing (Manectric, JIrachi, Infernape, Hydregion, Mamoswine, Gardevoir, Latias) or just don't care about it (Toxic Gliscor, Mega Altaria, etc. etc.). This Pokemon requires a lot of support to function properly and even then why use Heracross to stallbreak when Gard/Altaria/Gallade/etc. are so much better, not to mention Guts Flame Orb Heracross is arguably a better stallbreaker anyway & faster to boot.


On one hand, this Pokemon is really hard to switch into and virtually doesn't have counters. On the other hand -- Jirachi and Klefki are very good at sponging hits from this, and the more offensive-based teams are simply fast and strong enouhg and play fast enough to take on Gardevoir. I think it'll take some time to see if this thing is broken (namely, when Gallade is banned, etc.) to truly judge its impact on the UU metagame.


This thing is honestly very good and very underappreciated in this tier. The Stored Power set can be very powerful when used with Reflect Type to combat those pesky Scizors, while the regular Calm Mind set / BoltBeam sets are very good on their respective teams. Sadly, Latias faces a lot of issues in a metagame where Scizor and Weavile are often paired together & with the metagame surgance of Jirachi + Klefki, but I still feel like its potential has yet to truly be unlocked.


I feel like this metagame has so much rampant in it right now it almost feels chaotic. Z- Jirachi in particular feels very unfair to play against as it can run virtually any 2 moves alongside Iron HEad to blow away whatever would-be counter to it, and this thing will only get worse when we ban Inner Focus Mega Gallade which is currently the best answer to this cancRous strat, with Intimidate Krook following right behind it. Gardevoir and Gallade are both super difficult to switch into -- Gardevoir with Healing Wish support or Sticky Web support in particular can be a real hastle. Altaria & Latias both exceptionally good at taking games right from under your nose -- it's super hard to pinpoint any one Pokemon that's causing all the aids, but aids are happening nonetheless.
 
#69
My input about Jirachi.

Honestly at first I thought Happy-hour Jirachi was broken in this tier but as it turns out due to its Z nature, as long as you have an appropriate revenge killer/scarf user, a wall roar, one intimidate mon (which, surprisingly enough, UU has now the highest amount of viable users and all of them resist 1 or 2 of his coverage and are neutral to the rest) or a prankster T-Wave/Sticky Web up, it is honestly very difficult for Jirachi to actually wipe a team or to get more than one kill from his setup even with his bulk. I personally went from his happy hour set to the special defensive ones for that reason, it's honestly a waste of Z. Luck wise I agree that it is cancerous but we are talking about a tier where togekiss exists. I would find it hypocritical if all of a sudden the luck factor of serene grace became an issue. I would strangely add that Klefki is surprisingly much more viable in a lot of area, the one thing that makes Jirachi a tad more popular is his access to u-turn for volt/turn teams and Iron head as a type coverage against fairies. I honestly wouldn't touch it unless there's an actual need to weaken volt/turn.

On a side note if the tier remain as such (minus gallade) I hope there will be re-suspecting of some previously banned mons like Conkeldurr because the tier overall strength went up by a lot.
 
#71
My input about Jirachi.

Honestly at first I thought Happy-hour Jirachi was broken in this tier but as it turns out due to its Z nature, as long as you have an appropriate revenge killer/scarf user, a wall roar, one intimidate mon (which, surprisingly enough, UU has now the highest amount of viable users and all of them resist 1 or 2 of his coverage and are neutral to the rest) or a prankster T-Wave/Sticky Web up, it is honestly very difficult for Jirachi to actually wipe a team or to get more than one kill from his setup even with his bulk. I personally went from his happy hour set to the special defensive ones for that reason, it's honestly a waste of Z. Luck wise I agree that it is cancerous but we are talking about a tier where togekiss exists. I would find it hypocritical if all of a sudden the luck factor of serene grace became an issue. I would strangely add that Klefki is surprisingly much more viable in a lot of area, the one thing that makes Jirachi a tad more popular is his access to u-turn for volt/turn teams and Iron head as a type coverage against fairies. I honestly wouldn't touch it unless there's an actual need to weaken volt/turn.


Your post brings up a good point in that the counterplay to Jirachi hasn't really been discussed - but I would posit that this has occured because it has little counterplay and certainly less than what your post implies.

For scarfers and revenge killers vs Z Jirachi (assuming only Iron Head, Energy Ball and Fire Punch which is extremely generous already considering it can run far more moves)

Scarf Latias obviously fails miserably, Scarf Chandelure fails most of the time even at 100% because it's slower and not strong enough to OHKO (all of the time with SR up), Scarf Darmanitan fails with one flinch and SR, Scarf Hydreigon gets 2HKO and never OHKOs back assuming it breaks out the flinch, Scarf Krookodile is the same.

Only Scarfer is Scarf Infernape can reliably revenge kill this one set.

Other traditional forms of revenge killing fail miserably as Weavile and Mamoswine die to Iron Head and barely damage with priority, Scizor dies to Fire Punch, Entei does well but not reliably because flinches. Mega Aerodactyl also fails obviously.

Walls that can phaze via Roar or WW don't really work when Jirachi is the last Pokémon, which is often the case in the late game we are talking about. True Mega Aggron gives major problems but it's hardly too tiered and still gets chipped, Hippowdown takes too much from Energy Ball and doesn't risk Iron Head so it risks both just instantly losing via 1-2 flinches depending on the EVs or just getting predicted with Energy Ball.

There aren't really many other walls that
phaze.

Intimidate users are surprisingly great versus Jirachi I agree with you but Arcanine is pretty much unviable otherwise (D ranked), Krookodile still loses bar CB moves and even then it can get flinched and Mega Manectric doesn't have instant access to Intimidate and can still lose as Energy Ball does a nice chunk.

I guess Klefki can cripple but it does that to most Pokémon, even those that are clearly broken (Gallade) and unlike even Gallade it still loses one on one.

Sticky Web as a way to counter Jirachi is a strange claim to make...nobody really uses Sticky Web for that purpose but I agree it does cripple Jirachi. Still, it's not relevant nor reliable nor crippling enough to sufficiently balance Jirachi.
 
#72
aside from jirachi being borked, i must say that the UU meta is the funnest its been in a while! whether its because of the fresh drops, or because i haven't had a chance to play in like 2 weeks, or just the varieties of offense that can still consistently win if you play well, (or the absence of stall on the ladder) the meta rn is pretty damn fun lol

in terms of jirachi tho, is there a required period of time between suspects or can we suspect it immediately after the current one?
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
UU Leader
#73
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-uu-stage-4-voting.3615600/#post-7517194

In a rare unanimous decision, 100% of voters (40/40) have agreed to keep Gallade-Mega BL.

In a slightly less united vote, 70% of voters (28/40) have also voted to keep Heracross-Mega BL.

Therefore, both Heracross-Mega and Gallade-Mega will remain banned from the UnderUsed tier. Thanks to all who participated in this suspect and its discussion!

Tagging The Immortal and Eyan to close the suspect ladder.
 
#74
I would like something done about jirachi very soon. Im tired of it ruining games by putting in too much work, whether it be sweeping or sponging hits repeately with wish / uturn / protect. I find it ridiculous that we have a pokemon that can:
1. Run a set that sweeps any team after checks are worn down
2. Run a set that sponges a good amount of the meta by switching in to moves that dont 2hk0, and u-turning out / healing itself with wish.
Basically jirachi is this meta's best sweeper and one the top sponges lumped all in to one pokemon, clearly a problem.
 
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