NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

[dbcb]

Can't you just pick people you want to battle ala wifi?

If the ladder is no fun then why not just play individual battles against "good" players?

 

[Heysup]

I'm not arguing anything. I'm merely stating facts. If it offends you that a large group of people on the ladder would rather experiment with novel sets than play competitively I invite you to make a hardcore team full of what you feel are the best pokemon in the tier and get to the top of the leaderboard, since by your argument it's very easy to beat gimmicky users like me and thund. If enough people do that maybe players like us will take the ladder seriously enough to start using bog standards again! Until then though please excuse me if I continue using things like venomoth and ninetales and still end up consistently winning the vast majority of my games against players using things like Moltres and Milotic

You seem to think that the main idea of my posts are that "I'm offended" or something completely unrelated to the actual content of my post. Additionally, you are trying to make this personal and thus irrelevant. I don't care that you and thund use Venomoth and Ninetales, I'm not talking about "gimmicky" Pokemon users, I'm talking about people not "trying" to play competitively. There are clearly people (For example, yourself) who use things like Jynx with Lovely Hax to the best of their ability (ie competitively), and these Pokemon don't really have other Pokemon who outclass them. My main complaint is that people are not making good teams, they are just using whatever Pokemon for whatever reason (ie not competitively). I should not be able to run from 0-1550 without losing once using a team that is basically designed to fail "if you're thinking straight during your team building process".

This is why you get a much higher quality matches in tournaments, people put more thought into their teams and don't just try to surprise their opponent using one dimensional uncompetitive strategies, it's not a risk worth taking. I'm not going to risk that LonelyNess is going to use something with a Taunt lead or a way of dealing with Omastar, so I'm going to use my more competitive team during our SPL match.

...You guys are complaining about the vast majority of players not being good enough to entertain you? That is a very egotistical and selfish reason to hate the current metagame.

It's egotistical and selfish to expect people to play competitively on a competitive Pokemon server? I must be out of place then or something iono.

And nope, I don't strive to build the best team out there or perfect a certain playstyle, but apparently you know the way I play better than myself.

I know the way you play pretty damn well, and it is definitely under the category of competitive (by any reasonable definition). You don't just use Lovely Hax Jynx for shits and giggles, you use it because it fits your team well and you use it very effectively. I'm talking about peoples entire attitude towards the ladder. There are too few players who are playing competitively. A competitive player will beat my shitty Omastar team without even thinking about it.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Right, let's try and move on from the metagame love/hate and talk about some cool things that this 'stable' metagame has let us try out (preferably to good effect). So I would say CM Psychics are among the most threatening Pokemon out there, being able to manhandle the common Fire/Water/Grass cores once you remove/weaken some specific Dark-type Pokemon (basically Spiritomb). I think someone mentioned the effectiveness of a Mismagius + CM Psychic offensive combo not too long ago, and I've been using something similar with a variety of different Psychics with nice results. I played around with CM Alakazam but had some difficulty setting up against opponents who didn't switch out in fear / had just used a support move. CM Mesprit was very nice and impressed me a lot, and it's a Pokemon I would definitely recommend outside of the lead position it is so often relegated to. Grumpig was fun but don't try it haha. But out of all of them, I am now completely in love with CM Gardevoir - it is fast (enough), it's strong, it can take a decent beating on the special side, and it has so so many options aside from the obligatory CM/Psychic/coverage move that it'll keep you occupied for days!

Gardevoir @ Leftovers
Timid - Trace
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Focus Blast / Thunderbolt
- Will-o-Wisp / Taunt / Encore / Wish / Hypnosis / Heal Bell / Pain Split / (Disable) / Destiny Bond

Trace is niche but can still be extremely helpful - in particular it makes it quite easy to switch in on Intimidate Hitmontop and certain Flash Fire users, while also acting as a decent check to Rain / Sun teams. Try this thing out, it has a crazy number of viable options to play around with and has a very good balance of power and bulk. You can tailor it to fit a lot of specific team needs and still function as a great setup sweeper.

 

[M BLADE]

I already used this kind or Gardy,but with some twists:

- 252 HP over 252 SpA
-Second attack is Signal Beam

And that's it lol

Last spot is Wish, so my Gardy makes a support sweeper (i love those... how you can not love CM Heal Bell Uxie, or Rest Talk CM Lava Plume Entei?).

 

[FlareBlitz]

Yeah I like this line of discussion better.

A note on that Gardevoir: Synchronize should be used if you're running Heal Bell in order to screw things like Toxic Milotic and Chansey over. I would probably run Wish on that last slot though, just because at least it'll help cushion your switch-in if you invite something like Houndoom.

