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Metagame np: Stage 6 - The Boys Are Back
- Thread starter Raseri
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I think magneton should be considered for a suspect...
It beats so many things in the tier 1v1 and has voltswitch making it hard to gain momentum from the opponent brining it in.
Lets be real. Magneton can very easily run
Choice Scarf: sturdy/magnet pull
Eviolite: analytic/magnet pull
Choic Specs: analytic/sturdy
And be extremely effective. It can make maximum use of voltswitch considering it isn't even weak to hazards. Toxic spikes and stealth rock are resisted. Not only that but dual stabs and hp grass/hp fire is amazing coverage.
I would say it has a huge negative impact on the tier moreso then typhlosion.
It beats so many things in the tier 1v1 and has voltswitch making it hard to gain momentum from the opponent brining it in.
Lets be real. Magneton can very easily run
Choice Scarf: sturdy/magnet pull
Eviolite: analytic/magnet pull
Choic Specs: analytic/sturdy
And be extremely effective. It can make maximum use of voltswitch considering it isn't even weak to hazards. Toxic spikes and stealth rock are resisted. Not only that but dual stabs and hp grass/hp fire is amazing coverage.
I would say it has a huge negative impact on the tier moreso then typhlosion.
Well I'm gonna add my thoughts on magneton:
right now team building is a real bitch, a lot more so than typhlosion for the whole thought of "what if it's this set". Magneton when playing against it is actually in reality really easy to deal with and when i've used it myself it's barely had use for the fact people have carried counters for it making it extremely ineffective. So the only potential thoughts here would be theorymon'ing every set it has and say it can do all of these things, however it can't actually do them all at once and you'll only be fighting 1 set in a game, which 95% of the time (from experience) has been ineffective since there are a lot of checks that outspeed its specs / eviolite sets and scarf is actually really weak :x
I would say I wouldn't write a suspect off the cards, but i think right now is a definite no-no, especially since it's been 4 days and we haven't even settled into a meta.
right now team building is a real bitch, a lot more so than typhlosion for the whole thought of "what if it's this set". Magneton when playing against it is actually in reality really easy to deal with and when i've used it myself it's barely had use for the fact people have carried counters for it making it extremely ineffective. So the only potential thoughts here would be theorymon'ing every set it has and say it can do all of these things, however it can't actually do them all at once and you'll only be fighting 1 set in a game, which 95% of the time (from experience) has been ineffective since there are a lot of checks that outspeed its specs / eviolite sets and scarf is actually really weak :x
I would say I wouldn't write a suspect off the cards, but i think right now is a definite no-no, especially since it's been 4 days and we haven't even settled into a meta.
Ok so I have yet to post my thoughts on the new drops as I wanted to test them a bit / find what checks them before I offer up my opinion.
First off, we have the lovable and adorable Fletchinder. This burd is jam-packed with tons of support options such as Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, U-turn, and even Tailwind (+1 priority thanks to Gale Wings). While the SD set is gonna be overwhelmingly common, I like the bulky Eviolite set that Disjunction provided here. Both look like solid options for Fletch and while I do see this thing as a major threat, it is easily handled by Rock-types and faster priority (Liepard's Sucker Punch, Sneasel's Ice Shard) and Stealth Rock really cripples it, taking 50% of its life. It does have reliable recovery in Roost, but the slightest move, even resisted, can take a lot of its health.
Magneton (or as it is more commonly known "Magnets") is a big threat in NU. While it can run a multitude of sets (Choice Specs w/ Analytic / Magnet Pull, Choice Scarf w/ Magnet Pull / Sturdy, Eviolite with Magnet Pull / Analytic) it hasn't been a big threat people have made it out to be. I say on paper this thing looks like a threat, but for right now it seems fine (although I can easily see a suspect down the line but like Teddeh said, it hasn't even been a week with the new meta, lol).
Kabutops is probably the most fun drop I had the pleasuring of playing around with. It has made rain even more viable and been a great spinner. Overall, this mon I can see being towards the top tier threat, although it still has trouble spinning against Gourgeist and it dies to any super effective attack with its below average bulk.
