np: UU - Can't Touch This

[GMLW]

Well, the deadline is over. Can I start battling again now, or are the mods still checking our ratings?

Okay fine, whatever. I was wrong. I don't really feel like debating right now. But I will say this. If these Pokemon have all these good attributes and are powerful, why are they NU?

Oh, and it isn't really up to preference. Earthquake immunity is better than Fire Blast or Flamethrower immunity. It always was and it always will be.

 

[Bluewind]

I'm sorry but in no way shape or form is Flash Fire a superior ability to Levitate.

If you have spinning support, that's a plus. Also, switching into something you are immune to and getting a 50% boost is something Mismagius can't do.

@Lonewolf: Again, it's not only immunity, it's a 50% boost. Also, do not distort what I've said because never have I said those pokés are better, they are arguably worse than other UU pokés. I do know Houndoom is all in all better than Ninetales, just as PZ is in comparision to Persian; but they have some unique traits that set them apart from oter UU pokés. I'm not delegating all people to use them, as I myself don't. All I did was to point out that in some kinds of teams, or if you don't mind taking chances with more risky moves, these pokés might prove to fit your team better.

Bolded the important parts so that people will stop bitching over that.

 

[M BLADE]

Well, the deadline is over. Can I start battling again now, or are the mods still checking our ratings?

Okay fine, whatever. I was wrong. I don't really feel like debating right now. But I will say this. If these Pokemon have all these good attributes and are powerful, why are they NU?

Oh, and it isn't really up to preference. Earthquake immunity is better than Fire Blast or Flamethrower immunity. It always was and it always will be.

Unless you have Flash Fire on Scizor or Forretress, of course...
But yes, EQ AND Spikes immunity is good.
Flash Fire is somewhat more offensive, while Levitate is defensive.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

The primary problem I see with this is that it discourages people from suggesting less "flashy" potential Suspects; writing a nomination paragraph is a lot of work, and I have hard time seeing anyone even writing a paragraph for Moltres/Kabutops/whatever if they don't think anyone else will mention it even if they believe it is horribly broken. As a result, should we go this route I believe that there should at least be a public count of how many nominations have been submitted for each Pokemon, to let people know that it is being discussed as a potential Suspect.

Whilst I can see where you're coming from here, this is somewhat connected to Synre's point about fickle suspect voters:

If our suspect voters are so flimsy that they are changing their votes based on what other people are writing, we really need to find a way for them not to be voting to begin with. I mean, I can see if arguments are particularly compelling, but if voters have played for six weeks and still need someone else to tell them what they think we're in trouble.

Similarly, if people need the reassurance that others are thinking the same way before making their opinions public, then we have another problem. It should be actively encouraged for people to speak their mind regardless of how 'popular' their views are, and they are free to express these views in the main thread weeks in advance of the nomination stage to get others talking about the suspect in question. Having said that, it is perhaps inevitable that such a mentality will continue to sour the suspect nominations process, and if a public count is required to motivate people then so be it. It is far from ideal but sometimes compromises have to be made.

What I haven't heard a good argument for, however, is why suspect nominations are completely public whilst suspect paragraphs are kept completely hidden, given that they are in essence the same kind of argument.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

On the subject of Ninetales and Persian, the main reason I don't like using these guys as NP sweepers is the fact that Hypnosis is an incredibly unreliable move, and a miss with Pokemon so frail will often result in failure. I mean, you never see a Pokemon like Leafeon using a Swords Dance + Grasswhistle set, even though it has a similar range of checks, counters and setup opportunities, as well as not being vulnerable to Dugtrio and much more priority resistant. It is often preferrable to use Venusaur with its more reliable sleep move and more general defensive uses, despite having worse offensive capabilities.

They might be alright for really ballsy people that don't mind taking big risks, but I wouldn't be comfortable using them.

 

[PK Gaming]

What with all of this talk about abilities and Nasty plotting I'd like people to think about Raichu.
And while he may seem like a terrible choice, Raichu's got a STAB, T-bolt and a wide variety of moves.