Well I've been briefly testing a Golduck. I run:

Golduck @Leftovers/Life Orb
Timid-Cloud Nine
40 HP/252 SATK/216 SPE
-Calm Mind
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Toxic/Focus Blast

The main aim of this Golduck is to lure in common counters to specially-oriented sweepers and cripple/kill them. Toxic with Leftovers is preferred if you're more interested in beating Milotic and prefer survivability, while Life Orb lets you beat defensive Venusaur and Registeel way easier (Ice Beam ohko's physically defensive Venusaur with Life Orb at +1 where the leftovers one doesn't and Focus Blast does 65% minimum to Registeel, where Surf barely doesn't 2hko).

This Golduck is best used in tandem with things like Mismagius and Specstile.

 

[Heysup]

Right, let's try and move on from the metagame love/hate and talk about some cool things that this 'stable' metagame has let us try out (preferably to good effect). So I would say CM Psychics are among the most threatening Pokemon out there, being able to manhandle the common Fire/Water/Grass cores once you remove/weaken some specific Dark-type Pokemon (basically Spiritomb). I think someone mentioned the effectiveness of a Mismagius + CM Psychic offensive combo not too long ago, and I've been using something similar with a variety of different Psychics with nice results. I played around with CM Alakazam but had some difficulty setting up against opponents who didn't switch out in fear / had just used a support move. CM Mesprit was very nice and impressed me a lot, and it's a Pokemon I would definitely recommend outside of the lead position it is so often relegated to. Grumpig was fun but don't try it haha. But out of all of them, I am now completely in love with CM Gardevoir - it is fast (enough), it's strong, it can take a decent beating on the special side, and it has so so many options aside from the obligatory CM/Psychic/coverage move that it'll keep you occupied for days!

Gardevoir @ Leftovers
Timid - Trace
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Focus Blast / Thunderbolt
- Will-o-Wisp / Taunt / Encore / Wish / Hypnosis / Heal Bell / Pain Split / (Disable) / Destiny Bond

Trace is niche but can still be extremely helpful - in particular it makes it quite easy to switch in on Intimidate Hitmontop and certain Flash Fire users, while also acting as a decent check to Rain / Sun teams. Try this thing out, it has a crazy number of viable options to play around with and has a very good balance of power and bulk. You can tailor it to fit a lot of specific team needs and still function as a great setup sweeper.

Even with Trace I feel this is better left to Alakazam. I do think Wish and WoW could be useful and differentiate it a bit though. WoW in particular helps it set up.

Personally my experience with Psychics is quite weird. They are something I'm always weak against but also something I never seem to be able to fit into my team.

EDIT: Thanks LR lol

 

[M BLADE]

Yeah I like this line of discussion better.

A note on that Gardevoir: Synchronize should be used if you're running Heal Bell in order to screw things like Toxic Milotic and Chansey over. .

Don't. If you run Synchronize, use Espeon instead (which also gets Heal Bell) since Espeon is way faster.

The first line is the truth.

Even with Trace I feel this is better left to Alakazam. I do think Wish and WoW could be useful and differentiate it a bit though. WoW in particular helps it set up.

That's why i prefer th 252 HP EVs instead of 252 SpA ones.

Helps even more to differ from Alakazam since Kazam can't take hits at all.

 

[shrang]

WoW is probably the best move in that massive list of alternatives (lol). Nothing like luring in Spiritomb and completely dismantling it with Will-O-Wisp. Gardy can then be paired up with Alakazam to take advantage of a weakened Tomb as well.

EDIT: Oh and:

Golduck @Leftovers/Life Orb
Timid-Cloud Nine
40 HP/252 SATK/216 SPE
-Calm Mind
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Toxic/Focus Blast

Consider Hypnosis for the last spot as well. Calm Mind up as they bring in their counter, put it to sleep. RestTalking Milotic is a pain, but whatever. You can also run Lum Berry or something like that for the item, so if something like Chansey comes in as you CM, put it to sleep, continue boosting until it wakes up, get cured of status, put it to sleep again, boost once more and start attacking. This is, of course dependent on how many turns Chansey stays asleep for and HYPNOSIS DOES NOT ****ING MISS!!

 

[FlareBlitz]

I don't trust hypnosis. Lovely Miss happens often enough that I absolutely would not put my faith in any attack that has even less accuracy.

 

[Heysup]

I don't trust hypnosis. Lovely Miss happens often enough that I absolutely would not put my faith in any attack that has even less accuracy.

Fact: Lovely Kiss hits 100% of the time and lasts for four turns.

And Golduck would be interesting because UU is generally filled with Pokemon around base 80.