MOLD BREAKER ROCKS FK DEM XATUS Seriously I do not see this thing being a major contender as mono Bug typing is not that great offensively or defensively, but it does have access to cool things like Moxie and Mold Breaker as well as a boosting move in Swords Dance. Arguably, Sawk does a better job wallbreaking while SD Samurott has a better typing and bulk to set up.
First off, we have the lovable and adorable Fletchinder. This burd is jam-packed with tons of support options such as Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, U-turn, and even Tailwind (+1 priority thanks to Gale Wings). While the SD set is gonna be overwhelmingly common, I like the bulky Eviolite set that Disjunction provided here. Both look like solid options for Fletch and while I do see this thing as a major threat, it is easily handled by Rock-types and faster priority (Liepard's Sucker Punch, Sneasel's Ice Shard) and Stealth Rock really cripples it, taking 50% of its life. It does have reliable recovery in Roost, but the slightest move, even resisted, can take a lot of its health.
Magneton (or as it is more commonly known "Magnets") is a big threat in NU. While it can run a multitude of sets (Choice Specs w/ Analytic / Magnet Pull, Choice Scarf w/ Magnet Pull / Sturdy, Eviolite with Magnet Pull / Analytic) it hasn't been a big threat people have made it out to be. I say on paper this thing looks like a threat, but for right now it seems fine (although I can easily see a suspect down the line but like Teddeh said, it hasn't even been a week with the new meta, lol).
Kabutops is probably the most fun drop I had the pleasuring of playing around with. It has made rain even more viable and been a great spinner. Overall, this mon I can see being towards the top tier threat, although it still has trouble spinning against Gourgeist and it dies to any super effective attack with its below average bulk.
The niche that Pinsir has over every other NU Pokemon is that it can boost on forced switches with Swords Dance or just by attacking thanks to Moxie. It's kind of like Serperior in that way because it doesn't ever have to spend a turn boosting. I agree with the general sentiment that Pinsir isn't a great Pokemon, but it's definitely better than people are giving it credit for. The biggest problems I have with Pinsir is that its only STAB is Bug and that it's too slow to run a second coverage move, which pretty much forces you into running X-Scissor, Swords Dance, and Quick Attack. Earthquake is probably the best coverage move because it's the only move Pinsir has that can even touch Garbodor, but that leaves you unable to do anything to most Flying-types. Still, once you weaken problem Pokemon for Pinsir, it's really easy for it to snowball out of control.
Can anyone explain to me why Magneton is considered to be such a threat? I am quite new to competetive battling and started just before Typhlosion and Camerupt got banned, so I guess I came into the scene at a point where teambuilding was focussed around being able to check/counter centralizing threats. Now with the recent drops, I have built 2-3 teams a day just to get the hang of what works and what doesn't, always trying to have answers for Magneton and Fletchinder. And to be quite frank, it seems easier to build around Magneton/Fletch than against Typh/Camerupt. While I recognize Fletchinder as a (albeit very managable) threat, Magneton just doesn't seem that bad. I realize he has a lot of sets and it's partly a guessing game, but he's really slow and weak to a bunch of stuff. He feels strong, but not as overwhelmingly strong as having to take Specs Eruptions to the face. I'm not even saying he is not as good, just that I personally don't really see why. Can someone enlighten me?
Look at magnetons stats and abilities, then look to see the obscure electric/steel resists in the nu/pu metagame. Nu lost seismitoad, which countered most of magneton and magneton resists, which another plus why its so good. Also NU is a tier of water/bird/psychic spam, and magneton destroys 2 of those typings while resisting another.
