NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

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Bluewind

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Really I could just copy paste your whole nomination and call it a day, but that doesn't even make sense to me as 20 others have summed up everything that was to be said regarding the No Suspects status of the metagame "nothing stood out as broken to me". I don't think comparing it to previous stages of the metagame is really necessary, especially considering in many of them some broken mons were being overshadowed by even more broken mons (like Yanmega's stage, which IIRC you mentioned, so if Milotic is to be considered broken you can't claim those two stages were equal).
 
UU feels like OU used to: Dried up, and stale. I don't know where people are or were seeing all of this 'variety'.

I think it's time to start playing NU. Or Ubers. Or Magic: The Gathering.
 
UU feels like OU used to: Dried up, and stale. I don't know where people are or were seeing all of this 'variety'.

I think it's time to start playing NU. Or Ubers. Or Magic: The Gathering.
O____O
I see a lot of F/W/G/Ghost cores, but other than that, I don't see how there is a "lack" of variety around; even within the cores, there's a lot of variation, as multiple Pokes are viable within those types.
one thing I hate, though, is the amount of Ambipom leads that just go Fake Out-->Taunt--> U-Turn, only to be beat up on by Spiritomb.
 
The fire part of the F/W/G core is sort of unneeded when Venu beats other grass types. Milotic / Venu is such an excellent stall combo, and I think that this combo is so prevalent on stall that CB Rhyperior isn't even that good against stall teams (where it is supposed to be good). Venusaur is lol too. Restalk Weezing with some spDef counters everything except for possibly SD + Return + Sleep Powder if you get unlucky with sleep talk. The suspects that are being presented are rather lol worthy.
 
@ Bluewind:

I can definitely understand the earlier posts saying "nothing sticks out as broken" or "I like this metagame it's balanced" but the posts just saying "No Suspects" are basically implying "wut he said".
 

Bluewind

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If they imply "wut he said" and if "wut he said" was that "nothing sticks out as broken" then I see nothing wrong. After all the whole paragraph process is just a repetition of the same things yet said with different words or more in-depth thought; save one or two exceptions.
 

Yuggles

hey that second guy isn't too bad
Mostly because Milotic doesn't get Battle Armor and in order to stall out the 10 hits that Life Orb provides; there is a 52% chance theoretically that you will get a critical hit one of those 10 hits.
Critical hits aren't even a factor in what checks/counters a Pokemon has, as far as I know. Otherwise Moltres would have been banned for critting Milotic/Slowking with HP Grass. Rhyperior is not staying in for 10 turns.
 

FlareBlitz

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Uh if you need to stall something out for 10 turns in order to beat it then yeah critical hits are definitely a factor.
 

Yuggles

hey that second guy isn't too bad
Uh if you need to stall something out for 10 turns in order to beat it then yeah critical hits are definitely a factor.
You don't stall it out for 10 turns. I just said that. The whole scenario is ridiculous and I definitely shouldn't have brought it up, I guess I momentarily forgot about the condescending and nitpicking nature of some of the posters here!
 

FlareBlitz

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Please think before posting, Froslass and Latias were banned because they were broken as clearly demonstrated by weeks of playtesting and discussion. The fact that you don't get to abuse them anymore to compensate for a lack of skill doesn't mean the metagames are "fucked up". If you need broken Pokemon to have to fun, feel free to get some friends and challenge them with whatever teams you wish, otherwise stop interrupting legitimate discussion with your inane whining, thanks.
 
@ lmitchell0012

You're not being very productive or respectful with your comments. Are we to take it that your opinion is somehow better than those of us tiering contributors and voters?

then again this post is probably not that productive either
 

shrang

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I am interested in process of testing of UU Suspects themselves though. It is a completely different system to the OU Suspect test process. I'm aware not a lot of people would play a UU Suspect tier, and the process would take about 5 times longer, but currently, we would be banning Pokemon on pretty much perception and not "Does this Pokemon really make a difference". For example, for something like Froslass or Raikou where it wasn't entirely clear whether they were broken or not (As they did stick around for a while), I see no reason why we cannot isolate them from the UU tier, have a UU Suspect tier and compare the difference (Apart from the reasons I've already stated, lack of players and time). I'd feel a lot better if we say, use 1-2 weeks playtesting to nominate Suspects, then another 1-2 weeks where the Suspects are removed from UU and then we compare the two metagames and see whether a Suspect is detrimental or not.
 