 

[shrang]

Fact: Lovely Kiss hits 100% of the time and lasts for four turns.

LOL. I remember when Flare's Specs Rain Gorebyss swept my entire troll team when Hydro Pump did not miss ONCE.

 

[Rolf]

Yeah, a megathread is hardly even needed...

Even if the rest of his post was as naive as we've come to expect from yuggles, I'm going to back up this statement. Heck, even in a "suspect" metagame this thread isn't needed. All that it does is create numerous circular arguments which in the ends aren't resolved and posts such as the ones above mine that should be going in the cmt. Any information discussed can be done by creating threads on large suspects/threats or in the cmt. That way the discussion, if you can call it that, on all the different topics doesn't run together like bad dairrhea.

 

[shrang]

I guess it's better than people posting up random threads like "OMG Cacturne is awesome" and turning the forum into a clusterfuck I guess.

 

[Heysup]

Even if the rest of his post was as naive as we've come to expect from yuggles, I'm going to back up this statement. Heck, even in a "suspect" metagame this thread isn't needed. All that it does is create numerous circular arguments which in the ends aren't resolved and posts such as the ones above mine that should be going in the cmt. Any information discussed can be done by creating threads on large suspects/threats or in the cmt. That way the discussion, if you can call it that, on all the different topics doesn't run together like bad dairrhea.

First of all I don't know who claimed that this metagame was "suspectless" in the first place, because currently it is not in that state, but anyway the thread is still useful. We have not had nominations, we have not voted, and we have not even discussed many important aspects of the metagame yet such as "what strategies are effective" and even "what's common on the ladder(we are talking about this at the moment)" or more importantly "what are people using in tournaments".

These are some of the perks of having a general UU metagame thread.

Specifically, I don't know how you'd argue that even before in the "obviously suspect" metagames that a thread isn't needed. The thread served as a place where people could ask others opinions on what they thought was broken and brought logical reasoning into convincing people whether they were wrong or right. I'll admit they haven't always been productive, but they have always been a good thing to have.

Yes, you can start threads on Pokemon that you think are broken, but what about Pokemon such as Dugtrio and Moltres who weren't really thought of as broken and were practically one-sided. Those threads wouldn't produce much more than a quick lock.

A general thread allows us to talk about anything that doesn't deserve its own topic, which happens to be a lot.

 

[FlareBlitz]

So, as we all know, Moltres, as well as other powerful fire types, are a moderately powerful threat right now. This is what I'm currently using as my Moltres counter. One of the few Pokemon who manages to reliably beat Moltres while still fitting within an offensive team (the others being Azumarill and Arcanine). Fits particularly well among FWG-oriented bulky offense teams.

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Timid, 136 HP, 188 SPE, 134 SATK
-Calm Mind
-Flamethrower
-HP Rock/Energy Ball
-Pain Split
(note: if not running HP Rock, grab 4 SPE and stick it into SATK)

Ninetales is criminally underrated. It has excellent special defense, speed, passable special attack, and is unique among fire types for having access to Energy Ball, which is basically HP Grass with a nice power boost. This set puts its excellent speed and special bulk to use; this Ninetales hard counters all offensive Moltres, Magmortar, and most Rotom, and soft counters Arcanine (slight chance of a 2hko with LO Extremespeed if it switches in on it and rocks) and the increasingly popular special Venusaur (only soft because of sleep powder and sludge bomb's insanely annoying poison rate).
With Energy Ball, this Ninetales becomes one of the best bulky water lures in the metagame. Milotic loves switching in, only to realize with dawning horror that its surfs can't even 2hko after a couple of calm minds while any damage it does deal is healed off easily with Pain Split until Energy Ball can kill.
HP Rock over Energy Ball comes down to how much you hate other Fire types. Flamethrower does just fine in disposing of Moltres after a couple of boosts (guaranteed to 2hko at +3, good chance of 2hko at +2) and it's not like it can do much back to you anyway, but if you're afraid of Air Slash crits or just want an attack to hit Altaria or Arcanine really hard. Note that Energy Ball/Flamethrower will give you major problems with FF Arcanine, while HP Rock/Flamethrower will give you major problems against bulky waters.

Note to NU players: Ninetales is still NU! If you're having Magmortar blues go pick one up.

 

[Heysup]

Wow I completely forgot that Ninetales learned Calm Mind, that set looks interesting. My only concern is that you're very vulnerable to status, and that's exactly what most bulky waters are going to use anyway (out of fear that you'll switch out).

Have you tried SubCM?