Spoiler:magneton walls non fire blast fletchinder
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lol well i think its considered a threat because of the multitude of sets it can run effectively and most of its threats get bopped by the specs analytic set. But in reality Once u figure out its set its p easy to handle and specs/evo get Bopped by faster pokes and The scarf set is underwhelming on power
Alright, that makes sense. I do realize it is a threat to be reckoned with, I just didn't completely understand why people were calling for S rank or a suspect. If you compare it to Mesprit, an S Ranked Pokemon, it seems much more linear. Yeah, it has multiple sets, but it is always going to run T-Bolt and Flash Cannon as it's strongest attacking moves, while Mesprit has a plethora of sets it can run, from Stealth rock to physical and special scarf or Life Orb with stuff like CM or Healing Wish. It's also way better in stats. Magneton to me feels more comparable to Samurott, which I guess also has the benefit of being able to run special and physical sets, but doesn't resist nearly as much as Magneton and also deals a little bit less if the Magneton is choiced I guess.
Again, I am not trying to say it is not a really good mon, because obviously it is, I'm just trying to get a deeper understanding about the outrage its drop caused.
Mesprit is good mostly because of the many sets it can run effectively. That's it's thing... it brings it to S rank.
Magneton on the other hand has amazing typing, multiple viable sets, resists hazards, THREE amazing abilities, and can come in on so many mons and not allow any viable counters.
Stab volt switching for momentum is huge in this metagame.
So far people seem to have adjusted to magneton by making sure nothing on thier team is forced out by it AND they spam small switchins like lanturn. The impact it has on the meta is somewhat ridiculous which is why I think it shouldn't be here.
Relaxed Dedenne
I COULD BE BANNED!
Helio ran grass knot btw
1. Well, it pretty much is. (You are also forgetting the lack of many other mons, notably the BL3 mons, Virizion, mons like Sceptile and Altaria that got megas in ORAS, Shiftry, Venomoth, and so many others)
2. This should do. (Look at the second post to be specific)
/me is .mad
now to start off this complete shitstorm that is going to end up being my post i'd like to say something. Some of you may find this post to be me just being mad after my loss today and trying to get something banned. If you think this, I say good on you, you're right, something did make me angry today and I plan on doing something about it. If you think that my post is just gonna be super bias and just me complaining then go ahead and stop reading and save yourself from the wall of text that is about to come forth.
For anyone that doesn't already know i'm talking about Suspecting SmashPass.
Now the idea of suspecting SmashPass is by no means a new subject. It's been brought up before and the idea never really gained any traction, mainly I believe because the people that brought it up weren't bringing it up for the right reasons. The users that brought it up before talked about how outright broken SmashPass was, when in reality that isn't the case at all. SmashPass has its counters and ways to beat it, the real reason that smashpass should be at least suspected is due to how stupidly uncompetitve and matchup-based it is. The fact is that if you dont have Haze, or a phasing move, you are put at such a severe disadvantage right from team preview, so much so that 9 times out of 10 the smashpass player wins. While there is some room for the non-smashpasser to play around, SmashPass puts the opposing player at such a large initial disadvantage that the opposing player must be absolutely perfect, and even then if the SmashPass player knows what they are doing it won't matter anyways. SmashPass has also been losing a lot of its counters since the end of XY. Dragalge and Qwilfish leaving, Magneton joining the tier and the gain of Sucker Punch into Huntail are all factors that contribute to SmashPass getting better since the end of XY. With Qwil and Drag gone, the only viable haze users i can think of as of now are Cryogonal and Mantine, the former dies to Huntail Waterfall and the latter is declining in usage since the ban of Typhlosion and Mantine in favour of Pelipper which has reliable recovery as well as acts as a better check to fighting types. Adding Sucker Punch to Huntail was a huge boost as it allows Huntail to get by former checks like Rotom and other fast choice scarfers. Magneton's drop is another great advantage because it is now one of the best recipients to SmashPass due to it's great bulk, power, and Dual STAB Coverage. It also synergizes extremely well with Xatu which is the ideal recipient. Now you may be thinking that the Fletchinder drop is really anti-SmashPass because it can't be outsped and can revenge things with priority Acrobatics. Well thats not really the case because Fletchinder can't beat common SmashPass recipients like Kangaskhan, Magneton and Xatu 1v1 and it cant even come in on Huntail without risking taking a Waterfall while doing under half unboosted to 252/0 Huntail without screens. Smashpass also has all the great recipients that call NU their home like Magneton, Kangaskhan, Samurott, Torterra, Xatu etc.
