Why would I use Thunder Punch on Slowbro when i have HP Grass? I dont quite understand...
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np: UU - Six Deadly Suspects
- Thread starter Caelum
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Why would I use Thunder Punch on Slowbro when i have HP Grass? I dont quite understand...
Doesn't ScarfRoserade outclass ScarfVenusaur? It's faster with a higher Sp.A, an ability better suited for scarfing, and Spikes/T.Spikes.
Max HP/Max Sp.Def Roserade walls the hell out of Shaymin, although Psychic can leave a mark, and -2 Sp. Def Air Slashes/Hp [Ice/Fire]/Psychics also leave a mark. However, Seed Flare does ~10%, Earth Power ~20-25%, and even Air Slash + SE HP only does ~30-35%, whereas Sludge Bombs from no Sp. Atk Roserade does at least 60-70% to LO Shaymin, and even Defensive Shaymins are 3HKOed at worst, and Roserade can stall that out with Synthesis, barring hax.
Yeah. Hence, why so many serious competitors in the most recent Smogon tour were packing defensive Roserade as opposed to offensive: because Shaymin's not a sweeper at heart. It can just get away with it in UU because offense is so heavily emphasized by the few Pokemon that CAN stop it. Example: Dodrio beats the fuck out of Shaymin with Drill Peck. However, it can't come in on SR Seed Flare, especially running 252/252 offense.
Also, I don't know why SR existing happens to keep Moltres and Articuno from being viable Shaymin counters. I use them just fine to shut it down. It's really not that hard to keep Rapid Spinning, especially since Foresight Hitmontop exists and you can whale on the setup Pokemon with Close Combat/Flamethrower/Leaf Storm/whatever your team has.
Also, I don't know why SR existing happens to keep Moltres and Articuno from being viable Shaymin counters. I use them just fine to shut it down. It's really not that hard to keep Rapid Spinning, especially since Foresight Hitmontop exists and you can whale on the setup Pokemon with Close Combat/Flamethrower/Leaf Storm/whatever your team has.
Yeah. I've just been playing with Venusaur for a bit to see if his bulk fits my team better.
He was? *goes back to check* Oh shoot, my bad!
Foresight isn't necessary on Rapid Spin Hitmontop. I use Bulky Hitmontop without Foresight, and I still find it easy to Rapid Spin.
Never Rapid Spin right away. Scout for their ghost type with Rock Slide (my set), and if they don't bring in one, you can feel safe and Rapid Spin. If they do bring a Ghost, your next move will depend on the Ghost itself. Stay away from Spiritomb, who is the only Ghost that requires Foresight to beat, 1-on-1. Mismagius can be destroyed with Rock Slide and Sucker Punch, but beware of Will-o-Wisp. And Drifblim, the only other ghost worth mentioning, has never carried WoW, in my experience, so treat it like a bulkier, but weaker (offensively), Mismagius.
Well, if spinning is a top priority for you (which it is if your using Foresight Top) then his entire set is/ should be specialized. Pursuit breaks down Mismaggy and Foresight (Insert Fighting Move) beats Spiritomb. If you can kill them first.. Great finish Tops job by spinning. If success of beating them is low Spin and switch to an effective counter to both of them... Drapion.
A defensive Venasaur is a good Shaymin counter. Shaymin needs a Special defense drop and some flinch hax with Air Slash to walk away from that encounter on top. Obviously if you get the drop you can switch to an ice/flying resist and then pop back in. When I tried out Venasaur on a team, I had pretty much no Shaymin troubles. The other pokemon that pretty much walls Shaymin is Moltres, but obviously you need exceptional spin support to wall a faster Shaymin with Moltres. Still, I had a team with said Moltres and support and it went very well.
I feel like this will happen a maximum of one time per battle against a good player. It certainly helps, but I wouldn't call it owning the shit out of it.
No lie. There isn't really anything that can handle the Fire Punch except for said Waters, and TPunch knocks them over. Bellyzard is near impossible to set up, though. And Priority messes it up. Overall, it's like BP chains in OU: nice gimmick, will almost always win if it gets pulled off, but not really worth the effort over time.