Now I know what your thinking, he's essentially a WORSE RAIKOU. Now I'd be a fool to state that Raichu is anywhere near Raikou, but there are a few things to consider.

Raikou's still weaker than Raichu right off the bat when using CM, since NP boost>CM (even with Raikou's superio SpA stat)

Raichu also has access to a wider variety of moves, (Focus blast, Encore etc)
So isn't outright outclassed.

PS: Rating average is JUST enough to be considered (I got it the first value to 1608 and the second one to below 55. All of this was done yesterday)



PS2: M Blade, Can't Typhlosion run an arguably better set since he isn't 4X SR, (and his typing isn't awful) and they learn the very same moves for said set?!?

 

[Heysup]

Similarly, if people need the reassurance that others are thinking the same way before making their opinions public, then we have another problem. It should be actively encouraged for people to speak their mind regardless of how 'popular' their views are, and they are free to express these views in the main thread weeks in advance of the nomination stage to get others talking about the suspect in question. Having said that, it is perhaps inevitable that such a mentality will continue to sour the suspect nominations process, and if a public count is required to motivate people then so be it. It is far from ideal but sometimes compromises have to be made.

I think this could be solved by not revealing which users nominated which Pokemon. This would still "encourage" people to send in nominations because they would see the numbers of people nominating and realize that their nomination wouldn't be "wasted" or "pointless".

What with all of this talk about abilities and Nasty plotting I'd like people to think about Raichu.
And while he may seem like a terrible choice, Raichu's got a STAB, T-bolt and a wide variety of moves.

Now I know what your thinking, he's essentially a WORSE RAIKOU. Now I'd be a fool to state that Raichu is anywhere near Raikou, but there are a few things to consider.

Raikou's still weaker than Raichu right off the bat when using CM, since NP boost>CM (even with Raikou's superio SpA stat)

Raichu also has access to a wider variety of moves, (Focus blast, Encore etc)
So isn't outright outclassed.

It is outright outclassed. Nasty Plot is a +2 boost, but Calm Mind is a +1 to SpA and +1 to SpD. It isn't even "better" considering it actually gives Raikou the ability to reliably set up +3-4. Raichu isn't even remotely bulky enough to survive and set up +2, nevermind +4. Focus Blast and Encore are cool, but you still aren't doing anything that Raikou can't do (setting up is probably still easier for Raikou than Raichu even without Encore). Raikou also avoids status ailments.

Also:

Raikou after +1: 486
Raichu after +2: 558

If you can give me a situation where the extra 72 SpA actually matters, then maybe you'll have a point. Maybe.

Additionally, consider this situation: Raikou/Raichu comes in on Milotic.

Milotic's Surf vs Raichu: 47.3% - 56.1%. It cannot switch-in or set up more than +2 without being forced out if it comes in on the revenge kill.

Milotic's Surf vs Raikou: 31.2% - 36.8%. It can easily switch-in and set up. A +1 Sub isn't even broken by Surf. This means Raikou, if the Milotic user was to stay in, could set up +6.

Similar situation applies for Slowbro.

Additionally, you're also not outspeeding: Mismagius (who can set up on your ass), Scyther (OHKOes you), Espeon (read Mismagius), Froslass (Taunts you before you can set up unlike Raikou), Ambipom (OHKOes you), Jumpluff (can Sleep or Encore you) etc. There are a lot of important Pokemon between 328 and 361.

So all in all, I would say Raichu is completely outclassed as a sweeper. A Focus Punch set wouldn't be 100% outclassed by Raikou, though it would probably be outclassed by something else.

 

[PK Gaming]

I think this could be solved by not revealing which users nominated which Pokemon. This would still "encourage" people to send in nominations because they would see the numbers of people nominating and realize that their nomination wouldn't be "wasted" or "pointless".