Even with all this stuff that has made SmashPass even better since ORAS, I still believe that its not its not broken in the truest sense of the word. I believe that the reason SmashPass should be suspected is due to it's intensely uncompetitive nature and how extremely matchup-based it makes this game. Thanks to atomicllamas for finding a thread that talks about uncompetitiveness in general here. I find that when I think about SmashPass, I believe that it can be considered "uncompetitive" is because it takes control of how the game is played and the game's events from the moment that you lay eyes on your opponent's team. The game goes from, "how do I set up my win condition and wear down my opponent's team to where I can win" to "how do I prevent Huntail from passing". In games against teams that lack SmashPass counters, it forces the opposing player to make really risky and aggressive plays, just to keep from straight losing to it. The fact that running this specific playstyle can put you at such a large advantage that if forces you to play a certain way just screams uncompetitive to me.
I think that the main reason SmashPass has been shot down for suspect is because of how truly uncommon it is. I find it astounding that the ladder isn't infested with SmashPass teams due to how incredibly easy it is to get wins with. I feel that this is more of a product of the NU community and how we've already sort of "tabooed" it. I just implore everyone to remember that usage does not equal viability. Just because people aren't using SmashPass frequently, doesn't mean that it's unhealthy for the tier when it is being used. This is similar in a sense, to the other former QuickPass abuser in NU: Combusken (although at a much larger scale) in the sense that CombuskenPass was not very common at all early on in NU Alpha. Even after people found out about Combusken and how cancerous it really was, it wasn't really as commonplace as one would expect to find for such an unfair, matchup based strategy. I'm going to go a little off the wall here and make an irl comparison that I believe might hold some weight here. Pretty much everyone on this site lives in a 1st or 2nd world country and lives a relatively comfortable lifestyle compared to how the world is in some countries. We are lucky enough to not be concerned with issues like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger, however we do acknowledge their existence in our world. Now in no way, am I comparing how incredibly awful stuff like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger to an uncompetitive strategy in Pokemon, the point i'm simply trying to make is that because these things don't affect us in our everyday lives, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. People forget about things that they aren't exposed to, it's the nature of how things go. Friends grow apart if they don't see each other a lot. Why do you think subjects in school are so hard after each grade even though people are in school for 10 months of the year? Because we take the summer and aren't exposed to school work which in turn, makes it so hard to remember what the hell we learned last year. I propose that we suspect SmashPass now in order to finally resolve this once and for all instead of letting it sit and fester for longer than it needs to.
I'm gonna end this long ass post by reminding people that we agreed earlier as a tier to more open suspect testing in order to try and keep the tier as fun and as competitive as possible. By continuing to sit back and not even consider a suspect to SmashPass, we are doing the exact opposite of that. If the community really doesn't see SmashPass as uncompetitive then it's done and over with, at least we don't have to keep bringing it up every couple months until someone else realizes how dumb this strategy is. haha what even are AP exams fuck that i have to write an essay about pokemon.
/me is .lessmad and .stillbad
tl;dr: SmashPass is too uncompetitive and too matchup based to be healthy for the tier. It has gotten better since the beginning of ORAS and just because it's uncommon doesn't mean that it doesn't still exist. Suspect it pl0x
now to start off this complete shitstorm that is going to end up being my post i'd like to say something. Some of you may find this post to be me just being mad after my loss today and trying to get something banned. If you think this, I say good on you, you're right, something did make me angry today and I plan on doing something about it. If you think that my post is just gonna be super bias and just me complaining then go ahead and stop reading and save yourself from the wall of text that is about to come forth.
For anyone that doesn't already know i'm talking about Suspecting SmashPass.