I'm pretty certain that at this stage of the game (Gen V in mere months), it would be pointless to do anything more than what we're doing now. For Gen V, though, I think that the Council or whoever could run "alternative" ladder environments that would function like the perma-weather tests done on CAP. It would be like the Suspect ladder except there wouldn't be any binding results save for something extreme like an Uber turning out to be obviously OU or something.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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I think Shrang has an interesting idea. We shortened playtesting time to 4 weeks from 6 primarily because obviously broken shit like Cresselia was sticking around for way, way too long. Given that, it might make sense to re-adopt the 6 week testing period, but instead have it so that we play 4 weeks, nominating suspects, and then spend 2 weeks playing it a metagame without them. This solves the problem of not having an UU Suspect ladder while also allowing UU to have a process very similar to the process OU follows. Hopefully Jabba/Reach/someone is reading this and gives it due consideration.
Edit for Cape: Gen V is not "weeks" away, it'll be at least half a year before it gets properly implemented in Shoddy, if not more. Also, for the record, I absolutely HATE the "Council" idea, and a quick look through that unholy abomination of a thread in Stark should adequately explain why. Really all we're doing with having a Council make tiering decisions is shortening the sample size for the voting pool (i.e. picking 9 people to vote on Salamence instead of however many people normally vote on suspects), and as we all learned in freshman statistics, a smaller sample size results in a greater margin of error.
 
I think Shrang has an interesting idea. We shortened playtesting time to 4 weeks from 6 primarily because obviously broken shit like Cresselia was sticking around for way, way too long. Given that, it might make sense to re-adopt the 6 week testing period, but instead have it so that we play 4 weeks, nominating suspects, and then spend 2 weeks playing it a metagame without them. This solves the problem of not having an UU Suspect ladder while also allowing UU to have a process very similar to the process OU follows. Hopefully Jabba/Reach/someone is reading this and gives it due consideration.
I actually really really like this idea. Actually I thought of something similar earlier yesterday but didn't get around to posting it and Sundays aren't exactly open to me but this sounds even better then I had it planned in my head. I fully support this and think it would help us exponentially on making "the right decision" before we ban something potentially gamebreaking such as Milotic.

Yuggles, don't hastily generalize please. When you post you have to expect it will be put under the microscope.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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That's similar to how things used to be done...which was terrible

It unnecessarily slowed down the process so that a metagame could be played that tests what? Removing a suspect from the metagame and then having people play both metagames turns the voting process into a "what metagame do you prefer more?" Which is definitely not how we want things. Not to mention it forces people to qualify for both periods and over the duration of that second period it's easy to forget exactly how good a Pokemon is.
 
That's similar to how things used to be done...which was terrible

It unnecessarily slowed down the process so that a metagame could be played that tests what? Removing a suspect from the metagame and then having people play both metagames turns the voting process into a "what metagame do you prefer more?" Which is definitely not how we want things. Not to mention it forces people to qualify for both periods and over the duration of that second period it's easy to forget exactly how good a Pokemon is.
I think it isn't the system that's flawed then; in theory it would work great. It's the voters problem in their ability to forget quickly and not vote based on emotion and not fact, though if it hasn't worked in the past then it won't work now. History doesn't lie...
 
Edit for Cape: Gen V is not "weeks" away, it'll be at least half a year before it gets properly implemented in Shoddy, if not more. Also, for the record, I absolutely HATE the "Council" idea, and a quick look through that unholy abomination of a thread in Stark should adequately explain why. Really all we're doing with having a Council make tiering decisions is shortening the sample size for the voting pool (i.e. picking 9 people to vote on Salamence instead of however many people normally vote on suspects), and as we all learned in freshman statistics, a smaller sample size results in a greater margin of error.
Quoted for truth...



Why oh why are people still using Mesprit as a shitty Uxie? Running SR/TW/UT/? is completely pointless on mesprit.

The easiest way to pull out and kill Milotic has got to be sunny day moltres IMO. And so many people are depending on just milotic that it can reallly blow a hole in there team..
 
FlareBlitz said:
Gen V is not "weeks" away, it'll be at least half a year before it gets properly implemented in Shoddy, if not more. Also, for the record, I absolutely HATE the "Council" idea, and a quick look through that unholy abomination of a thread in Stark should adequately explain why. Really all we're doing with having a Council make tiering decisions is shortening the sample size for the voting pool (i.e. picking 9 people to vote on Salamence instead of however many people normally vote on suspects), and as we all learned in freshman statistics, a smaller sample size results in a greater margin of error.
I did say "months". If a Gen V simulator happens half a year from the release, that's still less than a year from now. I just think that things might get awkward with people ditching Gen IV for cartridge Gen V and whatever hastily made, glitchy Gen V simulator comes out after that.

The Council was implemented because the old system took way too long. We're testing Salamence NOW when Gen V is visible on the horizon. Also it's not nine random people from the 30 or so that could have voted. It's the nine BEST of the group. Trying to avoid commenting on this further b/c it's off-topic lol.

Rolfkip said:
I think it isn't the system that's flawed then; in theory it would work great. It's the voters problem in their ability to forget quickly and not vote based on emotion and not fact, though if it hasn't worked in the past then it won't work now. History doesn't lie...
lolcommunism

If we're aware that the human factor messes up the proposal then it doesn't work in theory. I don't know what it is with people not considering human psychology part of the theory...
 
I hope Milotic doesn't get banned. Getting rid of Milotic would create a massive wave of suspects. There are so many things that it keeps from being overpowered.
 