I think the reasoning for that is because paragraphs are meant to be a more in-depth approach to your position on each suspect while the nominations are simply saying "this isn't necessarily "broken" but lets vote on it because it is debatable".

However, I do agree that the content / users of each nomination should be hidden.





If Lemmiwinks doesn't feel comfortable using a Pokemon then you know it's bad :P. He is usually a fan of Pokemon such as those mentioned.



It is outright outclassed. Nasty Plot is a +2 boost, but Calm Mind is a +1 to SpA and +1 to SpD. It isn't even "better" considering it actually gives Raikou the ability to reliably set up +3-4. Raichu isn't even remotely bulky enough to survive and set up +2, nevermind +4. Focus Blast and Encore are cool, but you still aren't doing anything that Raikou can't do (setting up is probably still easier for Raikou than Raichu even without Encore). Raikou also avoids status ailments.

Also:

Raikou after +1: 486
Raichu after +2: 558

If you can give me a situation where the extra 72 SpA actually matters, then maybe you'll have a point. Maybe.

Additionally, consider this situation: Raikou/Raichu comes in on Milotic.

Milotic's Surf vs Raichu: 47.3% - 56.1%. It cannot switch-in or set up more than +2 without being forced out if it comes in on the revenge kill.

Milotic's Surf vs Raikou: 31.2% - 36.8%. It can easily switch-in and set up. A +1 Sub isn't even broken by Surf. This means Raikou, if the Milotic user was to stay in, could set up +6.

Similar situation applies for Slowbro.

Additionally, you're also not outspeeding: Mismagius (who can set up on your ass), Scyther (OHKOes you), Espeon (read Mismagius), Froslass (Taunts you before you can set up unlike Raikou), Ambipom (OHKOes you), Jumpluff (can Sleep or Encore you) etc. There are a lot of important Pokemon between 328 and 361.

So all in all, I would say Raichu is completely outclassed as a sweeper. A Focus Punch set wouldn't be 100% outclassed by Raikou, though it would probably be outclassed by something else.

Hmm, that's a fair point. But wouldn't that also be applicable to Mismagius? I mean why run Nasty Plot if CM is better?

Of course, I mentioned that Raikou was a better choice (maybe I should have said infinitely) and that I was foolish to assume that Raikou isn't setting up more than one CM.

The bolded raises a fair point that I would be a fool to miss. However, I am fully ready to find a case or two where the extra power might come in handy.


And the only competition that Focus Punch set faces is from Poliwrath.
Who trades speed and power (he is actually weaker base stat wise)
for bulk and typing.

Of course things may be different if Raikou ends up being banned, but that's a whole other can of worms...


PS: I actually appreciate the time you took to due some calculations instead of laugh me off. Thanks.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Heysup, how is Raichu "completely outclassed" when you point out that it ends up with more SATK and has a much better attacking and support movepool? Granted, the average team would probably be better off with Raikou, but that doesn't mean it completely outclasses Raichu.

 

[Heysup]

Heysup, how is Raichu "completely outclassed" when you point out that it ends up with more SATK and has a much better attacking and support movepool? Granted, the average team would probably be better off with Raikou, but that doesn't mean it completely outclasses Raichu.

Raikou after +1: 486
Raichu after +2: 558

If you can give me a situation where the extra 72 SpA actually matters, then maybe you'll have a point. Maybe.

Deja Vu

 

[PK Gaming]

I think the problem here is the word itself.

Hide

Phoenix Wright/Miles Edgeworth anyone?

Outclassed I find is far to strong. (similar to overshadowed)
generally, Raikou's just plain ole better, but in a situation in which he was outclassed would be if Raikou got Nasty plot.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I think the reasoning for that is because paragraphs are meant to be a more in-depth approach to your position on each suspect while the nominations are simply saying "this isn't necessarily "broken" but lets vote on it because it is debatable".