Assuming Zard's Sub is broken on the turn it subs, or by a survived/priority move, Azumarill, a common threat, easily comes in and pwns it. However, with the recent drop in Zuzu lately, this may not be as much of a problem. In fact, basically any priority could pwn Zard. Consider this: Belly Drum on the switch, get your Sub broken as Salac kicks in, kill the threat, then get pwned. Consequently, Azumarill could come in as Zard BDs/Subs, break the Sub next turn, and kill after that, or if it does not Sub right away, bye-bye Zard.
I would suggest something like BaitLix to scout for Azumarill, or something else that brings in Azumarill, and other possible counters.
ThunderPunch would really work in this environment, but without EQ, stuff like Regirock and Quagsire can also end your sweep early. The point is, BellyZard simply can't cover everything while keeping the Sub, and may gain coverage, but at the risk of lack of protection w/o it.
I would suggest something like BaitLix to scout for Azumarill, or something else that brings in Azumarill, and other possible counters.
ThunderPunch would really work in this environment, but without EQ, stuff like Regirock and Quagsire can also end your sweep early. The point is, BellyZard simply can't cover everything while keeping the Sub, and may gain coverage, but at the risk of lack of protection w/o it.
As far as coverage goes, I noticed Charizard gets Outrage. But then it has the problem of being locked into a move, so you'd have to get rid of your opponent's steel type.
And yes, I noticed priority kills Bellyzard. It sweeps teams when pulled off, but tends to fail horribly when it's not.
And yes, I noticed priority kills Bellyzard. It sweeps teams when pulled off, but tends to fail horribly when it's not.
I'm a little sad that Porygon2 hasn't been used much lately...
Is anyone else running a Trick Room team? I haven't battled any since New UU began....
Is anyone else running a Trick Room team? I haven't battled any since New UU began....
I used to run Trick Room, but now with no Crobats to set up on, P-2 is difficult to use as a lead. Not mentioning that there are a few Scarf Makeys running around here and there. The prescense of Azumarill also makes running Trick Room very difficult. But it is still a very fun team effect to use.
I have a question. Are we allowed to nominate new suspects from UU? It seems as if Shaymin and others have taken over in UU, and bulky waters and Clefable are much more of a probelm now, so that they might actually fit the defensive defination. Are we going to revulate UU and add new suspects or are the (at most 6) the only BLs from now on?
The process is iterative until the results are stable, within reason, (i.e. no one Pokemon receives enough support to be considered a suspect). So, yes, more suspects can be nominated down the road. First we have to figure out these 6 though x)
Bulky waters are problematic? Shaymin keeps them in check. Shaymin is a must on this metagame. Without Shaymin bulky waters are really difficult to take down. The difference between Roserade and Shaymin is that Roserade has access to sleep moves but it doesn't have the bulk like Shaymin does and an appropriate recovery move (Rest, Synthesis) Rest on Roserade is decent - but Shaymin could do a better job. I do agree to an extent that bulky waters are a pain to take down especially Sleep Talk Milotic. If you don't have Shaymin or an appropriate grass type it's not looking good. I'm probably missing Gallade right now to damage some of these bulky waters not named Slowbro
So after finally jumping into UU a week ago, I have to say, the variety in this tier makes UU really interesting. Even though UU tends to lean more defensive, it makes for more interesting games because they are not as fast paced as OU, giving players more breathing room to formulate strategies at any point of the match. This is all probably because it's still pretty early. Amazing to see hardly any dragons/steels.
People are saying Shaymin may be a bit too much for UU to handle. I use Shaymin, and it always pulls off the most kills rather easily. Base 100 stats make it quite the fast powerhouse with lots of bulk. However, I don't really have any problems with opposing ones even though I don't have a very dedicated counter like Registeel, Regice, or various Grass/Poisons. Excellent poke all around with a lot of it's counters becoming suspect, predicting Shaymin to be #1 in March.
It's hard to say which suspects will be healthful for UU because I never played clusterfuck UU, so I really can't say if unbanning any of the suspects would be good for the metagame to keep Shaymin in line.