Now the idea of suspecting SmashPass is by no means a new subject. It's been brought up before and the idea never really gained any traction, mainly I believe because the people that brought it up weren't bringing it up for the right reasons. The users that brought it up before talked about how outright broken SmashPass was, when in reality that isn't the case at all. SmashPass has its counters and ways to beat it, the real reason that smashpass should be at least suspected is due to how stupidly uncompetitve and matchup-based it is. The fact is that if you dont have Haze, or a phasing move, you are put at such a severe disadvantage right from team preview, so much so that 9 times out of 10 the smashpass player wins. While there is some room for the non-smashpasser to play around, SmashPass puts the opposing player at such a large initial disadvantage that the opposing player must be absolutely perfect, and even then if the SmashPass player knows what they are doing it won't matter anyways. SmashPass has also been losing a lot of its counters since the end of XY. Dragalge and Qwilfish leaving, Magneton joining the tier and the gain of Sucker Punch into Huntail are all factors that contribute to SmashPass getting better since the end of XY. With Qwil and Drag gone, the only viable haze users i can think of as of now are Cryogonal and Mantine, the former dies to Huntail Waterfall and the latter is declining in usage since the ban of Typhlosion and Mantine in favour of Pelipper which has reliable recovery as well as acts as a better check to fighting types. Adding Sucker Punch to Huntail was a huge boost as it allows Huntail to get by former checks like Rotom and other fast choice scarfers. Magneton's drop is another great advantage because it is now one of the best recipients to SmashPass due to it's great bulk, power, and Dual STAB Coverage. It also synergizes extremely well with Xatu which is the ideal recipient. Now you may be thinking that the Fletchinder drop is really anti-SmashPass because it can't be outsped and can revenge things with priority Acrobatics. Well thats not really the case because Fletchinder can't beat common SmashPass recipients like Kangaskhan, Magneton and Xatu 1v1 and it cant even come in on Huntail without risking taking a Waterfall while doing under half unboosted to 252/0 Huntail without screens. Smashpass also has all the great recipients that call NU their home like Magneton, Kangaskhan, Samurott, Torterra, Xatu etc.
Even with all this stuff that has made SmashPass even better since ORAS, I still believe that its not its not broken in the truest sense of the word. I believe that the reason SmashPass should be suspected is due to it's intensely uncompetitive nature and how extremely matchup-based it makes this game. Thanks to atomicllamas for finding a thread that talks about uncompetitiveness in general here. I find that when I think about SmashPass, I believe that it can be considered "uncompetitive" is because it takes control of how the game is played and the game's events from the moment that you lay eyes on your opponent's team. The game goes from, "how do I set up my win condition and wear down my opponent's team to where I can win" to "how do I prevent Huntail from passing". In games against teams that lack SmashPass counters, it forces the opposing player to make really risky and aggressive plays, just to keep from straight losing to it. The fact that running this specific playstyle can put you at such a large advantage that if forces you to play a certain way just screams uncompetitive to me.
I think that the main reason SmashPass has been shot down for suspect is because of how truly uncommon it is. I find it astounding that the ladder isn't infested with SmashPass teams due to how incredibly easy it is to get wins with. I feel that this is more of a product of the NU community and how we've already sort of "tabooed" it. I just implore everyone to remember that usage does not equal viability. Just because people aren't using SmashPass frequently, doesn't mean that it's unhealthy for the tier when it is being used. This is similar in a sense, to the other former QuickPass abuser in NU: Combusken (although at a much larger scale) in the sense that CombuskenPass was not very common at all early on in NU Alpha. Even after people found out about Combusken and how cancerous it really was, it wasn't really as commonplace as one would expect to find for such an unfair, matchup based strategy. I'm going to go a little off the wall here and make an irl comparison that I believe might hold some weight here. Pretty much everyone on this site lives in a 1st or 2nd world country and lives a relatively comfortable lifestyle compared to how the world is in some countries. We are lucky enough to not be concerned with issues like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger, however we do acknowledge their existence in our world. Now in no way, am I comparing how incredibly awful stuff like AIDS, Malaria and world hunger to an uncompetitive strategy in Pokemon, the point i'm simply trying to make is that because these things don't affect us in our everyday lives, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. People forget about things that they aren't exposed to, it's the nature of how things go. Friends grow apart if they don't see each other a lot. Why do you think subjects in school are so hard after each grade even though people are in school for 10 months of the year? Because we take the summer and aren't exposed to school work which in turn, makes it so hard to remember what the hell we learned last year. I propose that we suspect SmashPass now in order to finally resolve this once and for all instead of letting it sit and fester for longer than it needs to.