I hope Milotic doesn't get banned. Getting rid of Milotic would create a massive wave of suspects. There are so many things that it keeps from being overpowered.
This is a perfect example of why I think "no suspect" nominations should either be removed or be forced to provide at least some sort of reasoning. This example shows how someone can "vote against" a suspect for completely irrelevant or invalid points whether it be "the pokemon stops other pokemon from being broken so lets not ban it even if it is broken" or "I like this metagame let's keep it".

It doesn't matter what Milotic checks - in fact that's partially why Milotic itself is broken, but that's not my point at the moment. If the Pokemon who's checking other Pokemon that would be broken is broken, then it should be banned. If that results in more broken Pokemon, then those Pokemon are also broken (not likely in this case, but it doesn't matter) and will be banned.

By your logic we should just unban Crobat, Shaymin, Raikou, and whatever else was banned because they stopped certain Pokemon from being broken. That's not how the system works.
 

FlareBlitz

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Milotic shouldn't be banned under the Defensive Characteristic, which says a Pokemon is broken if it walls a significant portion of the metagame, because it walls a significant portion of the metagame? :|

Anyway, update on my anti-milotic team. Found out that I have a pretty major Moltres issue due to the lack of my usual Flash Fire poke. Made some changes and other refinements. It's doing pretty well after the changes, although obviously not as well as my main team.
Interestingly, the team I'm using is more hyper-offensive in nature (I have a hard team using it as well because of this) and gets past Milotic much easier than my main bulky offense team does, so I'm finding all the "Milotic is shifting the metagame towards balance" complaints difficult to reconcile with my experiences. I would recommend that anyone who has any interest in Milotic's suspect status make a team with Milotic in mind as a #1 threat and see how successful they are, since at this point I'm nearly convinced that it's possible to beat it if you just pay attention to it while teambuilding.
 
I never claimed that Milotic was broken, and while I generally agree that that is a horrible argument, there are some cases where a pokemon that counters a broken pokemon isn't broken itself. For example, Umbreon counters Latias. Are we going to call Umbreon a suspect simply because it beats Latias? That is silly. Now, recognize this isn't a perfect example, but you get the point; A pokemon capable of countering a broken pokemon isn't necessarily broken. Is Chansey broken because it keeps Moltres from definite suspect status? I also don't plan on using that as my argument for my paragraph. It was not meant to be a logical conjecture, and I apologize for the slippery slope aspect of it.

@FlareBlitz, I also didn't say it walls a significant portion of the metagame. It is rather the best counter to some top-tier threats. Aaanyway, I agree that ultimately beating these walls comes down to teambuilding. It isn't like Milotic is comparable to Cresselia, which had almost nothing that could switch into it and could use the massive bulk to set up calm minds. It is purely a defensive threat, can be broken by several of the offensive powerhouses of the metagame that it is supposed to counter (Moltres, Azumarill can get the 2hko with some hazards, Rhyperior, Aggron can ohko with some prior damage, etc.), is countered by the huge amount of grass types in the metagame (whether it is the cause of this or not is difficult to establish). It could be argued that the suspect status of every new grass type to come along is part of the reason Milo is so good.

The metagame seems quite balanced right now, and I think that removing any of the current suspects would increase the need for the rest of them to be removed, and might bring up a lot more suspects. I hate to go slippery slope, but we might have to ban 5-8 things to establish a metagame with any semblance of balance if any of the current suspects are taken out. Rhyperior is partially kept at bay by the Venusaur/Milotic cores that exist right now. Likewise Milotic is hindered by the ever-present Venusaur (and Toxicroak too, but w/e) and the other grass types. Moltres (hell, even Houndoom) would become much worse without Milotic to keep it in check (Chansey is not something that every team wants to commit to). The banning of Milotic and Venusaur might also cause a wave of Rain Dance-related bans, because Kabutops would certainly love to see one or two of its common checks get banned, as well as a decrease in Toxicroak usage after the Milotic ban. My point is that if the metagame is currently balanced by some of the more powerful members of UU, why can't we simply let it be instead of maybe banning 1-2 of the suspects (I doubt all of these suspects have the proper support currently) and then having to go through multiple suspect rounds to find balance again? With the metagame constantly producing a new Grass type to be #1, it is conceivable that we could be back to square one AGAIN if Exeggutor or Sceptile rise in popularity to take the place of Venusaur, Roserade, Shaymin...Are we gonna nominate the new hot shit grass type every time?

Ultimately, the fact is that the top pokemon are all capable of breaking through their checks (or walling tons of shit) and causing general chaos. The entire top echelon of pokemon are "broken" under the characteristics we have. Honestly the characteristics we have are shit anyway. A theoretical pokemon that beats 47 of the top 50 but loses to the top 3 would be considered broken under these parameters, which is rather ridiculous.

My greatest problem has always been fitting all of my thoughts into one reasonably concise paragraph, so I apologize if some of this is incomplete or incoherent or something.
 
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