Weather teams are very fun without Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Many teams are unprepared for Sunny Day, whereas with Rain Dance it's pretty easy to pack something like Toxicroak or Quagsire and stall out the rain. No weather teams have really been dominating. Balanced teams are probably the most common. It feels a bit like Advance.
I'm having trouble finding a good Moltres/Charizard counter...
People are saying Shaymin may be a bit too much for UU to handle. I use Shaymin, and it always pulls off the most kills rather easily. Base 100 stats make it quite the fast powerhouse with lots of bulk. However, I don't really have any problems with opposing ones even though I don't have a very dedicated counter like Registeel, Regice, or various Grass/Poisons. Excellent poke all around with a lot of it's counters becoming suspect, predicting Shaymin to be #1 in March.
It's hard to say which suspects will be healthful for UU because I never played clusterfuck UU, so I really can't say if unbanning any of the suspects would be good for the metagame to keep Shaymin in line.
Weather teams are very fun without Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Many teams are unprepared for Sunny Day, whereas with Rain Dance it's pretty easy to pack something like Toxicroak or Quagsire and stall out the rain. No weather teams have really been dominating. Balanced teams are probably the most common. It feels a bit like Advance.
I'm having trouble finding a good Moltres/Charizard counter...
A good Moltres counter is Stealth Rock. Milotic and other bulky waters can handle it, too. Charizard is about the same way. As I've discovered myself, Milotic can take a +6 EQ from Charizard, and Slowbro can even take a +6 Tpunch at full health.
If Shaymin is a problem, then I don't think going on a banning spree of Shaymin and bulky waters is a good idea. Rather, we should bring down Shaymin's old nemesis Crobat, whose banning seemed unnecessary anyways.
If Shaymin is a problem, then I don't think going on a banning spree of Shaymin and bulky waters is a good idea. Rather, we should bring down Shaymin's old nemesis Crobat, whose banning seemed unnecessary anyways.
Many say "Let's bring back Shaymin to keep Crobat in line." What then will keep Crobat in line? Raikou? And what will keep that in line? Another suspect? Where do we stop? How many limits do we put on the metagame by imposing such powerful pokemon upon it?
oooh i know what'll keep crobat in line! all the steel types that completely wall it! honestly crobat isn't difficult to deal with. so what if it throws out a rain dance or a sunny day? plenty of other shit can do that anyway. so what if it can do that, then come back later, roost off the damage and then do it again? beating rain dance and sunny day teams isn't about fainting the setup pokemon, it's about taking out the 3 or 4 sweepers before they take out your team.
What will keep Crobat in line? Crobat can already be kept in line. Any special wall can handle the Nasty Plot sweeper, and a Banded Crobat has no more danger than Toxic Orb Swellow. The fastest Taunt in the game is all well and good, but the only thing it can set up in that time is weather. Besides, there aren't many Taunt-worthy things between 130 base and 115 base (Ambipom, Misdreavus), and it has to be in on a pokemon before it can Taunt it. SR weakness doesn't help it any, and Roost leaves it vulnerable to the ever-common EQ.
You have just outlined what I worry about. When I mean "keep it in line" I mean, what will stop it from completing it's task as a pokemon. What is it's main task? Taunt. Crobat doesn't care about Steels, that's why it utilizes U-Turn. It's main goal is to Taunt and my problem is that it is "too successful" at almost always pulling it off. We have a huge selection of pokemon here in UU, and I have a feeling that Crobat would rather limit the selection of leads, even more so than Electrode does now. Indeed, you will notice that many leads now days run Scarf, and also use something that will disable Electrode. Are we going to make it even worse by bringing in Crobat? And Jabba, the Sunny Day and Rain Dance ARE the problems, it's not like in Trick Room, where you have a negative priority move to stop and most likely a switch to a sweeper. Sunny Day and Rain Dance can be utilized immediately, and the pokemon that take advantage of them are very, very powerful. So what if other things can do it if Crobat does it as one of the best, if not the best.
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