I'm gonna end this long ass post by reminding people that we agreed earlier as a tier to more open suspect testing in order to try and keep the tier as fun and as competitive as possible. By continuing to sit back and not even consider a suspect to SmashPass, we are doing the exact opposite of that. If the community really doesn't see SmashPass as uncompetitive then it's done and over with, at least we don't have to keep bringing it up every couple months until someone else realizes how dumb this strategy is. haha what even are AP exams fuck that i have to write an essay about pokemon.
/me is .lessmad and .stillbad
tl;dr: SmashPass is too uncompetitive and too matchup based to be healthy for the tier. It has gotten better since the beginning of ORAS and just because it's uncommon doesn't mean that it doesn't still exist. Suspect it pl0x
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Can-Eh-Dian
"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions--and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive."
this is a bad definition cause it uses uncompetitive to define uncompetitive. Not gonna comment about smash pass cause idk what its like in this meta, but yeah, shrang made a long ass discussion on what is uncompetitive here and why that definition is bad, interesting read at the very least.
"Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions--and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive."
this is a bad definition cause it uses uncompetitive to define uncompetitive. Not gonna comment about smash pass cause idk what its like in this meta, but yeah, shrang made a long ass discussion on what is uncompetitive here and why that definition is bad, interesting read at the very least.
ah ty i didn't know this thread existed i'll edit accordingly
Yeah I'd support smashpass suspect.
To help support this suspect, I'm starting a riot outside iplaytennislol's stable! Come join me in the hopes that we stop this borked playstyle!
To help support this suspect, I'm starting a riot outside iplaytennislol's stable! Come join me in the hopes that we stop this borked playstyle!
SmashPass being a "taboo" as you said in your post makes it an interesting case. Is it really as good as it appears to be, or is it just because people don't prepare for it as much as they would if it was a big player in the meta? I feel like it has the potential to bring more depth to the metagame if it gets a bit more use, it is sort of an "unique" archetype, pretty much equivalent to combo decks in MtG. The question is whether SmashPass is more like Twin, which you don't really have to prepare for to beat it or a monster like FlashHulk which is stupidly unbeatable no matter what you do. To find what the answer is, we need to bring SmashPass usage up.
Advertise the use of SmashPass and then we'll see if it deserves a suspect. It probably does but is should really be looked into first.
Advertise the use of SmashPass and then we'll see if it deserves a suspect. It probably does but is should really be looked into first.
please don't
it's been around long enough for everyone to know exactly what it does, and the small niche strategies used to deal with it that hold you back in any other matchup. it's a cancerous playstyle that good players mainly don't use due to a sort of "code of honour"; the use of it in tournaments is if either you're not confident in your own abilities or you're some lunatic who just wants your opponent to suffer like shake. smashpass has always been a stupid playstyle that requires very little skill to use, sets you up for a formulaic and boring game, and is utterly broken as a whole, especially because of how the oras nu meta is shaped as can described.
ban this shit, i'd be happy for a simple council vote on this, don't think it would require a suspect
magneton suspect right after pls
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honestly I haven't played NU much but from just watching games and knowing the basic way smashpass works, it's incredibly broken and formulaic as cherub described. basically his post hit the nail on the head lol, there's little competitive value in having smashpass around and it should be banned.
Lanturn is your best bet for both of them n_n
for pyroar, it's easily worn down by hazards but it is a very good core breaker and not a lot of people prepare for the coverage it has, your best bet is a pokemon like lanturn, hariyama, mantine and for magneton just use stunfisk, lanturn or even spdef quag if you can fit it on your team.
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