I suppose that would have made sense back when we had a special test period for the metagame between nominations and voting, but right now there is no testing to be done within this period. Your opinion of a Pokemon should not change all that much between these two stages. Besides, the moderators seem to be rather harsh when it comes to judging nominations (and most of my accepted paragraphs haven't been much more detailed, or even better quality, than some borderline nominations), so I'm not so sure about this.

If Lemmiwinks doesn't feel comfortable using a Pokemon then you know it's bad :P. He is usually a fan of Pokemon such as those mentioned.

Hey, way to oversimplify things! It is the high degree of uncertainty with a strategy that puts me off more than anything else. You know what you're getting with a well-played Qwilfish / Flareon / Ampharos / [insert obscure Pokemon I have used in the past] etc on a consistent basis. When your strategy relies on a highly inaccurate move, you are putting your success into the hands of lady luck, and it will fail a significant portion of the time no matter how well you handle it.

I never said they were 'bad' in any way, just not for everybody, only for certain people.

 

[GMLW]

So, is it safe to start battling again, or not?

So speaking of Raikou, what do you guys think of it? Broken or not? I'm very interested if anyone has ever used a moveset other than Sub Calm Mind.

 

[uragg]

Raikou is bulkier than people give it credit for, as 90 HP/115 Special Defense can certainly wall a lot of stuff, especially if you pump the EVs.

A defensive set of Roar/Rest/T-bolt/Sleep Talk can really wreak havoc on stall teams, albeit with the loss of the high (broken?) attacking power.

There's also just the CM + 3 attacks moveset, which is listed in its analysis and takes a more direct offensive approach.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hmm, Raichu is a mixed bag. He's versatile and fun to use and his fair of counters/checks.

However, Cresselia may have tampered with such an opinion.

PS: When will the results be posted for eligible voters?

 

[capefeather]

The test ends at midnight IIRC, so maybe give the nom/voter threads a week or so.

 

[Bluewind]

*Tears of joy drop from my eyes as I imagine a metagame with no Duck-Sphinix hybrid pokés.*

 

[PK Gaming]

*Tears of joy drop from my eyes as I imagine a metagame with no Duck-Sphinix hybrid pokés.*

(Cries with said person)

 

[Smurf.]

*Tears of joy drop from my eyes as I imagine a metagame with no Duck-Sphinix hybrid pokés.*

lol so true

 

[GMLW]

Yeah, good riddence. Now we aren't forced to use Spiritomb, Absol, Drapion, or Skuntank on every single team.

I'm very worried that my rating dropped below 1600 because I haven't played in two days and it only updates after you play a game so I can't tell. That would really piss me off because I already wrote the paragraphs.

 

[FlareBlitz]

I dunno, I think I'll miss Cresselia. It's broken, but still fun, because you have to play around it to beat it (like Yanmega). I'll not miss Froslass though.

 

[Bluewind]

I dunno, I think I'll miss Cresselia.

Thou shall not put those words on the same sentence when on my sight unless you seriously consider putting your life to an end.

 

[SilentVerse]

*Tears of joy drop from my eyes as I imagine a metagame with no Duck-Sphinix hybrid pokés.*

(Cries with said person)

lol so true

Yeah, good riddence. Now we aren't forced to use Spiritomb, Absol, Drapion, or Skuntank on every single team.

*stares at the mass of people who believe Cress is completely and utterly broken, before wondering why he doesn't think that way, then realizing why and writing it in his paragraph*

 

[Synre]

Unlike Cresselia, I'd say Froslass is anything but a sure thing, especially with how much it was overshadowed by other suspects that period.

Though I sure hope I've seen the last of both of them from a playstyle perspective.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Whatever Bluewind, I can take you. Setha has my back.

 

[Bluewind]

Whatever Bluewind, I can take you. Setha has my back.

If you thought that you thought it wrong. She's gotten all the money she needed to pay for law school and now she ain't on these business anymore. You're gonna have to resort to... Poliwrath (lol).

On a more serious note, I believe all suspects will end up being BL (maybe not this round though); and so I'm likely to vote them (still undecided on Kou and PZ, but leaning towards BL).