 

[Bluewind]

I tried that set back then on a troll account and it didn't seem much effective to me to be honest. Even after a considerable amount of boosts I was still hitting stuff for lol damage (I remember doing 30-35% to Milotic at +2) and mostly something faster would just come and threaten me out. That isn't to mention Energy Ball doesn't OHKO Rhyperior at +0 x.x

 

[Ekanselttar]

First of all I don't know who claimed that this metagame was "suspectless" in the first place, because currently it is not in that state, but anyway the thread is still useful.

Does this mean you're considering nominating something for BL at the end of the period, or did I misinterpret this?

As far as suspectless goes, the only poke that really stands out to me is Milotic, but it's less BL than really freaking annoying.

 

[IronBullet]

Yeah I like this line of discussion better.

A note on that Gardevoir: Synchronize should be used if you're running Heal Bell in order to screw things like Toxic Milotic and Chansey over. I would probably run Wish on that last slot though, just because at least it'll help cushion your switch-in if you invite something like Houndoom.

Well I've been briefly testing a Golduck. I run:

Golduck @Leftovers/Life Orb
Timid-Cloud Nine
40 HP/252 SATK/216 SPE
-Calm Mind
-Surf
-Ice Beam
-Toxic/Focus Blast
The main aim of this Golduck is to lure in common counters to specially-oriented sweepers and cripple/kill them. Toxic with Leftovers is preferred if you're more interested in beating Milotic and prefer survivability, while Life Orb lets you beat defensive Venusaur and Registeel way easier (Ice Beam ohko's physically defensive Venusaur with Life Orb at +1 where the leftovers one doesn't and Focus Blast does 65% minimum to Registeel, where Surf barely doesn't 2hko).

This Golduck is best used in tandem with things like Mismagius and Specstile.

I've been using Golduck too, and I don't find the need to run Focus Blast because Missy does such a good job of luring in and KOing Registeel. I use it as a sort of late-game sweeper, and it's been doing extremely well, only stopped by shit like Chansey who is setup bait for Missy anyway.

 

[capefeather]

Thund: I just want to get this straight. I was just trying to say that I don't appreciate people calling each other pathetic. That's it. I'm not even complaining anymore, and even if I was, I do have every right to voice my experiences about the UU ladder in a responsible manner, and so does everyone else, as much as you have the right to complain about our complaining. All I meant by the "frustration" line was that everyone strives at least to improve. We're all trying to win to some extent. But Heysup basically said what I was going to say here.

I deeply apologize to Aldaron and everyone in this thread for bringing this back up one more time. I just felt the need to get this straight and apologize to everyone. I didn't mean to offend or insult anyone; this was just one misunderstanding after another, which has led to baseless accusations. My posts have been coloured with questionable personality lately <.< I don't like being misinterpreted.

ANYWAYS

I briefly fooled around with Nasty Plot passing with this guy:

Mr. Mime (M) @ Salac Berry
252 HP / 4 SpD/ 252 Spe Calm
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Baton Pass

I didn't use it long enough to "speed-fix" the EVs, and Ambipom probably outclasses this because there aren't many phazers in UU, but it worked a bit better than I thought it would.

 

[Heysup]

Does this mean you're considering nominating something for BL at the end of the period, or did I misinterpret this?

As far as suspectless goes, the only poke that really stands out to me is Milotic, but it's less BL than really freaking annoying.

I meant exactly what I said: "We haven't nominated or voted on anything, so we don't know if this is a suspect-free metagame or not"

ANYWAYS

I briefly fooled around with Nasty Plot passing with this guy:

Mr. Mime (M) @ Salac Berry
252 HP / 4 SpD/ 252 Spe Calm
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Psychic
- Baton Pass

I didn't use it long enough to "speed-fix" the EVs, and Ambipom probably outclasses this because there aren't many phazers in UU, but it worked a bit better than I thought it would.

In my experience Mr Mime just gets hammered by anything remotely resembling a "strong physical attack" and faints right there.

 

[Stagnant]

Nevertheless, Mr. Mime will more than likely force a switch therefore is almost guaranteed a Sub or Nasty Plot. However, I feel that EspyJump is better suited to passing such boosts.

 

[GMLW]

I guess CM Ninetales beats Entei because of superior Sp. Def, but SubCM is soundly outclassed by Entei. I would much rather have that insane HP stat and 101 subs than that little bit of extra Sp. Def.

 

[Oglemi]

As far as suspectless goes, the only poke that really stands out to me is Milotic, but it's less BL than really freaking annoying.

This. Seriously, go die Milo. I'd rather get forced into a stall match with two Wobbuffets back in RSE than face another Milotic at the moment...

 

[Stellar]

I used CM + Pain Split Ninetales a few weeks ago as a way to differentiate it from Houndoom. While it works "sometimes", it isn't what I would call reliable by any means.